View Full Version : Range time, LEM experience, and the move to the M&P
Spent some quality range time this morning with my cousin and brother. We had with us a Glock 29, Glock 19, Glock 17, M&P 9mm full size, RIA 1911, and a HK 45c with light LEM. I'm a Glock shooter so I have a ton of rounds behind them although it was my first time shooting the 10mm which was fun. I was most excited about getting to try out the LEM trigger for the first time and was disappointed. Being used to the Glock trigger the LEM just has way to long of a first stage and a very subdued reset. I struggled with it at first but after putting a some rounds downrange I warmed up to it but decided it just isn't for me. I was thinking about buying one but luckily got a chance to shoot it and save myself the heartache. I sold my Glock when I was laid off of work and needed the money unfortunately so I've been without a side arm for a while now. Got everything squared away now and I'm getting ready to buy a pistol and decided to go with the M&P platform now. I love the ergonomics of it, and have warmed up to the stock trigger although I'd be rocking the apex trigger for sure. I seem to shoot the M&P just as well despite the inferior stock trigger, but the ergonomics make up for it with me. With my low confidence in the new Glocks with all the issues there having I've decided its a good time to move onto the M&P platform.
Until you read about Texas DPS dumping the M&P 9MM due to FT feed / eject, and mag problems...
(Sorry to rain on your parade)...
Most gun manufacturers seem to have issues besides HK it seems.. I'm liking the M&P enough to buy one of the new M&Ps as it seems there biggest issue was the barrels but ill probably be switching the barrel out to a aftermarket one anyhow.
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Christopher
04-06-14, 16:36
With my low confidence in the new Glocks with all the issues there having I've decided its a good time to move onto the M&P platform.
What issues with the new Glocks are you speaking about? No issues with any of mine.
Until you read about Texas DPS dumping the M&P 9MM due to FT feed / eject, and mag problems...
(Sorry to rain on your parade)...
Link? Thanks
Most gun manufacturers seem to have issues besides HK it seems.. I'm liking the M&P enough to buy one of the new M&Ps as it seems there biggest issue was the barrels but ill probably be switching the barrel out to a aftermarket one anyhow.
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Cool man, rock what you shoot best and are most comfortable with. HK handguns have their fair share of issues as well. It's important to run any gun you plan on carrying through it's paces before you go live with it, regardless of brand.
I thought I was a fan of the LEM as well, but it's just that I was used to shooting regular HK triggers. The LEM is still a bad trigger but it feels like a godsend compared to the abortion that comes on the standard V1/V3 models. Opinions and all that.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-06-14, 16:43
The M&P is the best designed modern combat autoloader around, IMO. Unfortunately, they seem to be a crap-shoot in the accuracy and QC department. Still, I have had much better luck with them than any Glock other than older G17s. If you want zero-headache/bombproof reliability and QC HK is probably the only game in town (with Walther, possibly) but they suffer from ergonomic weirdness in the trigger and slide-release department.
Link? Thanks
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/363569-texas-dps-m-p-model.html
Read the last few posts. No official word yet. This has been circulating for the past couple of days and the SW and Sig forums.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/363569-texas-dps-m-p-model.html
Read the last few posts. No official word yet. This has been circulating for the past couple of days and the SW and Sig forums.
Yup, comes from knowledgable members on both forum and is as official as you can get without actual correspondence / press release.
If you want zero-headache/bombproof reliability and QC HK is probably the only game in town (with Walther, possibly) but they suffer from ergonomic weirdness in the trigger and slide-release department.
Every time I think I should give a G19 another chance, I come back to this thought, especially because I love LEM and the slide releases have never been an issue.
What issues with the new Glocks are you speaking about? No issues with any of mine.
Consistent G19 Gen 4 / late Gen 3 brass to the face, I'm sure.
Mauser KAR98K
04-06-14, 18:12
Give the DA/SA variant of the HK a chance. The USP has the better SA over the P30. I have tried two HKs with the LEM and hated them both.
Sucks to here DPS is dropping the M&P. I have a 45 version and it is still solid though I have replaced the trigger to a FSS from apex. Hopefully Smith can fix this.
I've shot the DA/SA trigger on a USP 45 but it was like 10 years ago so I definitely don't remember well. I generally strongly dislike DA/SA though. Glock triggers just have me spoiled from shooting my old 17 for so long.
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Wow. Thanks.
