View Full Version : So I'm the latest Glock victim.. and I'm exhausted.
Last month I purchased my first Glock, a fourth gen 19, with the intent of making it my primary carry piece. My rationale behind the purchase was that it pointed very naturally, was a great size for my hand and body shape/size, and in my rental experience, proved to be very accurate. After several years of reading about the various ejection issues Glock 19's & 17's have exhibited, I was diligent in making sure it was of late manufacture and contained all of the latest parts (30274 ejector, etc.).
After dry firing for a couple weeks I made it to the range Saturday to begin developing a more intamite understanding of its behavior under live fire, and to establish its reliability. I brought 400 rounds of practice ammo of various manufacture, and 100 rounds of my carry/defense ammo.
With my first box of practice ammo down range I was already feeling at home behind the new platform. Groups tightened, things were becoming natural, quickly. Suddenly I felt a piece of brass roll down the back of my head, neck, and into the hood of my sweatshirt. Hmmm... that's weird I thought to myself. Maybe I just forgot what it's like to shoot indoors and it's bouncing off the lane divider. Back to blasting. Thirty rounds later... wait a sec, did brass just roll down my right hand and forearm? Oh my God, am I having ejection issues?
I made sure the Glock was aimed safely down range and decided to watch the ejection pattern rather than focus on speed and accuracy drills. Brass was ejecting in all sorts of directions. With all types of ammo 115, 124, and 147 grain, including my quality defense ammunition and +p rounds. About 50% of the time it ejected in the correct direction, albeit weakly. Otherwise, as someone else once described, it looked like a sprinkler. It's the first time I've seen brass eject forward.
My parting gift? Hot brass to the face, just below my eye pro on my upper cheekbone. Scary to think of the potential ramifications if that had happened in a self defense situation without eye protection.
So why are we here? Well, it's not to bash Glock or figure out a way to fix my 19 (I've written it off already). We're here because I'm exhausted. I don't really know what platform to turn to turn next.
I've shot M&P's for the past 5 years, and never had the accuracy issues many others had, and they were completely reliable. The one issue is it's about the only platform that doesn't work for me ergonomicly. It's a shame really, just about every gun I pick up points naturally for me, for some reason the M&P never would, and traing didn't help. Because of its permanent foreigness to my hand, I have no desire to go back to it, despite it's reliability.
So what's reliable anymore? Minus the M&P, just about everything works for me ergonomicly (the subjective side is out of the way), I need your help finding quality and reliability. Am I losing my mind or do quality control issues seem to be plaguing the handgun industry?
What do I do?
-Sig 226?
-HK P30?
-Beretta 92?
-CZ?
-"your suggestion here"
Please, help.
I would very seriously consider the Apex FRE with non-LCI spring loaded bearing before throwing in the towel on Gen 4 Glocks. Every one I've owned had one of the Apex extractors and none of them exhibited any extraction issues even with a surefire x300 attached with weak or strong ammo.
MSparks909
04-06-14, 23:19
I would very seriously consider the Apex FRE with non-LCI spring loaded bearing before throwing in the towel on Gen 4 Glocks. Every one I've owned had one of the Apex extractors and none of them exhibited any extraction issues even with a surefire x300 attached with weak or strong ammo.
X2. Try to fix it with the Apex parts. If it still doesn't work properly, take a good look at the Walther PPQ. I find the ergonomics superior to the Glock models, and the PPQ has the best striker fired trigger for a stock gun, period. The size is very similar to the G19 as well. I rented one a couple of weeks ago, and I must say I'm STRONGLY considering purchasing the 5" model for a gamer gun.
Another vote for the Apex parts. I put them in all my Glock 9s as soon as I get them, and swear by them.
teutonicpolymer
04-06-14, 23:27
Before you start buying parts you could just contact Glock
they have excellent customer service
First thing I would do is to contact Glock. Even though they are in denial I would still make them aware of the issue. Also, since you don't mention it, it would be great to hear exactly what ammo you were using.
Then I would contact APEX and get their fix. Thus far every case that I have heard of where someone bough their components the problems went away.
Probably because he is like many others and is deterred from doing so due to Glocks lack of response with this and other issues.
But, I agree in that he should at least address the issue with them.
Before you start buying parts you could just contact Glock
they have excellent customer service
I bought a Walther PPQ so I would have a functional pistol while I was dicking around with my Glock 19 and it's BTF issue. The PPQ I found to be superior in almost every way. I finally was able to fix my Glock with an FRE and 30274 ejector, but by then I didn't care. Sold the Glock without even the faintest trace of regret (except for the money I lost on it) and bought a second PPQ. I have over 5500 rounds through the first one without a single failure of any kind. It's virtually the same size as the G19, carries better, handles better, and is more accurate. The trigger is not overrated.
I'd try to tune your Glock via the Apex fix (no experience with that) or contact Glock.
I'd try the Apex fix first.
davebee456
04-07-14, 01:12
Sell it and buy a Slightly Used Gen 3 Glock 19 with serial Number Prefix F through N....thats about 6 years of Glock 19's that work perfect.
Sell it and buy a Slightly Used Gen 3 Glock 19 with serial Number Prefix F through N....thats about 6 years of Glock 19's that work perfect.
THis is good advise. I purchased a Gen 3 19 with serial numbers GYY a few months back and have shot close to 3,000 rds thru it without any issue. It had an April 2005 test fire date on it. I also have several other early to mid gen 3 guns that have been flawless. I did some research and saw that the 1st issues with Glocks began with serial number M. So all my Glocks have serial numbers before M**. All have been 100% and in my non expert opinion these earlier Gen 3 Glocks are the best and most reliable pistols ever made.
They can be had pretty cheap as well. I purchased the 19 a few months back for $375. All that was wrong with it was the night sites were dimmed and it needed a new RSA.
Sell it and buy a Slightly Used Gen 3 Glock 19 with serial Number Prefix F through N....thats about 6 years of Glock 19's that work perfect.
This is not such good advice IMHO. Cheaper, less of a crap shoot, and quicker to fix your Glock with an FRE.
Install the Apex parts and make sure you clean out your extractor and FPS area.
If that doesn't work, it sounds like you have an M&P that works great. Do more dry fire with it. Remove the backstrap. An M&P without a backstrap is very gen 4 Glock-ish.
Shoot more and quit worrying about it. The brass comes out of the gun reliably? Good enough.
People wanting custom 1911-type extraction and ejection should... purchase ... a custom.. 1911....
First thing I would do is to contact Glock. Even though they are in denial I would still make them aware of the issue. Also, since you don't mention it, it would be great to hear exactly what ammo you were using.
Then I would contact APEX and get their fix. Thus far every case that I have heard of where someone bough their components the problems went away.
Well, Apex parts didn't fix my Glock...Stopped the BTF, But introduced a new problem.. double feeds. After following Apex's instructions for fitting the extractor, it still did it about every 200rnds or so... Apex parts aren't the fix all everyone thinks they are, They'll fix most Glocks, But there are some that they won't fix unless you want to dump more money into it. And at some point, you have to ask if it's worth it... I've long since gotten rid of it.. It's a shame, I liked it, shot it decently. But after trying 3 extractors,, (Glock non-dip, Lone Wolf , Apex) one 10% stronger mag spring, 1 ejector, 2slb's later I gave up....
CrazyFingers
04-07-14, 08:35
Shoot more and quit worrying about it. The brass comes out of the gun reliably? Good enough.
People wanting custom 1911-type extraction and ejection should... purchase ... a custom.. 1911....
Seriously?
Ignore this poster.
I have a late-model Gen 3 G19 that had similar ejection issues (weak, erratic, and more stovepipes than I felt comfortable with). I installed the 30274 ejector, the Apex FRE, and the non-LCI bearing. This was a shotgun approach that other users had reported success with. My ejection issues have been completely solved.
Obvious comments:
Yes, the gun should have been 100% out of the box.
Yes, I probably should have contacted Glock first to give them a chance to address the issue. However, after seeing the response other posters received from Glock, I chose to try to address the issues myself. Still, since I didn't call them, I cannot jump up Glock's ass about my specific issue, that wouldn't be fair.
No, I shouldn't have had to put 3rd party parts in my gun. But it did fix the issue.
Your gun, your call, but at least there are a few different options available to you.
Contact Glock Warranty and tell them you want them to pay for shipping your gun back to them. They did it for me and after the second trip back to GA they replaced my 17Gen4 with a new one. They called me and told me they could not fix it. Customer service was excellent.
Last month I purchased my first Glock, a fourth gen 19, with the intent of making it my primary carry piece.
First of all, I would ditch any band-aid solutions with aftermarket parts. If modern service type pistol intended for self defense purpose is not working properly in factory configuration, then it is not suitable for this use. Leave tuning parts for competition and range fun. This leaves two options:
1. Get Glock CS to fix your pistol.
2. If 1. is not possible (or you are not confident with Glock any more) get yourself product that can be trusted.
Ad. 1 Try shooting some more with your Glock before sending it back, preferably with full power ammo. They should work straight from the box, but recoil system (and other parts) needs some time to "take set" into working parameters.
Ad. 2 My biased advice is to get HK - in this case either P30 or P2000 (I think P2000 is more suitable for EDC CCW). I have Gen4 Glock 17 that so far is flawless for me (use in competition), but I feel more confident with HK in my holster.
First of all, I would ditch any band-aid solutions with aftermarket parts. If modern service type pistol intended for self defense purpose is not working properly in factory configuration, then it is not suitable for this use. Leave tuning parts for competition and range fun.
Yes. What I took away from my experience is that Glock can no longer be trusted to provide me with a functional pistol. The Apex extractor fixed my problem, I was satisfied with the results. More importantly, the guy that bought the POS from me was satisfied with it.
I believe HK will give you the most consistent ejection pattern. You should give it a try if you're looking for reliability and you shoot it we'll.
brickboy240
04-07-14, 12:04
For 65 dollars and maybe 15 minutes at the kitchen table...the Apex part fixed MY troublesome G19.
