View Full Version : Magpul M-LOK
http://magpul.commercev3.com/downloads/M-LOK_Release_FAQs.pdf
Reminds me of this: http://xkcd.com/927/
Seriously, Magpul... You couldn't just get on KeyMod huh? :\ They do have a point about plastic parts not being ideal with keymod... And as a plastics mfg they make a case, but I guess the more I see weapons trending lightweight, the less I'm seeing modular parts use plastic. Obviously magpul is hoping to reverse this trend.
This also means a new Magpul line-up is coming.
I swear, when I saw that on my facebook I thought it was a post from April 1st that finally made it to my wall.
It looks like a cross between a Geiselle and a Keymod.
I swear, when I saw that on my facebook I thought it was a post from April 1st that finally made it to my wall.
Of what year? :sarcastic:
Maybe a good upgrade from MOE if it were backward compatible but I just don't get it.
http://magpul.commercev3.com/downloads/M-LOK_Release_FAQs.pdf
Reminds me of this: http://xkcd.com/927/
Seriously, Magpul... You couldn't just get on KeyMod huh? :\ They do have a point about plastic parts not being ideal with keymod... And as a plastics mfg they make a case, but I guess the more I see weapons trending lightweight, the less I'm seeing modular parts use plastic. Obviously magpul is hoping to reverse this trend.
This also means a new Magpul line-up is coming.
I think I like this better than Keymod.
Maybe a good upgrade from MOE if it were backward compatible but I just don't get it.
Kind of my thoughts as well. If it were backwards compatible I would say it would be an easier way to mount stuff without having to remove the handguard, and if Magpul was to come out with a hard mounted system that was freefloated it would have been pretty much a no brainer. Maybe it is a sigh that they are working on something that would need the ease of mounting and removing rails and hardware because the rail/handguard would not be as easy as your standard MOE handguard to remove?
They do have a lug system to prevent impacts from sliding things on the handguard.
Maybe a good upgrade from MOE if it were backward compatible but I just don't get it.
In the pdf it states that it is backwards compatible.
yeah. With the plate adapter right?
In the pdf it states that it is backwards compatible.
Looking at the PDF in the FAQs section it say it will not fit the old standard MOE slots without modification. Does say that MOE parts will work the M-lok with adapter plate.
It looks like a cross between a Geiselle and a Keymod.
Or they took a key mod Geiselle and machined open more for their system.
I have to agree with the sentiment of just getting on the keymod bandwagon.
Maybe a good upgrade from MOE if it were backward compatible but I just don't get it.
Their MOE to MLOK drawing is retarded showing MOE in imperial and MLOK in metric... But they are definitely incompatible.
Which is why I saw all new Magpul furniture is coming. It just may be the same thing with updated "negative space" for the MLOK, or it could be actually-new parts. The MOE stuff is heavy (thus the reason everyone is trending metal + keymod, but whatever) and could use a re-design.
Although on Magpul's side this is interesting because it's ALL new furniture AND accessories they'll need to be on top of, this is actually a big deal. Huge investment.
Biggest advantages of mlok from the brochure:
Can mount accessories backwards and forwards without modification
Works on polymer handguards
Easier and cheaper machining
Doesn't look like warehouse shelving
I'm kinda thinking there is a specific reason they would rather compete with than participate in the KeyMod space?
Doing a very brief glance at the technical drawings and a quick math calculation, theoretically you could mount an MLok accessory in a keymod slot...
I wonder if this was intentional.
I'm kinda thinking there is a specific reason they would rather compete with than participate in the KeyMod space?
Should be interesting.
I'm kinda thinking there is a specific reason they would rather compete with than participate in the KeyMod space?
They explain it in their FAQ. Back side features like the keymod's taper would be expensive to injection mold, and my guess is they can't get the strength they would need while keeping weight down in plastic.
It's a fair implementation... IF your goal is to make very high margin plastic rails.... My curiosity is that given the choice, who wants heavier plastic rails? People searching for the cheaper option mostly. Which will of course work well for them - It's just that imo this is a MASSIVE investment on their part.
That makes sense. The price on the metal handguard will be VERY interesting.
Doing a very brief glance at the technical drawings and a quick math calculation, theoretically you could mount an MLok accessory in a keymod slot...
I wonder if this was intentional.
Yea... It looks to me like the center to center is 20mm on page 5 of the PDF. It doesn't say it's 20mm exactly, they just kind of imply it.
MLOK at 20mm is .787
Keymod is .788 center to center
But, I'm not seeing any mating taper on their T-Nut. They do say it's "cams" but that's in sheer to the part...
My guess.... Is that Magpul not being outright dummies... Is going to offer two versions of the nut and keep the parts the same. It does sort of seem that you might be able to put a keymod nut on a MLOK part... But... They are showing a flat mating section with large rounded corners where KM has a full radius mating face. Perhaps they drew it up so that the top and bottom radii match the tangent of the KM sections...???? It does seem unlikely to make the part 1/3rd of a human hair different in center to center and NOT make them compatible by using a different nut.
Add to that, they show an MOE adapter... But my guess is that's going to get old quick so it seems they just doubled SKUs on all their MOE parts and will likely make MLOK versions.
In the pdf it states that it is backwards compatible.
I meant if newer accessories could be used on old hand guards.
I am agreeing with Noodles here on just about every point.
Though, I am sure a corp as large as Magpul is that this must have been a strategic play. I highly doubt their realization and feasibility team would miss something this large.
MLOK at 20mm is .787
Keymod is .788 center to center
That might cover the mounting holes but that doesn't cover the anti-recoil lug compatibility between the two.
