View Full Version : KNS anti-walk pin question
I just installed KNS anti-walk pins on a LMT lower and after I tightened everything down there was side to side play of approx 1/16". Is this normal or did I buy the wrong ones? Thanks!
Gunfighter.45
05-27-08, 23:58
I just installed KNS anti-walk pins on a LMT lower and after I tightened everything down there was side to side play of approx 1/16". Is this normal or did I buy the wrong ones? Thanks!
That happened to me with my Sun Devil lower. No problems as of yet. What trigger group do have? Because come to think about it, it didn't do that to me until I installed a Timney drop in system.
aren't there different sizes for the KNS pins?
Gunfighter.45
05-28-08, 00:27
aren't there different sizes for the KNS pins?
Yes... .154,.155,.170 The last size is for Colt.
That happened to me with my Sun Devil lower. No problems as of yet. What trigger group do have? Because come to think about it, it didn't do that to me until I installed a Timney drop in system.
Did you tighten down the allen screws when you installed it?
Gunfighter.45
05-28-08, 07:45
Did you tighten down the allen screws when you installed it?
Yes I did, the movement from side to side is ever so slight. The funny thing is it didn't do that until I installed the Timney in. On my 6920 their perfect and on my Noveske GTG. It might be the Sun Devil is little out spec,but like said no worries it shoots great and trigger pull is awsome.
Stock/OEM pins work fine.
Why change? :confused:
I am using the GenII pins on Stag lowers. There is a slight bit of lateral play. I'm sure the pins were designed to accomodate the tolerances allowed in lower width.
Stock/OEM pins work fine.
Why change? :confused:
Not again?!:rolleyes: Why use 4150 steel on a barrel? Why worry about staking the carrier key? Why concern yourself with utilizing a MP tested bolt? The KNS pins are a reliability enhancement. Nothing more, nothing less. Although, I will admit their polished surface does improve trigger pull somewhat.
They are tight, I assume the different sizes have to do with the diameter of the pins not the width of the lowers.
I guess the LMT lower is out of spec
I sincerely doubt the LMT lower is out of spec. The KNS pins have to be designed to account for tolerances on the width of the lowers, therefore the pins are slightly longer than most lowers are wide. The pins will prevent walking regardless of the very slight lateral play that may occur.
Not again?!:rolleyes:
Your call; your cash....
There are millions of AR/M-16's out there with stock pins that run fine.
I understand that we want our wepons to be reliable but I don't think that fire control group pins are an issue. What happens, as in the post above, is someone replaces good parts with feel good parts and all of a sudden they think that their whole lower is out of spec. :eek:
And yes the items you listed should be right from the get-go; of course we know that is not always true for most weapons. I replaced the whole BCG on my BM with an LMT unit as I don't trust unmakred "MPI" parts.
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There are millions of AR/M-16's out there with stock pins that run fine.
And that same amount run fine without 4150 steel barrels, properly staked carrier keys, and MPI'd bolts.
I understand that we want our wepons to be reliable but I don't think that fire control group pins are an issue.
They were/are and that is why KNS developed the pins. Is it a frequent issue? No. But neither is 4140 barrel steel melting, so why the desire for 4150 steel?
What happens, as in the post above, is someone replaces good parts with feel good parts and all of a sudden they think that their whole lower is out of spec.
Then they need schooled. And the KNS pins are no more feel good than is an MPI'd bolt or 4150 barrel steel. They serve a function. Just because you don't believe it's necessary, doesn't invalidate the function.
And yes the items you listed should be right from the get-go;
Why? The list of "specs" on "The Chart" are in no way required to get an AR to put lead downrange. They may be required to insure you have the most reliable weapon possible, but they certainly aren't required just to get the weapon to function.
All good but the subject was pins.
There is no good reason to replace the stock pins. (unless they are broken or your putting in new fire control parts)
As for the other stuff sure. If your gun is out of spec do what you need to get it up there. As a BM owner I had to swap out some stock parts to ensure top quality and I felt justified in doing that just as you feel justified swapping your pins.
I think we can agree to dissagree. :D
And that same amount run fine without 4150 steel barrels, properly staked carrier keys, and MPI'd bolts.
These are not valid comparisons in my opinion. Those 3 characteristics are requirements in the TDP. They are specifications intended to ensure function and quality in a military weapon. KNS pins are most certainly not.
Look at some of the other items KNS sells. Cross hair front sight posts? :rolleyes:
Seriously though can we try to not have this same discussion in every thread that references KNS pins?
Azrael2004
05-28-08, 18:47
I installed the GenII pins in both the 9mm and 5.56 SBR lowers I have.
Reason, the 9mm bounced out a trigger pin once and to help ensure the longevity of the lowers it's a small price.
Both of mine have play at the hammer pin but not at the trigger pin. It appears they make the hammer pin a tad long for whatever reason. It's not going anywhere though.
My non-SBR lower just has standard pins.
To the OP, I have GenII KNS pins in 2 Colt lowers and 2 Noveske lowers, there is a slight amount of play side to side on all 4.