Talk about falling flat on your face after a big win. I wonder if they got a bad batch of mags or supplied .40 cal mags with 9mm guns?
Either way, this will leave a mark.
PatrioticDisorder
04-06-14, 19:18
Until you read about Texas DPS dumping the M&P 9MM due to FT feed / eject, and mag problems...
(Sorry to rain on your parade)...
Everyone I know who runs an M&P has had good luck. It would be interesting to hear what it was specifically with the run of guns Texas DPS had. Pretty much besides H&K every manufacturer has had their fair share of issues with specific departments.
PatrioticDisorder
04-06-14, 19:22
Wasn't Texas DPS previously using .357sig M&Ps? Pure speculation on my part but it wouldn't surprise me if the malfunctions Texas DPS experienced with the M&P 9mm came from using previously issued .357sig(.40) mags...
Aren't those mags clearly marked as to what Amo they are for?
PatrioticDisorder
04-06-14, 20:01
Aren't those mags clearly marked as to what Amo they are for?
To me they are very clearly marked, but I honestly cannot think of why a bunch of M&Ps would start malfunctioning like that. It's very odd but if the wrong mags were used it would make a lot more sense.
Wasn't Texas DPS previously using .357sig M&Ps? Pure speculation on my part but it wouldn't surprise me if the malfunctions Texas DPS experienced with the M&P 9mm came from using previously issued .357sig(.40) mags...
DPS was issued Sig P226 DAKs in .357. The M&P's were going to replace those. Guess they will be sticking with Sig or going a different route.
DPS has always had strong ties to Sig, they have been carrying Sig pistols at least since the early 90's. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Sig P320 shows up. DPS was obviously looking for a striker fired poly pistol, hence the move to the M&P. Now Sig has a dog in that hunt, so who knows. I'm sure Sig will offer DPS another outrageous deal to trade their 226's in for the 320's. That's how DPS got the .357 initially, Sig took their old Sigs in trade and supplied them with the 226s in .357 for next to nothing, and supplied all the .357 ammo they could shoot for three years.
Link? Thanks
Tx DPS is just starting transition to the M&P's from Sigs.
Tx DPS is just starting transition to the M&P's from Sigs.
Not any more. They are going back to Sig after the first batch of M&P9's had reliability problems.
Most gun manufacturers seem to have issues besides HK it seems.. I'm liking the M&P enough to buy one of the new M&Ps as it seems there biggest issue was the barrels but ill probably be switching the barrel out to a aftermarket one anyhow.
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And there is your answer! When someone breaks in your house intent on doing you harm you want the gun that goes bang every time, not the one with the "nicest" trigger. It seams as though everyone squawks about m&p and glock issues but are turned off by the HK's mediocre trigger!?!? My p30 will be riding my nightstand and God forbid if I ever have to shoot an intruder I'm not worried about getting a hot shell in the eye cause I don't have my specs on.
That's my rant for tonight.
MatthewJ7654
04-07-14, 02:15
I use an M&P 40 on duty. I now have 1240 rounds through it...a combination of FMJ, frangible, and duty JHP. The firearm has never malfunctioned. My off duty M&P 9c has a similar track record (but with only 300 rds). Never a malfunction with any of the ammo. I cannot comment on the DPS situation. But to think that all M&Ps are unreliable due to the DPS situation would be illogical.
Beat Trash
04-07-14, 10:02
I'm the guy going in circles.
I've been issued an M&P9 for over 7 years. I can make it work for me as a duty pistol. But size wise I prefer the Glock 19 for when not at work. (The M&P9c just doesn't do it for me.)
I bought a gen4 Glock 19 last winter. So far so good. Recently remarried and introducing my wife to shooting. Neither gun "just right" for her. A trip to a store and handling an HKP30 LEM and we were both in love with the gun. So I listened to her and bought a pair of HKP30 V1 light LEM's. Felt great. Until we shot the guns. Just not liking how the gun feels in the hand when shooting it. Even with the large inserts, the grip is a bit too small for me and the gun moves around in my hand. The slide release is too long and interferes with the grip. The defining moment was when I set two targets up at about 10 yds. We both shot the gen4 Glock better than the HK. It's a shame as I really wanted to like the HKP30. In time, I could most likely overcome these issues through training, but I have opted not to dedicate the time to do so. (Will be posting both of these guns for sale this afternoon. Total of 100 res per gun through them.)