That might cover the mounting holes but that doesn't cover the anti-recoil lug compatibility between the two.
Keep reading what I wrote.
It appears that you MIGHT be able to use MLOK panels/accessories IF you remove the MLOK nut put a KeyMod nut on it instead. The MLOK nut is definitely in no way compatible with Keymod. It's 7mm for one thing, and the KM small hole is 5.9mm. The MLOK nut wouldn't fit at all.
It's the tangency contact that I'm more interested in than the center to center spacing.
The keymod shares dimensions with some aspects of 1913. I'm sure the MLOK does as well. So it could just be happenstance that since they were both designed from the same source, they could be similar in some dimensions and still be entirely incompatible.
Magpul officially displays this in 3 days or so. Anyone going to NRA show can just ask them.
http://geissele.com/m-lok-technology
Geissele is in on it.
I meant if newer accessories could be used on old hand guards.
Pretty sure that's a No. MOE accessories on MLOK rails with the use of adapter plate, but not the other way around
Q: I have a hand guard with the original MOE slots. Can I use the new M-LOK
accessories on it?
A: No, M-LOK accessories will not fit into the MOE slots without modification. MOE
accessories, however, will work on an M-LOK slot with a small adapter plate.
http://geissele.com/m-lok-technology
Geissele is in on it.
I'll give it this, it is less machining and does work in plastics. Should be interesting.
Or they took a key mod Geiselle and machined open more for their system.
I'm not Bill G. but that rail can't be modified/built from any current Geissele SMR that I've seen. The spacing is off. It looks like a custom one built for Magpul by Geissele.
It's too bad the ends need to be square for the Magpul mod. The best part about the MKI—and Bill's original intent—was to keep the sections round so they feel good in the hand.
I'm not Bill G. but that rail can't be modified/built from any current Geissele SMR that I've seen. The spacing is off. It looks like a custom one built for Magpul by Geissele.
It's too bad the ends need to be square for the Magpul mod. The best part about the MKI—and Bill's original intent—was to keep the sections round so they feel good in the hand.
See a couple posts up.
DreadPirateMoyer
04-22-14, 15:42
Personally, I think this actually looks better than keymod. It looks to have more negative space, it's easier to manufacture, it's non-directional (huge upgrade to keymod, imo), and looks like it could have more variability in mounting locations if recoil lugs were foregone for certain applications.
It's so simple it's stupid. It's literally a rectangle with chamfered corners. But it's awesome, and I love it.
It's going to come down to OUNCES and Dollars... that's my guess.
Either mounting system is probably more than adequate.... so in my amature opinion its money and weight.... Keymod will be tough to beat on either.
It's too bad the ends need to be square for the Magpul mod. The best part about the MKI—and Bill's original intent—was to keep the sections round so they feel good in the hand.
Keymod needs (iirc) a .600" flat... I'm not sure I can see any reason that Magpul's version should need more than that. Although, my guess is you won't see a good looking Magpul MLOK aluminum rail, until one is extruded specifically for it and not adapted from an existing extrusion, guess considering how the T-nut works and where you and get that material to cam on to.
DreadPirateMoyer
04-22-14, 15:52
It's going to come down to OUNCES and Dollars... that's my guess.
Either mounting system is probably more than adequate.... so in my amature opinion its money and weight.... Keymod will be tough to beat on either.
Keymod being first to market will certainly make it harder for MLOK to gain traction. That said, on your points, I do think MLOK looks to be theoretically lighter due to the even greater amount of negative space. Bigger holes, less total material between holes (since the holes are longer, less total posts are needed between the holes), etc.
I could be wrong, but that's the way it looks from my engineering experience. Can you imagine a KMR-style rail with MLOK? It would be almost nothing but air (and would probably not be that strong; I'll leave that to the designers to figure out).
ETA: Keymod's posts are smaller than MLOK's, so while there may be more of them, they'll each weigh less. That may be enough to make the weights competitive. Interested to see how this plays out. Someone with more time than me could probably figure out a theoretical weight difference by simply measuring off and comparing the proportional areas of the materials of the two systems, but I'm way too lazy to do that myself.
It's going to come down to OUNCES and Dollars... that's my guess.
Either mounting system is probably more than adequate.... so in my amature opinion its money and weight.... Keymod will be tough to beat on either.
Ding ding ding.
Keymod being first to market will certainly make it harder for MLOK to gain traction. That said, on your points, I do think MLOK looks to be theoretically lighter due to the even greater amount of negative space. Bigger holes, less total material between holes (since the holes are longer, less total posts are needed between the holes), etc.
I could be wrong, but that's the way it looks from my engineering experience. Can you imagine a KMR-style rail with MLOK? It would be almost nothing but air (and would probably not be that strong; I'll leave that to the designers to figure out).
Well with Magpul pushing the marketing i'm sure they will have success.
So any idea what the MK6 and MK7 are?
I've done the Geissele rails. They are awesome... but not light.
Freedoooom
04-22-14, 15:55
A mod should edit the OP, entire thread is going to be filled with "why not key mod," even though its answered directly in the PDF.
So here comes Magpul in the number 2 spot with a non-pic "standard". All this reminds me, anyone ever heard anything else on GearSectors take on a universal attachment "standard"?
Well with Magpul pushing the marketing i'm sure they will have success.
So any idea what the MK6 and MK7 are?
Quad rail and something National Match I believe.
Tzintzuntzan
04-22-14, 15:59
A mod should edit the OP, entire thread is going to be filled with "why not key mod," even though its answered directly in the PDF.
You know the OP can edit the title right?