And to all the annoying BS, I don't care what you think, I don't care what you use, I know why I use what I use. We don't have to agree. Get over it.
Those 3 characteristics are requirements in the TDP. They are specifications intended to ensure function and quality in a military weapon.
Yup, I agree.
KNS pins are most certainly not.
I disagree. KNS pins are most certainly intended to ensure function and quality.
I'm not sure what KNS did to piss off so many folks, but I guess that's just how it is. Reliability enhancements seem to only be worthwhile if they don't come from KNS.
I have 2 lowers using them right now...soon to be 3. Right now my RRA and 6920 lower both have lateral play in them...slight amount that shouldn't matter.
About the KNS Controversy; until someone can provide me with solid technical evidence on why they are a waste, I'll continue to trust them in my guns.
"Their not part of the TDP" is an uneducated answer...Isn't there a TDP for the M9 Service Pistol?...I don't see anyone arguing about M9 parts.
militarymoron
05-29-08, 10:09
the TDP goes out the door if you're not using the stock trigger components, and with more aftermarket triggers becoming available, the extra 'security' that KNS pins can provide peace of mind.
drop-in modules like the timney and mcormick don't rely on spring tension to retain them, and for me at least, i feel that KNS pins are better than using the stock pins with the timney or the c-clips supplied with the mcormick.
some other aftermarket trigger groups which utilize the stock pins have reduced power hammer springs, which *might* not retain the stock pin as well as the stock spring.
jsta5.56shooter
05-30-08, 11:30
KNS pins keep the holes from getting bigger. That is the problem with rotating STEEL pins in an ALUMINUM receiver. when the pins dont waller,the hole dont grow. its that simple. i have talked to guys that had to replace trigger groups and even lower receivers for this reason. i dont know about the rest of you guys but i dont ever want to HAVE to replace a lower.:rolleyes:
Show proof that they are a reliability enhancement. Show a picture of a gun you own with the pin holes to large because the trigger and hammer pins rotated. I have a lower with about 30K shot on it with various uppers and the trigger and hammer pins are absolutely fine. Yes the pins rotate, but think of it this way, if you stop the pins from rotating the force that causes the rotation does not disappear, you can't eliminate energy. Those forces will be put on the springs and lower receiver pin holes except they will be imparted laterally on the lower, which instead of spreading those forces evenly around the pin holes they would be imparted on two spots directly opposite each-other which would cause erosion faster and in an egg hole shape.. The AR was not designed with KNS pins in mind.
The AR was not designed with KNS pins in mind.
And it was designed with a 7" gas system in mind? Your credibility went to zero.
The KNS pins are designed to prevent the pins from walking laterally. They do that and it isn't rocket science to see it.
What is it that KNS did to piss you all off so much? I've never seen so much bias against or for anything on these boards, unless it was Colt. And then, at least, there was some type of empirical data to support the bias.
And it was designed with a 7" gas system in mind? Your credibility went to zero.
The KNS pins are designed to prevent the pins from walking laterally. They do that and it isn't rocket science to see it.
What is it that KNS did to piss you all off so much? I've never seen so much bias against or for anything on these boards, unless it was Colt. And then, at least, there was some type of empirical data to support the bias.
I never said it was designed with a 7" gas system in mind, and by laterally i meant I don't mean walking them out laterally rather forward and backward laterally in the receiver.
KNS never pissed me off they have a right to market a product however they like, just like I have a right to say their product is crap and is not an enhancement in any way. You can use them all you want the only reason I stated my opinion in this thread was because it was stated as fact that it was an enhancement and there has not been any testing or proof whatsoever that they are. So it is just an opinion that they are an enhancement not fact.
I never said it was designed with a 7" gas system in mind,
By your own logic then, we shouldn't be using a 7" gas system because the AR wasn't "designed" for it.
and by laterally i meant I don't mean walking them out laterally rather forward and backward laterally in the receiver.
KNS never pissed me off they have a right to market a product however they like, just like I have a right to say their product is crap and is not an enhancement in any way. You can use them all you want the only reason I stated my opinion in this thread was because it was stated as fact that it was an enhancement and there has not been any testing or proof whatsoever that they are. So it is just an opinion that they are an enhancement not fact.
They enhance the reliability of the AR-15 by preventing the hammer and trigger pins from moving laterally to a point where they would inhibit the function of the FCG. That is a demonstrated fact and the only claim that KNS makes on their function. Insulting the intelligence of respected members who use them (such as USMC03 and C4Igrant) isn't making your case. I respect your choice not to use them, but it doesn't make them crap. However, your opinion may be running dangerously close to that point.
M4C is treading very close to arfcom territory. How sad.
militarymoron
05-30-08, 16:07
Those forces will be put on the springs and lower receiver pin holes except they will be imparted laterally on the lower, which instead of spreading those forces evenly around the pin holes they would be imparted on two spots directly opposite each-other which would cause erosion faster and in an egg hole shape.
that's not really true. the forces the pins impart to the receiver don't change whether they're stationary or rotating. they're still basically in the same direction and magnitude. moving pins don't impart the forces evenly around the pin holes any more than stationary ones do.
the difference is in which component is moving against the other. with standard pins, they're free to rotate and cause wear by friction (steel pin on hard anodized aluminum receiver). with the fixed pins, there's no motion between the pin and the receiver - just a pretty constant force. the movement is between the steel pin and the fire control components like the trigger and hammer - all steel. that's why when we file metal, we move the file back and forth. we don't press it hard against whatever we're trying to file, and not move it. movement between two surfaces = erosion.
