View Full Version : Non-revolver pocket/mouse guns
I currently have 3 small pistols; a Colt Mustang, a Kel Tec .32, and a NAA .22 magnum. They are, in order, too big to carry in my pocket, too unreliable for me to feel comfortable with, and too puny of a bullet for me to feel totally secure.
I'm also not built for revolver pocket carry. I've tried it, it doesn't work.
So, what are the options? Is Seacamp still a worthy option? Are they still ridiculously expensive? Are the NAA .32s and .380s worth a look? Is there any real advantage to .380 over .32 out of such a tiny gun?
I like that I can get Crimson Trace grips for the NAA, can you get them for the Seacamp as well?
My experience with small guns is that if not picked wisely, you should just carry a ballpeen hammer. Forget the .25 for anything. MOst .32's don't work, especially the NAA. For the size/caliber ratio, I would take a look at the Walther PPS, I have no experience with it though. I carry a G26, not a pocket gun for me. I had a Beretta .380 and the Sig 230, nice guns, but big for the caliber. Never seen a PP/PPK work right(I don't call 4-5 rounds right from one mag reliable) Still have my 642, nice but for the size, I'll take the 11 with the G26. Years ago, I picked up a Grendel P12 for kicks, I shot the piss out of it and it worked, I shot at least 1k before a coworker wanted it and offered a good penny for it(money from that went to a Taurus and after 3 replacements and a refund, got a SW). I'm not for certain, but I think Keltec may be the ones who took them over or name changed? I've shot the 9mm Keltec's worked fine, but suck to shoot.
The .22 WMR will get you some penetration, but if it's in the revolver(642 size, just carry the .357 version)
My .02
Mark
Rob,
I too have trouble with pocket carry (6', 165lbs). I've carried the NAA Guardian .32 for several years in a Lou Alessi pocket rig. It's reliable but weak in the power dept. of course. With the excellent little pistols from Kahr in 9mm and .40, there much less reason to depend on a .32 anymore. They are my pick for pocket as well as belly band carry.(a method of carry I use a lot).
Skip
Have you considered the Ruger LCP? From what I've read and heard, it's real similar to the Kel-Tec P3AT (which is just a bit bigger than a P32) but it's built better than the Kel-Tec. This may be an option for you.
This month's SWAT has an article on it and Michael Bane recently added an mini episode about it on his blog.
I've thought about the little Kahrs, but haven't played with them much and a few guys I know locally have had enough trouble with them that they got rid of them. I'm also not REAL excited about spending nearly $1k on one either.
The problem that plaques some of these ultra light guns is they are prone to malfunction if not held properly. There has to be a balance in the weight of these things but people want things light as a feather and it just doesn't work.
Compact guns and calibers are never an option for me. I won't even own one.
Compact guns and calibers are never an option for me. I won't even own one.
What a constructive and helpful post. Thank you for your insight. :rolleyes:
I find that as I move up the corporate ladder, dress codes become more and more limiting, and situations present themselves where uber-discrete carry is a must. With my build and in a pair of slacks and tucked-in button-down shirt (presuming I don't want to look like a copier repairman) carry options are extremely limited. While it's all nice and romantic to go on and on about carrying a 5" 1911, it's just not practical in the real world all the time.
Yes, I could gain 50 lbs of gut, and go back to working for peanuts, and dress like a bum, but frankly my life would suck and I'd have no money, so what would I actually have to defend? :p
Maybe one of those Kramer undergarments, kind of like a T-shirt with a holster incorporated. The carry position ends up being higher on the torso. Then maybe a J-frame or a .380 might be doable.
No experience with one, just tossing out another idea for consideration.
What a constructive and helpful post. Thank you for your insight. :rolleyes:
Sorry. They are completely useless guns unless for some reason the bad guy will let you put it directly to his head and fire it.
I'm often amazed at people (not you... just in general) who will insist on 77 grain whatever mk 87 ammo for their AR because other rounds aren't as effective at fragmentation and damage to vitals... yet they'll carry a .380 pistol in a day to day environment where they're much more likely to need a firearm for protection. The .380 is not an acceptable penetrating round under any circumstances. The round is a joke.
I'd opt for brief case carry or a day planner or something with at least a 9mm caliber pistol.
Out of curiosity, why wouldn't a S&W 340PD work for your needs?
It's the smallest, lightest, most powerful, most reliable pocket sized gun available...hands down.
Throw a CT grip on it and you've got, IMO, the finest pocket carry option ever made.
What doesn't work with that set up for you?
You may need to amend your requirements somewhat to achieve a viable option here.
You did mention earlier that exceeding 1k in price isn't something you're real interested in, and the 340PD w/ CT's will certainly exceed that number.
is an ankle holster out of the question?
Out of curiosity, why wouldn't a S&W 340PD work for your needs?
It's the smallest, lightest, most powerful, most reliable pocket sized gun available...hands down.
Throw a CT grip on it and you've got, IMO, the finest pocket carry option ever made.
What doesn't work with that set up for you?
You may need to amend your requirements somewhat to achieve a viable option here.
You did mention earlier that exceeding 1k in price isn't something you're real interested in, and the 340PD w/ CT's will certainly exceed that number.
It prints like hell on my frame. I'm 6'-1" and 170-175 lbs right now. I wear a 32" waist if I'm not carrying IWB. My cell phone prints through my pocket like I'm smuggling sausage, and if I put a J-frame in a front pocket it looks like I'm carrying a pocketfull of rocks.
is an ankle holster out of the question?
Yeah. For my style of dress and that which is becoming increasingly expected of me it is.
I have one of the Seacamp .32s. Nice little gun, works well with the recommended Winchester Silvertip ammo. They are now recommending Speer Gold dot, haven't tried them yet. In spite of not having any sights I can still hit with it at more then arms distance. I'm not quite sure I'd want it to be the only blaster I have on me though. Price has stabilized and they are much more readily available now that there are other similar blasters on the market. Seacamp does sell what they call a laser aiming device that attaches to the gun, http://www.seecamp.com/laser.htm
I had one of the Kahr PM9s. It went back to Kahr because it was less then stellar in the reliability department. It came back much the same and shortly there after got traded in.
The Walther PPS shows some promise but I have yet to even see one around here (N/E PA).
I've also tried the Mustang. Had it fitted with Novak's and reliability work. Neat gun. Looks like somebody put one of my 1911s in the dryer.
ETA: Missed the part about the ankle holster being a no-go. Try a tuckable holster.
Having said all that the gun I keep coming back to when I can only carry one gun and it has to be well hidden is a Smith 442 with Crimson Trace grips. At 6' 250 pounds pocket carry can be a problem for me too unless the pockets are cut generously. My suggestion is to try a good ankle holster like the Alessi or a Renegade. The other option is one of the tuckable holsters. The Raven with the tuckable belt loops would work well for this.
Good luck. Finding a small gun that you are comfortable with is a never ending quest.
ETA: Missed the part about the ankle holster being a no-go. Try the tuckable holster.
Maybe one of those Kramer undergarments, kind of like a T-shirt with a holster incorporated. The carry position ends up being higher on the torso. Then maybe a J-frame or a .380 might be doable.
No experience with one, just tossing out another idea for consideration.
Those are like a sweat suit, so bad even I gave it away.
It prints like hell on my frame. I'm 6'-1" and 170-175 lbs right now. I wear a 32" waist if I'm not carrying IWB. My cell phone prints through my pocket like I'm smuggling sausage, and if I put a J-frame in a front pocket it looks like I'm carrying a pocketfull of rocks.
Well, dang, hit the club and the ladies will be happy!
Ever consider a Rohrbaugh R9? I don't have personal experience with them, but I understand they're very well made and are a 9mm in a typical .380/.25 package.
