View Full Version : Coworker bought an Adam's Piston AR
Devildawg2531
04-05-14, 09:51
Friend of mine at work who I do some IDPA and steel shoots and he is wanting to get into 3 gun. He has an AK and I told him he would be better served with an AR for 3 gun. So he tell's me last week that he had got his AR and that it was an Adam's piston AR. I asked why he got a piston gun he said he had done the research and that it would be cleaner, more reliable and that it was what all gun designs were heading towards. I asked if he planned on running a SBR or supressed or planned to be in firefights of several thousand rounds fired at a time (NO to all 3). I told him that he gained more recoil, less accuracy and non standard parts with his piston gun. I asked him why he didn't ask me about the gun before he bought and he said he had done research. Told him that I carried an M16A2 for 7 years and I have owned a BCM and Daniel Defense AR for several years with lots of rounds down range without a single issue. I mentioned the military has been using DI for 40+ years after moving from a piston design in the M14.
I know there has been lot's of discussion in the past on piston vs DI and don't want to beat a dead horse. I'm far from a SME on DI but do have years of exerience with the A2 and Ar's. Find it kind of frustrating when you feel like you could help somebody make a better choice before they spend $. So our 1st 3 gun when my DD runs 100% and IF his piston gun is problematic is it OK to say well I told you so....
RearwardAssist
04-05-14, 10:01
I know exactly what you mean. I had a very similar situation but my friend asked me for my advice. I explained why I thought the piston was not what he needed and he went ahead and bought it anyways. Sometimes people just do what they want to do. And yes a I told you so will come out of my mouth when the opportunity presents itself.
I have a number of friends should shoot Huldra in a variety of venues, including 3-gun. Huldra is an Adams Arms piston gun with some proprietary modifications. Great firearm, works well for 3-gun according to them.
F-Trooper05
04-05-14, 10:08
Sometimes I think we get too wrapped up in what other people buy. Who cares if it has issues? I'm having some major issues with a DI gun right now from a well respected manufacturer that's been sent back for repair twice. If a piston owner told me at a 3-gun match "I told you so" I'd probably take a swing at 'em.
Our world would be pretty boring if everyone used the same things... I'm not a fan of a piston AR (save for the PWS) for anything, but if someone wants to rock one, let em. Some folks have to learn by doing.
RearwardAssist
04-05-14, 10:51
Sometimes I think we get too wrapped up in what other people buy. Who cares if it has issues? I'm having some major issues with a DI gun right now from a well respected manufacturer that's been sent back for repair twice. If a piston owner told me at a 3-gun match "I told you so" I'd probably take a swing at 'em. I'm not talking about giving some random person shit about the weapon not running I'm talking about busting a buddy's balls a little.
I'm not talking about giving some random person shit about the weapon not running I'm talking about busting a buddy's balls a little.
As long as we accept the very real possibility that he can bust ours right back when our DI gun fails and his piston keeps running. Not a rare occurrence in my experience. For my part, I'm know I'm not necessarily smarter about firearms than some of my piston gun buddies.
Devildawg2531
04-05-14, 11:28
I'm not talking about giving some random person shit about the weapon not running I'm talking about busting a buddy's balls a little.
Yeah this would definetely be giving a buddy some friendly crap for his choice. I've been to shoots with folks who were having all kinds of problems with jammomatic garbage but I don't give unsolicited advice to folks I don't really know. It's hard not to come off as an A..Hole so I just keep my mouth shut and rock on. Now with a buddy it's a different story - fair game.
Sometimes I think we get too wrapped up in what other people buy...
But how else will people know how smart we are?
richiecotite
04-05-14, 11:38
If y'all are buds, then some lighthearted ribbing is due IF his gun has issues.
Could have been worse, he could have bought an Oly or DPMS.
Plus, if I was a betting man, I would bet he'll have a DI AR in the next 18 months
Be the better man. IF his AR gives him problems, offer to let him use your AR for the next match. He should be able to come up with his own conclusions. If he doesn't have problems, good for him and all is well. Like "richiecotite" said, if he really gets into the AR platform, he'll have a few more in the future! :D
But how else will people know how smart we are?