(note that i don't think that receiver wear is an issue for most users - pins walking out laterally from aftermarket trigger groups is probably the greater justification for KNS pins IMHO. in that case, i see them as more of a preventative measure than 'enhancement'. kind of like gas block pins vs. set screws.) just my .02.
I guess let's agree to disagree. I certainly did not mean to insult anyone and if I did then I sincerely apologize for that.
rmecapn, I never took at shot at you personally I was just stating my opinion on a product, your first response to what I said is "my credibility went to zero" then you said my opinion was dangerously close to being crap. I never said anything about you personally. So if this subject means that much to you then let's just forget about it and move on. The OP wanted to know if it was OK if they moved a bit laterally and he got his answer.
Do Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and Pat Rogers use KNS pins?
I got them 'cuz they look cool !!!
Also someone who regularly contributes to this site recommended them to me
I got them 'cuz they look cool !!!
I'm down with that. Two out of my five lowers wear the Gen1 pins.;)
Azrael2004
06-06-08, 06:07
Do Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and Pat Rogers use KNS pins?
Do they wear boxers or briefs?
Search this forum for other posts/threads and you'll find a multitude of discussion on these pins. I like them and that's were my discussion will end. Sort through the various opinions, think this through and choose based on the intended purpose and function.
The question remains, do Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn and Pat Rogers use KNS pins? What is more valuable--what someone states on this internet forum or what the most highly regarded professionals actually do?
From what I have seen, they do not use KNS pins. Perhaps they feel that any advantages are outweighed by the added complexity and potential for failure imposed by the addition of extra threaded parts.
I feel that threaded parts are a common area for failure on firearms and should be minimized at all costs when possible.
Two cents on this:
I personally have no emotional attachment to this issue. I personally cannot justify the cost of KNS pins when the OEM pins seem to work just fine.
However....
The TM does have a check for pins that walk. PS Monthly (the Army's monthly maintenance journal) does run articles this topic from time to time. Clearly, in the field, on Army service rifles (that have been in service for decades) this is an issue. In my personal experience it is a very rare problem. In most cases it caused by users who routinely remove their own FCG to better clean the lower.
Now, while I can't justify them (for me) on a regular Title I gun, if I owned an expensive transferable full auto gun I would think it would be a mandatory investment.
toddackerman
06-08-08, 09:52
Show proof that they are a reliability enhancement. Show a picture of a gun you own with the pin holes to large because the trigger and hammer pins rotated. I have a lower with about 30K shot on it with various uppers and the trigger and hammer pins are absolutely fine. Yes the pins rotate, but think of it this way, if you stop the pins from rotating the force that causes the rotation does not disappear, you can't eliminate energy. Those forces will be put on the springs and lower receiver pin holes except they will be imparted laterally on the lower, which instead of spreading those forces evenly around the pin holes they would be imparted on two spots directly opposite each-other which would cause erosion faster and in an egg hole shape.. The AR was not designed with KNS pins in mind.
There are many "Original Designs" that weren't designed for an improvement. How many after market gizmo's are there for an AR and a 1911? How about Magazine improvements in the last 5 years?
The only proof I needed was when my "In Spec" lower had the trigger pin walk out and lock up the entire FCG.
The topic is about "Anti-Walk" pins and their need. There are plenty of testimonials on this forum from folks who have had at least one issue with this. And on a serious fighting weapon...once is enough. The KNS pins are insurance. In addition, they seem to have tighter tolerances which WILL add to less wear on the holes.
There are many "Original Designs" that weren't designed for an improvement. How many after market gizmo's are there for an AR and a 1911? How about Magazine improvements in the last 5 years?
The only proof I needed was when my "In Spec" lower had the trigger pin walk out and lock up the entire FCG.
The topic is about "Anti-Walk" pins and their need. There are plenty of testimonials on this forum from folks who have had at least one issue with this. And on a serious fighting weapon...once is enough. The KNS pins are insurance. In addition, they seem to have tighter tolerances which WILL add to less wear on the holes.
I bought a set and put them in a rifle. I'll see for myself if they are worth it or not. To me it seemed as a solution to a problem that didn't exist. I have never seen first hand a pin walk out. I have lowers were the pins were noticably looser after a few years of use and trigger changes etc. but have never had one walk out.
I believe it KNS is definitely a reliability enhancement needed on most ARs. I had pins walking on me on one particular AR. Put the pins in as a recommendation from a friend. Not looking back.
Bought Gen I and II pins
No more ARs without them
my brother had a trigger pin walk out on his factory RRA, and dump the mag FA.
after the latest prosecution for a "malfunctioning" firearm, i think my $30 expenditure on KNS pins is justified.
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