View Full Version : 14.5" Recce/"Do-all" build conundrum
I am torn between a 14.5" carbine vs. midlength build, for use with a suppressor about 75% of the time.
Daniel Defense is the build, it's the "configurator" for an upper that I will be using.
EVERYTHING can/would be IDENTICAL except the barrel/gas system. So rail, etc. won't enter into this discussion.
Reasons I like the idea of the midlength:
-Shoots smoother
-Less wear and tear
Reasons I like the idea of the Carbine system:
-Can run a heavier buffer (H2 likely) for more mass/more reliability
-More likely to cycle cheap ammo for training
-The military has used 14.5/Carbine gas in 1 or 2 rifles on 1 or 2 missions and it works.
Unknowns:
Will the smaller carbine port but longer dwell-time equate to better, or worse over-gassing when suppressed? Which will matter more, dwell time, or port-size? The suppressor effectively over-gasses either by adding dwell time, but which will be overgassed more?
Will the 14.5" middy run Wolf, MFS, Silver-Bear, and other "cheap" training ammo just fine?
Knowns:
-Daniel Defense builds their M4A1 rifle with a carbine-length gas system.
Things to keep in mind:
This is NOT a 16" middy. This is a 14.5" NFA build. Yes, the lower is already registered, and has a 10.3" 300BLK upper, so no lecture from the "Go as short as you can!" crowd. BTDT. The suppressor is a 556 SOCOM Mini Surefire.
The rest of the build as planned:
-Kahles K16i in LT104 mount (I hate LaRue, but the levers are out of the way/minimal footprint, the split-rings are a win, and the mount has good reviews)
-Surefire M600 Ultra at 1:30, unsure of the mount
-Surefire SR series tape-switch mounted at 12*
-Folding BUIS, unsure which one's yet (If I go Unity Tactical/VTAC, then that handles the light mount and BUIS, just unsure at this time which way)
-BCM Gunfighter CH
-Registered DDM4 complete SBR'ed lower
-B5 SOPMOD
-SF FH/SOCOM Mount
-BCM Shorty VFG
-Geissele Super-V trigger
I cannot speak on the effect the suppressor will have on the system, but I have a 14.5 middy and if I were to buy another 14.5 I would get a carbine gassed barrel to have better reliability with cheap ammo.
I cannot speak on the effect the suppressor will have on the system, but I have a 14.5 middy and if I were to buy another 14.5 I would get a carbine gassed barrel to have better reliability with cheap ammo.
Can you share more details (brand of barrel/ammo it isn't liking/what buffer, etc.?)
Might want to post your question in the AR forum, although there's already a ton of carbine vs middy threads.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1015576
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If you're running a suppressor, I'd choose the midlength gas on a 14.5". If not suppressed, I'd get a lightweight barrel with carbine gas.
decodeddiesel
04-16-14, 11:37
This is really a thread for the technical section, as you have some very specific questions. I would PM a mod and ask it to be moved.
The can WILL add some backpressure, so middy is the answer there. If it's part-time, the A5 can make it run adequately unsuppressed as a middy, and still brilliantly with a can.
For my part, light offset sights fit my do-all recce requirements quite well, it helps that the KAC ones are ridiculously light as well. Same idea with the weaponlight - 3V SF scout type setups save even more weight on the nose end of the rifle, and it's only matter of time before SF has 3V Vampire heads, for now it's a nonissue since I haven't needed IR illumination for that yet. If cost is a concern, the VTAC L4-3V is a very affordable light, and any aftermarket mount will do.
My honest answer on the ammo front is that if your final setup runs junky ammo, cool, but don't build around it. For it to be an optic worthy of $2k worth of glass, make it function well with proper brass ammunition, you can always configure a different rifle to digest junk. A lighter buffer on hand can make it run unsuppressed with cheap stuff a ton better, so if you have to make that work it can be an alternate configuration, but the focus should be to make it run the best possible with prime ammunition. A do-all recce is a challenging enough setup to make work, don't hurt it's longer range capability or shot recovery with building the rifle around underpressured stuff.