I am at well over 2k rounds through it after the Apex extractor and still...not one piece of brass anywhere near my face.
..worth a try...
-brickboy240
Voodoo_Man
04-07-14, 12:07
I've had an apex in my gen4 g19 for a while, maybe 10k rounds? maybe more.
I'd say that it didn't completely fix the problem, I get one in the face, once in a while, but nothing too serious.
The g19 is still my daily carry.
Short answer: PPQ
Or if you want to make a hobby of dinking with your Glock on issues which the factory should have addressed, then follow some of the other advice given here. And you'll still worrying it may resurface down the road.
Path is clear to me, and aGlock shooting friend who shot my PPQ made the switch as well just based on ergos and accuracy.. Its just easy to shoot well.
Sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
gtmtnbiker98
04-07-14, 12:44
Always surprises me how Glock continues to get a 'free pass' and that it is socially acceptable to buy 3rd party components in order to get a Glock to function reliably. If a gun doesn't run out the box, then I would not own it. Period. My tolerance is absolute zero for guns destined for personal protection and duty use that exhibit any functional/design issues.
If the worse that can be said about HK is "crappy trigger" and "price," then rock on. At least they function as designed - out of the box.
The Walther PPQ is an outstanding choice as well; however, caution should be noted given their recent move to Umarex support here stateside and the availability of spare parts and magazines.
Psalms144.1
04-07-14, 12:56
OP - BTDT, on my SIXTH G19 right now since 2010. Why still here:
1. M&P - MIGHT be fixed now (especially the new LEO sku), but wrong sized. FS is too big, Compact is too small, trigger is still MEH, IMHO. And, I'm with you in that I don't find any of their backstraps to be comfortable for me - small makes the overall grip too small; large feels like someone taped a golf ball to the back of the pistol; medium is just "wrong" for me, somehow.
2. HK - best bet if you're looking for 100% reliability. But, not size efficient (my P2000 is G19 sized, loses capacity and barrel length). DA/SA trigger is possibly the worst in the universe, LEM trigger is nice and very "street safe," but takes quite a bit of training to get used to. Bore axis is on the high-side, which makes a fairly heavy pistol feel "flippy" and makes it significantly harder to run fast, for me. Grip on the P2000 is "skinny" and poorly textured, have to grip the crap out of it to keep it in place in rapid fire. P30 grip FEELS great, but the pistol is even bigger (G17 sized grip for 15 round capacity). Any HK is VERY expensive. Aftermarket options for the P30 are OK, for the P2000, very limited.
3. Sig - getting there. I still have concerns about their overall QC, but they seem to be over the worst of their "rough patch." Very accurate and soft shooting. VERY HEAVY. Limited capacity. Trigger in DA/SA ranges from pretty good to pretty bad, from pistol to pistol, but most will work their way into useable or better. Very expensive.
4. CZ - the new "wunderkind" - size efficiency close to G19 (P01 loses one round and is a little smaller, P07 gains a round - if you can jackhammer it into the magazine - but is a little bigger than the G19), but heavy. Even the "lightweight" polymer P07 weighs in at 27 ounces. Aftermarket options (especially for sights) suck. Triggers tend to be useable, but most people who rave about the platform have had extensive trigger work done to their pistols.
5. FN - don't know anything about them, personally, but have seen reports of "dead trigger" issues - not awe inspiring
6. Walther - Accurate and reliable, from all I've seen, a very nice pistols. Yes, pistols. They seem to market a new model every flippin' year, but people are still scrambling for parts and accessories from the original run(s). Also tough to find aftermarket options for. Also a victim of the "short slide, long grip" design school which oversizes the HARDEST part of the pistol to conceal.
Who have I missed? Not sure. Bottom line - at this point in the game, there simply is no free lunch. You either need to drop $1K+ on an HK set up and decide you can live with their marginal triggers and limited sight options, or you can spend $70 on parts from Apex and hopefully fix your G19. And, before I get painted as a Glock fanboi, you can search my posts for my history with Glock and my struggles to get one that works from 2010 to present; BUT they still seem to provide the best combination of size/accuracy/reliability/cost effectiveness for a defensive pistol. YMMV, but that's where I've gotten to in my struggles...
Regards,
Kevin
Voodoo_Man
04-07-14, 13:14
Always surprises me how Glock continues to get a 'free pass' and that it is socially acceptable to buy 3rd party components in order to get a Glock to function reliably. If a gun doesn't run out the box, then I would not own it. Period. My tolerance is absolute zero for guns destined for personal protection and duty use that exhibit any functional/design issues.
Just to get this straight, you have an issue with a very small segment of one particular generation of glock, that even though has a small issue, still functions properly.
I've posted about this several times, I have 6 gen 4 glocks. The only one that threw brass in my face is the one I carry and that was fixed by one aftermarket part. What exactly is wrong with that?
Straight Shooter
04-07-14, 13:22
BEFORE you do ANYTHING rash or expensive...try..at least TRY..to see if a new 30274 ejector will fix the prob. Was $12 SHIPPED from Midway, and cured my G17 PERFECTLY now for well over a thousand rounds.
gtmtnbiker98
04-07-14, 13:25
Just to get this straight, you have an issue with a very small segment of one particular generation of glock, that even though has a small issue, still functions properly.
I've posted about this several times, I have 6 gen 4 glocks. The only one that threw brass in my face is the one I carry and that was fixed by one aftermarket part. What exactly is wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing wrong. The point that I'm trying to make, brand loyalties aside, is that if any other manufacturer had near the problem(s) for as long as these have existed, the pitch forks would be out for the manufacturer. I mean the issues have been a little more widespread then most would be willing to admit, so much so that Apex is doing very well at fixing many of these issues.
Voodoo_Man
04-07-14, 13:53
Absolutely nothing wrong. The point that I'm trying to make, brand loyalties aside, is that if any other manufacturer had near the problem(s) for as long as these have existed, the pitch forks would be out for the manufacturer. I mean the issues have been a little more widespread then most would be willing to admit, so much so that Apex is doing very well at fixing many of these issues.
I don't see them being widespread, I have a g19 one letter above and it has no issues.
There is nothing of the sort, in terms of pitchforks. I have had other brands, and regardless of what very small and isolated problems the gen4's had for a few moments, its not even remotely close to the issues of other brands.
BEFORE you do ANYTHING rash or expensive...try..at least TRY..to see if a new 30274 ejector will fix the prob. Was $12 SHIPPED from Midway, and cured my G17 PERFECTLY now for well over a thousand rounds.
You might also check to see if there are any GSSF matches nearby. The on-site armorer replaced my ejector with the 30274 for free and fixed BTF issue for me.
jerrysimons
04-07-14, 16:24
OP - BTDT, on my SIXTH G19 right now since 2010. Why still here:
1. M&P - MIGHT be fixed now (especially the new LEO sku), but wrong sized. FS is too big, Compact is too small, trigger is still MEH, IMHO. And, I'm with you in that I don't find any of their backstraps to be comfortable for me - small makes the overall grip too small; large feels like someone taped a golf ball to the back of the pistol; medium is just "wrong" for me, somehow.
2. HK - best bet if you're looking for 100% reliability. But, not size efficient (my P2000 is G19 sized, loses capacity and barrel length). DA/SA trigger is possibly the worst in the universe, LEM trigger is nice and very "street safe," but takes quite a bit of training to get used to. Bore axis is on the high-side, which makes a fairly heavy pistol feel "flippy" and makes it significantly harder to run fast, for me. Grip on the P2000 is "skinny" and poorly textured, have to grip the crap out of it to keep it in place in rapid fire. P30 grip FEELS great, but the pistol is even bigger (G17 sized grip for 15 round capacity). Any HK is VERY expensive. Aftermarket options for the P30 are OK, for the P2000, very limited.
3. Sig - getting there. I still have concerns about their overall QC, but they seem to be over the worst of their "rough patch." Very accurate and soft shooting. VERY HEAVY. Limited capacity. Trigger in DA/SA ranges from pretty good to pretty bad, from pistol to pistol, but most will work their way into useable or better. Very expensive.
4. CZ - the new "wunderkind" - size efficiency close to G19 (P01 loses one round and is a little smaller, P07 gains a round - if you can jackhammer it into the magazine - but is a little bigger than the G19), but heavy. Even the "lightweight" polymer P07 weighs in at 27 ounces. Aftermarket options (especially for sights) suck. Triggers tend to be useable, but most people who rave about the platform have had extensive trigger work done to their pistols.
5. FN - don't know anything about them, personally, but have seen reports of "dead trigger" issues - not awe inspiring
6. Walther - Accurate and reliable, from all I've seen, a very nice pistols. Yes, pistols. They seem to market a new model every flippin' year, but people are still scrambling for parts and accessories from the original run(s). Also tough to find aftermarket options for. Also a victim of the "short slide, long grip" design school which oversizes the HARDEST part of the pistol to conceal.
Who have I missed? Not sure. Bottom line - at this point in the game, there simply is no free lunch. You either need to drop $1K+ on an HK set up and decide you can live with their marginal triggers and limited sight options, or you can spend $70 on parts from Apex and hopefully fix your G19. And, before I get painted as a Glock fanboi, you can search my posts for my history with Glock and my struggles to get one that works from 2010 to present; BUT they still seem to provide the best combination of size/accuracy/reliability/cost effectiveness for a defensive pistol. YMMV, but that's where I've gotten to in my struggles...
Regards,
Kevin
This is exactly how I feel.
My Gen 4 G19 got the Apex FRE and non LCI loaded bearing sp01176 (Gen 4 already had the 30274 ejector) right out of the box. Strong, consistent ejection so far (only 500rds). I know the Apex FRE is not going to cause problems so really you are only out $70 if it doesn't fix the problem, you have it nothing to lose IMO.