You keep them guessing.:dirol: I own both ("name brand") DI and Piston AR's along with the different models of them. I'm a shooter collector and really haven't really had trouble with any of them.:).
I told him that he gained more recoil, less accuracy
Both incorrect.
How do you quanitfy the first, and how do you attribute the second to the operating mechanism of the gun?
If the gun is heavier due to the addition of a piston, this results in LESS recoil energy. If the piston system changes the amount of gas entering the system and used to cycle the action rod, thereby increasing the velocity of the reciprocating parts of the gun, felt recoil, ie how recoil is perceived by the shooter, can change. Recoil, Conservation of momentum as per physics, is not affected by this.
With regards to accuracy, how does the piston and rod affect accuracy? Seeing as the bullet is out of the muzzle before the piston moves to the rear. Or do piston guns unlock with the projectile still in the barrel? If accuracy is poor, it can be due to a poorly manufactured barrel or bad crown specific to a brand, but does not automatically apply just because it is a piston gun.
In my opinion, shooter ability plays a much bigger role in recoil control and accuracy, than hardware or design, with the AR platform in 5.56.
As long as we accept the very real possibility that he can bust ours right back when our DI gun fails and his piston keeps running. Not a rare occurrence in my experience. For my part, I'm know I'm not necessarily smarter about firearms than some of my piston gun buddies.
Same way me and my Dove hunting buddy bust each other on our choice of shotguns, Beretta and Browning.
Good friendly banter.
Even though he took another Browning after his first one blew up in his hands. :suicide:
Tzintzuntzan
04-05-14, 14:00
Adams Arms is one of the few companies that doesn't make a piston AR that is a worthless hunk of shit. If you knew about Adams Arms then you would know that he made an okay choice. It's not my first choice for a piston gun but it is a hell of a lot better than you seem to expect it to be. Unless of course he got one that doesn't have a pinned gas block but I think they stopped making those. Accuracy has more to do with the shooter, barrel quality, and ammo quality if you ask me.
I've used the AR platform since 1978 when I went in the Army, and have a nice collection of Colts and one LMT. The DI system has been just fine for me, but I have always been interested in how clean the piston system seems to operate. At least that is what I have read. Never shot a piston AR but I would like to check one out for 200-500 rounds and see if it's worth the extra cost.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
04-05-14, 16:03
I will have to agree with Arctic1 on this one. I have 5 gas rod rifles and 2 piston rifles. The gas rods are a DD,Colt,CMMG,RRA & S&W. All function great. My piston rifles are an HK and a Sig and also function great. The Hk is second only to the 24" RRA Varmint in accuracy. The recoil is different on both piston rifles, but has very little muzzle rise. I prefer the "straight back" push of the piston rifles. The Sig 516 has one of the lightest pulls to cock and weighs in a just a 1/4 or so of a pound heavier than my 6920. Both types of rifles have advantages and disadvantages, I honestly think if someone buys either, I will support them and hope it serves their needs. I hope your buddy's rifle lasts a lifetime.
At least he didn't ask your advise then go ahead and do what he wanted to like my kids do me!
DI vs. Piston and advice not heeded, etc... As Red Jacket would say "N'ver Been Done Befo". One thing I always tell people to keep in the back of their minds. Anything like a piston AR or whatever that makes use of proprietary components has the potential of going under/ weapons ban, etc.. and then you will be hostage to the prices for whatever parts are on the market.
BTDT and it's frustrating to be sure. Similar to how I approach fitness/health topics, I don't tend to offer any advice unless asked specifically. That avoids a lot of frustration I have found. I'm not expert on ARs, but I have taken the time to STFU and listen to those who are, and at least know where to send people who ask to the resources (M4C, etc) to get them the best intel.
Once they start to experience problems, you can say "gee, that sucks" with all known smile. :cool:
I find this type of thing happens most with those guns, such as ARs and 1911s, where to the glance, they look essentially the same.
Both incorrect.
How do you quanitfy the first, and how do you attribute the second to the operating mechanism of the gun?