Tzintzuntzan
04-22-14, 16:01
This is an interesting development, especially considering that Magpul has announced their own Aug mags.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/22/magpul-pmag-aus-gen-m3-mags-steyr-aug/
Failure2Stop
04-22-14, 16:02
Yea... It looks to me like the center to center is 20mm on page 5 of the PDF. It doesn't say it's 20mm exactly, they just kind of imply it.
It is going to have to be in order to be a good host for 1913 rail sections, as you need to place the mounting hole between the 1913 ribs.
Keymod needs (iirc) a .600" flat... I'm not sure I can see any reason that Magpul's version should need more than that. Although, my guess is you won't see a good looking Magpul MLOK aluminum rail, until one is extruded specifically for it and not adapted from an existing extrusion, guess considering how the T-nut works and where you and get that material to cam on to.
Almost any extrusion that works for Keymod will work for M-LOK, simply by cutting M-LOK slots instead of the keymod holes. The flat space and backside requirements are almost identical.
Freedoooom
04-22-14, 16:04
It's going to come down to OUNCES and Dollars... that's my guess.
Either mounting system is probably more than adequate.... so in my amature opinion its money and weight.... Keymod will be tough to beat on either.
The M-LOK cut out is larger, so it will win there in just a plain rail weight. Then add the fact they will be able to use polymer accessories, another win in weight.
Money? I'm pretty sure as long as Geissele isn't the only one thats going to do it, the pricing will be the same as far as rails go and of course the polymer accessories will be a lot cheaper. Key Mod was promised, there would be direct mounting accessories. Instead there is very few and they very expensive, so people just buy a rail(also expensive) and mount a polymer accessory.
The writing is on the wall.
I find it to be more aesthetically pleasing than Keymod, but that isn't what I make my primary reason for purchase.
The M-LOK cut out is larger, so it will win there in just a plain rail weight. Then add the fact they will be able to use polymer accessories, another win in weight.
I'm confused why you think there aren't polymer accessories for KeyMod.
Key Mod was promised, there would be direct mounting accessories. Instead there is very few and they very expensive, so people just buy a rail(also expensive) and mount a polymer accessory.
What keymod direct mount accessories do you want that don't currently exist or at least aren't just about to exist (bcm's vfg)?
I guess a direct mount bipod would be neat. But that's all I can think of that I'd want.
VERY interesting development, esp with Mapgul's influence in the market place, and their adaptability with previous accessories. Looks like use of new system with old MOE may not happen, but use of the millions of Magpul accessories already out there is possible. Add in the no-fee licensing, and Magpul's relationship with other manufacturers and we will see this widespread soon. Magoul makes good stuff, but where they really excel is marketing!
Midwest Industries
04-22-14, 16:27
We have some stuff on the drawing boards that I think you guys may like. ;)
Troy
MI
Biggest advantages of mlok from the brochure:
Can mount accessories backwards and forwards without modification
why is this important?
Freedoooom
04-22-14, 16:45
I'm confused why you think there aren't polymer accessories for KeyMod.
Rail panels sure I guess.
The angled grip is the Noveske rail panel, which is a pain to install. Then there is the IWC $35 one, so the price of of a AFG.
What keymod direct mount accessories do you want that don't currently exist or at least aren't just about to exist (bcm's vfg)?
I guess a direct mount bipod would be neat. But that's all I can think of that I'd want.
$45 bcm VFG or $18 Magpul MVG... Hmmm how do I decide...
why is this important?
Because 'Murrica.
Some accessories like 45° offsets don't work on both sides of a keymod rail. Luckily, many find a way around this problem, but they usually increase complexity.
Almost any extrusion that works for Keymod will work for M-LOK, simply by cutting M-LOK slots instead of the keymod holes. The flat space and backside requirements are almost identical.
So in theory a machinist could mill out a keymod slot into a M-LOK?
Because 'Murrica.
Some accessories like 45° offsets don't work on both sides of a keymod rail. Luckily, many find a way around this problem, but they usually increase complexity.
good to know.
So in theory a machinist could mill out a keymod slot into a M-LOK?
or any slot on any handguard? here's to hoping.
Almost any extrusion that works for Keymod will work for M-LOK, simply by cutting M-LOK slots instead of the keymod holes. The flat space and backside requirements are almost identical.
Yea, without seeing specs I was figuring the slot would need to be deeper, and that's why the G rail looked sharp on the edges, because it was "pushed" outwards. But if the thickness is similar to .060 or whatever KM is then that's an intersting development as BCM, Noveske, whoever makes a KM rail that wanted to could also release a MLOK version.
However, I wouldn't exactly give you guys the win right away. Slight uphill battle from where you're at currently.
Any comment as to whether the rounded edges on the MLOK might be tangent with the round on the Keymod? That is, by using a KM nut, could a M-LOK accessory be used in a KM rail?
So in theory a machinist could mill out a keymod slot into a M-LOK?
The large hole in KeyMod is too wide to just machine new M-LOK slots in a finished KeyMod rail, unfortunately. We initially looked at making it a compatible system, but there were too many compromises. It does mean that manufacturers may not have to change their extrusions if they are currently making KeyMod rails.
It may also be possible to machine other slots to meet the M-LOK slot specs, but it wasn't necessarily a design threshold. In fact, our first tests on a metal mounting surface were on re-machined rails from existing manufacturers, and our first polymer test samples were re-machined MOE handguards.
We would have been perfectly happy to adopt another standard...we certainly would have rather used the design and engineering time to work on actual physical products. We set out to test everything out there, and talked to manufacturers of metal rails as well as using our own experience in polymer. After the dust cleared from shaker table time with heat cycles, live fire, pull out testing, drop tests, etc., etc., we ended up with M-LOK.