My Gen4 Glock 19 is reliable. But this is a sample of one gun. The same can be said of my personal and issued M&P9's. The new M&P magazines suck. The base plate comes off too often when doing a mag change. After hearing about Texas DPS halting the issue of the M&P on the 4th, I am not so trusting of newly manufactured M&P's.
The issue I have right now is I often have people ask for recomendations as to what guy to buy. These people don't have the luxury of armors support should they have an issue. They are wanting to spend their hard earned money for a reliable gun. One that should work right out of the box. They are trusting me to help them with this decision. I should be able to give someone an answer. Ten plus years ago, I could say, "Get a 9mm Glock or Sig and you'll be ok".
Now?
I use an M&P 40 on duty. I now have 1240 rounds through it...a combination of FMJ, frangible, and duty JHP. The firearm has never malfunctioned. My off duty M&P 9c has a similar track record (but with only 300 rds). Never a malfunction with any of the ammo. I cannot comment on the DPS situation. But to think that all M&Ps are unreliable due to the DPS situation would be illogical.
I think that the 40 caliber M&Ps have a much better track record than their 9mm cousins. Having said that I'm intrigued by the DPS situation for 2 reasons. First, the dig against the 9mm M&P has historically been due to accuracy issues from a variety of design quirks such as early barrel unlocking, unconventional twist rate, etc. Reliability was never a problem with the M&P9 until now. Second, the M&P9 has undergone significant redesign in the past 18 months, and most authorities who recommend the pistol would say that current production models are GTG. I'm now starting to wonder if the efforts to improve accuracy have swung the pendulum a little too far against reliability in their 9mm line.
Ten plus years ago, I could say, "Get a 9mm Glock or Sig and you'll be ok".
Now?
I know the feeling. I use to tell people to look at brand A, B, C or D and pick the one they liked the most & learn to shoot it. I am a Glock fanboy. However, HK is the only one that I currently trust to work out of the box.
Good news - most people doesn't listen anyway and buy brand F because the gun shop expert told them that Seals carried it in Bangladesh
Until there is an official statement from the DPS or S&W or a true insider, all this is just speculation but that is what fuels the 'net!
In the early 1980s S&W shipped about 300 m-65s to the Tx prison system. So many were defective that Smith sent a team from the factory to repair them. If Smith has shipped another lemon batch to their biggest customer(state of Tx), then they've done it again. Nobody gives a shit about prison system issues, but state troopers are another matter altogether. Evidently, Texas has a tentative arrangement with the middleman supplier if the state is able to change its mind.
Having worked almost 40 years for one government agency or another, I can honestly say that all were capable of lying and did so if truth was deemed unacceptable.
My guess is that somebody changed his(or her)mind. Why? Who knows? I can assure you that money or the lack of it is not the issue.
I've got north of 8,500 rds thru my carry M&P.
Four stoppages - 2 where my own issues (I autoforward a lot - and was out of the habit of hitting the slide release as a double check) 2 where ammo (fair hit primer - no detonation -- tried rounds in two other guns later [night shoot qual] and still did not fire.
It's a Pro Series CORE, but it both shoots very well and has been 100% reliable on the gun end.
My 9C has around 3,500 rds on it -- it is a poorly sized gun, I shoot it well, but 12rds and cannot mount a light.
My Shield has only 250 rds on it - but has been fine, the wife's has around 500 no issues with it.
That said I have seen M&P's with accuracy issues -- some go away with new barrels, so do not.
What issues with the new Glocks are you speaking about? No issues with any of mine.
Read all the Glock threads in the handgun forum.
C4
Dos Cylindros
04-07-14, 16:22
At my first agency, I was issued and carried a Glock 22. While it was a decent engough gun, it would hiccup enough that I was never really satified with it. Now, I run an M&P 40 at work. I have probably north of 8,000 rounds through it and it has stopped only once. That was due to a round of training ammo that was not set deep enough, causing the gun to no go fully into battery. I have absoloute faith in my issued M&P. I have a 9c which only has about 500 rounds through it and has not had one bobble. I don't carry the 9c anymore because I have devoted my personal use gun to the H&K platform. I picked up a HK45 and an HK45c, both with the V7 LEM and Meprolight night sights. I brifely had a P30, but the overly long slide stop caused failure to lock back issues with my high thumbs forward grip. I sold the P30 to fund the HK45c.