If the gun is heavier due to the addition of a piston, this results in LESS recoil energy. If the piston system changes the amount of gas entering the system and used to cycle the action rod, thereby increasing the velocity of the reciprocating parts of the gun, felt recoil, ie how recoil is perceived by the shooter, can change. Recoil, Conservation of momentum as per physics, is not affected by this.
With regards to accuracy, how does the piston and rod affect accuracy? Seeing as the bullet is out of the muzzle before the piston moves to the rear. Or do piston guns unlock with the projectile still in the barrel? If accuracy is poor, it can be due to a poorly manufactured barrel or bad crown specific to a brand, but does not automatically apply just because it is a piston gun.
In my opinion, shooter ability plays a much bigger role in recoil control and accuracy, than hardware or design, with the AR platform in 5.56.
I agree shooter ability plays a big role. A lot also has to do with the barrel length,twist,grooves,bullet weight and powder charge. Learned this over many years of reloading. Recoil and weight of the weapon go a long way too.
SanDiegoLMT
04-05-14, 17:48
I guess I'll be one of the few who actually likes the idea and concept of piston guns. While I don't presently own any piston guns, I have owned an LWRC upper along with a few different AA piston kits and I really like them. Are the necessary for what I do? No, but I do feel more comfortable using steel cased ammo than I would in a DI gun. Ironically both of my current uppers are DI guns.
I asked him why he didn't ask me about the gun before he bought and he said he had done research.
At the end of the day you can't save people from themselves. I've had three guys ask me for input on buying an AR. I told all three to start with a 6920, and two of the three did. The other was originally obsessed with buying a piston, so I visited a gun shop with him and put a 6920 in his hands and at that point he seemed to "get it." Long story short, he ignored all advice and ended up buying a DI frankengun that blew up in his face on his first outing to the range with it -- luckily he wasn't injured.
DI vs. Piston and advice not heeded, etc... As Red Jacket would say "N'ver Been Done Befo". One thing I always tell people to keep in the back of their minds. Anything like a piston AR or whatever that makes use of proprietary components has the potential of going under/ weapons ban, etc.. and then you will be hostage to the prices for whatever parts are on the market.
That's why I have always kept extra parts on hand,keep well stocked and stick with known quality and reliable weapons. Out here in the "Boondocks" part orders can be days,weeks away and my LGS is a 2 hour round trip. :)
I guess I'll be one of the few who actually likes the idea and concept of piston guns. While I don't presently own any piston guns, I have owned an LWRC upper along with a few different AA piston kits and I really like them. Are the necessary for what I do? No, but I do feel more comfortable using steel cased ammo than I would in a DI gun. Ironically both of my current uppers are DI guns.
I've never been one to walk around with blinders on and be a "Fanboy" of anything in particular. I like my S&W M&P,s (handguns and MSR's) I also have a fair number of Colts,Ruger's,Remington's and a few other High end weapons in my collection. I have found nothing wrong with the piston driven MSR's (AR's) and have also moved up to the MSR's in 308. Not much standard/compatable getting into the 308 MSR's (my standard is they (308) can use the same PMag-Magpul mags. Anyway,I do enjoy the piston driven weapons and think we will be seeing more people adding them (not replacing DI's) as time goes on. "Most" of the people I have asked about them,have never even held one let alone shot one. It's always been "Well it's what I was told or read about them" is why I don't like them. :confused:
Reminds me of the term "Askhole", they ask for your thoughts and go there own way anyway.
I too find my myself limiting the advice I offer to people who seem to actually be willing ask for it...what they do with it after that is their business.
As for AA...I do not own one, or any piston for that matter, but I have toured their plant here in FL, and I have participated in a T&E of one of their uppers. They certainly seem to me to a quality operation making quality products and I don't think I would be upset with someone for buying one of their rifles. Now they could have been lying to me, but from what I was told, their return rate is extremely small, and they said about half of what is returned wasn't working properly due to user error, things like wrong buffer weight, etc.