I have an Springfield XD9 Service model that has been 100% reliable over 5 years and more than 3000 rounds. I have moved on to M&P pistols and so far so good. If I were you I'd spend some time at a good gunsmith to tweek the extractor/ejector on your G19. Why give up so quickly if everything else about it you love?
Taken as a whole, have the Gen 4 G-19's been more problematic than the Gen 4 G-17's, or is it a toss-up?
I would very seriously consider the Apex FRE with non-LCI spring loaded bearing before throwing in the towel on Gen 4 Glocks. Every one I've owned had one of the Apex extractors and none of them exhibited any extraction issues even with a surefire x300 attached with weak or strong ammo.
Absolutely not! Contact Glock! Do not purchase any after market parts. Why pay $550+ for a new gun and later dish out another $50-60 to correct an issue that Glock should have already handled? <--rhetorical question :suicide: If anything.....ask Glock to purcahse and ship the Apex to you. ;) These glock issues are starting to make their way to the top of the forum page. good luck OP
Always surprises me how Glock continues to get a 'free pass' and that it is socially acceptable to buy 3rd party components in order to get a Glock to function reliably. If a gun doesn't run out the box, then I would not own it. Period. My tolerance is absolute zero for guns destined for personal protection and duty use that exhibit any functional/design issues.
:big_boss: ^ Exactly!! well said
I would wear glock out until they got it right. I know they can do it my new gen 4 glock 19 has over a 1000 round through it and it has been perfect up til now. Good luck.
Exhausted? Physically? Emotionally??
DAMMMMM, You asked a question and how many answers did you get?? You will get my little rant like everyone else, but you will get an answer at the bottom, like you asked for.
I am beginning to think every manufacture does have issues, and with a high volume of sales some issues are to be expected, should be minimal. I would buy based on quality and customer service. We pay our hard earned money and they should make any issues right. I still can't understand how some things get out their door and on shelves. Check out gun specific forums, and it seems like there are problems with everything.
It is partially our the consumers fault because we are willing to go after market and fix something ourselves that should have been made right to begin with! Guilty as charged. I believe some large manufactures get away with this because they have the market and they really don't give a shit anymore. I will only give them 1 opportunity to screw me, to many options out there.
After market parts should improve or enhance performance, functionality and reliability NOT be a fix for a problem the manufacturer should have had right to begin with or failed/refused to fix!
I have ad issues with Springfield, BCM, and Winchester, AND THEY MADE IT RIGHT. I will and did purchase again.
I have some older Glocks that run flawlessly, and I want a G19 Real bad, BUT with everything I am hearing I am afraid to buy one. I know SA XD does not get any love here, and honestly I have not run any of them as long as the Glock, YET, so time will tell.
I say pick what feels good in your hands, run the shit out of it, and if it performs keep it, and if not bury it in the safe, maybe try to fix it or get rid of it. Please be honest why you are getting rid of it.
So why are we here? Well, it's not to bash Glock or figure out a way to fix my 19 (I've written it off already). We're here because I'm exhausted. I don't really know what platform to turn to turn next.
I've shot M&P's for the past 5 years, and never had the accuracy issues many others had, and they were completely reliable. The one issue is it's about the only platform that doesn't work for me ergonomicly. It's a shame really, just about every gun I pick up points naturally for me, for some reason the M&P never would, and traing didn't help. Because of its permanent foreigness to my hand, I have no desire to go back to it, despite it's reliability.
So what's reliable anymore? Minus the M&P, just about everything works for me ergonomicly (the subjective side is out of the way), I need your help finding quality and reliability. Am I losing my mind or do quality control issues seem to be plaguing the handgun industry?
What do I do?
-Sig 226?
-HK P30?
-Beretta 92?
-CZ?
-"your suggestion here" Check out the Springfield XDS/XDM line. You may be pleasantly surprised
Lots of great input in the past 24 hours. I'd like to respond to a few comments now, and expand on them, as well as other comments, tomorrow when it's not so late.
I appreciate all of the input so far.
Before you start buying parts you could just contact Glock
they have excellent customer service
I will most certainly reach out to them, and I'll report my experience after I've done so. This will be my first step rather than spending money on parts that should've been correct out of the box. However I have no qualms supporting a quality company like Apex at the appropriate time.
Shoot more and quit worrying about it. The brass comes out of the gun reliably? Good enough.
People wanting custom 1911-type extraction and ejection should... purchase ... a custom.. 1911....
You might be on to something. Although I suspect unintentionally.
I believe HK will give you the most consistent ejection pattern. You should give it a try if you're looking for reliability and you shoot it we'll.
Montrala mentioned this as well. I'm seriously considering them.
Always surprises me how Glock continues to get a 'free pass' and that it is socially acceptable to buy 3rd party components in order to get a Glock to function reliably. If a gun doesn't run out the box, then I would not own it. Period. My tolerance is absolute zero for guns destined for personal protection and duty use that exhibit any functional/design issues.
If the worse that can be said about HK is "crappy trigger" and "price," then rock on. At least they function as designed - out of the box.
I can't wait to address this one tomorrow (physically exhausted this time).
BEFORE you do ANYTHING rash or expensive...try..at least TRY..to see if a new 30274 ejector will fix the prob. Was $12 SHIPPED from Midway, and cured my G17 PERFECTLY now for well over a thousand rounds.
So that we're on the same page, you're suggesting I remove the current 30274 ejector already in my gun and replace it with a new one?
Exhausted? Physically? Emotionally??
Emotionally.
Check out the Springfield XDS/XDM line. You may be pleasantly surprised[/B]
You know, I'm honestly up for looking at anything at this point. I'll rent one at the range and report my impression back to you.
turnburglar
04-08-14, 02:15
I don't have a metric ton of trigger time on a singular platform, like I'm sure some of the members here: but I have taken a firearm into harms way and know what it feels like to be uncomfortable because you don't have absolute faith in your weapon. The one I am mentioning specificly is the Beretta M9 (92?). Iv just had nothing but trouble in the 1000 or so rounds I ran through it mainly due to environmental conditions. The open slide just let every grain of sand into the gun and a little bit of water gumbed it up.
Now on the civilian side of things I own 2 xds. The xd9, and a xdm45. The 9 has about 3k through it and the 45 only 500. What I found weird when I got on this board was the lack of love for the xd. So I did a real amount of searching and the only REAL accounts I could find for the lack of love was less armorer support and the original xd had finish issues and the mag springs might need replacement after 1000 rounds. I say might cause I have yet to have any issues mag related or other wise from my xd9.
Recently I bought a glock 19 through my lgs blue label program. I'm hoping that the 19 will replace my xdm45 for ccw duty. Even with the 9 round mag, the glock is just barely taller in the grip. The M is also built like an MRAP and is substantially heavier than the 19. I also appreciate how the 19 has the perfect balance between capacity, grip size, and compactness.
We will see once I get the 19 under some serious range time to see if I get the btf issues that seem so rampant. If I do I'll probably stick with the proven track record my springfields have done for me.
As IG eluded to, Apex and test on...I'd take it to Smyrna, but I'm local. Curious to learn of Glock's response. You may want to document with video.
Sell it and buy a Slightly Used Gen 3 Glock 19 with serial Number Prefix F through N....thats about 6 years of Glock 19's that work perfect.
This is not such good advice IMHO. Cheaper, less of a crap shoot, and quicker to fix your Glock with an FRE.
Actually that's excellent advice, IF you can't get it sorted, and echoed by LAV.
This thread confuses the crap out of me. The gun shoots the gun extracts and the gun ejects. Every gun I have ever shot has hit me with brass in one way or the other. From tired limp wristing to bouncing off the wall and hitting me repeatedly in the side of the face. I really don't see this as a issue. If the reason I am shooting is for supposed training for a life and death situation a tiny little piece of metal hitting me in the face at a couple mph should not be even noticed. Maybe I'm used to it. You ever cut metal before? It gets much hotter than brass and showers your whole body with shavings. That's what happens I don't have time or the will to even acknowledge it.
I know my post doesn't make much sense as I'm am not as smart as most here. But seriously I'm confused at what the problem is. If my aim is good and if the Glocks barrel send the lead where the sites tell it to, then it will do it's job, if I am fast enough to shoot first. Idk.
This thread confuses the crap out of me. The gun shoots the gun extracts and the gun ejects. Every gun I have ever shot has hit me with brass in one way or the other. From tired limp wristing to bouncing off the wall and hitting me repeatedly in the side of the face. I really don't see this as a issue. If the reason I am shooting is for supposed training for a life and death situation a tiny little piece of metal hitting me in the face at a couple mph should not be even noticed. Maybe I'm used to it. You ever cut metal before? It gets much hotter than brass and showers your whole body with shavings. That's what happens I don't have time or the will to even acknowledge it.
I know my post doesn't make much sense as I'm am not as smart as most here. But seriously I'm confused at what the problem is. If my aim is good and if the Glocks barrel send the lead where the sites tell it to, then it will do it's job, if I am fast enough to shoot first. Idk.
Quick response to this before I head into the office. Coincidentally, I have cut metal. I've also done a fair amount of welding (mostly as a hobby). What I walked away with from those experiences is that hot metal can ruin your day if you're not wearing the proper protective gear, especially around your face.
I see extraction/ejection problems presenting two potentially catastrophic issues. First, a firearm needs to consistently clear brass from the chamber so that it can feed the next round reliably. Second, if in a self defense situation the first piece of brass hits you in the eye without eye protection, well need I really say more?
If you don't have a problem with these potential issues, I have a Glock 19 I'll sell you for a smokin price.
Nothing is wrong with Glock's reliability. The only issue is erratic ejection.
I'll give you an example of why it bothers some but not all.... Sunday I went shooing with a friend who just got a new 3rd gen 19. He has almost zero experience with firearms. So little experience that he was causing malfunctions with his grip thumb clamping the slide when he would shoot. He thought the pistol was wrong until I showed him what he was doing. After I finally got him to stop doing that, he continued shooting, all the while having brass thrown all around his noggin. Did he notice or care? No. He was happy he could shoot his gun right.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that wether or not the BTF bothers someone, directly reflects how much they shoot and their experience level.