We thought about this one for a while, as we didn't want to be seen as muddying the marketplace "just because", but the results from our testing, and the response from our initial contacts with metal rail manufacturers about the ease with which M-LOK is machined made the case for release.
Last note...the spacing of 20mm is indeed to be completely compatible with picatinny spacing.
MiamiCracker
04-22-14, 18:14
I have been thinking for a while that Magpul should come out with their own FF rail, especially with tho new mounting system.
Could the new Lancer on the cover of Recoil (http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/recoil_12_350x424.jpg)magazine have a carbon fiber M-Lok rail?
Freedoooom
04-22-14, 21:31
Could the new Lancer on the cover of Recoil (http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/recoil_12_350x424.jpg)magazine have a carbon fiber M-Lok rail?
No. That's a normal LCH-5.
Good for Magpul, just when you think they are out of the loop they re-invent it. http://soldiersystems.net/2014/04/22/magpul-launches-m-lok-attachment-system-nra-annual-meeting/
This might work if BCM will adopt it, or others can make a Mg alloy to compete with the KMR.
I was initially disappointed when I got the newsletter announcing the new M-Lok system. Based off their newsletter alone it seemed like solely an evolution for MOE mounting, then I saw the announcement from Geissele previewing the new MK8 M-Lok.
Although I'm still disappointed with what looks like the initial release, picatinny rails mounted to a new rail, I think the release of direct mount M-Lok products must be on the horizon, or at least the drawing board. Seeing as how this is the main focus from the majority of keymod users, direct mount attachments that is, it seems like this should be one of the first things Magpul should be focused on releasing.
Personally I hate the look of their new M-Lok rail sections, they may attach in a new revolutionary method, bu they look too bulky to be of any minimalist use other than perhaps for a flashlight mount. I would like to see Magpul direct mount M-Lok VFG's, AFG's, handstops, and flashlight mounts. That being said, the MK8 rail is calling my name and I look forward to the evolution and development of this system.
The key mod always looked like a half solution to me... the rail portion was good, but the mount portion wasn't ready for prime time. I think Magpul is headed for success with this, independent of any other individual players. They will provide the affordable mounts to make the rail sell.
I was there when the Rail Wars began! :D
Anyways, I'm interested to see which way this goes. I've already got a KMR though.
Sent from my SCH-I500
Although I'm still disappointed with what looks like the initial release, picatinny rails mounted to a new rail, I think the release of direct mount M-Lok products must be on the horizon, or at least the drawing board. Seeing as how this is the main focus from the majority of keymod users, direct mount attachments that is, it seems like this should be one of the first things Magpul should be focused on releasing.
Personally I hate the look of their new M-Lok rail sections, they may attach in a new revolutionary method, bu they look too bulky to be of any minimalist use other than perhaps for a flashlight mount. I would like to see Magpul direct mount M-Lok VFG's, AFG's, handstops, and flashlight mounts.
There's nothing large about the rail segments compared to any other pic rail segment, and in fact they are pocketed out quite a bit to be rather light.
That being said, the whole point of the system was to direct mount accessories without the rails, as you could do with MOE accessories on MOE hand guards since 2007. We will have a full complement of accessories, that are already well underway, out by Fall 2014. Hand stop, two light mounts, vert grip, updated AFG, sling mounts, bipod mount, rail covers, etc. In the meantime, most MOE accessories will direct mount with a small adapter plate that will be available shortly.
Thank God I can hold a railed handguard without covers...
Averageman
04-23-14, 08:23
Now if there was a way to make a flashlight that could mount and unmount with one hand in the field using this system, that would be good.
The M-LOK cut out is larger, so it will win there in just a plain rail weight. Then add the fact they will be able to use polymer accessories, another win in weight.
Huh? You can't cut enought material out of a Geissele to match the KMR and still have structural integrity.
Money? I'm pretty sure as long as Geissele isn't the only one thats going to do it, the pricing will be the same as far as rails go and of course the polymer accessories will be a lot cheaper.
I'm talking specifically about the handguard cost. I honestly would NOT have purchase a KMR out of pocket had it cost more than $300. No handguard is worth that. I never even bought my previous FAVORITE hand guard (DD RIS), just because there is nothing worth over $300-400 that is hand guard.
Key Mod was promised, there would be direct mounting accessories. Instead there is very few and they very expensive, so people just buy a rail(also expensive) and mount a polymer accessory.
The one I think I like is the Noveske light mount. It's $50 which is cheaper than my beloved GearSector mounts. Polymer accessories, other than rail covers, are of no desire to me.
The writing is on the wall.
Hey... the only sticker on my truck is Magpul's logo. I'm a fan of many of their products... as well as the Geissele rails. But unless they bring it cheap, they'll be battling a pretty good product.
Thank God I can hold a railed handguard without covers...
What do you mean?
There's nothing large about the rail segments compared to any other pic rail segment, and in fact they are pocketed out quite a bit to be rather light.
That being said, the whole point of the system was to direct mount accessories without the rails, as you could do with MOE accessories on MOE hand guards since 2007. We will have a full complement of accessories, that are already well underway, out by Fall 2014. Hand stop, two light mounts, vert grip, updated AFG, sling mounts, bipod mount, rail covers, etc. In the meantime, most MOE accessories will direct mount with a small adapter plate that will be available shortly.
That's great to hear and thanks for the response, I've always been a huge fan of Magpul and always will be. I'm looking forward to the new products you've mentioned.