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/downloads/gunbrochure04.pdf
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=81781
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f131.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6811_01.jpg
Wayne Dobbs
05-29-08, 11:03
Rob,
I think that the Ruger LCP would likely work for your needs and would not kill a thousand dollar bill like some of the other "elite" pocket guns will. I have successfully avoided the .380 caliber for my entire life, but I'm thinking about one of these little guns for about the same reasons you are. Right now I'm making a SW 642 (pre-lock) work for me in an under the shirt carry. That rules out tucked in polos and the like, so a pocket gun is in my future.
You might get one, shoot it a couple of hundred rounds to make sure it works and then limit the shooting of it. I doubt they are made to stand up to the work we put our full size service guns to.
WD
Forgive me if I don't get the "elite" pocket gun concept.
I carry with the intention of self defense. From the same crowd that drops thousands on rifles, and willing to often fork over big money for handguns (see 1911 mania)...why would it be an issue to drop cash on a very well made pocket gun when it clearly meets strict carry parameters?
My life is well worth it....and the selection of my guns is a reflection of the value I place on my life and the lives of my loved ones. I'm not suggesting that dropping $1k on a pocket gun is the only route, but based on the restrictive parameters Rob_s seems to be working with, there is a very compelling option in 9mm, in that range. It would be foolish to over look it as a consideration IMO. .380 is a compromise that is not necessary to make....even given the tight parameters outlined by Rob_s.
If there was a known entity in a pocket gun that worked for me and was expensive, I wouldn't be so reluctant. I don't mind spending $1200 on a Colt M4 because it is a known entity and I can understand why it costs what it does.
The same cannot be said for Kahr, or any of the others in this thread so far. Not to mention that the Kahr is still relatively large and may still not work out for me. I would prefer not to spend $1k just to carry it for a day and then try to move it on the used market. I don't mind doing that with a $200 stock from a known maker, like Magpul, but I'm not going to do it on a pistol from a maker with a spotty reputation. Too many variables.
If there was a known entity in a pocket gun that worked for me and was expensive, I wouldn't be so reluctant. I don't mind spending $1200 on a Colt M4 because it is a known entity and I can understand why it costs what it does.
The same cannot be said for Kahr, or any of the others in this thread so far. Not to mention that the Kahr is still relatively large and may still not work out for me. I would prefer not to spend $1k just to carry it for a day and then try to move it on the used market. I don't mind doing that with a $200 stock from a known maker, like Magpul, but I'm not going to do it on a pistol from a maker with a spotty reputation. Too many variables.
I'd respectfully suggest taking a close look at my suggestion on page 1. Unless I'm missing something here, it would seem to fully address what you're seeking.
Yeah, it's a lot for a small gun and from a company you're not entirely (or at all) familiar with, but from what I've seen, read and heard from those who do own them, they are in a catagory by themselves. There seems to be little debate as to their reliability and quality. They are a niche weapon that would at least appear to fill the niche you've described.
I do understand your apprehension.....and concerns with lesser known makers. Makes sense.I just think given your strict parameters, you're in a corner that just might need to take that closer look before dismissing them out right.
I'd respectfully suggest taking a close look at my suggestion on page 1. Unless I'm missing something here, it would seem to fully address what you're seeking.
Yeah, it's a lot for a small gun and from a company you're not entirely (or at all) familiar with, but from what I've seen, read and heard from those who do own them, they are in a catagory by themselves. There seems to be little debate as to their reliability and quality. They are a niche weapon that would at least appear to fill the niche you've described.
I do understand your apprehension.....and concerns with lesser known makers. I just think given your parameters, you're in a corner that just might need to take that closer look before dismissing them.
Sorry, but $1k (http://www.gunsamerica.com/951267829/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Pistols/R-Misc-Pistols/New_Rohrbaugh_R9S.htm) for something that I'm unlikely to be able to get my hands on without shelling out the $1k beforehand just isn't going to cut it. Not unless someone that actually owns one can come along and explain to me why it should cost $1k, what I'm getting for that $1k besides niche, and I can get some reports on reliability and such.
I'm not dismissing it, there just appears to be no way for me to pursue it further without spending the money, and that's just not going to happen.
rob s:
You infer that you work in at least a somewhat "dressy" environment. Are you required to wear a sport jacket or suit to work? If not, would it look out of place? I'm thinking an 642 or Scandium J frame in either a tuckable or low ride IWB rig
at about 4 o'clock inside the waistband. A suitcoat/sportsjacket should provide adequate cover, even given your thin frame.
Alternately, if a suit isn't out of place, get some 3-piece suits and just wear the vest around the office, the gun could ride in front and be covered by the tail of the vest.
I see from your profile that you manage construction in SE Florida. Would a conservatively colored Hawaian-style shirt be acceptable, like those marketed by 5.11 and the Woolrich Elite Tactical? These would also allow appendix carry
Also, I believe Mika holsters will alter their designs for ride height and they are supposed to be very well done and not too expensive.
HTH
Chris Sheehy
Rob:
You know my approximate size. For work, I've carried a Seecamp for 15 years in a Thad Rybka holster in my back pocket. With shirt tucked in no has ever known it is there. I have one holster for blue jeans. A different holster for slacks or suits that has an elongated base to hold the gun stable in the larger back pocket.
I am not an IPSC GM but at 7 yards I can keep the rounds in the A zone all day. I've got both 32s and .380s and prefer the .32s.
The obvious is even a small gun has to be combined with the right holster.
I bought both my boys Seecamps with their initials as the serial #s and Thad Rybka holsters for their 21st birthdays.
edit: My preference for the 32 is simply the lessened recoil. Another plus with Seecamp is the magazine disconnect in a home with kids coming and going.
Something to consider: If an item as thin as a cell phone prints loudly through your pants pockets, you may want to look at pants with bigger pockets.
With a decent pocket holster and reasonable selection of dress pants, someone your size should be able to carry a j-frame.
I've handled but never shot the R9. The price doesn't surprise me at all, given what it's designed to do at such a tiny size.
While I wouldn't consider a P3AT an exceptionally reliable or durable gun, they're workable. With a little TLC from a competent 'smith, they run. The LCP seems like a slightly improved variant, though early production guns apparently had enough problems that a bit of caution seems reasonable.
The caliber debate seems silly. By definition, an ultra compact pocket gun is a compromise. Running around with a .32 in your pocket still beats leaving your 1911 at home.
Sorry, but $1k (http://www.gunsamerica.com/951267829/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Pistols/R-Misc-Pistols/New_Rohrbaugh_R9S.htm) for something that I'm unlikely to be able to get my hands on without shelling out the $1k beforehand just isn't going to cut it. Not unless someone that actually owns one can come along and explain to me why it should cost $1k, what I'm getting for that $1k besides niche, and I can get some reports on reliability and such.
I'm not dismissing it, there just appears to be no way for me to pursue it further without spending the money, and that's just not going to happen.
I understand your points. $1k is a lot for a pistol you're unfamiliar with.
In addition to those I know who own the Rohrbaugh's and a myriad of testimonials like these....
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/testimonials/testimonials_set.html
This little pistol is in my future, and I'll be happy to reveiw it once its been put through its paces. The $1k, based on what I have learned, is worth the asking price (I have similar requirements as you and also live in S.E. FL where the heat can dictate dress). In the mean time, this may be of some use to you....(I know your affinity for charts).
http://www.mouseguns.com/9mmtable.htm
Rob,
I work in a medical office and work with the public all day long. As I mentioned I'm 6', 165 lbs and I can carry my Kahr P-40 all day, completely unnoticed in a belly band. The P-40 holds seven rounds and is .94 wide and 17 ounces empty. The 9mm version is only .90 wide. There are a couple of tricks to carrying undetected. I carry over my appendix with my belt over the trigger guard so as to to pull the butt up tight against me. Also, use a gun belt that is stiff enough so that it doesn't curve outward as it goes over the pistol, but still looks like a casual/dress belt. With a little practice at snatching the shirt tail out with the left hand while drawing with the right, you'd be surprised at the speed of draw. I'm an Optician and stand in front of seated people all day w/o fear of "printing".