As much as you're going to hear the 'make it as short as you can' nonsense, there is still a case for seeing what you can pull off with a 12.5" in the same weight range. 1-6x seems like a lot of optic, but with a can on there you're back to looking at a really stout carbine that is more maneuverable, and as a side effect of the carbine gas paired with that, you'll be able to run anything through most likely.
The can WILL add some backpressure, so middy is the answer there. If it's part-time, the A5 can make it run adequately unsuppressed as a middy, and still brilliantly with a can.
For my part, light offset sights fit my do-all recce requirements quite well, it helps that the KAC ones are ridiculously light as well. Same idea with the weaponlight - 3V SF scout type setups save even more weight on the nose end of the rifle, and it's only matter of time before SF has 3V Vampire heads, for now it's a nonissue since I haven't needed IR illumination for that yet. If cost is a concern, the VTAC L4-3V is a very affordable light, and any aftermarket mount will do.
My honest answer on the ammo front is that if your final setup runs junky ammo, cool, but don't build around it. For it to be an optic worthy of $2k worth of glass, make it function well with proper brass ammunition, you can always configure a different rifle to digest junk. A lighter buffer on hand can make it run unsuppressed with cheap stuff a ton better, so if you have to make that work it can be an alternate configuration, but the focus should be to make it run the best possible with prime ammunition. A do-all recce is a challenging enough setup to make work, don't hurt it's longer range capability or shot recovery with building the rifle around underpressured stuff.
As much as you're going to hear the 'make it as short as you can' nonsense, there is still a case for seeing what you can pull off with a 12.5" in the same weight range. 1-6x seems like a lot of optic, but with a can on there you're back to looking at a really stout carbine that is more maneuverable, and as a side effect of the carbine gas paired with that, you'll be able to run anything through most likely.
I have a 10.3 300blk and 10.3 5.56 already. A 12.5 5.56 would be giving up more velocity than I want for this build without much benefit and be a pita unsuppressed. I'm set on 14.5 for better or worse. With my suppressor I am looking at an effective barrel length of 18.75 to 19.25". About like a 16" gun with a vortex, or close enough.
My angle with carbine gas was that I could run an H2 or H3 buffer vs. An h. This would give more inertia and reliability with a dirty gun wouldn't it, or am I all wet there?
The m600u is only 1.5oz more than the m300u. Thoughts? I thought the 300 extra lumens justified it but maybe not. Did you know it was so near the same weight or does this change your opinion?
Yes, 6x is a lot but it's the lightest true 1x variable with daylight visible reticle illumination that I have found. It should be point and click 0 - 300m with my browntip 70gr stuff.
If you could live with a 1-5x , Kahles also has their new K15i with G4b reticle for approx $360 less. http://www.sportoptics.com/kahles-1-5-10548.aspx
If you already have the M600, or are picking it up used (the 6V tend to be cheaper), that 1.5oz is miniscule, but if you're going from scratch, it's less weight on the nose, which is nice.
The carbine gas can work, it's more of a case where I'm really impressed in my experience with the 14.5 middy units when paired with the A5, which are truly their own animal for being able to run a wide spectrum of gas port impulse profiles really well - the A5H2 can really do a ton of things well.
6x is the sweet spot, I'm with you on that. My do-all recce is set up with the Leupy Mk6 - cheaper, but not without minor issues on the illumination, so I'm with you that a 1-6x optic is the answer for the range of a 5.56 rifle. 14.5" will do that full range just fine, I guess the next step down for usefulness would be a lighter/handier SBR ala 12.5" with a light 1-4x that's set up for tighter spaces (urban recce), so if you're basically running this as the leggy sibling of your Mk18, then go with exactly that. If the rail you're using, or a factory upper is already set up that way, run carbine without hesitation (especially if you see a DD RIS-II equipped one for a deal). Otherwise, the middy will fit that role a touch better in my opinion, honestly finding anything with the barrel profile you want should be the priority, gas port location secondary.
I plan on sticking with a mil-spec re/buffer type setup.
With a can on, you can run a h3 with springco blue on a 14.5" middy and run everything. Now if you take off the suppressor... Likely it won't work so well with weak ammo.
With a can on, you can run a h3 with springco blue on a 14.5" middy and run everything. Now if you take off the suppressor... Likely it won't work so well with weak ammo.