Glad I have yet to start dropping $ on KM. I want to handle and compare both before I make a decision one way or the other...
jerrysimons
04-23-14, 11:47
I don't get it, are BCMs polymer rail sections substandard because they are keymod? I am all for competition but was really hoping Magpul would come out with keymod stuff.
The biggest potential for success of M-lok is Magpul's massive manufacturing capacity to pump out affordable accessories.
Glad I have yet to start dropping $ on KM.
I doubt anyone with a KMR would say those words. ;)
I want to handle and compare both before I make a decision one way or the other...
That makes sense. I really doubt there's a downside to buying either. Not like anyone will be left without a way to attach his favorite gear one way or another.
I don't get it, are BCMs polymer rail sections substandard because they are keymod?
I don't think so. I'd probably spring for a metal rail section if I had a light that really hung out a ways.... just to make sure a heavy knock wouldn't snap it off....
steyrman13
04-23-14, 11:50
nvrmind already posted, just didn't see it above. I like the mk4 by Geissele, just wish you could still mount accessories to it.....now you can!
PatrioticDisorder
04-23-14, 11:55
The question is who is going to come out with a rail compatible that will compete with the KMR?... Not to mention all the other companies heavily invested in Keymod including KAC. I also read on TOS where Manticore Arms essentially said the M-Lok looks almost identical to their ARC Lok recently released, will there be a court battle over the M-Loo/ARC-Lok? I love my Pmags but IMO this is a day late and a dollar short.
I have a KMR on one build and another KMR on the way that I might return depending on the future M-LOK offerings. I think I'm suffering from "standards fatigue" since every company seems to be pushing their own idea of what the standard should be. I wish there was a IEEE of firearm tech where major manufacturers cooperated to develop one standard.
I wish there was a IEEE of firearm tech where major manufacturers cooperated to develop one standard.
Then there'd be no intrnut forum drama!
I also read on TOS where Manticore Arms essentially said the M-Lok looks almost identical to their ARC Lok recently released, will there be a court battle over the M-Loo/ARC-Lok? I love my Pmags but IMO this is a day late and a dollar short.
I just looked up the ARC Lok and it does kind of share some similarities but I don't' think they are the close to being the same thing. It looks like the ARC Lok just has a tab that rotates while the M Lok has a nut that locks into place in the cut out of the rail and has the tab on the back side. Plus, this being put out by Magpul, I am sure they did their due diligence on the whole thing before committing to it.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Dawg180/ARCLOK1.jpg (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/Dawg180/media/ARCLOK1.jpg.html)
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Dawg180/ARCLOK2.jpg (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/Dawg180/media/ARCLOK2.jpg.html)
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p296/Dawg180/ARCLOK3.jpg (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/Dawg180/media/ARCLOK3.jpg.html)
It seems like the M Lok has a lot potential.
Some of the reasons why I see M Lok doing well in the market.
The ease of machining. You can knock out the rectangle with single, off the shelf tool, and then chamfer/radius the edge, and you're done. Plus it can be machined into current extruded rails made for KeyMod. If picatinny rail extrusions can be milled down to work with it, that will open up a lot more options very quickly.
Less machine time, the cheaper it will be.
The QA/QC process looks like it will be easier to perform.
It will be a well supported mounting option because Magpul will be coming out with direct mount accessories, RVG, AVG, ect.
Like the keymod, the design is open for anyone to use, and again I think the manufacturing process will be easier.
It is possible that it could take a while to catch on, and for other companies to invest/committing to make accessories. But, with magpul leading the way, it could happen much faster than what we have seen with keymod. The key for this to catch on, is accessories, if Magpul takes to long to come out with direct mount parts, it could flop. We have seen a lot of companies making keymod rails, but fewer making accessories for it. Rails will be plentiful, but they may not be as lightweight as the market wants.
It will probably be a while until someone else can make a lightweight M Lok rail that can compete with the BCM KMR, unless BCM makes it. Really the big exciting thing about the KMR, in my opinion, is weight and that is because of the using keymod system instead of picatinny. Substitute the keymod with the M Lok and the weight difference is probably negligible.
It seems like the M Lok has a lot potential.
Some of the reasons why I see M Lok doing well in the market.
The ease of machining. You can knock out the rectangle with single, off the shelf tool, and then chamfer/radius the edge, and you're done. Plus it can be machined into current extruded rails made for KeyMod. If picatinny rail extrusions can be milled down to work with it, that will open up a lot more options very quickly.
Less machine time, the cheaper it will be.
The QA/QC process looks like it will be easier to perform.
It will be a well supported mounting option because Magpul will be coming out with direct mount accessories, RVG, AVG, ect.
Like the keymod, the design is open for anyone to use, and again I think the manufacturing process will be easier.
It is possible that it could take a while to catch on, and for other companies to invest/committing to make accessories. But, with magpul leading the way, it could happen much faster than what we have seen with keymod. The key for this to catch on, is accessories, if Magpul takes to long to come out with direct mount parts, it could flop. We have seen a lot of companies making keymod rails, but fewer making accessories for it. Rails will be plentiful, but they may not be as lightweight as the market wants.
It will probably be a while until someone else can make a lightweight M Lok rail that can compete with the BCM KMR, unless BCM makes it. Really the big exciting thing about the KMR, in my opinion, is weight and that is because of the using keymod system instead of picatinny. Substitute the keymod with the M Lok and the weight difference is probably negligible.
The kmr is so light because of the magnesium alloy they use, not just because its keymod.
The kmr is so light because of the magnesium alloy they use, not just because its keymod.