Even my thinnest Glock, the 36, is a little too thick for this application although it is a terrific little .45. I carry the Kahr safely in condition one in the soft sided belly band while I won't do the same with my Glocks.
Also, the new CCW series of Kahrs are half the price you mentioned, and the flag ship models can be had for six to seven, depending on model.
Didn't mean to turn this into a heavily pro-Kahr post, but rather pro belly band . By the way, a revolver carrys EXTREMELY well with this method and position. Just use a 1 1/4" belt and let it nest between the grips and cylinder. Wear pleated pants and you can carry something as large as a round butt K frame COMPLETELY unnoticed.
Good luck,
Skip
I got to handle a LCP last weekend and I was disappointed.
IMO It's just too small and cheesy. I agree the Rohrbaugh is the most impressive. You get what you pay for holds true.
IrishDevil
05-29-08, 19:26
I've shot the Rohrbaugh, it's an excellent little pistol. The one I fired belongs to a friend and he let me try it out, about 40 rounds WWB FMJ and 10 rounds Hornady TAP 124's. Easy to shoot, handles well for me, I plan to pick one up. I currently own a Kahr K9, and other than it being heavy, I like it. I'm most likely going to move to the P9 or PM9 because of the weight. I really like the R9, but it'll have to wait.
Just emailed a local friend of mine that gets to see a lot of rounds downrange and a lot of different pistols, and has been around the "game" for a lot longer than me.
Of the 4 Rohrbaugh's he's come across, 2 worked. Not good odds IMHO for $1k.
If all else fails you could get yourself a "man purse" like those made by Maxpedition.
Get it in black, and you should not stand out from the other man purse totin' execs.
It's a good place to carry your phone, PDA, laptop (on the bigger models) documents and the handgun of your choice with extra mags discreetly.
John_Wayne777
05-29-08, 20:06
Personally I'd suggest looking at a Raven holster with the tuckable attachments for a J frame. You should be able to pack that.
I find that as I move up the corporate ladder, dress codes become more and more limiting, and situations present themselves where uber-discrete carry is a must. With my build and in a pair of slacks and tucked-in button-down shirt (presuming I don't want to look like a copier repairman) carry options are extremely limited. While it's all nice and romantic to go on and on about carrying a 5" 1911, it's just not practical in the real world all the time.
In your situation I would go for the Kahr PM-9 in a pocket holster. The trick I employ is to have a tailor deepen the pocket so that it won't be tight and the gun won't print.
I find Uncle Mike's $18.00ish pocket holsters work better for em than more expensive ones.
Alpha Sierra
05-29-08, 21:44
If I put a J-frame in a front pocket it looks like I'm carrying a pocketfull of rocks.
Perhaps you have not tried the right pocket holster.
Also, with either a belly band or a GOOD tuckable holster (read: Comp Tac CTAC) you can make a J frame disappear. CTACs even come with velcro clips that fasten to an opposite layer of velcro sewn to the inside of your belt. That makes the holster totally invisible.
With some practice and some judicious blousing of the shirt drawing is no big deal.
Unlike most pocket pistols, J frames go bang every single time and pack a formidable punch.
Alpha Sierra
05-29-08, 21:49
double tap
Just emailed a local friend of mine that gets to see a lot of rounds downrange and a lot of different pistols, and has been around the "game" for a lot longer than me.
Of the 4 Rohrbaugh's he's come across, 2 worked. Not good odds IMHO for $1k.
That sampling of 4 isn't in any way indicative of the results I'm aware of, nor the results those I know who've "been in the game" a lot longer than many here.
Bottom line, clearly not a pistol for you. Good luck in your quest.
Personally I'd suggest looking at a Raven holster with the tuckable attachments for a J frame. You should be able to pack that.
The J-Frame had been suggested by me on page 1 and wasn't acceptable to Rob_s.
It would really be stupid if a man who spent thousands and thousands of dollars on ARs and accessories got caught unarmed because he didn't want to spend the money on a firearm that could be concealled in his business wear.
More info on the R9; Karl Rohrbaugh R9 video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRnXiINs5aE).
Seecamp LWS 32 group buy (http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1210260831) ends today I believe. The guy doing the group buy, a home FFL, may have a slot or two open.
$400.00 shipped to your FFL is a good price and you save $46.00 from ordering from the factory. $130.00 deposit, balance due in a few months when the company starts on your pistol. 3-4 month wait.
eta: Also, on the thefiringline forums:
Seecamps $399 delivered (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294768), member Wildalaska
condition 1
05-30-08, 20:22
$400.00 is a good price delivered, Rob, try to fine someone who has a .32 Seecamp,and will let you try it out, shoot it and carry for a few days, this is by all means not a combat or target handgun, it is a in your face self defense better than nada pocket pistol that is very well made, I do not feel out gunned in any way when I carry it, best mouse/BUG gun on the planet.
Beretta Tomcat 32 acp small but not to small to shoot well. Go's bang every time.
The Kahr PM-9 is small enough to manage pocket carry and is chambered in 9mm.
It would really be stupid if a man who spent thousands and thousands of dollars on ARs and accessories got caught unarmed because he didn't want to spend the money on a firearm that could be concealled in his business wear.
What would be even more stupid would be to spend $1k on a pistol that only works 50% of the time. ;)
My Kahr PM-9 works 100%. I have heard that some of them are spotty. If I were you I would buy one, put 200 rounds of ball through it then 200 rounds of your defensive ammo. If it doesn't work after 200 rounds of ball (some of them need a break-in) send it back to the factory and keep sending it back to the factory until it works. Or send it to David Bowie or someone who does work on them.
The problem is that there are not too many guns that are small enough and still carry a 9mm round. If you want to go down to .380 (which is as low as I would go) you may have a few more options.
I agree that it sucks that your mode of dress does not allow you the option of a more powerful gun. But those are the facts.
Yes, you can carry a bigger gun in a briefcase or something. But is it going to be with you when you go to lunch? Is it going to be with you when you go to the bathroom? Is it going to be with you when you step into someone else's office or go a million other places at work?
The bottom line is from what I've seen you have at least $5000 wrapped up in ARs and AKs and accessories. If you like guns to shoot at your gun club that's fine. But if you are seriously interested in carrying in your work mode of dress there are options available.
What would be even more stupid would be to spend $1k on a pistol that only works 50% of the time. ;)
Is that 50% figure from the exhuastive non-documented sampling of 4 you mentioned earlier? ;)
Is that 50% figure from the exhuastive non-documented sampling of 4 you mentioned earlier? ;)
Or I could what, just take your word for it?
I'm having a hard time understanding why it is that you seem so upset that I'm not jumping at the chance to take your advice and either buy a J-frame that I know doesn't work for me, or a $1k crap-shoot on a gun that may or may not work for me.
Get over it for christ's sake.
My Kahr PM-9 works 100%. I have heard that some of them are spotty. If I were you I would buy one, put 200 rounds of ball through it then 200 rounds of your defensive ammo. If it doesn't work after 200 rounds of ball (some of them need a break-in) send it back to the factory and keep sending it back to the factory until it works. Or send it to David Bowie or someone who does work on them.
Gee, that sounds like loads of fun. And it sounds like it gets me so much closer to carrying a reliable gun too. Months of futzing around with it, shipping it back and forth to this guy and that guy.... yeah, productive.
The problem is that there are not too many guns that are small enough and still carry a 9mm round. If you want to go down to .380 (which is as low as I would go) you may have a few more options.