Transitioning to the LEM trigger was strange for only the first one or two range sessions. After that, I find I prefer the LEM to the trigger on my M&P and I beleive that it would make a far superior duty trigger for an issued weapon. HK's QC and reputation for durability and reliability along with the well documented endurance tests on the HK45 and P30 has me convinced. Lastly, I have not found it to be an issue transitioning between my duty M&P and my LEM HK's. One just has a longer takeup compared to the other. The method and body mechanics of the trigger press are the same no matter what type of trigger you are using. The only thing that changes is how far you finger has to travel.
I feel like it would take me 1k plus rounds to get used to the LEM trigger. Its advantages aren't worth the percived steep learning curve atleast for me. I like the M&P and Glock enough to stick my neck out a little hoping they will be gtg.
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brickboy240
04-08-14, 12:00
I agree on the HK LEM trigger. It just felt odd.
If the LEM equipped pistol was my only gun...then I might see having one but going between that trigger and others...I could see problems. It just felt odd...sorry.
If I end up going to the P-30...I just might go the traditional d/a-s/a trigger and just train hard and get used to it. I thought the P-30 d/a trigger felt better than the triggers on the older USPs. Not perfect by any stretch but I could live with it.
-brickboy240
Coal Dragger
04-08-14, 12:14
The HK LEM does feel odd at first especially dry firing it, I have yet to get the chance to shoot one although I have a feeling I would end up being able to shoot it at least as well as most other service type triggers. I don't get the opportunity to train much these days on close up high speed shooting, so if I were to start again I don't see the HK LEM trigger as a big disadvantage since I don't really have any other trigger that I am used to doing that kind of work with. I used to shoot a 1911 a lot, but that was in competition and I'm not about to carry a 2.5lb match trigger on a self defense gun because that is just silly.
So my next self defense gun purchase since I am none too happy with my SIG P229 DAK (horrible trigger), will be either a very high quality 1911 (Wilson or Brown) or the HK45, HK45C, or HK P30. I realize that those two platforms are very different in manipulation and maintenance needs.
I found the dry firing of the LEM to be quite a bit better than live rounds. I dry fired it at first when my cousin brought it by the house and I was like "that's a little different but not as bad as people make it seem". It was when I actually was shooting it at the range I realised how difficult for me it was. I don't even mind the long first stage, its the break of the second stage to me that I couldn't figure out. It didn't seem consistent where it actually broke and fired a round and there was little to no reset feel that I could feel. So I was shotguning the target pretty bad at 7 yards.
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Wasn't Texas DPS previously using .357sig M&Ps? Pure speculation on my part but it wouldn't surprise me if the malfunctions Texas DPS experienced with the M&P 9mm came from using previously issued .357sig(.40) mags...
No. Tx DPS currently issues SIG P-226 DAKs in .357 sig caliber and previously issued the same gun in DA/SA.
The New Mexico State Police recently swapped their M&P .357s for M&P 9mm's and the North Carolina Highway Patrol is supposedly dropping their M&P .357s to return to SIGs in the same caliber.
I found the dry firing of the LEM to be quite a bit better than live rounds. I dry fired it at first when my cousin brought it by the house and I was like "that's a little different but not as bad as people make it seem". It was when I actually was shooting it at the range I realised how difficult for me it was. I don't even mind the long first stage, its the break of the second stage to me that I couldn't figure out. It didn't seem consistent where it actually broke and fired a round and there was little to no reset feel that I could feel. So I was shotguning the target pretty bad at 7 yards.
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Staging the trigger on the second part of the pull is a common issue with the LEM. Forget riding the re-set with the LEM. Run it like a DA Revolver- once you start the pull, your trigger finger never stops moving.
___TomB___
04-08-14, 19:32
My opinion here is if you like the M&P then buy it with confidence. Highly UNLIKELY that you are going to get a lemon.
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There is never a perfect gun... all guns seem to have an issue
Glock - btf (9mm)
m&p - accuracy (9mm)
hk - trigger - feel (cant stand how they shoot... like the recoil and action as it cycles)
sig - same as hk
cz - heavy, low capacity.
1911 - capacity/price
I ended up with an m&p 40 back when you couldn't get g19s... couldn't be happier(if my sample of 1 is representative, stock trigger issues are blown way outta proportion - it doesn't feel good but it shoots great. Reset?- cant feel it doing .25sec splits (not fast) let alone .2sec. Im about to start reloading, and don't have to worry about accuracy issues. I could buy a 9mm conv bbl if I wanted but not worried cost since Im gonna start reloading and shoot uspsa (I'll pick up a 9 for carry when they get a good track record).