The alloy does help keep the weight down, but I think the keymod is the biggest contributor to the weight savings. A rail using the keymod system can be a minimum of 0.080" thick per the print, I don't know what the KMR wall thickness is. If the KMR used a direct thead system like the CMR, it would have to be thicker to accommodate necessary thread engagement and heavier. If the KMR had four picatinny rails it too would be heavier due to the extra material. I could be completely wrong, but that is how I see it.
ScatmanCrothers
04-23-14, 14:26
I don't get it, are BCMs polymer rail sections substandard because they are keymod? I am all for competition but was really hoping Magpul would come out with keymod stuff.
The biggest potential for success of M-lok is Magpul's massive manufacturing capacity to pump out affordable accessories.
I'm glad they aren't just following the masses and putting out keymod because everyone else is. Keymod systems and accessories are on the verge of an almost guaranteed saturated keymod market within a year to date. If I was Magpul I wouldn't want to go that route either just to contend for a small percentage of a non-standardized market. Instead it looks like they're creating/adopting a system based on similar ideals that looks to offer the potential for a few advantages over keymod. Like you mentioned, their manufacturing capabilities focused on a new system could mean a homerun for them if it is an effective system. The price point will be key here and I have no doubt it'll be very competitive based on who we are talking about here. Looking forward to watching this pan out. Of course buyers of the previous latest and greatest are sure to have bunched panties over this though so hopefully this thread can stay on track with updates.
The alloy does help keep the weight down, but I think the keymod is the biggest contributor to the weight savings. A rail using the keymod system can be a minimum of 0.080" thick per the print, I don't know what the KMR wall thickness is. If the KMR used a direct thead system like the CMR, it would have to be thicker to accommodate necessary thread engagement and heavier. If the KMR had four picatinny rails it too would be heavier due to the extra material. I could be completely wrong, but that is how I see it.
Sorry I meant the kmr is so light even in relation to other keymod rails because of the alloy.
Sorry I meant the kmr is so light even in relation to other keymod rails because of the alloy.
Gotcha. Yeah, the alloy does make a big difference when comparing it to other kemod rails. Such as the KMR 13" is 7.7 oz while the NSR 13.5 is 11.0 oz.
I am curious to hear more (objectively) regarding the strength of the M-Lok system vs that of Keymod; I have read the release and the FAQ's, and it appears that Keymod didn't satisfy MagPul in regards to the strength of polymer/plastic attachments.
If that is indeed the case, it is almost entirely a non-issue for me, I vastly prefer metal attachments for what little I bolt to my handguard.
I'm glad they aren't just following the masses and putting out keymod because everyone else is. Keymod systems and accessories are on the verge of an almost guaranteed saturated keymod market within a year to date. If I was Magpul I wouldn't want to go that route either just to contend for a small percentage of a non-standardized market. Instead it looks like they're creating/adopting a system based on similar ideals that looks to offer the potential for a few advantages over keymod. Like you mentioned, their manufacturing capabilities focused on a new system could mean a homerun for them if it is an effective system. The price point will be key here and I have no doubt it'll be very competitive based on who we are talking about here. Looking forward to watching this pan out. Of course buyers of the previous latest and greatest are sure to have bunched panties over this though so hopefully this thread can stay on track with updates.
Everyone and their grandmother knows who Magpul is. If Magpul had decided to go with the keymod, they would have done very well, especially with their MOE line up.
I am curious to hear more (objectively) regarding the strength of the M-Lok system vs that of Keymod; I have read the release and the FAQ's, and it appears that Keymod didn't satisfy MagPul in regards to the strength of polymer/plastic attachments.
If that is indeed the case, it is almost entirely a non-issue for me, I vastly prefer metal attachments for what little I bolt to my handguard.
It says in the FAQ that the keymod undercut would be very difficult to make for the injection process (handguards) and a custom made tool is needed for CNC. Both of those would be costly. Also if attached to a plastic handguard, over time the handguard would deform and and allow the keymod attachment to creep.
I am curious to hear more (objectively) regarding the strength of the M-Lok system vs that of Keymod; I have read the release and the FAQ's, and it appears that Keymod didn't satisfy MagPul in regards to the strength of polymer/plastic attachments.
If that is indeed the case, it is almost entirely a non-issue for me, I vastly prefer metal attachments for what little I bolt to my handguard.
What do you mean? On the Keymod both the hardware and rail are all metal. If the actual piece of gear is plastic, then that really is an issue with the gear, not the attachment.
Magpul just responded on TOS on exactly what the problem with keymod and their polymer is.
"As stated before the KeyMod's conical head bolts were designed for metal and are not a viable solution for mounting accessories on polymer handguards such as the MOE series. On plastic materials, the conical mating surfaces of KeyMod will either promote cracking or loosening due to creep and deformation of the polymer material. So using KeyMod on MOE series handguards was not an option.
We would have been perfectly happy to adopt another standard...we certainly would have rather used the design and engineering time to work on actual physical products. We set out to test everything out there, and talked to manufacturers of metal rails as well as using our own experience in polymer. After the dust cleared from shaker table time with heat cycles, live fire, pull out testing, drop tests, etc., etc., we ended up with M-LOK.
We thought about this one for a while, as we didn't want to be seen as muddying the marketplace "just because", but the results from our testing, and the response from our initial contacts with metal rail manufacturers about the ease with which M-LOK is machined made the case for release." - Magpul
So M-LOK was just made to keep polymer accessories in mind? err, seems like a lot of research and work for that niche in the market. But they know what they're doing so I am sure it will be a success for them.
OK, another standard. This is going to get ugly. I don't want plastic attachments either, but the thing that bugs me is the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray type issue that confuses the market and pisses people off when they find out that their rail cannot accept the newest direct attach kit because a vendor only supports one or the other.