Where did I say anything about 9mm, or even .380, being the floor?
Yes, you can carry a bigger gun in a briefcase or something. But is it going to be with you when you go to lunch? Is it going to be with you when you go to the bathroom? Is it going to be with you when you step into someone else's office or go a million other places at work?
We agree here. Briefcase isn't happening.
The bottom line is from what I've seen you have at least $5000 wrapped up in ARs and AKs and accessories. If you like guns to shoot at your gun club that's fine. But if you are seriously interested in carrying in your work mode of dress there are options available.
What a silly statement. Thanks for completely discrediting yourself. Now I can ignore both your "advice" and that of mr. "I'm mad you won't buy what I tell you to" up above there.
Christ I knew this thread would turn into a complete waste of time. Mods, feel free to lock/delete. It's been about as productive as I expected it to be; not at all.
So what's the answer Rob?
What a silly statement. Thanks for completely discrediting yourself. Now I can ignore both your "advice" and that of mr. "I'm mad you won't buy what I tell you to" up above there.
Christ I knew this thread would turn into a complete waste of time. Mods, feel free to lock/delete. It's been about as productive as I expected it to be; not at all.
I see I hit a nerve. I'm not mad at you. I really don't care about you.
You came here asking for info and people gave it to you.
I understand your carry situation because I have to deal with it myself sometimes. The problem is there are not the number of options on the handgun market for a functional handgun of that size in a half decent caliber as there are in the AR or AK market for functional firearms of those varieties, so you are limited in choices and may have to go through some tweaking and spend a lot more effort.
It seems counterproductive to try to go bargain basement in money and effort to secure a gun to carry in non-permissive everyday circumstances while spending $5k+ on guns & accessories that in all liklihood you will never need outside of the range or gunclub.
Say what you want about me, but I'm not the one who is unarmed at work.
Mods, feel free to lock/delete. It's been about as productive as I expected it to be; not at all.
Then whoever started the thread should have known better.
The reality, as many people have described in whole and in part, is that there is no perfect option for your circumstances. So if someone in those circumstances chooses to reject all of the compromise solutions, they're screwed.
I'm the first to agree, if I knew four people who owned a Brand-X gun and two of them had serious problems, I'd be hard pressed to buy a Brand-X.
I think the criticism about testing the Kahr was off base, though. He said shoot 200rd of FMJ to test for functionality, then shoot 200rd of JHP for functionality, and if the gun doesn't work send it to the manufacturer. How is that different than what you'd do with any other gun? The point is, if six weeks from now you've got a gun that meets your needs and works reliably, who cares if you had to jump through a hoop or two?
Honestly, if you can't conceal a j-frame, there's nothing left but severe compromises.
Don't jump all over the people who offered advice just because their advice can't work miracles.
As I said, I have had good luck with my Kahr PM-9 out of the box. I have heard online of other people who have not and had to send it back to the company. Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of options if you are looking for a 9mm that can fit in a pocket holster and not print in pants and that may be what you are stuck with.
As I said, I can conceal the Kahr PM-9 in a pair of suit pants that have had the pocket deepened by a tailor to make the gun less likely to print and lesslikely to snag on draw. This is another expense and pain in the ass to do for all dress pants, but the circumstances dictate the measures.
If this were the AR world, we would be able to buy a Colt, LMT, or Noveske pocket gun. Unfortunately that isn't the case.
I have heard both good and bad about the Rohrbaugh. The Kahr PM-9 is only a tenth of an inch longer overall than the Rohrbaugh and the Ruger LCP which is a .380.
And while we are on the subject of pocket guns, I have had bad luck with Seecamp 32s as well. I had to send 2 back to the factory--1 because it would not function reliably and the other because it broke. In both cases it took like 8 months to get them repaired, and that was only after following up with registered letters. I believe they now went to CNC machinery so the product may be better.
I get tired of hearing of people who are all full of bluster about the effectiveness/reliability of a Glock/1911/H&K/whatever, yet go to work unarmed because nothing that they can conceal in their work environment can measure up. While I'll agree that things that might be suitable for pocket carry in business attire are lacking in terms of power/capacity/accuracy/durrability etc compared to various handguns we might be more comfortable with, they are much better than being unarmed.
rob_s,
does your potential dress code change rule out a pair of cargo pants? Some brands are a little nicer (http://www.landsend.com/pp/1pocketCargoPants~176108_-1.html?bcc=y&action=order_more&sku_0=::CAM&CM_MERCH=IDX_00001__0000000023&origin=index) than others.
I've been carrying my 6-shot Colt Agent snubby w/Mika pocket holster in my cargo shorts (leg pocket vice the front pocket) and it's no more noticeable than my wallet/cell phone in the opposite leg pocket.
If a nice pair of cargo pants would work it would open the options with what might fit...
I will say in defense of Rob, that I find a Jframe in a pocket holster does seem to make too much of a bulge in dress pants, even with the pocket deepened by a tailor.
The problem at work is that people see you all the time and may notice things, unlike people who might see you once r even occaisionally in public. Also at work you will be passing the same people all the time in tight spaces like break rooms and copier rooms.
However, I wear the Jframe in a pocket holster all the time if outside of work. It fits without any mods to the pants in things like 5-11s.
I've been on a quest to find the perfect concealed carry gun for a number of years, and I'm still not perfectly happy.
I had a Kahr PM9, and it had lots of problems in the first 300 rounds or so. It seemed fine after that, but I lost confidence in the gun. I also didn't care for the slide lock, which hit my thumb.
I had a Kel Tec P3AT, and it was horrible. It would not go a single magazine without a malfunction of some type. In addition, it just did not feel like a quality gun.
For a number of years, I've had a S&W 340PD J frame. It is reliable and light and small, but what an unpleasant gun to shoot! And I'm not really a revolver fan. I would prefer an automatic. As of now, this is the gun I carry the bulk of the time.
Recently I bought a Walther PPS. It has been very reliable, and is a pleasure to shoot. This could be my main concealed carry gun once some nice holsters are available for it. It is still a bit larger than I would prefer however. It is basically the size of a Glock 26, but narrower.
I do wish that Glock, Sig or S&W would design a quality gun the size of the Kel Tec. Perhaps it is not possible to design a truly reliable gun in that size with today's technology?
I'd forget about pocket carry and go with what the advantages you've got: pants, belt, and dress shirt.
With a solid belt and a tuckable low-riding IWB your Mustang or a slim 9mm will be truly concealed and more reliably placed than a pocket gun.
olivers_AR
05-31-08, 14:25
What a constructive and helpful post. Thank you for your insight. :rolleyes:
I find that as I move up the corporate ladder, dress codes become more and more limiting, and situations present themselves where uber-discrete carry is a must. With my build and in a pair of slacks and tucked-in button-down shirt (presuming I don't want to look like a copier repairman) carry options are extremely limited.
Consider wearing a jacket or sport coat, and maybe go a size bigger, it hides a number of sins;) The dayrunner/notebooks are interesting, but can be expensive, possibly a nicely briefcase or gymbag with a special compartment? These offer proximity to protection without having to worry about patterning.
I have been considering the same thing lately and have starting to look at small carry guns. I'm 6'-0" and 165 lbs with a tall, slender build. I've handled a Kahr PM9 but not shot it and a Kel-Tec. The Kel-Tec just didn't do it for me and I didn't really feel confident with it. I’ve also heard varying results with them. The PM9 was nice though may be at the upper edge size wise of what I think I can carry concealed. I've also considered a S&W 642 since I'm familiar with it, having shot an old model 60 a bunch in my misspent youth. However it is a bit larger than the Kahr. So far I’m still undecided. I would like to see a Ruger LCP but don’t know if it is the answer.