DMViergever
04-06-14, 09:58
All your piston hate aside Adams Arms stuff is good to go. I have 3 AA uppers, one of has been being ran for about the last 4 years and has around 7k through it...no issues. If you are buying a piston gun AA is a good choice.
Reminds me of the term "Askhole", they ask for your thoughts and go there own way anyway.
Often because we are unable to provide a compelling supporting argument. Just because we don't convince them doesn't mean that they're stupid. It might mean that we are wrong.
The product of my research when I wanted to buy my first AR (post deployment, so I had money to burn) was an LWRC. It shoots great, and I've taken it to some courses and a competition or two, but my God is it heavy... the thing is an absolute boat anchor compared to my DI gun.
Often because we are unable to provide a compelling supporting argument. Just because we don't convince them doesn't mean that they're stupid. It might mean that we are wrong.
I was just referring to the term, not calling his friend anything. But when one asks someone experienced their opinions on anything, hear the information, then go a totally different route, it can be frustrating. Then you're thinking, why did you even ask for my help if you're not going to take my advice, then possibly hear them complain about their decision later.
I've dealt with it a few times.
The product of my research when I wanted to buy my first AR (post deployment, so I had money to burn) was an LWRC. It shoots great, and I've taken it to some courses and a competition or two, but my God is it heavy... the thing is an absolute boat anchor compared to my DI gun.
I've had an Adams Arms Full Upper, and yeah it looked bad ass, and it was a great upper, but after a bit, it was pretty heavy to lug around.
I was just referring to the term, not calling his friend anything. But when one asks someone experienced their opinions on anything, hear the information, then go a totally different route, it can be frustrating. Then you're thinking, why did you even ask for my help if you're not going to take my advice, then possibly hear them complain about their decision later.
I've dealt with it a few times.
Just because they don't follow your advice, they don't value your opinion?
I get it though......We all get our egos wrapped up in the advice we give, I guess.
Is your friend having fun? Is his new toy working as advertised? Did he spend his money and not yours?
If yes on all counts you're the only person that seems to have a problem here.
wetidlerjr
04-06-14, 17:37
Is your friend having fun? Is his new toy working as advertised? Did he spend his money and not yours?
If yes on all counts you're the only person that seems to have a problem here.
Caring about a friend is not a problem. It's called "friendship".
Caring about a friend is not a problem. It's called "friendship".
Friendship and caring is pulling a buddy out of a burning car.
Poopooing on someone else's purchase after the fact when they aren't actually having an issue is just being a pain in the ass.
Operating under the premise that you should be asked and give blessings before someone else buys something is an annoying ego.
Advice among friends is fire and forget.
A real friend should say, "let's shoot the hell out that thing" and have a hoot of a time rather than being a negative Nancy.
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PA PATRIOT
04-06-14, 18:43
Friendship and caring is pulling a buddy out of a burning car.
Poopooing on someone else's purchase after the fact when they aren't actually having an issue is just being a pain in the ass.
Operating under the premise that you should be asked and give blessings before someone else buys something is an annoying ego.
Advice among friends is fire and forget.
A real friend should say, "let's shoot the hell out that thing" and have a hoot of a time rather than being a negative Nancy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Zen advice here, nicely put.
wetidlerjr
04-06-14, 20:35
Friendship and caring is pulling a buddy out of a burning car.
Poopooing on someone else's purchase after the fact when they aren't actually having an issue is just being a pain in the ass.
Operating under the premise that you should be asked and give blessings before someone else buys something is an annoying ego.
Advice among friends is fire and forget.
A real friend should say, "let's shoot the hell out that thing" and have a hoot of a time rather than being a negative Nancy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I didn't read the OP as being that negative but that's a matter of opinion. Personally, when I run into these kind of situations, I say nothing and let them learn on their own so I don't entirely disagree with you except your "burning car" analogy is a little dramatic.
I once sold a VERY nice Colt S70 GCNM to a friend and he quickly traded it, straight up, for a crap BM AR decked out with Chinese hand guards, light and forward grip. I looked at it, complimented it as best I could and moved on. I thought that was the best thing to do. I had my money and he had an AR he wanted so it was a win-win for both of us. As they say, "There is no accounting for taste."