This thread confuses the crap out of me. The gun shoots the gun extracts and the gun ejects. Every gun I have ever shot has hit me with brass in one way or the other. From tired limp wristing to bouncing off the wall and hitting me repeatedly in the side of the face. I really don't see this as a issue. If the reason I am shooting is for supposed training for a life and death situation a tiny little piece of metal hitting me in the face at a couple mph should not be even noticed. Maybe I'm used to it. You ever cut metal before? It gets much hotter than brass and showers your whole body with shavings. That's what happens I don't have time or the will to even acknowledge it.
I know my post doesn't make much sense as I'm am not as smart as most here. But seriously I'm confused at what the problem is. If my aim is good and if the Glocks barrel send the lead where the sites tell it to, then it will do it's job, if I am fast enough to shoot first. Idk.
How well do you think you can make follow up shots when hot brass is trying to go into your mouth, eyes and down your neck? Most of use don't always have shooting glasses on when walking the streets and that is the issue.
C4
I guess what I'm trying to say is that wether or not the BTF bothers someone, directly reflects how much they shoot and their experience level.
BTF should bother EVERYONE (as it is incorrect and there is a larger problem with the gun). Glock's have always had erratic ejection (nothing new here). When that erratic ejection turns to 5, 6 and 7 o'clock, that is where we have a serious issue.
C4
I don't see them being widespread, I have a g19 one letter above and it has no issues.
There is nothing of the sort, in terms of pitchforks. I have had other brands, and regardless of what very small and isolated problems the gen4's had for a few moments, its not even remotely close to the issues of other brands.
It is pretty big now. When I ask trainers what they are seeing, it is either Glock's malfunctions or BTF. Do my Glock's do it? No. Do I get ones in my shop that do? Yep.
I think Gtmn98's point was that Glock should fix the issue (not you spending money to fix it). I would agree with that.
C4
CrazyFingers
04-08-14, 08:20
Nothing is wrong with Glock's reliability. The only issue is erratic ejection.
Actually, with many of these problematic G19s (Gen3 & 4), the erratic ejection is a symptom of a larger problem. Watch some of the slow motion videos of these affected pistols and you'll see what's really happening. The weapon is not reliably holding the shell throughout the extraction and ejection process. The brass typically comes out of the chamber, and then bobbles around loose in the chamber. Most of the time, the inertia of the extraction and/or the following round in the magazine is enough to force the spent brass out of the chamber and, well, somewhere else. But not always, and this is what I and others have seen. In these instances, the brass does NOT clear the chamber, and causes a stoppage when the slide closes, either stove-piping or just getting smashed back into the breech along with the fresh round. This is a serious issue with a firearm intended for self-defense. Or anything, really.
I had over a dozen stoppages in my first 500 rounds with my late model Gen3 G19. This is something wrong with Glock's reliability. Installing the Apex FRE, the 30274 ejector, and the non-LCI bearing solved these issues for me and some others, providing robust and reliable extraction and ejection.
I do not understand the "it's just how Glocks are, don't worry about it" mentality. None of my other pistols exhibit this kind of erratic ejection.
Voodoo_Man
04-08-14, 08:35
It is pretty big now. When I ask trainers what they are seeing, it is either Glock's malfunctions or BTF. Do my Glock's do it? No. Do I get ones in my shop that do? Yep.
I think Gtmn98's point was that Glock should fix the issue (not you spending money to fix it). I would agree with that.
C4
Pretty much everyone I know shoots glocks and owns glocks (and not just one or two, most of us have at least a half dozen). My dept only has glocks, including thousands of gen4's (currently being issued to rookies) and when I speak with the armorers I am friendly with they do not see the brass to face as an issue. They see other failures more often, like broken firing pins and cracked slides (right from the factory) but not brass to face.
I know of three, counting mine, that have had the brass to face issue.
So, I cannot say I agree with others on this.
Sorry to hear that about your 19--i've been fortunate enough to not experience these problems i've read about in any of my Glocks.
As to your replacement:
-Definitely not the Beretta 92 f/s. That's probably the most fickle of any of my handguns.
-The CZ 75's i've owned have always been pretty reliable, and they're cheap. I typically keep one in my truck, but it's a steel model. No experience with the polymer variants if you're looking for something a little more light weight.
-The Sig 226 is always a nice shooter, but it'll be heavier. And it's a lot of money for a carry gun that'll get abused (assuming that's your rationale for purchase).
I've had really good luck on the FNX-9 guns (liked 'em so much I bought an FNX-45 Tactical to go with it). They're cheap, they work, and they're not too fugly. Comes with 3 mags, and can regularly be purchased for $400 or less. Given your circumstances, i'd check one of those out.
MSparks909
04-08-14, 08:59
Quick response to this before I head into the office. Coincidentally, I have cut metal. I've also done a fair amount of welding (mostly as a hobby). What I walked away with from those experiences is that hot metal can ruin your day if you're not wearing the proper protective gear, especially around your face.
I see extraction/ejection problems presenting two potentially catastrophic issues. First, a firearm needs to consistently clear brass from the chamber so that it can feed the next round reliably. Second, if in a self defense situation the first piece of brass hits you in the eye without eye protection, well need I really say more?
If you don't have a problem with these potential issues, I have a Glock 19 I'll sell you for a smokin price.
So are you going to try to fix your Glock with the Apex parts or just sell it?
Also, as has been mentioned, the XDm 9 series is still a valid competitor in this market, albeit a little too much mag capacity which makes printing an issue at times.
If you're dumping the Glock, send me a PM. I'd be interested.
PPQ would get my vote as an alternate platform to evaluate for your needs.
Pretty much everyone I know shoots glocks and owns glocks (and not just one or two, most of us have at least a half dozen). My dept only has glocks, including thousands of gen4's (currently being issued to rookies) and when I speak with the armorers I am friendly with they do not see the brass to face as an issue. They see other failures more often, like broken firing pins and cracked slides (right from the factory) but not brass to face.
I know of three, counting mine, that have had the brass to face issue.
So, I cannot say I agree with others on this.
Remember that instructors I speak with see THOUSANDS of Glock's. These same folks talk to high up management folks at Glock (as well). The problem is real.
My guess is that about 30% of Glock's are affected. I also believe that this problem has been ongoing since the EARLY generations of Glock's, but since there was no internet, there was no real way to track it. The earliest (publicized) issue was the NYPD phase 3 problems, but I think it went on way before that.
C4
Click on the image below for the video
http://SSEquine.net/glockbtf.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzmop7PlUxQ)
WickedWillis
04-08-14, 11:17
This issue has been going on for quite awhile, and Glock said it was fixed. Obviously not true. Both my G19, and G17 Gen 4's have the correct extractor and I have never had BTF with the 17. Although, when I am shooting some cheap ammo every once in awhile I will get it on my G19. Bounces off the top of my hat and that's it. I have never had the issue with Speer gold dots, or Hornady critical duty (The defense ammo I shoot) having any BTF issues.
I primarily stick to the 9mm Glocks. I did have a guy at the local range tell me, when I was shooting my friends G22 gen 4, that I should be wearing a hat and a face shield because I was about to have my face raped by brass. I tried to explain that it's primarily the 9mm Glock issues. So he watched me shoot through a couple magazines, and it never happened. He then told me he wasn't a fan of handguns not made in america, and that the XD is superior to Glock in every way. It was adorable. One of those deals where you have to just smile and nod. Glock has plenty of internet armchair haters out there, some of which I really don't think have ever had this issue but love to jump all over something anti-Glock.
As a shooter, I probably will not buy another Glock from here on in, but I do enjoy, and trust the two that I own. Maybe I'd look at a single stack 9mm if it ever gets made, but I'm very happy with my S&W Shield for my summer carry gun, so maybe not. I am moving towards HK's for my handguns. I recently purchased an HK45 and I'm pretty damn smitten. I think a P30 is on the horizon as soon as some funds get freed up. With your Glock, it really sounds like you are completely done with them. I would contact Glock, see if they can help to make it right before you sell it, or trade it. It could help add value to a sale anyway. Good luck.
I was able to fix my Glock problems by replacing the problematic parts with a Walther PPQ. No issues since.
Doc Safari
04-08-14, 11:29
I also believe that this problem has been ongoing since the EARLY generations of Glock's, but since there was no internet, there was no real way to track it. The earliest (publicized) issue was the NYPD phase 3 problems, but I think it went on way before that.
C4
I can vouch for the BTF problem being around for years. I've owned Glocks off and on since 1992, and it seems to be hit or miss: your pistol either has the problem or it doesn't.
Glock had better wake up to the fact that "word has gotten around now". I envision a time when another offering knocks Glock off its throne in the not-to-distant future.
Like you say, in the days before the internet Glock could ride the mystique of being "the plastic gun" that never needed maintenance. The world has changed since then: different ammo types, different training practices, different tactical realities (like lights and dry-firing). Glock is stuck in the 1980's.
Glock needs to rethink its entire concept....and fast.
brickboy240
04-08-14, 11:56
Although my G19 was "fixed" by the Apex part...the whole debacle really wore me out.
The M&P now has a barrel that gives decent accuracy and a somewhat better trigger BUT the stainless slides are rusting.
I have thought long about getting comfortable with d/a=s/a again and just sucking it up and going to the P-30 and learning to like it. At least the P-30 has none of the issues that plague the Glocks and M&Ps. It just might be worth living with d/a-s/a to avoid the warts of the other two...who knows?
-brickboy240
Coal Dragger
04-08-14, 12:06
I was able to fix my Glock problems by replacing the problematic parts with a Walther PPQ. No issues since.
That does sound like a good surefire way to fix the issue of erratic Glock ejection. From what I understand there are two really good parts kits offered by German companies that fix the erratic ejection issues with Glocks. The first one as mentioned is made by this company called Walther, part number PPQ M1 or M2; the other is an outfit called Heckler & Koch and I think the part number prefix you are looking for is P30 although there are more small variations and sub groupings of parts kits they evidently all work quite well.