For myself I see .380 as the absolute minimum I would carry. I'm not condemning anyone who chooses to carry something smaller. Nor do discount those who advocate something larger. I feel it is a personal decision, based on your experiences, your abilities and of course the clothing you choose or are required to wear.
SIG had a very early prototype "mini" P239 which was essentially cut down in both the barrel and grip and had a slightly slimmer slide. It just wasn't feasible from an engineering standpoint. In particular, there was no way it would survive in any caliber greater than 9mm, and the feeling at the time was that a 9mm-only option would not be acceptable in the marketplace. In fact, I showed the SLA prototype to some prospective buyers and almost every one of them immediately responded with, "but will we be able to buy them in forty?"
Obviously, there are some physical limitations. If you start with a 9x19mm cartridge, you need a frame that is long enough and wide enough to accept a 9mm magazine. The slide, too, needs to be a certain width to fit a durable barrel chambered in 9mm. The gun needs to be robust enough to be durable (remember the response people had to the .380 Sigma when Smith said it had a limited service life?). It needs to be reliable. It needs to be accurate. You might think it could compromise on some of these things but the market has demonstrated that guns which are inaccurate don't sell, for instance.
The LCP is really the most interesting "small" gun on the market right now, in that it's being manufactured by a major company with the resources to produce a perfectly suitable firearm in that size and caliber. The question is whether the market will respond with enough demand.
The same can be said for the Walther PPS. There's nothing like it on the market from a major reputable manufacturer.
But unless the market adjusts its concept of an acceptable firearm, there's only so far things can go without a paradigm shift. For example, would you accept a gun that was only reliable for 30 rounds before needing to be disassembled and cleaned thoroughly? Thirty rounds is more than you'll need from a pocket gun in a fight, but it won't be conducive to practice. How about a gun that shoots 3" groups at 7yd? What if it was only going to last 2,000 rounds?
I will say in defense of Rob, that I find a Jframe in a pocket holster does seem to make too much of a bulge in dress pants, even with the pocket deepened by a tailor.
The problem at work is that people see you all the time and may notice things, unlike people who might see you once r even occaisionally in public. Also at work you will be passing the same people all the time in tight spaces like break rooms and copier rooms.
Ed:
I've been carrying a J frame in my pants pocket for at least 8 years. I work in an office environment. I wear regular dress slacks and khaki (dockers or similar). No one ever notice the gun or buldge. People just don't make a point to stare at a guy's front pocket, especially other men. Unless of course you live in San Francisco where there are high concentration of tuttifruitty boys. I've gone to my dentist twice a year with the j frame in the pocket, the hygienists never notice it while I recline on their chair.
The key is PLEATED FRONT pants. Straight or flat front pants do show the pocket's contents more than the pleated kind.
Or I could what, just take your word for it?
I'm having a hard time understanding why it is that you seem so upset that I'm not jumping at the chance to take your advice and either buy a J-frame that I know doesn't work for me, or a $1k crap-shoot on a gun that may or may not work for me.
Get over it for christ's sake.
Did I come across upset that you didn't "jump" at my advice? :rolleyes: Don't be in such a rush to flatter yourself dude, you're Joe Random...and don't forget it.
I don't care what you buy or don't buy....but suggesting a pistol has a 50% reliability rate based on some non-documented sample of 4 guns is irresponsible and frankly stupid.
I was offering suggestions based on your rather narrow perameters, don't like'em.......great, move on. Spare us the whining.
Discussion is fine. Personal jabs are not. Please everyone discuss the issues professionally.
Bond arms Texas Defender:D
It prints like hell on my frame. I'm 6'-1" and 170-175 lbs right now. I wear a 32" waist if I'm not carrying IWB. My cell phone prints through my pocket like I'm smuggling sausage, and if I put a J-frame in a front pocket it looks like I'm carrying a pocketfull of rocks.
Rob, is that the ONLY issue you have with the J Frame? I would imagine that there is someone here that could possibly make a viable holster suggestion for you.
I understand your dilemma, I'm built a bit like you, but am not as constrained in my choice of dress, so I guess I'm lucky.
If for some reason your coworkers figured out that you were packing, would they freak?
QuietShootr
05-21-09, 22:54
I will say in defense of Rob, that I find a Jframe in a pocket holster does seem to make too much of a bulge in dress pants, even with the pocket deepened by a tailor.
The problem at work is that people see you all the time and may notice things, unlike people who might see you once r even occaisionally in public. Also at work you will be passing the same people all the time in tight spaces like break rooms and copier rooms.
Yeah, let me tell you a story about that. I had a (very attractive) female boss a couple of years ago who really wanted a piece of me. At the time, I was carrying my 340PD in a Thunderwear rig, and thought I was reasonably undercover.
Cut to a business trip about six months later, hanging out with another female co-worker in a bar...liquor was flowing, and this girl finally tells me that the boss, a good friend of hers, was thinking I wanted to bang her just as much as she wanted to bang me...because she thought I had a hard-on every time I was in her office.
****. Me. It took me about two seconds to figure out what she was talking about. How the hell do you explain that? "Oh, no, I didn't have a woody, that was my pistol." Nope. Shit. :rolleyes:
QuietShootr
05-21-09, 22:57
Rob, is that the ONLY issue you have with the J Frame? I would imagine that there is someone here that could possibly make a viable holster suggestion for you.
I understand your dilemma, I'm built a bit like you, but am not as constrained in my choice of dress, so I guess I'm lucky.
If for some reason your coworkers figured out that you were packing, would they freak?
I suspect Rob is in the same situation as I am: Totally non-permissive environment. Get caught carrying, a fat paycheck goes down the tube, along with a reputation I have worked really ****ing hard to build.
Me being me, I won't go unarmed...but the consequences of getting caught would be bad.
i would think the ideal solution would be a G26 or G36 in a high quality tuckable holster.....if you are in a suit you tuck your shirt in over the gun....
i have seen people that use a cell phone belt "holster" to further add to concealment by essentially putting it at or near where the holster clips hit the belt....from the front it adds basically cover for your gun, and it makes it harder to see the clips....
buy some size 34 pants...a really nice IWB holster with tuckable clips (like a Raven as someone suggested) and carry a G26 with the flat mag base on it....if you need something thinner go with the G36...or the walter PPS....all are reliable guns in effective self defense calibers...
got in late on this one, didnt read the whole thread, or even more than the first 5 posts... looks like more arguing than advice.
for what it's worth, this is my "can't carry on my hip" method. you're a project manager, surely you carry a project bag much like this? i just cram my gun into a calculator pocket and a couple AR mags into the smaller large pocket.
otherwise you're gonna be wearing a blazer all day.. is the don johnson look still in style down there in south florida?
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/78/l_9b0baf3e0b82463e8f725af7b1362d2f.jpg
idreamt...
05-22-09, 00:33
I like my para p10-45.
got in late on this one, didnt read the whole thread, or even more than the first 5 posts... looks like more arguing than advice.
for what it's worth, this is my "can't carry on my hip" method. you're a project manager, surely you carry a project bag much like this? i just cram my gun into a calculator pocket and a couple AR mags into the smaller large pocket.
otherwise you're gonna be wearing a blazer all day.. is the don johnson look still in style down there in south florida?
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/78/l_9b0baf3e0b82463e8f725af7b1362d2f.jpg
bkb,
What brand bag is that one?
Thanks.
I pocket carry a Walther PPS in a Desantis Nemesis and it works great with the right pants (need fairly deep pockets). I can get away with it in some jeans, but have to put a thin (credit/business card) wallet in front to break up the outline if the pockets are tight. The Superfly is too bulky for me in all but the baggiest of pants. I'm 5'11"/180lbs.