Gen 4 glock 40s seem to have a pretty good track record as well. Sorry no one can make it happen in 9mm. Split times with 40? Marginal, and would be offset by pulling brass out your eyeballs or missing 6" high. Just my $.02.
Oh, and m&p and glock 9mm conv barrels are cheap and easy to come by.
Having owned 3 FS M&P 9 and 1 compact, they have never ever failed in thousands of rounds per gun aside from two Magtech squibs. I'll certainly agree that the compact is a poorly sized gun, but the reliability of these weapons has been phenomenal. I rarely clean my pistols, maybe once every few thousand rounds. I did have one FS 9 that exhibited less than desirable accuracy, though the two newer models and compact have been more accurate than I'm capable of. My M&P 45 is an absolute tack driver.
I don't do a great job of tracking rounds down the tube but if I had to guess this would be it:
5/2011 M&P 9 FS 4500 rounds (slight accuracy issues, sold to a friend who seems content with it)
8/2011 M&P 45 8000 rounds
3/2012 M&P 9c 6000 rounds
6/2013 M&P 9 FS 3300 rounds
9/2013 M&P 9 FS 2500 rounds (yet to be cleaned)
PatrioticDisorder
04-08-14, 21:25
Having owned 3 FS M&P 9 and 1 compact, they have never ever failed in thousands of rounds per gun aside from two Magtech squibs. I'll certainly agree that the compact is a poorly sized gun, but the reliability of these weapons has been phenomenal. I rarely clean my pistols, maybe once every few thousand rounds. I did have one FS 9 that exhibited less than desirable accuracy, though the two newer models and compact have been more accurate than I'm capable of. My M&P 45 is an absolute tack driver.
I don't do a great job of tracking rounds down the tube but if I had to guess this would be it:
5/2011 M&P 9 FS 4500 rounds (slight accuracy issues, sold to a friend who seems content with it)
8/2011 M&P 45 8000 rounds
3/2012 M&P 9c 6000 rounds
6/2013 M&P 9 FS 3300 rounds
9/2013 M&P 9 FS 2500 rounds (yet to be cleaned)
Call me odd, I like the size of the compact (with pinky extensuon). The M&P compacts definitely conceal better than Glock 19 and sub compact Glocks never did feel right in my hand. Interestingly I love my Shield with flush fit mag.
Call me odd, I like the size of the compact (with pinky extensuon). The M&P compacts definitely conceal better than Glock 19 and sub compact Glocks never did feel right in my hand. Interestingly I love my Shield with flush fit mag.
If you like M&P's, but always wanted S&W to make a G19 size pistol, the M&P9c with Mec-Gar Plus 2 extensions is it IMO. 14+1 rounds with extension, 1 shy of Glock 19. I currently have mine setup with Apex AEK polymer trigger, Apex sear, Apex USB, and stock springs. I also have 10-8 tritium sights on it, Talon rubber grips and 21st Century Gunfighter Mod 1 Catalyst magazine release. Shot my first IDPA match with it last weekend and finished 17 out of 66 shooters. I love the gun and don't mind the mods I added. They are worth it IMO and help make the gun exactly the way I want it.
Dos Cylindros
04-08-14, 23:31
If you like M&P's, but always wanted S&W to make a G19 size pistol, the M&P9c with Mec-Gar Plus 2 extensions is it IMO. 14+1 rounds with extension, 1 shy of Glock 19. I currently have mine setup with Apex AEK polymer trigger, Apex sear, Apex USB, and stock springs. I also have 10-8 tritium sights on it, Talon rubber grips and 21st Century Gunfighter Mod 1 Catalyst magazine release. Shot my first IDPA match with it last weekend and finished 17 out of 66 shooters. I love the gun and don't mind the mods I added. They are worth it IMO and help make the gun exactly the way I want it.
With regard to the Mec-Gar extention, what magazine spring are you using? The stock 12 round spring, or the spring from the full size mag?
walkin' trails
04-09-14, 07:40
UI have a ,45 and 9, both FS. The 45 is older and suffered a broken striker at 7500 rounds during a dry fire session. The 9 has maybe 1500 down the pipe and has not been a problem. Neither has ever jammed up on me on the range during live fire. I try to change out springs every 5k rounds just to maintain reliability. There's a shooter on another site who claimed to have run over 50k thru an earlier model 9. There were some parts breakages, but I doubt most LE, and certainly fewer civilians are ever going to approach that round count with any pistol in a lifetime, let alone just one. I haven't heard anything official other than internet rumors that mention TX DPS problems with the M&P, and I accept that it could be happening, but that is not my experience. The M&P is one of the more ergonomically friendly pistols on the market, but I maintain that one handgun design is not universal to every shooter, and each should explore and choose what is best for him/her. I have fired a LEM trigger once in a USP Compact, and while it was okay, I really don't care for DAO trigger mechanisms unless they are part of a S&W K frame that has been massaged by a competent smith.