WickedWillis
04-08-14, 12:10
Although my G19 was "fixed" by the Apex part...the whole debacle really wore me out.
The M&P now has a barrel that gives decent accuracy and a somewhat better trigger BUT the stainless slides are rusting.
I have thought long about getting comfortable with d/a=s/a again and just sucking it up and going to the P-30 and learning to like it. At least the P-30 has none of the issues that plague the Glocks and M&Ps. It just might be worth living with d/a-s/a to avoid the warts of the other two...who knows?
-brickboy240
I never had any issues with the M&P accuracy (Minus the compact, worst compact in the industry IMO), but those SL barrels that Grant sells are pretty slick. I have also heard that they have re-done their triggers. I love the trigger on the Shield, so if it's similar, I'm sure I would like it.
I carry a gen 2 G19 so worries with that one but my Gen4 G17 BTF issue was cleared up with an Apex extractor. When I do shoot it, there's always a x300 on it; no issues so far.
turnburglar
04-08-14, 12:16
Remember that instructors I speak with see THOUSANDS of Glock's. These same folks talk to high up management folks at Glock (as well). The problem is real.
My guess is that about 30% of Glock's are affected. I also believe that this problem has been ongoing since the EARLY generations of Glock's, but since there was no internet, there was no real way to track it. The earliest (publicized) issue was the NYPD phase 3 problems, but I think it went on way before that.
C4
Grant,
Would you say that some glocks never get affected, and some will no matter what?
To me that sounds like a tolerance issue at the manufactuer level, but that's putting on my assume hat.
Here is some additional info from the "ask the SME" section of the forum that may help those trying to make a decision on what 9mm pistol to choose. At this point I don't believe anyone knows for sure if the BTF issue is 100% fixed on current production guns. IMHO, probably not and may never be , but some % run just fine from the factory with zero BTF issues and not needing the Apex mod. I will be going to the 2014 NRA Annual Meeting & Exhibits on the 26th and will let you know if I see anything new from HK in the way of 9mm pistols.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?142850-Gen-4-Glocks
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?102115-Walther-PPQ
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?132293-Glock-17-Gen4
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?136220-H-amp-K-P30
Voodoo_Man
04-08-14, 12:43
Remember that instructors I speak with see THOUSANDS of Glock's. These same folks talk to high up management folks at Glock (as well). The problem is real.
My guess is that about 30% of Glock's are affected. I also believe that this problem has been ongoing since the EARLY generations of Glock's, but since there was no internet, there was no real way to track it. The earliest (publicized) issue was the NYPD phase 3 problems, but I think it went on way before that.
C4
I guess its the 30% of Glocks I've never seen, aside from three that I have. From all the Glocks I've had contact with, and every Glock the guys I train with have contact with (teams, mil/le, etc) my glock is probably the least used (at around 25k+ rounds) and they don't ever see this problem.
My question is, if it is such a huge problem, how come the people shooting the guns don't see it?
I never had any issues with the M&P accuracy (Minus the compact, worst compact in the industry IMO), but those SL barrels that Grant sells are pretty slick. I have also heard that they have re-done their triggers. I love the trigger on the Shield, so if it's similar, I'm sure I would like it.
I replaced the trigger in my M&P 9L with a DCAEK...makes for a nice trigger just as Randy Lee said it would. I also had accuracy issues with that gun and went from 6-7 inch groups (25yd sandbag rest) to 1.5 inch groups by replacing the barrel with a hand-fitted Storm Lake barrel.
Grant,
Would you say that some glocks never get affected, and some will no matter what?
To me that sounds like a tolerance issue at the manufactuer level, but that's putting on my assume hat.
From what we have seen on THIS FORUM, they either have issues in the beginning or in the around 3-5K range (or not at all).
C4
My question is, if it is such a huge problem, how come the people shooting the guns don't see it?
As we see all the time (even on this forum), the gun is kicking brass to the face and they are "ok" with it (never say anything). The other thing we see is "malfunction or BTF" amnesia. Instructor; "Do you realize that your gun is hitting you in the face with brace?" Student; "Uhm, nope."
Are there large groups of Glock's that are seen together (like a PD or SO) where their guns run with no BTF? Yep, seen it (just like what you have stated). On the flip side, I also see what I see.
C4
gtmtnbiker98
04-08-14, 13:11
I guess its the 30% of Glocks I've never seen, aside from three that I have. From all the Glocks I've had contact with, and every Glock the guys I train with have contact with (teams, mil/le, etc) my glock is probably the least used (at around 25k+ rounds) and they don't ever see this problem.
My question is, if it is such a huge problem, how come the people shooting the guns don't see it?
What LE department is seeing 25,000+ on Glocks and are they hiring? Just curious, I'm an LEO and train and train with several in Ohio and Northern KY and I've NEVER seen a department that shoots > 1,000 rounds a year and that's SRT. Much to their detriment, I might add. Your typical street cop is lucky to see 200-300 rounds per year that is department issued. Many departments see even less, especially with recent budget constraints. I can count on one hand how many cops I know that are 'gun guys.' Cops in my area simply will not shoot, they live with this false belief that when the ball "drops" that they will some how magically rise to the occasion.
Glock has a problem, admit it or not, it has been seen on this forum and elsewhere. I can't get through a training session and/or a local match without hearing or seeing at least one issue with a Gen4 Glock (issues big and small).
Tzintzuntzan
04-08-14, 14:36
I'm intrigued. I was thinking about picking up a new G17 but this has got me a little concerned about having to dump it if it starts having BTF issues.
Remember that instructors I speak with see THOUSANDS of Glock's. These same folks talk to high up management folks at Glock (as well). The problem is real.
My guess is that about 30% of Glock's are affected. I also believe that this problem has been ongoing since the EARLY generations of Glock's, but since there was no internet, there was no real way to track it. The earliest (publicized) issue was the NYPD phase 3 problems, but I think it went on way before that.
C4
I've personally seen and shot gen 2 glocks that ejected erratically. No btf, but otherwise all over the place. Like Grant said, I don't think this is a new issue.
At this point I chalk it up to tolerance stacking. It doesn't take much beyond a worn mag, crappy ammo, or any number of things to start to show itself. I have a gen 3 from 2009 that ejects consistently. I have a 1992 gen 2 19 that is less consistent but has yet to hit me with btf. Got both used. Luck of the draw I suppose.
Voodoo_Man
04-08-14, 15:02
What LE department is seeing 25,000+ on Glocks and are they hiring? Just curious, I'm an LEO and train and train with several in Ohio and Northern KY and I've NEVER seen a department that shoots > 1,000 rounds a year and that's SRT. Much to their detriment, I might add. Your typical street cop is lucky to see 200-300 rounds per year that is department issued. Many departments see even less, especially with recent budget constraints. I can count on one hand how many cops I know that are 'gun guys.' Cops in my area simply will not shoot, they live with this false belief that when the ball "drops" that they will some how magically rise to the occasion.
Glock has a problem, admit it or not, it has been seen on this forum and elsewhere. I can't get through a training session and/or a local match without hearing or seeing at least one issue with a Gen4 Glock (issues big and small).
I'm not posting it online, opsec and all that. We have something like 8-9k glocks of various gen's and currently issuing gen4 glocks. We have about 5-6k "active duty" glocks in service and are given 100 rounds a day, mon-fri, as long as we show up to the range. You can do the math (I take advantage of this as much as I can).
gtmtnbiker98
04-08-14, 16:57
I'm not posting it online, opsec and all that. We have something like 8-9k glocks of various gen's and currently issuing gen4 glocks. We have about 5-6k "active duty" glocks in service and are given 100 rounds a day, mon-fri, as long as we show up to the range. You can do the math (I take advantage of this as much as I can).
I'd have lead poisoning!
Voodoo_Man
04-08-14, 17:01
I'd have lead poisoning!
Tell me about it, sorta like a kid in a candy store.
Tell me about it, sorta like a kid in a candy store.
You can shoot 100 rounds a day, a paycheck, and I'm guessing other goodies too? Send me a PM. I can start tomorrow.
Another vote for a PPQ. I own one and it is my carry piece. I like and shoot it so much that I sent it to Robar for coating in order make cleaning easier.
I also had a Glock 36 that was nothing but problems. However, my well worn police issue Glock 22 Gen 2 is reliable, accurate, and consistent but I'd still rather use a PPQ.
Voodoo_Man
04-08-14, 17:58
You can shoot 100 rounds a day, a paycheck, and I'm guessing other goodies too? Send me a PM. I can start tomorrow.
Well I mean, they give me a lot of interesting things. We are always hiring ;)
Last month I purchased my first Glock, a fourth gen 19, with the intent of making it my primary carry piece. My rationale behind the purchase was that it pointed very naturally, was a great size for my hand and body shape/size, and in my rental experience, proved to be very accurate. After several years of reading about the various ejection issues Glock 19's & 17's have exhibited, I was diligent in making sure it was of late manufacture and contained all of the latest parts (30274 ejector, etc.).
After dry firing for a couple weeks I made it to the range Saturday to begin developing a more intamite understanding of its behavior under live fire, and to establish its reliability. I brought 400 rounds of practice ammo of various manufacture, and 100 rounds of my carry/defense ammo.
With my first box of practice ammo down range I was already feeling at home behind the new platform. Groups tightened, things were becoming natural, quickly. Suddenly I felt a piece of brass roll down the back of my head, neck, and into the hood of my sweatshirt. Hmmm... that's weird I thought to myself. Maybe I just forgot what it's like to shoot indoors and it's bouncing off the lane divider. Back to blasting. Thirty rounds later... wait a sec, did brass just roll down my right hand and forearm? Oh my God, am I having ejection issues?