We shoot with guys like this several times each year. Pappabear has this buddy in TX who is constantly calling him for an opinion on some piece of shit gun... Sig 1911, etc. And the Mother Fudger NEVER listens. NEVER.
Reminds me of the term "Askhole", they ask for your thoughts and go there own way anyway.
Sometimes people ask, because what they really want is you to agree with them. I'm guilty of it :D. I also agree with IG, in a situation where you just need a part, I don't have to have just 1 brand I can use and be in a bind of waiting for available parts, crazy prices in a panic market, etc.
Tzintzuntzan
04-07-14, 11:22
We shoot with guys like this several times each year. Pappabear has this buddy in TX who is constantly calling him for an opinion on some piece of shit gun... Sig 1911, etc. And the Mother Fudger NEVER listens. NEVER.
Holy shit, a SIG 1911? I can't fathom this decision, since I know they didn't change the design to have a good extractor.
Holy shit, a SIG 1911? I can't fathom this decision, since I know they didn't change the design to have a good extractor.
Who did that extractor change? Was it smith? Either way... when it wouldn't run the guy took it to the shop and the dealer had him grip it, then shake it.... and do the same with a Springfield TRP or operator or some such. When he could hear all the crap rattling around in the Sig, he openned his eyes. :)
Tzintzuntzan
04-07-14, 12:34
Who did that extractor change? Was it smith? Either way... when it wouldn't run the guy took it to the shop and the dealer had him grip it, then shake it.... and do the same with a Springfield TRP or operator or some such. When he could hear all the crap rattling around in the Sig, he openned his eyes. :)
I don't know why people think that a Sig 1911 is worth buying. I keep hearing that the classic lineup of Sig 9mm pistols is returning to its old quality but I'd have to see it first hand before I'm entirely willing to throw down about a grand for a P229.
Normally I just grab a couple different ones of mine (rifle or handgun),let them buy the ammo and take them to the range. Show the differences,also good points/bad points,then let them look up reviews about what they "think" they might want and let them choose what they prefer.
Holy shit, a SIG 1911? I can't fathom this decision, since I know they didn't change the design to have a good extractor.
Too funny. Maybe a sig 1911 would be a bad decision if a person was only allowed to own one pistol for their entire life and anticipated being in more than a few shootouts. Soldiers get issued handguns so I'm not talking about combat use. Are you under the impression that they don't extract? Or is our that you read somewhere that the external extractor is junk? How many had you tried before making this decision? How many 1911s do you own? My sig 1911 does great at the range, more accurate than my glock, and it has a much nicer trigger too. I only have about 800 rounds through it so far, but no malfunctions to date.
typos courtesy of my smart phone
Tzintzuntzan
04-08-14, 10:37
Too funny. Maybe a sig 1911 would be a bad decision if a person was only allowed to own one pistol for their entire life and anticipated being in more than a few shootouts. Soldiers get issued handguns so I'm not talking about combat use. Are you under the impression that they don't extract? Or is our that you read somewhere that the external extractor is junk? How many had you tried before making this decision? How many 1911s do you own? My sig 1911 does great at the range, more accurate than my glock, and it has a much nicer trigger too. I only have about 800 rounds through it so far, but no malfunctions to date.
typos courtesy of my smart phone
I'd hope that the Sig would have a better trigger than a Glock or otherwise that product line would be too sad. Not sure why you'd get a Sig when a TRP is only about $3-400 more.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1697
I don't know why people think that a Sig 1911 is worth buying. I keep hearing that the classic lineup of Sig 9mm pistols is returning to its old quality but I'd have to see it first hand before I'm entirely willing to throw down about a grand for a P229.
Brand Identidy I guess... yeah... the old Sig rep for good pistols still lingers... <Delete>.
Brand Identidy I guess... yeah... the old Sig rep for good pistols still lingers... Same with the Sig ARs.
What negative feedback has there been on the M400 line? Reported lapses in performance?