That's about what I would have guessed - I'm running an H2/Springco Blue on a 16" Middy, but that's a reflex can (M4-S) that probably isn't providing that much backpressure. If mil RE/buffer is the requirement, it's not going to be super smooth and still run crap, at that point if you still need it to run Tula/Silver Bear/Wolf without changing the buffer/spring, then carbine/H buffer is probably the closest thing to a good answer. Otherwise, I'd say run a sprinco Blue, H2 or H3 as your primary setup, and keep a standard spring and a lighter buffer for when you need to run it with lower pressure stuff sans can, since the latter are cheap parts (in that in one afternoon, the savings in ammo cost can basically pay for the CAR/H buffer and stock spring).
That's about what I would have guessed - I'm running an H2/Springco Blue on a 16" Middy, but that's a reflex can (M4-S) that probably isn't providing that much backpressure. If mil RE/buffer is the requirement, it's not going to be super smooth and still run crap, at that point if you still need it to run Tula/Silver Bear/Wolf without changing the buffer/spring, then carbine/H buffer is probably the closest thing to a good answer. Otherwise, I'd say run a sprinco Blue, H2 or H3 as your primary setup, and keep a standard spring and a lighter buffer for when you need to run it with lower pressure stuff sans can, since the latter are cheap parts (in that in one afternoon, the savings in ammo cost can basically pay for the CAR/H buffer and stock spring).
A 16" middlength gas system has the same length of barrel past the gas-port as does a 14.5" carbine system. Lots less data to pull from once you throw that out there, as 16" and 14.5" barrels behave differently with the same length gas systems on them.
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/pressure-time.gif
You have been a member for quite a while-
The custom build area is a place to show off/discuss and ask questions and get feedback about your completed custom build (this means a completed AR that is functional and already completed). If you are going to post pictures of your build, please post a complete picture not just your parts, partial lowers, etc....
Also, buying an upper separate and then a lower and throwing them together does not constitute a custom build. It would be nice if you took time to explain how you came to your decision and explain your set up. Thanks.
If you do not follow the guidelines and your post disappears it's probably because it was moved to the trash or deleted.
You have been a member for quite a while-
The custom build area is a place to show off/discuss and ask questions and get feedback about your completed custom build (this means a completed AR that is functional and already completed). If you are going to post pictures of your build, please post a complete picture not just your parts, partial lowers, etc....
Also, buying an upper separate and then a lower and throwing them together does not constitute a custom build. It would be nice if you took time to explain how you came to your decision and explain your set up. Thanks.
If you do not follow the guidelines and your post disappears it's probably because it was moved to the trash or deleted.
Thank-you. Understood.
How did I come to my decision? Specifically regarding my choice of barrel length and optics, or...?
Eurodriver
04-17-14, 06:07
It seems silly to me that you're already having an NFA upper and you want a "do it all" rifle but you're not looking at the 12.5"
^^this is what I'd be doing if i were in his shoes. 12.5 with a variable optic. Then again he did touch on the 12.5 in post #8 and how it trades off more velocity than he would like.
WS6, i know you said youre set on a 14.5 for better or worse but I remember reading a post about constructor's 12.5 1/8 5R barrel yielding higher velocities than a 14.5.
^^this is what I'd be doing if i were in his shoes. 12.5 with a variable optic. Then again he did touch on the 12.5 in post #8 and how it trades off more velocity than he would like.
WS6, i know you said youre set on a 14.5 for better or worse but I remember reading a post about constructor's 12.5 1/8 5R barrel yielding higher velocities than a 14.5.
Understood, but the extra 2" of powder burn is going to make it much nicer to shoot unsuppressed, as well as kinder to my suppressor (I refuse to run a brake, see the first half of this sentence). It's not just velocity I'm looking at, but powder-burn, concussion, blast, etc.
I really just have no use for a shorty anymore after getting some actual trigger-time in and around vehicles. I actually think I prefer a 14.5"-16" gun in a car at this point.
This is my reason for the 14.5" barrel.
-Concussion (for my sake)
-Powder-burn (for the sake of the suppressor)
-Velocity (goes hand-in-hand with the above 2, and while a polygonal rifled barrel would fix this, it does nothing for the other 2 aspects).