I had a horrible experience with a Kahr PM9 and don't feel like gambling again on unknowns. The PPS has been reliable and accurate, but is a little bigger than the PM9.
The PPS carries better in the pocket than my 340PD, even though it's heavier.
I'll probably claim "HIPAA" if anyone ever asks what the lump is in my pocket at work. ;)
If a J-frame in a pocket holster did print a bit, couldn't one just say "It's my [name current electronic device de jour]"? Very few will see it to begin with, and very few will scream, "Oh my, he's packin' a heater!"
Ga Shooter
05-25-09, 07:33
I have carried a Bersa Thunder .380 for years. It is the same design as the PPKS but much cheaper. I have put 500 rds with no problems. I personally am starting to look for a slim light .45 for carry like the G36 because I am currently starting to get uncomfortable with the small caliber, but that does not seem to concern you. Also as funny as this sounds have you heard of a product called Thunderwear? It would work well for your dress code and cc. Go to www.thunderwear.com
Rob,
In the early 90s I had a job that required dress slacks and a tucked in button shirt. I had a belly band that I wore up high (over the chest area) over a t-shirt, but under my dress shirt. I carried a 642 under my left armpit this way for almost a year. It wasn't the fastest draw, but I felt it was adequate (and the best compromise avail) in the office environment. It was extremely concealed this way, and after a day or two it was quite comfortable. I was 5'11 and around 160 at the time. I was in a situation where I would have lost my job had I been 'made', but where I was unwilling to work unarmed. (some insight as to how important it was for me not to print)
This link has basic belly bands similar to what I had.. Like I said I wore the belly band up high across my chest which positioned the gun in a similar place as the concealment t-shirts they're advertising.
Anyway - good luck with it. Please let us know what you try. http://magills.com/index/44/
-c
I had a great running P3-AT that met with an unfortunate incident and I no longer have it. However, I did pocket carry in a Mitch Rosen PSF holster which is slightly padded with a suede "cover" on the out facing side so it decreases printing. I would highly recommend it if you're seeking a quality pocket holster.
Inboard side with boning.
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7080/img0172s.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0172s.jpg)
Suede out facing side, not mine.
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2770/psf20405.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=psf20405.jpg)
Size comparison:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5007/img0174w.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0174w.jpg)
A minor tangent to the thread: Last week, I received a SmartCarry holster for T&E. All day yesterday I wore my HK P30 that way. I spent about an hour driving in the car as well as two hours sitting in a movie theater. When worn properly, it is perfectly comfortable.
The draw is fairly slow, especially if you need to do it one-handed. I haven't put it on the timer yet but may get to that before leaving for WI tomorrow morning.
A number of friends & associates have advocated the SmartCarry over the years, but until I tried it for myself I didn't believe it would actually work.
It won't become my everyday carry method, but when the dress code requires a tucked in shirt, I can now carry my everyday full size pistol in essentially the same location (appendix) with almost complete stealth.
i carry my G26 in a smart carry holster. not the absolute fastest draw, but not terrible either. quite comfortable. INVISIBLE.
i guess some of the small Kahr 9mm's are a good option with this holster as well. i feel more comfortable with a Glock than a Kahr though, double stack fatness be damned.
I got two emails and a PM about this issue over the weekend and couldn't figure out why. Now I see that the thread has been revived. The truly sad part of that is that it means I've been out of the field and in the office for way to goddamn long. :mad:
Guess that means you need to get back into the shit out in the bush again before you lose your 1000 yard stare.
Guess that means you need to get back into the shit out in the bush again before you lose your 1000 yard stare.
I was at a jobsite the other day actually and it felt that way, even though I know you're being a smartass.
The PPS carries better in the pocket than my 340PD, even though it's heavier.
I find that info on the new Walther PPS very interesting.
I recently looked over a PPS at the goodies store but I wondered how it would pocket carry. It certainly is nice and thin but maybe a little taller than a G26/27.
I've been carrying a S&W 642 in an office environment for a few years now. For me, it all but disappears with pleated pants. The 642 is the same size as the 340PD (but about 3 1/2 oz heavier). The S&W J frame is a reliable little gun but I'm always looking for an improvement that is discrete for carry.
I also tried the Barami Hip Grip on my S&W642 with my shirt bloused over the top of the grip in the appendix position but unfortunately my "Dunlap’s disease" (spare tire) gets in the way when I sit with it for too long. It sounds like the OP is more trim than I am so the Barami may work for him.
Here is a link to their website:
http://www.baramihipgrip.com/
I think Midway carrys them too.
A minor tangent to the thread: Last week, I received a SmartCarry holster for T&E. All day yesterday I wore my HK P30 that way. I spent about an hour driving in the car as well as two hours sitting in a movie theater. When worn properly, it is perfectly comfortable.
The draw is fairly slow, especially if you need to do it one-handed. I haven't put it on the timer yet but may get to that before leaving for WI tomorrow morning.
A number of friends & associates have advocated the SmartCarry over the years, but until I tried it for myself I didn't believe it would actually work.
It won't become my everyday carry method, but when the dress code requires a tucked in shirt, I can now carry my everyday full size pistol in essentially the same location (appendix) with almost complete stealth.
I've been using the Smart Carry on and off for several years now. Although the guy that makes it pushes using it with 1911's, I found that guns of that profile and size didn't work too well, at least not for me. But using a smaller, more compact pistol in the Smart Carry (like my Kahr Pm9, the LCP when I had one, and also my M&P 9c) enables me to carry without printing and with complete comfort.
The closest thing I have to a pocket pistol is a G26......I've been tempted to get a Kahr....Cylinder and Slide offers tuned up Kahrs for a little over a grand...I would think that Laughridge would not put his name (mustache) on a unreliable gun....
Currently, I cannot afford such a price tag
The closest thing I have to a pocket pistol is a G26......I've been tempted to get a Kahr....Cylinder and Slide offers tuned up Kahrs for a little over a grand...I would think that Laughridge would not put his name (mustache) on a unreliable gun....
Currently, I cannot afford such a price tag
Good call on the C&S Kahr. My Dad has one of those custom P9's from C&S, that is a great pistol. A bit pricey (they cost more than a Rohrbaugh), but in their C&S custom form, they are also an extremely reliable and well functioning gun.
Bolt_Overide
05-26-09, 01:09
My normal carry gun is either a g19 or g26 in a bladetech tuckable IWB, I tried the pocket gun thing, and it just didnt work out, it wasnt comfortable, I was paranoid about people staring at the bulge, and I didnt have a lot of confidence in a 380.
But... the seacamp I had NEVER once malfunctioned, and it was bone stock. I dont know the exact round count, but it was over 500 and under 1k.
Staying inside the parameters of the original question, my experience;
We allow small caliber guns for BUGs and off-duty here, as low as they are reliable and the shooter can pass the qual course with the gun. Also, my wife started her CCH with a P32. All of this led me to some interest (I was our rangemaster for a few years) in what one can and can not accomplish with a pop gun.
The .32, even with ball ammo, barely makes the FBI minimum penetration. Don't know if this matters to you or not.
In my testing the .32 Gold Dot will do 11" in gelatin without any real expansion, only goes about 7" in bare gelatin.
In .32 I would pick the most reliable ball ammo for your gun and forget about anything else.
The .380 Gold Dot will expand to like .47 and still penetrate 11 1/2" of gelatin in the testing we did here.
In live shootings, such as the one detailed on the 'In the Line of Duty' training tape from an incident in Alabama, .380 ball can penetrate more than enough to pass through a suspect's arms and still give good penetration into the upper torso.
In the .380 (and well, the .32 for that matter) I would go with the Winchester flat point FMJ, assuming reliability in your gun.
Were my choices be limited to being armed with a .32 or .380 and being unarmed, I'll take the pop gun, thank you very much. Same goes for the choice of a .25, although I would trade the .25 for either the .32 or .380 without hesitation.