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I'd hope that the Sig would have a better trigger than a Glock or otherwise that product line would be too sad. Not sure why you'd get a Sig when a TRP is only about $3-400 more.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1697
Full disclosure, got the sig c3 plus for $653 at the sig pro shop in nh. A friend shared the 50% discount with me. It is a lot of pistol for the money at the price I paid.
typos courtesy of my smart phone
Tzintzuntzan
04-08-14, 11:07
Full disclosure, got the sig c3 plus for $653 at the sig pro shop in nh. A friend shared the 50% discount with me. It is a lot of pistol for the money at the price I paid.
typos courtesy of my smart phone
At $653 I'd get a PPQ and some PPQ mags over a 1911. Also I'm not on the East Coast so I have no access to the Sig pro shop. Now if the pro shop sold P220, P226, and P229 for around $700-800 then I'd be kicking myself for not ever being out there.
I had a midlength Adams arms upper for awhile. It was top notch ,great customer service, and totally reliable for me. That being said it was heavier, recoil difference was negligible for me. But I did go back to DI If you do go piston at least go with Adams arms.
At $653 I'd get a PPQ and some PPQ mags over a 1911. Also I'm not on the East Coast so I have no access to the Sig pro shop. Now if the pro shop sold P220, P226, and P229 for around $700-800 then I'd be kicking myself for not ever being out there.
It was the employee discount that I took advantage of. All of their products are 50% off msrp. It was rifles and pistols, but just pistols now. My employees friend was fired, so I'm seeking a new in so I can get an x5.
typos courtesy of my smart phone
What negative feedback has there been on the M400 line? Reported lapses in performance?
I don't remember what the short cuts on that gun were specifically. I was talking on the phone with an "industry professional" and really didn't pay close attention to his concerns with the gun as there's no chance I'd buy one. I may be mistaken.... There was actually another AR we were talking about too.
(I edited my post since I'm not sure the guns we were talking about were Sig or not.)
CharlieDeltaJuliet
04-08-14, 11:49
Second to my Hk, my Sig 516 Patrol is my next choice for rifles. The only upgrade it has is a Geissele SD-3G trigger. I have only put 3,000-3,200 rounds through it but it has yet to stop for anything. It shoots a Suppressor as good as the Hk. It is actually an almost exact copy of an LWRC, so much that Sig were sued and lost. For the $1100 it cost, it has proved its metal. I understand that ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain. Especially with a series of back operations and injections under my belt, but while training with it I do not notice the weight difference in the Sig and my DD.
It is actually an almost exact copy of an LWRC, so much that Sig were sued and lost.
If the gun runs, that would be PROOF that it isn't a rip off of LWRCi. :sarcastic:
"Your Honor... this gun functions." "CASE DISMISSED!"
CharlieDeltaJuliet
04-08-14, 12:19
If the gun runs, that would be PROOF that it isn't a rip off of LWRCi. :sarcastic:
"Your Honor... this gun functions." "CASE DISMISSED!"
LOL, I've had good luck with the older LWRC's. But that is where my experience ends with LWRC. I know they were bought by Colt, or were supposed to be anyhow. Sig had to make slight modifications to their design, mainly at tweek of the gas system. I have heard of Sig 516 issues, but yet to see one in person. But like all issues, the bad spreads like Poison Ivy and the good is lost in the chatter.
We all forget what body part our opinions are most like..... I don't blame someone if they ask me for advice and don't take it, I am just glad they at least asked advice before jumping in. Before I dove into the piston AR genre, I read almost every post Mr.Vickers posted about the Hk, and I decided to go that direction.
Tzintzuntzan
04-08-14, 14:17
I understand that ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain. Especially with a series of back operations and injections under my belt, but while training with it I do not notice the weight difference in the Sig and my DD.
I'll second the weight's negligible effect on me as well. If it's not substantially more front heavy, like my 870 or my god brother's Lee Enfield, then I don't feel the difference either. Also a gun that works is a gun that works. I'll never be able to get behind the hate towards working piston guns but that Osprey, CMMG, Bushmaster crap will be forever banned from my arsenal.
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