To the OP, if you prefer the M&P, don't be discouraged. With any pistol intended for defensive use, it should be field stripped, wiped down, and lubed prior to taking it to the range. Dry firing should be performed liberally. Break it in first with ball ammo, and then make sure it will function with a box or two of whatever defensive ammo you prefer to run. If it doesn't want to work, exercise S&W's excellent warranty, and get rid of it when it comes back if you aren't comfortable with it.
For everyone regardless of what pistol you rely on, carry a BUG. Remember that they're all man-made mechanical devices and will eventuality fail for one reason or another.
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With regard to the Mec-Gar extention, what magazine spring are you using? The stock 12 round spring, or the spring from the full size mag?
I use stock spring. I believe, but am not certain, that S&W uses the same magazine spring for all of their magazines.
Dos Cylindros
04-09-14, 08:50
I use stock spring. I believe, but am not certain, that S&W uses the same magazine spring for all of their magazines.
Thanks bud!
Thanks bud!
No problem. BTW, the Plus Two extension is about the same height as stock finger rest, but it is a little bit longer. In other words, there is a front lip between grip and extension, but it does not bother me. So before ordering 6-12 magazine extensions to upgrade all of your magazines, you may want to try it first to make sure you like it. As I said before, it doesn't bother me, but some people shave the front down. That's too much work IMO.
Sorry to hear you shot a light LEM - that trigger is crappy compared to a regular LEM... A Match / Hybrid LEM however is a different story all together!
It's a shame H&K doesn't offer it as a factory configuration, it's their best damn trigger.
Staging the trigger on the second part of the pull is a common issue with the LEM. Forget riding the re-set with the LEM. Run it like a DA Revolver- once you start the pull, your trigger finger never stops moving.
Pretty much this. I shoot my HK P2000sk quite well and transitioning between my 1911s, Glocks, HK SA/DA guns and my two LEMS never really seemed to bother me much. if I had to grab one in the middle of night to go down stairs to the sound of breaking glass it would be one of my HKs. OMMV
Sorry to hear you shot a light LEM - that trigger is crappy compared to a regular LEM... A Match / Hybrid LEM however is a different story all together!
It's a shame H&K doesn't offer it as a factory configuration, it's their best damn trigger.
What would you say is the best factory LEM variant on the p30?
What would you say is the best factory LEM variant on the p30?
I prefer the V2 "heavy" LEM on mine. The V1 was a touch too light for my taste and I didn't shoot quite as well as the V2 but I'd imagine I'm in the minority.
MikeDawg46L
04-10-14, 09:12
My first HK was a P30 V2 LEM in 40S&W. I really liked the V2 config as well. The reset was a little more "tactile".....I guess that would be the best way to describe it. I ended up getting rid of it in favor of a P30 V3 in 9mm as I was trying to consolidate all of my calibers for easier reloading purposes. I went with the V3 instead of going back to the LEM for what I feel is simple reason, though I may have overcomplicated the thought process.
The reason being that I love the SA of V3, as I have found that I can run it smooth and quickly. I carry in DA with the safety on, and feel that if I were ever in a situation that I would have to use my carry weapon, the DA gives just a little more time and resistance so that have that extra split second to ensure that using the weapon is the only option I have left. Once I've made the decision and fired the first round, then it is SA from that point on and I am completely committed to neutralizing any threat. I also train heavily in disengaging the safety in presentation, first shot DA, and subsequent shots in SA. It takes some getting used to, but I really like the V3 now that I have some time with it.
For reference, I come from a background of shooting only striker pistols. XD and Glocks. I wouldn't go back...fwiw. YMMV and all that...
Psalms144.1
04-10-14, 13:03
What would you say is the best factory LEM variant on the p30?I use the "TLG" LEM variant - it's the "V1" light LEM with the standard Trigger return spring. Pull is about 5#, reset is fairly firm, overall, I think it's a great compromise, since the Match components aren't available for the "P" series guns.