Another aspect is that I am stuck on the DDM4 rail. It's about the same weight as a slick Troy Alpha of the same weight (including barrel nut), and I like at least 10" of rail on the small side, especially with how I want to run the SR tapeswitch. The DDM4 rail comes in 9" and 12" lengths, respectively.
The reason I have not considered the KMR and other rails is that I perceive (I have not shot one) that they heat up faster, and I have gotten my DD rails plenty hot as-is, to the point that I am glad I wear gloves and cover them in Index-clips. Also, the VFG's currently on the market interface "smoother" with the 1913 rail when you butt index clips up against them. I use my VFG as a hand-stop, as well as a "tool" for stand-off and on my ankle, and other things when doing 1-handed drills (A'la VTAC), which is why a simple hand-stop won't work for me. The BCM Shorty VFG is PERFECT for me. I just like the 1913 interface, at this time, is all I'm saying. The lightest 1913 rail I know of is the DDM4 (12oz for a 12" rail, including barrel nut, I believe), thus, another reason I am looking at the 14.5" barrel. A 12" rail won't work on a 12.5" barrel, esp. considering the DDM4 rail is 12.44", "technically".
Eurodriver
04-17-14, 07:12
Understood, but the extra 2" of powder burn is going to make it much nicer to shoot unsuppressed, as well as kinder to my suppressor (I refuse to run a brake, see the first half of this sentence). It's not just velocity I'm looking at, but powder-burn, concussion, blast, etc.
I really just have no use for a shorty anymore after getting some actual trigger-time in and around vehicles. I actually think I prefer a 14.5"-16" gun in a car at this point.
This is my reason for the 14.5" barrel.
-Concussion (for my sake)
-Powder-burn (for the sake of the suppressor)
-Velocity (goes hand-in-hand with the above 2, and while a polygonal rifled barrel would fix this, it does nothing for the other 2 aspects).
Have you ever shot a 12.5"? Blast with a FH is similar to a 14.5". If there is more concussion, it isn't noticeable. And I've fired a bunch of rounds through my 12.5" with both an M42000 and 762SD with no issues on the first baffle.
The velocity loss is 100fps or so. Is that really going to matter?
Its your rifle, and you can do with it as you wish. I've had 14.5" and 16" "do it alls", but without a doubt my favorite is the 12.5"
It shoots to 565 yards just as well as the 14.5" with no trade offs.
Have you ever shot a 12.5"? Blast with a FH is similar to a 14.5". If there is more concussion, it isn't noticeable. And I've fired a bunch of rounds through my 12.5" with both an M42000 and 762SD with no issues on the first baffle.
The velocity loss is 100fps or so. Is that really going to matter?
Its your rifle, and you can do with it as you wish. I've had 14.5" and 16" "do it alls", but without a doubt my favorite is the 12.5"
It shoots to 565 yards just as well as the 14.5" with no trade offs.
I have not. I just know my 10.3" is horrible. I will re-evaluate the 12.5 and my options, given this. I thought that the 12.5" would be closer to the 10.3" than to the 14.5", honestly.
After looking at rail-space, etc. I don't know if the 9" rail is going to give me the room I want with the K16i, to run the SR switch how I want, etc.
Here is a 10.5" barrel and a 14.5" gun with a Z6i mounted on it for reference (the K16i's Swarovski twin)
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/goteron/4EE6107C-A4EB-49ED-9510-9CCA936F8C72-1780-00000187775A2043.jpg
The bottom gun is setup almost identical to what I have in mind, actually.
I'd go with the Middy.
My BCM 14.5 mid with H buffer and standard carbine spring has been 100%, even with Tula (however this was after several thousand of M193 and that old Hornady 55gr "training" ammo). Start changing with the recipe in terms of buffer and spring weights, and you'll get problems.
If you're not going to run the FSP, and you're going to attach a lot of stuff, might as well just go with a 13" rail.
As far as velocity:
http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/barrel6.jpg
That's with M855.
Since you already have a 10.5 I'd just get the 14.5. Better tools for the job. Remember, there is no "one to do it all". Everything has advantages and limitations.