I have qual'd with my wife's P32 just to see how well I could score and was able to pass the state course on my first attempt, and to max the course at one point shooting it for fun.
My recent Ruger LCP experiment gave similar results.
At my job we have two guys carrying P3ATs, both have had reliable guns, and both are able to pass the qual course without any great difficulty.
We also have two guys carrying Kahr PM9s, both are reliable guns.
My wife now has a PM9 as well. Her gun has required about a 325 round break-in before it started running 100% reliably.
Of the available choices, your cheapest and easiest will be the Kel Tecs. You may or may not get a reliable gun with the Kel Tecs, although all of my experience has been good in personal observation of our limited sample.
Now-a-days you may have a heck of a time finding enough .32 or .380 ammo to be able to even test reliability of whatever gun you choose.
A friend has two Berettas (Tomcat and Bobcat if memory serves) that he uses for a similar carry mission that you describe. One is a .32, the other is a .22
The .32 was shot enough to confirm reliability, the .22 has then been used for extensive practice (due to cost since it has the same grip, trigger, capacity, sights as the .32).
This guy shoots ALOT, like 1000-2000 rounds a month normally, and has become quite good with his mini gun, which I tend to think leaves him far better armed than folks with larger caliber carry pistols who don't happen to practice nearly as much.
1_click_off
05-26-09, 17:38
I've thought about the little Kahrs, but haven't played with them much and a few guys I know locally have had enough trouble with them that they got rid of them. I'm also not REAL excited about spending nearly $1k on one either.
I own a PM45 and love it. The gun was horriable with FTF and stovepipes when new. White box yeah right, +P or nothing. Well a friend introduced me to a system he calls fluff and buff. 1500 grit sandpaper, lightly touch up all sliding surfaces on the slide and then put some mil-tec on it and a couple hundred hand worked cycles while watching tv and I can put anything through it. Has not FTF or any issues since.
Now for the posts to come..... I FULLLY agree that a $700 pistol should be fully functional and polished from the factory. But now I carry it more than my G27
sigmundsauer
05-26-09, 18:47
I don't think any pocket pistol at any price point in truly defensive-worthy calibers is ever going to be more than a calculated compromise.
Personally, I prefer the J-frame with a ClipDraw mounted. I've carried mine in my waistband completely and totally discreetly for years. My 342PD is light enough to not drag down boxer shorts around the house, and can be 100% discreet under any manner of T-shirt when outside. It is THE way to carry a J-frame, imo. If you prefer CrimsonTrace grips this option is out.
On the autopistol front, I am not interested in .380 pistols. .38 +P is my minimum social caliber. I prefer 9mm if an autopistol is in the cards. In 9mm I think the Rohrbaugh R9 is the only game in town. Opinions differ, but at the stiff ~$1200 or so price tag you will certainly get a supremely crafted and well engineered pistol, but 9mm is a tremendous amount of firepower to pack into such a diminutive package. That comes with trade-offs. I think the R9 is the best but it's not perfect. It can work beautifully well but it must be tested thoroughly with the loads that you intend to carry with it. If the pistol doesn't like the cartridge be prepared to switch. There are many good choices. Standard pressure Speer Gold Dots seem to work well across the board in the Rohrbaugh.
Just like some can spend $1400 on a short-barreled AR of top quality, the inherent design trade-offs compromise reliability somewhat. Pocket pistols are no different. The Rohrbaugh is well designed and crafted but you need to spend time to find the right load and not ditch the pistol just because it doesn't work 100% with every manifestation of the 9mm cartridge on the market today. It's not a Glock, SIG or HK full sized combat pistol.
The R9 has its place and delivers a full power 9mm payload but it's not without caveats. The J-frame is the closest thing to a 100% pocket pistol one is likely to find.
Tim
I know that the Beretta pocket pistols do not have a following here, but I have had a Model 21A (.22L) for 15-20 years and love it. I recently got a model 3032 "Tomcat" in .32 ACP and have only fired 28 rounds down range but so far it seems really nice. Exact same size as my old .22L version, but its like the .22L on steroids!
I also work as a "professional" and a pistol is a no-no. Actually, inside the work property there are no pistols or rifles aside from the few hundred Bushmaster M4's and the Beretta M4 pistols on the security team. My pistol has to be well hidden in the car to evade any spot vehicle searches. I can drop my Beretta's into a front pocket of thin shorts, jeans, cargos.... just about anywhere. My model 21A has hundreds upon hundreds of trouble free rounds through it. I can't say enough about them... based on my persnal experiance.
There are some issues with the 3032 cracking the main frame, I have the latest design with the longer/larger safety lever (you can see it in the picture below) and this newer design is not supposed to have that crack issue. Beretta has been very good with replacing out of warranty crack/defect pistols and upgrading them to the stainless version if your one the unfortunate folks that has this issue. I hope I don't have this problem.... I do not want a stainless pistol.
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Pistols/100_3039.jpg
For size comparison, this is my Glock model 17 beside the Tomcat .32 ACP.
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Pistols/100_2511.jpg
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Pistols/100_2512.jpg
This just debuted, I think:
Microtech Archangel 9mm
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g124/ClarenceLadd/MT_Archangels.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g124/ClarenceLadd/MT_Archangel.jpg
Another vote for the Kahr PM9. I have about 1000rds thru mine( 100 rds of it being Corbons). No problems after the first 200rds.
This just debuted, I think:
Microtech Archangel 9mm
Now that has me interested. I like the sound of a 9x19 pocket gun about the size of my Beretta's!
Beat Trash
05-27-09, 18:12
I owned a .32acp SeeCamp for about two years. Carried it as a backup gun while on duty. I sold it off when I noticed it key holed with the Silvertip rounds at about 5 yds.
I have a Glock 26, carry it in a kydex pocket holster made by FIST, it works ok in cargo type shots. But it's heavy. Up side is that it's reliable and I can shoot it almost as well as a full size gun.
Owned a Beretta .32 tomcat for about two weeks. The rear of my trigger finger would get pinched behind the trigger to the point it would prevent the hammer from dropping, not to mention it hurt a wee bit.
I own a S&W 642. Really want to love the gun, but it prints a bit too much for me. I carried one in a rear pocket as a back up gun for a couple years (back up guns unauthorized, so must hide existence from co-workers, great huh?).
I own a Kahr PM9. I bought mine used, but in like new condition. I guess mine might be the exception, from what I have read on the internet, but mine has been 100% reliable for me. I carry the 147gr WW Ranger loading in mine, same load I carry in all of my personally owned guns (RA9T for those who keep track of such stuff).
The PM9 lives in a cheap Uncle Mikes pocket holster. I keep meaning to order it a more hi-tech holster, but the el-cheap'o Uncle Mikes works fine.
Truth be told, I don't pocket carry a primary gun that often. I have been using IWP "Tuckable"type holsters (Blade Tec UCH) since about 2002. I can tuck in my shirt and make a Glock 19 disappear.
My PM9 is for those times that I just can't be armed, such as church, the in-laws, ect.
I have a real hard time going smaller than a 9mm for a defensive gun. The 642 in 38 spc is pushing it in my mind. I use the Speer 135gr +P loading. As much as I like the idea of the 642, I can shoot my PM9 more efficiently than my 642.
The Ruger LCP in 380 looks neat, but it's still a 380...
I looked at the Walther PPS. The one I saw made the Glock 26 sitting next to it look small, so I didn't even bother asking the salesman to get it out.
For those who own a PPS, does it make a better pocket gun than a G26?
I have been on the quest for the perfect pocket gun for almost 20 years. I am afraid that, like the quest for the "holy grail", it will be a never ending search. Until then, I will stand in front of my safe on those days I feel like carrying a pocket gun thinking, "Hmm... Glock 26, PM9, or 642...).