I use the "TLG" LEM variant - it's the "V1" light LEM with the standard Trigger return spring. Pull is about 5#, reset is fairly firm, overall, I think it's a great compromise, since the Match components aren't available for the "P" series guns.
I seriously thought about doing the same but found myself really not wanting to get into my P30. I can take 1911s, Sigs and Glocks down to the frame forwards and backwards but there is something about messing with my HKs that gives me the willies.
I'm just glad that with an HK I'll never need to... :D
I found the dry firing of the LEM to be quite a bit better than live rounds. I dry fired it at first when my cousin brought it by the house and I was like "that's a little different but not as bad as people make it seem". It was when I actually was shooting it at the range I realised how difficult for me it was. I don't even mind the long first stage, its the break of the second stage to me that I couldn't figure out. It didn't seem consistent where it actually broke and fired a round and there was little to no reset feel that I could feel. So I was shotguning the target pretty bad at 7 yards.
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Comparing the LEM to d/a P30s I have, the LEM trigger feels the same, after the take up, as the SA action on the d/a gun. There is no inconsistency in the LEM.
The LEM reset is weak, but I release the trigger past that point to prevent any short stroking. I did the samething with Sigs after trying to release to reset and failing every once in a while. So far this has not changed split times, I can run the trigger faster then I can get a second sight picture.
I do find in interesting how in the 1911 forum people are talking about the excellent trigger being a crutch, but HK triggers which aren't considered to be that great, are also taking a beating.
I seriously thought about doing the same but found myself really not wanting to get into my P30. I can take 1911s, Sigs and Glocks down to the frame forwards and backwards but there is something about messing with my HKs that gives me the willies.
I'm just glad that with an HK I'll never need to... :D
I installed a LEM kit in my HK45ct..Really, it's not that hard, there's a few vid's on youtube to watch, but really it wasn't that difficult..Installing a trigger return spring with out the pliers that HK parts.net sells is difficult...It took me about a 1/2 hr to install a light LEM TRS in my P-30 without the tool.. With the tool, it takes about 2 -3 minutes...Those pliers are one of the few things that HK Parts.net sells that's actually worth the money....
Comparing the LEM to d/a P30s I have, the LEM trigger feels the same, after the take up, as the SA action on the d/a gun. There is no inconsistency in the LEM.
The LEM reset is weak, but I release the trigger past that point to prevent any short stroking. I did the samething with Sigs after trying to release to reset and failing every once in a while. So far this has not changed split times, I can run the trigger faster then I can get a second sight picture.
I do find in interesting how in the 1911 forum people are talking about the excellent trigger being a crutch, but HK triggers which aren't considered to be that great, are also taking a beating.
HK triggers have always taken a beating....But, I figure it like this.. If I can master the LEM, It should make me a much better shooter with anything else..
MikeDawg46L
04-10-14, 20:41
I have never understood the hate for any HK trigger. I'm not sure if people are expecting Jewell bolt gun type triggers in their off-the-shelf HKs or what, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I've never fired an HK that was so bad I said to myself "man I'd be crazy to trust my life to to this weapon because this trigger is unacceptable".
If you've ever fired a Ruger LCP or similar, then the HK trigger is like a race-gun 1911 über custom.
I bet if HK really felt they needed a better trigger in a base gun, they would put them in every gun coming off the assembly line.
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This sounds like a bad DPS batch of ammo to me. I was an M&P hater when my department initially transitioned to them but now own 3 purchased in the last 2 years with zero issues.
I have never understood the hate for any HK trigger. I'm not sure if people are expecting Jewell bolt gun type triggers in their off-the-shelf HKs or what, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I've never fired an HK that was so bad I said to myself "man I'd be crazy to trust my life to to this weapon because this trigger is unacceptable".
If you've ever fired a Ruger LCP or similar, then the HK trigger is like a race-gun 1911 über custom.
I bet if HK really felt they needed a better trigger in a base gun, they would put them in every gun coming off the assembly line.
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Well the trigger sucks compaired to a glock or m&p to me. Not saying I couldn't get used to it but I find it vastly inferior. The ergonomics of the m&p are better or atleast as good and it cost a fraction of the cost for the gun, I'm not even going to mention the mags.... As long as I get one without fleas I'll be a happy camper. If not I'll let randy work his magic.