I'd go with the Middy.
My BCM 14.5 mid with H buffer and standard carbine spring has been 100%, even with Tula (however this was after several thousand of M193 and that old Hornady 55gr "training" ammo). Start changing with the recipe in terms of buffer and spring weights, and you'll get problems.
If you're not going to run the FSP, and you're going to attach a lot of stuff, might as well just go with a 13" rail.
As far as velocity:
http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/barrel6.jpg
That's with M855.
Since you already have a 10.5 I'd just get the 14.5. Better tools for the job. Remember, there is no "one to do it all". Everything has advantages and limitations.
Kindof where I am headed with the thing.
BCM...those barrels don't come from Daniel Defense, do they? Also, from what I understand, BCM's gas-ports are more tuned for 5.56 while Daniel Defense's are a bit more open, yes? I wonder if this carries over to their 14.5's.
I heard/read that BCMs are hammer forged by FN. i cannot confirm this.
I dont know what port size they run on their 14.5 middy but I remember asking Joe Marler what port size theirs had and IIRC, he said ".078 for better reliability", i assume across a wider range of ammunition. This was some years ago when 14.5 middy's were all the rage and I dont know if they still run the same size or how big or little a diff that is/was to BCM's at the time.
Eurodriver
04-17-14, 08:52
That chart just verifies what I've been saying - you only gain 100fps between a 12.5" and 14.5". You've already got an NFA lower. Why not pin a muzzle device on a 14.5" and throw it on a Title I lower and put the 12.5" on the SBR?
Again, no dog in this fight. Just trying to save you tons of money, money that I wish I had saved.
After looking at rail-space, etc. I don't know if the 9" rail is going to give me the room I want with the K16i, to run the SR switch how I want, etc.
Here is a 10.5" barrel and a 14.5" gun with a Z6i mounted on it for reference (the K16i's Swarovski twin)
http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/goteron/4EE6107C-A4EB-49ED-9510-9CCA936F8C72-1780-00000187775A2043.jpg
The bottom gun is setup almost identical to what I have in mind, actually.
Part of the difference for configurations I run is that the 1.93-2.01" height scope mounts frees up room under the optic for a DBAL, which makes the shorter setups more attractive. Since you've mentioned length and wanting to find the goldilocks setup, to be completely honest I've even been messing with the idea of running a 13.7" barrel as an SBR setup (with URX3 10.75"), but the honest answer is that it doesn't make a ton of sense.
The 14.5" is fairly easily justified for a TitleII lower owner wanting a do-all recce, but the 12.5" can still do a lot in that regard too, it's more of a case where the difference between a shorter than 3' long gun and longer than 3' long gun is unusually huge, especially when some of the densest handling part is dangling off the muzzle (in an inch and a half wide cylinder), so tucking that even even am measly 2" can really do a lot.
As far as handguard, if you're already happy running the Troy's, the KMR will fill that role just as well, being extremely light, with the BCM mini-VFG and some key-mod panels, you'll be more than adequately isolated thermally if you have a bunch of plastic around there - iirc the KAC cover is probably the best candidate for that. I've always felt that lighter longer guns handle like shorter ones, so little stuff like running a 3V Scout and KMR rail can make it an easier rifle to run - same idea with the offset KAC sights - that means you can run a much lighter (if you like that height over bore, the API super-light might be the best option) fixed scope mount without losing and effectiveness.
Don't get Gunz started on the source of the BCM barrels, but right now you can source really high quality barrels from plenty of sources, including BCM/DD/Centurion/Noveske, in both 12.5" and 14.5" flavors, so if the 14.5" covers that area you want for compromise performance, go with that and drive on.
The only reason we're looking at you a bit funny on wanting a Recce type SBR upper is that you've already got a 14.5" unit (I'm assuming a lighter barrel), so how different do you want the recce one to be (or rather, how similar do you want this one to be). The same argument, if your existing 14.5" is a lighter rifle, why not set this one up to run exclusively as a high performance suppressed only setup (and run a brake on it) then set up your other 14.5" as the training/practice/unsupressed focused rifle, configure them identically, and take advantage of the fact that you have two very similar awesome optics. I've got the ghetto version of this for my go-to rifle pair (a 16" Recce with heavy barrel and 1-6x optic, then a 16" Lightweight with TR24RT or AP T-1 that is the training analog for both the recce and my dual stamp SBR in those two configurations).