I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens. I'll stick with keymod until there is a compelling reason to change because I don't see anything compelling right now.
OK, another standard. This is going to get ugly. I don't want plastic attachments either, but the thing that bugs me is the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray type issue that confuses the market and pisses people off when they find out that their rail cannot accept the newest direct attach kit because a vendor only supports one or the other.
I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens. I'll stick with keymod until there is a compelling reason to change because I don't see anything compelling right now.
All the manufacturers that jumped on the keymod bandwagon are also probably rolling their eyes as well.
OK, another standard. This is going to get ugly. I don't want plastic attachments either, but the thing that bugs me is the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray type issue that confuses the market and pisses people off when they find out that their rail cannot accept the newest direct attach kit because a vendor only supports one or the other.
I guess it'll be interesting to see what happens. I'll stick with keymod until there is a compelling reason to change because I don't see anything compelling right now.
MOE handguards dont directly accept picatiny accessories and they have not had a hard time selling their product. And I dont think anyone was confused about the support for the MOE line either.
I for one am interested. I dont need a rail, keymod or other, to mount a light and vfg. So for me a MOE handguard works and is affordable, and if they can improve it all the better.
Not to say there are no advantages to a rail (i.e. free floated barrel) but its up to the individual to compare these with the added cost. Its kind of hard to compare a $40 handguard vs a $300. A better comparison would me Magpuls offering vs the B5 polymer keymod handguard. And if what Magpul says is true, the B5 might have issues in the long run.
PatrioticDisorder
04-23-14, 16:22
The alloy does help keep the weight down, but I think the keymod is the biggest contributor to the weight savings.
KMR is more than just weight savings, where the cross bolts meet the barrel nut is another part of the genius of the system. If the M-look is to give KMR serious competition it will need a rail that can compete with the KMR in weight, thinness, having 1:30, 4:30, 7:30 & 10:30 direct attachment points along with a similar system to lock the rail up... I also don't see how M-LOL rail panels will work, maybe not a big deal to everyone but it is an issue. I also wonder if they'll be able to make a direct attach VFG that will attach without the use of any tools (something the BCM keymod VFG achieves).
What do you mean? On the Keymod both the hardware and rail are all metal. If the actual piece of gear is plastic, then that really is an issue with the gear, not the attachment.
Well yes and no, right? Sling mounts and handstops are metal, but BCM ships the rail with polymer rails. As another poster just referred, it seems like the M-Lok was developed solely for using polymer/plastic attachments; due to the "fact" that Keymod didn't allow for that.
If the M-look is to give KMR serious competition it will need a rail that can compete with the KMR in weight, thinness, having 1:30, 4:30, 7:30 & 10:30 direct attachment points along with a similar system to lock the rail up.
You are comparing a single rail system (BCM KMR) to an entirely new standardized method of attaching rails (M-Lok). Not a valid comparison.
I just don't get it. I don't need to slide picatinny rails and accessories back and forth freely.
MOE handguards dont directly accept picatiny accessories and they have not had a hard time selling their product. And I dont think anyone was confused about the support for the MOE line either.
I for one am interested. I dont need a rail, keymod or other, to mount a light and vfg. So for me a MOE handguard works and is affordable, and if they can improve it all the better.
Not to say there are no advantages to a rail (i.e. free floated barrel) but its up to the individual to compare these with the added cost. Its kind of hard to compare a $40 handguard vs a $300. A better comparison would me Magpuls offering vs the B5 polymer keymod handguard. And if what Magpul says is true, the B5 might have issues in the long run.
There is a good point here, if magpul is shooting for the same market that they have held for quite some time, that is to say the market of people wishing to have a drop in system that allows more flexibility and mounting option than a standard handguard at a low price point and is now looking at improving the system so that it is easier for those to mount the hardware without having to constantly mount and remove the handguard then I don't see magpul having issues. The MOE mounting system was taken by IWC and they produced some very nice options for the system. Blunt answer, yes there is room enough for both systems in the market place, if anything Magpul, with their market proliferation among weekend shooters may have an advantage over Keymod actually.
I still stand by my musing that this might also be the opening of magpul offering a free float system that would need a mounting system like this since it would not allow constant removal of the handguard to mount a rail section or other items. Too early to call one way or the other.
PatrioticDisorder
04-23-14, 17:29
Magpul just responded on TOS on exactly what the problem with keymod and their polymer is.
"As stated before the KeyMod's conical head bolts were designed for metal and are not a viable solution for mounting accessories on polymer handguards such as the MOE series. On plastic materials, the conical mating surfaces of KeyMod will either promote cracking or loosening due to creep and deformation of the polymer material. So using KeyMod on MOE series handguards was not an option.
We would have been perfectly happy to adopt another standard...we certainly would have rather used the design and engineering time to work on actual physical products. We set out to test everything out there, and talked to manufacturers of metal rails as well as using our own experience in polymer. After the dust cleared from shaker table time with heat cycles, live fire, pull out testing, drop tests, etc., etc., we ended up with M-LOK.
We thought about this one for a while, as we didn't want to be seen as muddying the marketplace "just because", but the results from our testing, and the response from our initial contacts with metal rail manufacturers about the ease with which M-LOK is machined made the case for release." - Magpul
You are comparing a single rail system (BCM KMR) to an entirely new standardized method of attaching rails (M-Lok). Not a valid comparison.