I made sure the Glock was aimed safely down range and decided to watch the ejection pattern rather than focus on speed and accuracy drills. Brass was ejecting in all sorts of directions. With all types of ammo 115, 124, and 147 grain, including my quality defense ammunition and +p rounds. About 50% of the time it ejected in the correct direction, albeit weakly. Otherwise, as someone else once described, it looked like a sprinkler. It's the first time I've seen brass eject forward.
My parting gift? Hot brass to the face, just below my eye pro on my upper cheekbone. Scary to think of the potential ramifications if that had happened in a self defense situation without eye protection.
So why are we here? Well, it's not to bash Glock or figure out a way to fix my 19 (I've written it off already). We're here because I'm exhausted. I don't really know what platform to turn to turn next.
I've shot M&P's for the past 5 years, and never had the accuracy issues many others had, and they were completely reliable. The one issue is it's about the only platform that doesn't work for me ergonomicly. It's a shame really, just about every gun I pick up points naturally for me, for some reason the M&P never would, and traing didn't help. Because of its permanent foreigness to my hand, I have no desire to go back to it, despite it's reliability.
So what's reliable anymore? Minus the M&P, just about everything works for me ergonomicly (the subjective side is out of the way), I need your help finding quality and reliability. Am I losing my mind or do quality control issues seem to be plaguing the handgun industry?
What do I do?
-Sig 226?
-HK P30?
-Beretta 92?
-CZ?
-"your suggestion here"
Please, help.
Too bad you do not like the ergonomics of the M&P pistols. They are great handguns in my experience and I prefer them over Glocks. I've owned the M&P9, M&P40, G19, and G23 (also shot the compact and full size variants). M&P's just feel nicer and better for me, but thats a personal preference.
Other suggestions I would add is the XD/XDm pistols, and also the HK USP.
WickedWillis
04-10-14, 10:43
Too bad you do not like the ergonomics of the M&P pistols. They are great handguns in my experience and I prefer them over Glocks. I've owned the M&P9, M&P40, G19, and G23 (also shot the compact and full size variants). M&P's just feel nicer and better for me, but thats a personal preference.
Other suggestions I would add is the XD/XDm pistols, and also the HK USP.
The XD/XDM would be a step backwards from the Glocks and M&P's though.
The XD/XDM would be a step backwards from the Glocks and M&P's though.
Why is that???
The XDM's are great pistols with more features over the Glock and M&P. I wouldn't consider that a "step backwards"...
Crow Hunter
04-10-14, 13:12
Why is that???
The XDM's are great pistols with more features over the Glock and M&P. I wouldn't consider that a "step backwards"...
Slide locking "grip safety" that prevents you from clearing the pistol or firing when a piece of dirt gets under it is a step backwards.
Unless you consider a Fobus holster/mag carrier a "feature".
Agreed. Match barrels, better sights, front slide serrations, improved ergonomics, additional mag capacity (but at the cost of a larger grip).
What's not to like? Different pistol for different applications.
I like XDm's and Glocks, I just use them for different things.
WickedWillis
04-10-14, 13:17
Why is that???
The XDM's are great pistols with more features over the Glock and M&P. I wouldn't consider that a "step backwards"...
We will have to agree to disagree, performance trumps features. I've spoke in other threads the issues I had with my XDM. I found it completely unreliable, and unnecessarily expensive for what it is. I also had issues with Springfield's CS. They were very uncooperative. They should be sold at the Taurus price point, similar to what they were when they were originally released as the HS2000. Maybe things have changed since I sold my XDM 9mm a few years ago, but I would never rely on them to protect myself or anything I care about.
Slide locking "grip safety" that prevents you from clearing the pistol or firing when a piece of dirt gets under it is a step backwards.
Unless you consider a Fobus holster/mag carrier a "feature".
Not arguing with you here, but how often have you heard that happening???? Unless you are dragging yourself through mud and sand, a typical LEO or civilian will not have that issue. 1911's also have that feature, how many times have you heard people complain about the grip safety?
Other features on the XD/m pistols is the loaded chamber indicator and firing pin indicator (along with the grip safety). And No, I don't consider the Glock's extractor a "loaded chamber indicator"
We will have to agree to disagree, performance trumps features. I've spoke in other threads the issues I had with my XDM. I found it completely unreliable, and unnecessarily expensive for what it is. I also had issues with Springfield's CS. They were very uncooperative. They should be sold at the Taurus price point, similar to what they were when they were originally released as the HS2000. Maybe things have changed since I sold my XDM 9mm a few years ago, but I would never rely on them to protect myself or anything I care about.
Agree to disagree.
I've never had issues with the XD's I've owned. I've never owned an XDM but know a few guys that do and use them on IDPA/3gun that have never had issues.
Crow Hunter
04-10-14, 15:46
Not arguing with you here, but how often have you heard that happening???? Unless you are dragging yourself through mud and sand, a typical LEO or civilian will not have that issue. 1911's also have that feature, how many times have you heard people complain about the grip safety?
Other features on the XD/m pistols is the loaded chamber indicator and firing pin indicator (along with the grip safety). And No, I don't consider the Glock's extractor a "loaded chamber indicator"
It actually happened to my brother. He was riding his ATV and a single glop of mud fell on his grip safety. After riding he came over to my Mom's house where I was visiting to do some shooting. He went up to the line to shoot and it wouldn't fire. He thought something was wrong, so he dropped the magazine and went to clear the weapon. He couldn't do it, it was jammed shut. To make a long story short, after 20 or so minutes of a gingerly trying to get a single grain of mud out of the grip safety of a loaded gun with a combination of pocket knife and water, he went the following Monday and traded it for a Glock 19.
He also thought it had some great "features" and "felt better in his hand" than a Glock when he went to the store...
But if it works for you, drive on. Based on my very limited experience with one, I wouldn't use one for anything other than a range gun.
The 1911 grip safety doesn't work the same way and it doesn't lock the slide closed on a live round. How many people do you see with a 1911 with the grip safety taped because it won't reliably disengage? How many do you see without a "speed bump" profile to more reliably disengage it?
It actually happened to my brother. He was riding his ATV and a single glop of mud fell on his grip safety. After riding he came over to my Mom's house where I was visiting to do some shooting. He went up to the line to shoot and it wouldn't fire. He thought something was wrong, so he dropped the magazine and went to clear the weapon. He couldn't do it, it was jammed shut. To make a long story short, after 20 or so minutes of a gingerly trying to get a single grain of mud out of the grip safety of a loaded gun with a combination of pocket knife and water, he went the following Monday and traded it for a Glock 19.
He also thought it had some great "features" and "felt better in his hand" than a Glock when he went to the store...
But if it works for you, drive on. Based on my very limited experience with one, I wouldn't use one for anything other than a range gun.
The 1911 grip safety doesn't work the same way and it doesn't lock the slide closed on a live round. How many people do you see with a 1911 with the grip safety taped because it won't reliably disengage? How many do you see without a "speed bump" profile to more reliably disengage it?
Your the first I've ever heard such an issue with grip safeties. In that case I can see your point. IMO the XD/XDm pistols are still good handguns, but they are overpriced.
Really a Glock or M&P is the best option in the OP's case...
acaixguard
04-11-14, 17:45
Other features on the XD/m pistols is the loaded chamber indicator and firing pin indicator (along with the grip safety). And No, I don't consider the Glock's extractor a "loaded chamber indicator"
Ok, maybe I'm in the minority here, but what is so useful about any loaded chamber indicator. In the 15+ years I've been shooting, I have NEVER made use of this feature, even on my guns that have this. I much prefer to do a quick press check.
Also, what's the benefit of the firing pin indicator? I am still scratching my head on the value of this.
Just subtle reminders that you're ready to rock.
Not critical, but a nice feature.
The XD grip safety is a vulnerability to the gun in different ways, and cautions with it should be heeded.
I have no use for LCIs, regardless of manufacturer. They should not be relied upon for any determination that it's important, nor should they be a factor in purchasing decisions. They are mostly to satisfy risk management and product liability concerns.
The XD grip safety is a vulnerability to the gun in different ways, and cautions with it should be heeded.
I have no use for LCIs, regardless of manufacturer. They should not be relied upon for any determination that it's important, nor should they be a factor in purchasing decisions. They are mostly to satisfy risk management and product liability concerns.
That's about it..LCI's are useless.. The XD.45 I had, the LCI would get a build up of dirt/grunge built up in it and would actually stick up in the loaded position, when unloaded.. Sure, it was easy to clean out, but the point is, it's useless, as is the grip safety.. The grip safety, the LCI, and the firing pin indicator are probably three of the most useless doodads you can put on a pistol, and the XD would be much better without them.. I ditched mine a long time ago...I've never missed it..
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-11-14, 19:23
I don't trust LCIs. The only really good one I have ever seen was on the P7M series. It stuck out like hell. But honestly, I always check anyway.
My Walther PPS has a great ready-to-go indicator right at the end of the slide. Can't miss it. Very positive. After decades of visual confirmation of loaded chambers, I never think to use it.
MountainRaven
04-11-14, 20:48
Your the first I've ever heard such an issue with grip safeties. In that case I can see your point. IMO the XD/XDm pistols are still good handguns, but they are overpriced.
Really a Glock or M&P is the best option in the OP's case...
How many guys have you talked to with XD/XDms who have performed one-handed manipulations with their pistols?
I don't know any personally, but I've talked to some instructors who have and they recommend against the XD/XDm for that reason alone.
Ok, maybe I'm in the minority here, but what is so useful about any loaded chamber indicator. In the 15+ years I've been shooting, I have NEVER made use of this feature, even on my guns that have this. I much prefer to do a quick press check.
Also, what's the benefit of the firing pin indicator? I am still scratching my head on the value of this.
I'm not defending the XD/XDm line of pistols here, just saying there can be a use for the extra features on them. LCI (in theory) tells you there is a round in the chamber without doing a press check. I always do a press check anyway, but many pistols I've owned including XD's and SR9's have the LCI. Not a necessity, just a visual indication of a loaded chamber.