Why not a derringer? I realize the limitations but you don't have many options. Two rounds of .357 would probably get the job done in many situations.
On the Kahr note. You can find P-9's and PM-9s for $500-575 fairly easy. I've used a P-9 alot in "non-permissive" work places for about 10 years. "First Sergeant what's that?" ,was never something I wanted to hear and since retiring I have similure issues.
My P-9 has several thousand rounds through it with no major issues. Mine is a early model, 1999 and did have to have the trigger pin upgraded to the new design early on(it's only issue). never stopped the pistol from functioning though. I picked up the PM-9 a few years ago as part of a trade to unload a .460 SW i won from a NRA raffle. I recieved it used and have about a 500 trouble free rounds through it. That said I find it to be only slightly easier to conceal then the P-9 and harder to control. I still have it, but it's more for referance.
I usualy carry the P-9 in a tuckable holster and for select meetings will transfer it for my bag. I also sometimes carry a old Colt Agent. Unlike either Kahr, I find I can draw it fairly easily from my Mika pocket holster. The rear of the slides on the Kahr hang up for me, while the bobed Agent will slide right out. I have yet to find a combo of pistol and pocket holster that doesn't print on me.
That said I still prefer the Kahr.
http://pro-patria.us/Carry.jpg
your milage may very
Powder_Burn
05-28-09, 13:39
I just traded a 360PD J-frame for a 9mm Walther PPS. My initial impressions are as follows:
The PPS is very thin - only about as thick as a dime and flatter than my J-frame.
They both have about the same overall length/height but the extra clearance allowed by the arched shape of the revolver makes a J-frame more comfortable to carry in a Smartcarry/Thunderwear rig.
I carried .357 Short Barrel Gold Dots which were both less controllable and less powerful than their 9mm counterparts in the Walther platform. Full race .357 was out of the question for me.
The 360PD is lighter but the extra weight of the PPS hasn't been that noticeable.
The PPS totally disappears in a Comp-Tac M-TAC under an untucked casual shirt with bloused undershirt (even with the 8 round mag). This includes situations when you twist and/or bend over to pick something up.
You can pocket carry the PPS with the 6 & 7 round mag although I personally consider it's size to be on the outer limit. I use a thin FIST kydex pocket holster that works best in deep/wide pockets. Tighter pockets cause it to look like you are carrying around a cigar case in your pocket to anyone paying close attention.
6, 7, & 8 round mags are hideously expensive at $57 each from Walther USA
All in all it seems to be a good compromise since you get a service grade caliber with 3.2" of barrel in a thin concealable package. The open question is real world toughness/reliability but anecdotal reports seem to be positive (esp on the more recent runs of pistols - AC prefix). I did not consider the PM9 due to my past negative experiences with Kahr products.
Littlelebowski
05-28-09, 13:42
Another vote for the PPS. Sort of like the single stack Glock that Glock refuses to build.
ROCKET20_GINSU
05-28-09, 15:23
I took beat trash's advice and picked up a G26, and I added the new crimson trace trigger guard laser.
I wear cargo shorts / pants quite a bit and I like this carry option alot. I've been using a FIST pocket holster as well (yep the cut it to fit the crimson trace laser) and it works great.
I also have a S&W 642 that works really well in a mika pocket holster.
I picket up the G26 because I wanted a more potent firearms platform than the 642 because often this is the only gun that I have with me. Its reliable, compact, and 10+1 in the gun and another 17 in the other pocket of 9mm is enough to give me a sense of comfort :D.
observations:
While the G26 and 642 look close on paper and when placed side to side, the 642 is really still the easier pistol to pocket carry and draw. It is slimmer around the grip where it counts so I can get a full grip, and the profile allows this grip to remain unbroken as it clears the opening of the pocket. I think the 642 is a better option for pocket carry if you wear more formal clothing, suits, slacks, etc.
I found that while I can carry the G26 in the pocket of most pants / shorts, sometime the pocket opening is not wide enough to allow me to maintain a good grip on the pistol during presentation. That is something to be wary of. The grip of the G26, because it is a magazine fed weapon is substantially larger than the 642 so the larger grip also makes your fist larger as you draw the weapon, and sometimes its a tight fit. It does print alot more than a 642 but its really a non issues to me. I have so much junk in my pockets anyway (keys, wallets, flashlight, folding knife, blackberry, etc.) that no one really pays any attention to the bulge of my pockets, I feel much more self conscious with the printing of my G19 IWB when I'm wearing a shirt thats a bit tight.
even with the con of a slightly more difficult pocket draw in mind I still choose the G26 for pocket carry on most occasions.
G26
Reliable
10 + 1 capacity of 9mm
quicker reloading
same manual of arms as my other guns (G19 and G34)
carries well in large pockets
a bit harder to present from the pocket than a 642
new crimson trace laser works great with this pistol
I agree with beat trash, in that this is the only pocket sized pistol I've come across that I can shoot nearly as well as its full size counterparts. It carries well, draws ok, and shoots great. This compromise works well for me.
GU
badcatbigbat
05-29-09, 22:44
I am very pleased with my Kel-Tec P3AT. I have only withdrew the weapon once in response to B&E. However, my presence (and the P3AT) ended that act. I truly believe that the perps were surprised that someone was there to witness their act and respond so quickly, not so much the size of my pocket rocket. It does follow the 1st rule of a gunfight, have a gun.
http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/badcatbigbat/DSC_0168_edited.jpg
Try a Milt Sparks Versa Max with the tuckable clips for your mustang. I had that set up for awhile and could easily conceal it under a fitted dress shirt. Just make sure that you aren't wearing to fine a weave on your dress shirt as depending on the color of your grips a shadow might show through your shirt.
I currently have 3 small pistols; a Colt Mustang, a Kel Tec .32, and a NAA .22 magnum. They are, in order, too big to carry in my pocket, too unreliable for me to feel comfortable with, and too puny of a bullet for me to feel totally secure.
I'm also not built for revolver pocket carry. I've tried it, it doesn't work.
Rob, I've got a Glock 27 that I carry in a belt holster when I'm wearing loose-fitting Hawaiian shirts. However, when I need to dress up, my Colt Mustang is my compromise carry piece.
Is .380 less desirable than .40? Of course it is, but having a .380 in the pocket is better than the .40 in the car.
The Mustang conceals well in a front pocket; it just requires a more generous cut than some of the more form-fitting slacks.
If I was looking for another gun for pocket carry, the Ruger LCP looks like a good choice, too. And it's lighter than the Mustang and doesn't have a single-action-only hammer that needs to be carried cocked and locked.
If you're not completely opposed to the idea, I'd give the Mustang another chance. Just try pants with roomier pockets.
tombirdman
05-31-09, 13:04
I currently have 3 small pistols; a Colt Mustang, a Kel Tec .32, and a NAA .22 magnum. They are, in order, too big to carry in my pocket, too unreliable for me to feel comfortable with, and too puny of a bullet for me to feel totally secure.
I'm also not built for revolver pocket carry. I've tried it, it doesn't work.
So, what are the options? Is Seacamp still a worthy option? Are they still ridiculously expensive? Are the NAA .32s and .380s worth a look? Is there any real advantage to .380 over .32 out of such a tiny gun?
I like that I can get Crimson Trace grips for the NAA, can you get them for the Seacamp as well?
The answere is the Makarov and variants - PPK improvement in cartridge and gun. Good hollowpoints available from the best manufacturers.
The HK P7M8 and PSP are better yet and 9mm
whitecoyote
06-01-09, 05:47
One pocket pistol that has not been mentioned here, a Colt Pocket 9.
I know they are not made anymore, but they can still be found.
Just something to think about.:cool:
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