Part of the difference for configurations I run is that the 1.93-2.01" height scope mounts frees up room under the optic for a DBAL, which makes the shorter setups more attractive. Since you've mentioned length and wanting to find the goldilocks setup, to be completely honest I've even been messing with the idea of running a 13.7" barrel as an SBR setup (with URX3 10.75"), but the honest answer is that it doesn't make a ton of sense.
The 14.5" is fairly easily justified for a TitleII lower owner wanting a do-all recce, but the 12.5" can still do a lot in that regard too, it's more of a case where the difference between a shorter than 3' long gun and longer than 3' long gun is unusually huge, especially when some of the densest handling part is dangling off the muzzle (in an inch and a half wide cylinder), so tucking that even even am measly 2" can really do a lot.
As far as handguard, if you're already happy running the Troy's Never run a troy. My quad rail weighs nearly the same, so no need for a tube., the KMR will fill that role just as well, being extremely light, with the BCM mini-VFG and some key-mod panels, you'll be more than adequately isolated thermally if you have a bunch of plastic around there - iirc the KAC cover is probably the best candidate for that. I've always felt that lighter longer guns handle like shorter ones, so little stuff like running a 3V Scout and KMR rail can make it an easier rifle to run - same idea with the offset KAC sights - that means you can run a much lighter (if you like that height over bore, the API super-light might be the best option) fixed scope mount without losing and effectiveness. Agreed. I am thinking that the M300U is a good idea.
Don't get Gunz started on the source of the BCM barrels, but right now you can source really high quality barrels from plenty of sources, including BCM/DD/Centurion/Noveske, in both 12.5" and 14.5" flavors, so if the 14.5" covers that area you want for compromise performance, go with that and drive on.
The only reason we're looking at you a bit funny on wanting a Recce type SBR upper is that you've already got a 14.5" unit (I'm assuming a lighter barrel), I don't. so how different do you want the recce one to be (or rather, how similar do you want this one to be). The same argument, if your existing 14.5" is a lighter rifle, why not set this one up to run exclusively as a high performance suppressed only setup (and run a brake on it) then set up your other 14.5" as the training/practice/unsupressed focused rifle, configure them identically, and take advantage of the fact that you have two very similar awesome optics. I've got the ghetto version of this for my go-to rifle pair (a 16" Recce with heavy barrel and 1-6x optic, then a 16" Lightweight with TR24RT or AP T-1 that is the training analog for both the recce and my dual stamp SBR in those two configurations).
I used to own a 14.5" but sold it. I really liked it. I have a 10.3" 5.56 and 300BLK and 16.1" 5.56. Picture was my friend at Unity Tactical's stuff, not mine. I just posted it for reference.
That chart just verifies what I've been saying - you only gain 100fps between a 12.5" and 14.5". You've already got an NFA lower. Why not pin a muzzle device on a 14.5" and throw it on a Title I lower and put the 12.5" on the SBR?
Again, no dog in this fight. Just trying to save you tons of money, money that I wish I had saved.
And you only gain ~180 fps from a 10.5 to 12.5. Only 75 fps from a 11.5 to 12.5.
If he has his 10.5 for close in stuff, and a 14.5 as a "recce", he has more options than just a 12.5 that does neither mission as well.
And you only gain ~180 fps from a 10.5 to 12.5. Only 75 fps from a 11.5 to 12.5.
If he has his 10.5 for close in stuff, and a 14.5 as a "recce", he has more options than just a 12.5 that does neither mission as well.
Browntip is stunningly effective from a 10.3 out to 300m. My reason is mainly blast and rail space. At this point predominantly railspace.
Browntip is stunningly effective from a 10.3 out to 300m. My reason is mainly blast and rail space. At this point predominantly railspace.
I know, but most people aren't using the 70gr TSX's though.
I know, but most people aren't using the 70gr TSX's though.
I understand. That is my go to load when not plinking or running drills though. 2800fps from a 14.5" barrel.