Firing pin indicator lets you know the pistol is cocked, as in the hammer of a 1911. In a Glock you can tell it is cocked by the position of the trigger.
Again, I'm not saying these features are a must. But many people may find use for them. If you don't, good for you...
I do prefer Glocks and M&P's anyway but never took issue with XD's and SR9's. I was only suggesting to the OP another pistol since he does not want a Glock
How many guys have you talked to with XD/XDms who have performed one-handed manipulations with their pistols?
I don't know any personally, but I've talked to some instructors who have and they recommend against the XD/XDm for that reason alone.
I'm sure it can be done one handedly. I don't need to talk to XD/XDm users to verify this. Grip the pistol with your firing hand, cock it with the end of your shoe sole or another solid edge. Why are we even talking about this????? its the same with any pistol...
decodeddiesel
04-11-14, 21:28
My thoughts on the Hrvatski Samokres
Every singe sample I have looked at has had very obvious machining errors and manufacturing defects. Canted sights, bad chatter marks, nasty part-line flashing on the frame moldings, etc. I got a real hoot when the LGS employee (who tried to shove one in my wife's face last time we were shopping for a new CCW piece) told me with a straight face that the fit and finish on the XDS was way better than any Glock or M&P :sarcastic:. I'd like to run one someday on the range, but at first blush, I'm not spending my money on one.
As far as why I personally don't care for the XD line of pistols, aside from bias given their origin from the world renowned manufacturing powerhouse of Croatia (sarcasm), I have had an early XD40 hard lock up with a live round in the chamber on the range. I'm glad it wasn't my gun, and I didn't have to deal with the shit storm of RMA'ing a pistol with a live round stuck inside of it. The owner ended up (I shit you not) driving the gun to SA in Illinois to have it fixed. This was in 2007, maybe things have changed.
MountainRaven
04-11-14, 22:32
I'm sure it can be done one handedly. I don't need to talk to XD/XDm users to verify this. Grip the pistol with your firing hand, cock it with the end of your shoe sole or another solid edge. Why are we even talking about this????? its the same with any pistol...
Not if you don't have the grip safety engaged.
I had good Glocks. Bought a Gen3 19 with ejection issues, fixed it with the Apex extractor to 100%, still carry it today. Instead of belly-aching about it I bought a Gen4 17- another good Glock. I'll probably buy a dozen more in the future. I've wondered for quite some time what an estimate would be, percentage wise, of Glocks in circulation with ejection issues from someone like Grant that has received objective reports of performance from credible sources with firsthand experience with very large sample sizes. The 30% estimate is very interesting to me. Thank you Grant for putting that out there.
@OP, what serial # prefix does yours start with and do you know the approx date of manufacture?
@OP, what serial # prefix does yours start with and do you know the approx date of manufacture?
Prefix: WCR
Date Collected: 10/31/13 <--- I guess I got a "trick" instead of a "treat."
TacticalMark
04-12-14, 16:18
Prefix: WCR
Date Collected: 10/31/13 <--- I guess I got a "trick" instead of a "treat."
Your not alone obviously, I have a gen3 VYD 9/13 G19 that consistently throws brass between 4:30-5 oclock with an occasional BTF. Probably going to try 30274 ejector, then order a Apex extractor.
I thought the gen 3's were shipping with the 30274 ejector? Or is that only gen 4's?
The Apex kit fixed the issues with my G17, so it's a viable solution like it's been pointed out. I really like G19's, but I wouldn't purchase a new one because do these problems. Luckily mine are all older and do not have these issues. I'd say keep the G19 platform, but find an older one. Summit Gun Broker has GX.... prefix serial number G19's and G17's in stock that are police trade ins. The G17 I got from him was in pretty good shape and does not have the ejection issues because it's older and manufactured when Glock didn't have the problems.
I am in no way affiliated with them, just wanted to share that. I know a lot of people that look for these older Glocks because of their boring reliability.
TacticalMark
04-12-14, 19:11
I thought the gen 3's were shipping with the 30274 ejector? Or is that only gen 4's?
Both my late model gen3's have 336 ejectors. 30274 should be current production Gen4's
i've been experiencing brass in my face from my glock 19 recently too. but I was too focused on hitting successive steel to really nail down the issue. I definitely feel like glock quality is not what it used to be. Mine is a '10 production 3rd gen. Has only had around 2k rounds on it. I bought it 2nd hand so I doubt glock would fix it on their dime. I had one back in 2006 that had over 10k rounds...flawless.
A friend of mine has a BTF Gen4 19 and I've shot it in steel challenge. Several times I actually watched the brass eject straight up, and the front sight would catch it and kick it back into my face.
I had a Gen 4 19 with all the first parts, perfect ejection and function over about 5K. He bought his because of mine and it turned out to be a POS.
Seriously, who wants to spend $60-80 fixing a reliability problem on a brand new $500 gun? I applaud Apex for trying to solve the problem and boo Glock for creating it, but it's Glock's problem and if they have to trash the gun and send out a new one, so be it. My "Kxx" prefix G-19 works exactly as advertised. If it didn't, I'd be getting it fixed or replaced by Glock. :(
Slide locking "grip safety" that prevents you from clearing the pistol or firing when a piece of dirt gets under it is a step backwards.
Unless you consider a Fobus holster/mag carrier a "feature".
The grip safety does not lock the slide. Has nothing to do with the slide.
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shutup&shoot
04-13-14, 12:17
The grip safety does not lock the slide. Has nothing to do with the slide.
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He means you can't rack the slide unless the grip safety is engaged.
roger that I miss understood.
side note: the xds this is not the case. the grip safety only lets you pull the trigger, can still rack the slide
Stop mentioning the Springfield XD/XDM series guns. Never going to get any love on this forum.
I purchased the cz p-07 and think I'm going to hang up the Glocks for a while. It's a great feeling pistol and well thought out. I recommend giving one a try. I passed on the FN due to the takedown pin being right where my thumb rests.
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brushy bill
04-13-14, 19:19
Both my late model gen3's have 336 ejectors. 30274 should be current production Gen4's
As far as I know, nothing has changed from this post. The newest Gen 3s still don't use the 30274. Continue to be using the 336.
TheWaker43
04-13-14, 20:27
I've had bad luck contacting Glock. I've sent them three emails over a six month period, no replies. It's a Gen 3 19 I bought during the first run of FDE. I get about 2-3 BTF every magazine. And a few friends have shot it. The brass is all over the place. No pattern whatsoever. I am only about 20 miles from Glock so I might just ride over there. Or give the Apex parts a shot.
Not if you don't have the grip safety engaged.
That's why you grip the pistol while depressing the grip safety then rack. I'm not sure what's so difficult about that...
I know this will fall on many deaf ears, and the detractors will be several.
One option is a Steyr. With four size classes there should be a choice available that fits most peoples needs.
My M40-A1 has been dead solid reliable. The only time it has failed to go bang is when my handloads with an excessive COAL problem would not let the slide go into battery. Other than that the pistol's functioning has been flawless through nearly 1000 rounds. It has eaten everything from hot self defense ammo down to bunny fart reloads that will barely cycle the slide. I have owned SIGs and HKs, the build quality of the Steyr is right there with them. The trigger on M40 is unobtrusive and the ergonomics work for me and many others. I haven't had to use it but most reports say Steyr USA has great customer service and is willing to go the extra mile to make the owner happy. You can see from the engineering changes that the M Series has had that Steyr acknowledges issues and improves the product as a result. Obviously the aftermarket around the Steyr is going to be very slim compared to Glock, but you can find what you need if you look. I know that Walther would also be another good choice as my PPS has also been very reliable.
Steyr is one of the worlds oldest firearms manufacturers and in believe they have a real commitment to providing reliable choices to people in the market for a self-defense handgun.
Something to consider.
That's why you grip the pistol while depressing the grip safety then rack. I'm not sure what's so difficult about that...
When stressed the simplest thing can be difficult.
The XD XDM series has a grip safety set up that not only locks the trigger from firing but also locks the slide from moving fully if the grip safety is not fully depressed. I see in training a lot of people that they do very well with both guns until we really start rolling with the guns. Then a very high number start to have trouble. They miss the grip safety on hand movemant and on one hand malfunction clearance they can't maintain the grip safety and therefore can't get the gun back up and running. That could be life threatening in a real fight and this is just training stress. For that reason I can't recommend the XD XDm pistols as fighting guns. It happens way to often to call it a fluke. I am not saying it happens every time but I see it way to often. It is a design flaw that needs to be addressed but it won't be until they start losing enough sales. For this reason I know of a lot of police departments and officers that won't allow the gun to be in the duty or off duty holster.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical
When stressed the simplest thing can be difficult.
Any of you with BTF on G19 or 17 using a USA made gun?
Nightstalker865
04-14-14, 08:13
Any of you with BTF on G19 or 17 using a USA made gun?
My USA Gen 4 G19 has been absolutely flawless and has good ejection. It only has 550rds through it though, so still a low round count.
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Stop mentioning the Springfield XD/XDM series guns. Never going to get any love on this forum.
And there is a reason why, read post #116 above...Mr. Bowie's comment's are spot on... My advise to the XD folks would be to take a class where stress is at some point going to be introduced, and see how it does.. If you find that you can't operate it well under stress due to the grip safety, or controls on the pistol, then it may be time to revaluate you choice of handguns.. If on the other hand, you do well with it, then drive on.. There is a reason that, outside of 1911's,XD's nobody else uses grip safety's ..........They are useless..
My USA G19 has been absolutely flawless and has good ejection. It only has 550rds through it though, so still a low round count.
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Interesting. I ask because as an armorer the only guns I have seen with these issues are Austrian despite them being exactly the same. I have also seen four G17 gen 4's with nickel plating coming off the frame rails and three guns including one of mine with striker channels coming out when new that were also Austrian. Meanwhile the USA models (including mine) I have seen for routine maintenance have exhibited an absence of problems. Granted the percentage of Austrian to USA guns available seems to be 3/1 in favor of the Austrian versions-where i'm at. I would love to know if anyone else has seen this.