I have never understood the hate for any HK trigger. I'm not sure if people are expecting Jewell bolt gun type triggers in their off-the-shelf HKs or what, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I've never fired an HK that was so bad I said to myself "man I'd be crazy to trust my life to to this weapon because this trigger is unacceptable".
If you've ever fired a Ruger LCP or similar, then the HK trigger is like a race-gun 1911 über custom.
I bet if HK really felt they needed a better trigger in a base gun, they would put them in every gun coming off the assembly line.
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My HK45C DA trigger pull is 15 lbs. Reset is distinct but very long compared to a SRT equipped Sig or most striker offerings.
What kind of OWB holster do you guys recommend/like for the M&P. I've always used bladetechs with my Glocks. I need a left hand light compatable holster.
MikeDawg46L
04-13-14, 20:42
What kind of OWB holster do you guys recommend/like for the M&P. I've always used bladetechs with my Glocks. I need a left hand light compatable holster.
Not sure about the M&P specifically, but I used the G-code RTI system for OWB/MOLLE mounts for my old XD and have one now for my HK. I use Garrett for IWB. I think Gcode has a line of kydex models that are modular so you can use the same top half of the holster, and swap the bottom for with or without a light.
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What kind of OWB holster do you guys recommend/like for the M&P. I've always used bladetechs with my Glocks. I need a left hand light compatable holster.
Raven Concealment.
What kind of OWB holster do you guys recommend/like for the M&P. I've always used bladetechs with my Glocks. I need a left hand light compatable holster.
For range use I use a safariland als. I don't use OWB for carry so I cant comment on concealment OWB holsters.
walkin' trails
04-14-14, 08:28
My OWB is a Milt Sparks pancake style holster. It concealed and carrys well for a belt holster. For concealment, I've found that leather still works better than kydex (and far better than nylon). A good leather rig will cost you more, but is worth it in the long run.
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I'm not going to be carrying obviously because I'm in shitty MD. Holster will be used for training and range time on a ares ranger belt.
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What kind of OWB holster do you guys recommend/like for the M&P. I've always used bladetechs with my Glocks. I need a left hand light compatable holster.
RCS Phantom or Personal Security Systems
KiloSierra
04-21-14, 05:31
This sounds like a bad DPS batch of ammo to me. I was an M&P hater when my department initially transitioned to them but now own 3 purchased in the last 2 years with zero issues.
My first M&P9 was a 2009 manufactured gun and it's been absolutely flawless since I bought it in the spring of last year. My second M&P9 I bought last fall and and it had some issues with some Tula brass 9mm rounds that had a shorter, more blunt nose profile then most 9mm ammo until I had a couple hundred rounds through it. No issues with that ammo after I fired 100 Federal rounds after the first can of Tula. The same ammo was shot through the first M&P9 and my Sig P226 with no issues.
ShortytheFirefighter
04-21-14, 16:45
RCS Phantom or Personal Security Systems
Raven Concealment.
Thirded.
I run a Phantom LC with a fullsize M&P with an X400 underneath.
Regardless of holster and trigger issues, could they PLEASE make magazines more obtainable for the M&P? It's irritating to say the least to find any kind of M&P mag other than Shields right now.
Regardless of holster and trigger issues, could they PLEASE make magazines more obtainable for the M&P? It's irritating to say the least to find any kind of M&P mag other than Shields right now.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=39490
9mm?
Regardless of holster and trigger issues, could they PLEASE make magazines more obtainable for the M&P? It's irritating to say the least to find any kind of M&P mag other than Shields right now.
We have Compact 12rd and 17rd 9mm mags in stock now along with 8rd Shield Mags.
C4
Well I got my m&p, its away at the local smith getting strait 8s installed. Gonna shoot it for a bit stock, before sending it off for the deack and aek.
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Not any more. They are going back to Sig after the first batch of M&P9's had reliability problems.
I think the issue with the M&P can be traced to the TX DPS Training Academy where the new guns are being used. DPS seems to want to move away from the S&W rather quickly. Doesn't sound like they want to find the root of the issues.
I think the issue with the M&P can be traced to the TX DPS Training Academy where the new guns are being used. DPS seems to want to move away from the S&W rather quickly. Doesn't sound like they want to find the root of the issues.
I'm not convinced there was an actual issue. This article in the Tribune has some very curious claims.
http://www.texastribune.org/2014/04/17/dps-suspends-use-new-handgun-over-concerns/
Re: OWB holsters. I have used raven. It is 100% legit and proven for OWB kydex. It's the easy answer....
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