From everything I am seeing, the 14.5" with carbine system is the way I should go. The port size spec'ed by DD is 0.067". Slightly larger than mil-spec. Should barely shuffle along with an H2 buffer and new spring using Wolf and other junk for high-volume without being too overgassed at all with the M855 and Browntip.
Their midlength 14.5" has a 0.076" gas-port, which would likely require a carbine buffer.
More mass/More gas should = more reliable, to a point, and I think the 14.5" with 0.067" gas port and carbine system is best, based on the reliability tests Mike Pannone has conducted, etc. Speaking with someone from Daniel Defense who has shot their M4A1, and their 14.5" middy system, he says the difference is very minor, and with an H2 the M4A1 suppressed is similar to their suppressed middy with an H buffer. Both run fine with an H, though, he says.
I tend to agree with Mike Pannone. I had a Noveske 10.5" SBR, and with an H or H2 buffer and mil-spec spring, I got a lot of jams on the feed-ramps (sharp). I put an H3 and Sprinco Blue spring in, and the jams were MUCH less frequent, as the casings were bent like bannana's but jammed into the chamber anyway and fire-formed. (Noveske has since made things right!). So, I have seen first-hand that a slightly over-gassed gun running heavy spring/buffer is going to be more reliable when things aren't perfect.
Well, going to order in a day or two. Still leaning toward the carbine system. My only concern that anyone has voiced that bothers me is the claim that a 0.067" port on a 14.5" carbine will erode over time (5-10K rounds) and cause reliability issues before the throat is toast. Daniel Defense bevels their gas-ports and uses a good steel, hammer forged, so I am hoping that won't be a problem, and I have never heard of a Colt 6920 which uses a 16.1" barrel and 0.063" port eroding so bad as to cause an issue, so...
justin_247
05-08-14, 08:05
You're putting way too much thought into this...
Just as an FYI, DD opened up the gas port on their barrels precisely because of the issues that people were having who wanted to shoot Wolf/Tula/Brown Bear. KAC had to do the exact same thing with the SR15... I don't understand people who spend $1.5-2.5K on a rifle and another $2K on accessories only to shoot the crappiest ammo available. But, hey, who am I to tell people how dumb their financial decisions are?
My DD XV is from 2009, when they first began manufacturing rifles. And I can tell you, even though it is carbine gas, it simply does not like Wolf. Mine will short stroke about once every few dozen rounds. I've been meaning to swap out to a carbine buffer when I use crummy ammo, but I haven't shot crappy ammo out of it in awhile so I haven't felt the need to.
I don't know why you're putting in this much thought into a rifle that you're going to use to shoot Wolf ammo out of. You're not going to shoot to a high level of performance with it, regardless of whether or not you have a CHF or SS barrel, a free float or non-free float rail, or a Swarovski or a Bushnell scope.
Buy a Colt 6921 upper from Grant and be done with it.
justin_247
05-08-14, 08:07
Here's a link to help you along:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6921CK
That is a SMOKING deal, btw. A genuine Colt upper with a Colt BCG and charging handle, along with a flip-up BUIS? Absolutely smoking deal...
You're putting way too much thought into this...
Just as an FYI, DD opened up the gas port on their barrels precisely because of the issues that people were having who wanted to shoot Wolf/Tula/Brown Bear. KAC had to do the exact same thing with the SR15... I don't understand people who spend $1.5-2.5K on a rifle and another $2K on accessories only to shoot the crappiest ammo available. But, hey, who am I to tell people how dumb their financial decisions are?
I shoot around 5K rounds a year typically (this year has been light, sadly) with Viking Tactics and others. I have yet to shoot at a distance (past 200m) that Tula would be a disadvantage to ASYM, etc. at. Why is it dumb to spend $300 on ammo instead of $450 on ammo if the training result is the same?
My DD XV is from 2009, when they first began manufacturing rifles. And I can tell you, even though it is carbine gas, it simply does not like Wolf. Mine will short stroke about once every few dozen rounds. I've been meaning to swap out to a carbine buffer when I use crummy ammo, but I haven't shot crappy ammo out of it in awhile so I haven't felt the need to.