Interesting... Maybe start another thread on the different experiences between the Austrian and USA models? I think that would be very beneficial to this community.
Yes, pretty interesting. When Glock started to make their guns in the US, some folks first impression was "Great - there goes QC down the crapper".
Any of you with BTF on G19 or 17 using a USA made gun?
I have numerous BTF with an Austrian G21 Gen 3. I'm still pretty new to pistol shooting (Only fired about 400 rounds) so I couldn't tell if it was from inexperience or the extractor.
WickedWillis
04-14-14, 14:15
I have numerous BTF with an Austrian G21 Gen 3. I'm still pretty new to pistol shooting (Only fired about 400 rounds) so I couldn't tell if it was from inexperience or the extractor.
It's been pretty unanimous that it's been regulated to a 9mm problem. I haven't heard of any other caliber having the issue?
Interesting... Maybe start another thread on the different experiences between the Austrian and USA models? I think that would be very beneficial to this community.
I concur. Just a theory but it's quite possible that the US and Austrian made pistols use extracts, ejectors, etc. from a different batch. Thats why some exhibit btf and others dont. If a new thread is started, members should post 1. What pistol and generation they have(i.e. G19 gen4) 2.Where the pistol was made(US or Austria). 3. Ejector number(336 or 30274) 4. Recoil spring number (i.e. 042) 5. Extractor number( i.e #4 I think its etched on most but i'm not sure) 6. Number of rounds through the pistol. 7. Born date (found on spent casing envelope). With all this info someone may be able to spot a correlation between certain part combos and BTF.
It's been pretty unanimous that it's been regulated to a 9mm problem. I haven't heard of any other caliber having the issue?
It might just be me. I do have a M&P9 but have never experienced a BTF on it (only put 200 rounds through it though). My G21 has about the same amount of round through it and I've experienced 3 or 4 BTF's. Again I haven't shot enough to be a data point.
I have numerous BTF with an Austrian G21 Gen 3. I'm still pretty new to pistol shooting (Only fired about 400 rounds) so I couldn't tell if it was from inexperience or the extractor.
What ammo are you using?
What ammo are you using?
Magtech 230gr.
Sell it new and buy an American revolver. Yes i am old, and also in the way. Have not had one issue in over 50 years of firing USA wheel steel. Technology and loads have come a long way in the wheel world as well, but hey, keeping it real old, i just purchased a 9-shot .22 from the olden days so after all this time i'm still just one shot short. My reloader is a magician, many here must be as well. Lastly you must realize I have had to budget for many, many moon cycles now.
And i'm covering Charter Arms to Colt to boot. If you want more than 5 rounds for your intended purpose of "for carrying" what i do is keep an NAF .22 mag in my change pocket. The old lady designed and installed "change pockets" in every pair of pants i own, both of 'em.
After all i heard years back when Glock appeared and afterwards at least for a spell, i am surprised they had issues. What really kills me is like; the New Gen 4 Glock (bubbly and ballons my butt.)
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-14-14, 17:15
I still don't believe this BTF thing is a new phenomenon. I have had BTF issues with nearly every G19 I have shot since the early 90s. My old 89' G19 had the issue. The only 9mm Glock that I have NEVER had the problem with is the G26.
Dear lord some of the advice here....
- "Buy a 1911"
- "Buy a revolver"
- "Only old Glocks should be expected to work"
- "Brass To Face isn't an issue"
- "Start swapping parts!"
- "... You tried 4-5 different types of ammo?... It's obviously your ammo!"
- "I haven't had a problem in 100-500 rounds so, there is no issue with Glocks!"
...
- Buy a PPQ (ok, this is actually good advice really, although I've kicked around whether or not a PPQ is a good glock/m&p replacement - or just supplement)
I'm not going to pretend to know any sort of answer here... The likely best answer is send it to Glock, if that doesn't work try a new extractor or another gun, after that, move the **** on if this is a carry or duty gun. But a LOT of posters need to stfu is the bigger point here.
I still don't believe this BTF thing is a new phenomenon. I have had BTF issues with nearly every G19 I have shot since the early 90s. My old 89' G19 had the issue. The only 9mm Glock that I have NEVER had the problem with is the G26.
It isn't a new thing, isn't a Glock-specific thing, isn't a 9mm thing, and isn't a big deal. It is the internet though. :cool:
Dear lord some of the advice here....
- "Buy a 1911"
- "Buy a revolver"
- "Only old Glocks should be expected to work"
- "Brass To Face isn't an issue"
- "Start swapping parts!"
- "... You tried 4-5 different types of ammo?... It's obviously your ammo!"
- "I haven't had a problem in 100-500 rounds so, there is no issue with Glocks!"
...
- Buy a PPQ (ok, this is actually good advice really, although I've kicked around whether or not a PPQ is a good glock/m&p replacement - or just supplement)
I'm not going to pretend to know any sort of answer here... The likely best answer is send it to Glock, if that doesn't work try a new extractor or another gun, after that, move the **** on if this is a carry or duty gun. But a LOT of posters need to stfu is the bigger point here.
Great point, you should probably rate all of the advice given by other posters as often as possible, that way no one would ever be left to wonder whether or not they should s-the-f-up.
Great point, you should probably rate all of the advice given by other posters as often as possible, that way no one would ever be left to wonder whether or not they should s-the-f-up.
Yea, I'd consider that a noble public service.... considering the ridiculousness of some people's posts.
This may be a stupid question, but how does one know if they have a USA made Glock? Does it just say "Made in USA", where it normally says "Made in Austria"? All 3 of my Glocks say "Made in Austria". I have 2 19s, one 19 with Austrian proofs #KUZ*** (no issues) and a newer 19 #SAK*** that had ejection/BTF issues that was fixed with Apex FRE, non-LCI SLB, and 30274 ejector.
Yes it says "USA" instead of Austria.
Also the serial numbers have four characters instead of three. Example AAAA.
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Magtech 230gr.Any idea of the fps on that? I know my G21 did not like PMC ammo, but it was loaded pretty light. When I shot some reloads that were a bit hotter through it, ejection was much more consistent and away from my face.
Also the serial numbers have four characters instead of three. Example AAAA.
Also, a little engraving of the state of Georgia
http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/classifieds/images/2012_12_08/21971/1355006856_1.JPG
Also the serial numbers have four characters instead of three. Example AAAA.
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Not anymore. New ones have three letter characters and four or five alphanumeric numbers. SNP*****
So the question still on the table is whether anyone with a US made G17 or 19 has had any problems, including BTF, etc. as has been reported widely with G17's and 19 generally?
I'm pretty sure the problem is at least as bad as Grant said. My G19 doesn't have BTF but another one I had that is now gone did. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of posts on this on multiple forums. My own pet theory is Glock messed something up on both the Gen 3 guns and Gen 4 guns when they retooled for the Gen 4s.
Glock will never acknowledge the problem, they don't even admit to the NY issue back in the day even though they set up a field machine shop in NY to fix issues with their slides.
Like others here I went with the PPQ even though my G19 was a "good one". I switched because of the trigger and ergos. I occasionally take the G19 out just to reinforce how much better the PPQ is. The trigger is just amazing. If I ever can find a Navy model, I'll put a can on it and it will be my bedside gun.
None of these platforms is perfect, aftermarket sight options for the PPQ aren't that great. If HK comes out with a striker P30 at a good price I'll give it a look. But it will be very hard to go to another trigger after training with my PPQ. It's really that good. I'd never go to a DA/SA or LEM platform, I guess I'm spoiled now.
Glock will never acknowledge the problem
Which is as annoying as the problem itself.
These are running well at the point of the round counts in the second column.
Glock 19 250 9mm CUMXXX 3rd gen
Glock 19 450 9mm WZPXXX 3rd gen FDE
Glock 19 3000 9mm LMMXXX 3rd gen
Glock 19 3100 9mm PFMXXX 3rd gen RTF2
Glock 17 7000 9mm NUWXXX 3rd gen RTF2
Glock 17 1500 9mm SXVXXX 4th gen FDE
Glock 17 3500 9mm PHPXXX 4th gen
Glock 17 10500 9mm PHKXXX 4th gen
Glock 19 1800 9mm SVYXXX 4th gen FDE
Glock 19 2050 9mm SVYXXX 4th gen FDE
Glock 19 2400 9mm PYXXXX 4th gen
Glock 22 1150 .40 S&W PG2XXXX 4th gen
Glock 23 300 .40 S&W MISSING 4th gen
Glock 26 1155 9mm SMYXXX 4th gen
Glock 17 6150 9mm GVKXXX 3RD GEN
The most interesting part of this glock issue is the fact that so many shooters, provided they are not getting brass rocketed to their face will accept any other kind of ejection. My Gen 3 19 was just to the right side of my face and some would bounce off the brim of my hat or go over my head. I did not find this acceptable but my issue was remedied with the 30274 ejector and the APEX FRE. I was so happy with the APEX I installed it in my Gen 4 immediately. As far as Glock goes, I originally sent the pistol in to them requesting they install the 30274 ejector (came with the 336), and they did so without any problems.
It is also interesting that all Glock 9s of each generation since Glocktime began have had very erratic ejection but it's only been a deadly warning sign in the last couple of years.
Check with Randy Lee, he's posted that very plainly here on M4C.
It is also interesting that all Glock 9s of each generation since Glocktime began have had very erratic ejection but it's only been a deadly warning sign in the last couple of years.
Check with Randy Lee, he's posted that very plainly here on M4C.
Nobody wants to hear it. I've said several times that this isn't a new issue. The worst one I saw was a two-pin 3rd gen 17. I also had an '09 17L that ran like crap. I didn't really know what was going on back then though.
Also, a little engraving of the state of Georgia
http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/classifieds/images/2012_12_08/21971/1355006856_1.JPG
That's called a proof mark.
That's called a proof mark.
Sure.
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