I don't know why you're putting in this much thought into a rifle that you're going to use to shoot Wolf ammo out of. You're not going to shoot to a high level of performance with it, regardless of whether or not you have a CHF or SS barrel, a free float or non-free float rail, or a Swarovski or a Bushnell scope.
Just because I plan on doing high-volume training with it doesn't mean I don't also want good performance when I shove 5.56 Browntip and the like down the pipe.
Buy a Colt 6921 upper from Grant and be done with it.
Smoking deal, but not what I'm after. Great deal, though! Amazing deal, really!!!
justin_247
05-08-14, 09:17
I shoot around 5K rounds a year typically (this year has been light, sadly) with Viking Tactics and others. I have yet to shoot at a distance (past 200m) that Tula would be a disadvantage to ASYM, etc. at. Why is it dumb to spend $300 on ammo instead of $450 on ammo if the training result is the same?
The issue isn't the volume of ammo--the issue is the amount of Wolf being shot relative to the total volume being shot. If you shoot 4,500 rounds of Wolf for every 500 rounds of M193 or Mk262, it makes no sense to build a high cost rifle to shoot only that 500 rounds... the rifle should be built around the primary type of ammo being shot through it.
With this in mind, a plain jane 4150 chrome-lined 1/7 twist carbine barrel paired up with a Colt recoil spring and a carbine or H-buffer will be more than sufficient for the task at hand.
As far as I am concerned, a rifle built primarily for Wolf should be a relatively inexpensive beater gun.
To do otherwise is akin to buying a Lamborghini and only putting premium gas in the tank once or twice a year.
The issue isn't the volume of ammo--the issue is the amount of Wolf being shot relative to the total volume being shot. If you shoot 4,500 rounds of Wolf for every 500 rounds of M193 or Mk262, it makes no sense to build a high cost rifle to shoot only that 500 rounds... the rifle should be built around the primary type of ammo being shot through it.
With this in mind, a plain jane 4150 chrome-lined 1/7 twist carbine barrel paired up with a Colt recoil spring and a carbine or H-buffer will be more than sufficient for the task at hand.
As far as I am concerned, a rifle built primarily for Wolf should be a relatively inexpensive beater gun.
To do otherwise is akin to buying a Lamborghini and only putting premium gas in the tank once or twice a year.
Semantics aside, I'd rather build 1 rifle instead of two. I didn't see much of a downside to a 14.5/Carbine system, so that's what I went with.
justin_247
05-08-14, 09:31
Semantics aside, I'd rather build 1 rifle instead of two. I didn't see much of a downside to a 14.5/Carbine system, so that's what I went with.
I agree. What brand/model did you choose?
I agree. What brand/model did you choose?
Daniel Defense. My lower is DD, so why not the upper, basically.
M4A1 clone except non-pinned and DDM4 rail vs. the RIS
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/carbine-length/daniel-defense-m4a1.html
This is interesting when also reading the other 14.5 thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151993-Replicating-Knights-14-5-Carbine
This is interesting when also reading the other 14.5 thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151993-Replicating-Knights-14-5-Carbine
SR16 is a dream to shoot from what I hear, I just wanted something with all standardized parts for the most part. Nothing against the KAC, as I contemplated one heavily.
justin_247
05-08-14, 13:08
Daniel Defense. My lower is DD, so why not the upper, basically.
M4A1 clone except non-pinned and DDM4 rail vs. the RIS
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/carbine-length/daniel-defense-m4a1.html
Awesome. That setup, with the DDM4 rail instead of the RIS II, is identical to mine.
Awesome. That setup, with the DDM4 rail instead of the RIS II, is identical to mine.
Yep, lower will have Super-V trigger, K2 grip, SOPMOD stock, and upper will wear LaRue index clips, Surefire SOCOM FH to mount my Mini, Magpul MBUS Pro (I heard they fixed them), and a K16i/VCOG (have not decided). I have everything but the optic/Mini (pending) at this point, and I am waiting to fondle them to buy that.
Also holding out on the light to see if Surefire will release a 300 lumen M300 now that the E1D is out with 5/300 output (like the EB1, only 100 lumens more, wonder if they weaponize it and make a rolling change in the M300 line...)
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