It's not really a comparison, it's more of a statement. Having a rail that will accept m-lok accessories that is in the same league as the KMR (IMO nothing is right now) will be an important consideration to many people... This is another HD-DVD vs. Blu Ray as someone mentioned earlier, but keymod is already proving to be the Blu Ray.
It's not really a comparison, it's more of a statement. Having a rail that will accept m-lok accessories that is in the same league as the KMR (IMO nothing is right now) will be an important consideration to many people... This is another HD-DVD vs. Blu Ray as someone mentioned earlier, but keymod is already proving to be the Blu Ray.
The KMR is the new standard for a slick lightweight rail. But we are mostly discussing the new mounting method and comparing it to keymod. Right now when I am thinking of comparing the M Lok to keymod, the most talked about rail is the KMR. So I think it is just natural for us to make a comparison between the two. I think they only way a new rail with the M Lok could compete with the KMR is for BCM to also make a rail with M Loc. If they don't, then it will probably be a while before we see something comparable.
I was very tempted to buy a KMR, only because I am building an SBR upper. I just can not justify the cost of the rail for the amount of shooting I do with my carbine. The Troy TRX rail that I have been using for the last few years has held up fine with its mounting system, so I bought a MI SS rail. I would rather spend the money on ammo and training. A lot of other people are going to be looking for an economical rail, what if ALG and/or MI starts to make thier rails with M Lok? Those things will fly off the shelf as long as there readily available accessories.
I'm glad they aren't just following the masses and putting out keymod because everyone else is. Keymod systems and accessories are on the verge of an almost guaranteed saturated keymod market within a year to date.
As a consumer you want a market saturation, more options and better pricing. Now as a manufacturer? Nope.
Everyone keeps making HD-DVD and BlueRay comparisons but right now with so many different "universal" (universal so long as everyone uses that pattern...) attachment methods this is really more like digital storage.
Rail systems are CD drives (or 3.5" diskettes or whatever legacy standard). The newer attachments, all trying to be the new standard are Compact Flash, Memory Stick, MMC, xD, Smart Media..... you get the idea. The fight now is who becomes the SD.
ETA: None of this is to say that there isn't a market for more than one system, just not a dozen. It would be a big step if some were backwards compatible.
what if ALG and/or MI starts to make thier rails with M Lok? .
Not that I think there is anything wrong with the EMR as is (it's high on the list for my next upper), but I could see something like thIs happening. Isn't it a Geissele rail in the M-Lok advertisement?
Bearded_Brometheus
04-23-14, 20:40
Geissele gave a good rundown of the pros/cons over at arfcom:
We are still going to be making Keymod rails. As well as M-LOK rails. And as well as the Geissele screw insert rail (MK1) and the Geissele MK2 and MK3 slide nut system rails.
As a mfg I can say that M-LOK is way easier to make than a Keymod rail. Way easier. The back chamfer on Keymod sucks time up in the machine, too much to make it worth producing at the same price as our MK2-MK4 rails.
The rails also feel much better in the hand since the M-LOK apertures can easily have a generous chamfer. A chamfer on the Keymod aperture can't really be done very well since the wall is so thin at the edge of the back chamfer. The a bare finger sliding along a row of Keymod apertures feels like a dull cheese grater (my opinion)
The Keymod accessory rail is tall in comparison to the M-LOK accy rail (Geissele OEM are shorter than both).
The M-LOK accessory rail is also easier to make. No special seats for odd ball flat head screws. No staking of the nuts which are not relatively easy to make. No special back chamfer tools that require a specially ground tool or one available from one or two tool suppliers.
The button head cap screw for M-LOK are readily available and the flat head design allows you to get more torque on the screw vs. an angled head screw that acts like a torque limiter.
M-LOK accessory rail has nice shear lugs that extend from one end of the accy rail to the other, not just in one place so rotational force into the accy rail is resisted better.
Detractions to M-LOK: The nuts need "adjusting" to the internal thickness of the rail mounting surface. It only takes a second or two but Keymod can just be cranked down.
You have to be careful after adjusting that you only loosen the screw 1 turn to remove. If you just start unscrewing the nut will rotate out of its cam and you have to turn the screw back and forth a little to get it to line up again.
The M-LOK screws require some kind of prevailing torque as the screw is unloosened to work "well". A screw with a polymer patch works good, or a little bit of purple loctite or even grease. If there was absolutely little friction to the screw/nut the system would still work but it might take a little finagling to get the nut into the unlock position.
Personally, I think rail manufactures will like the ease of making M-LOK rails and this will drive availability.
If I can answer any questions let me know.
We will have pre-production MK8 rails at our booth at the NRA show.
WHG
Later gives a price range:
About $250 sans accy rails
SOURCE:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/644847_New_Magpul_M_LOK_vs_Noveske_VLTOR_KeyMod.html&page=2
IMHO, Geissele's SMR MK1 still reigns supreme, but the M-Lock vs. keymod competition is only a plus for the consumer.
Having a rail that will accept m-lok accessories that is in the same league as the KMR (IMO nothing is right now) will be an important consideration to many people... m
How is the Geissele rail in the add not in the same "league" as the KMR?
But we are mostly discussing the new mounting method and comparing it to keymod.
Exactly the KMR and the Magpul are completely different designs. Magpul developed an improved version of their own attachment method. They chose not to use Keymod because they thought it would not be optimum for polymer hardware, and I would think Magpul knows a thing or two about polymers ;)
Geissele gave a good rundown of the pros/cons over at arfcom:
Later gives a price range:
SOURCE:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/644847_New_Magpul_M_LOK_vs_Noveske_VLTOR_KeyMod.html&page=2
IMHO, Geissele's SMR MK1 still reigns supreme, but the M-Lock vs. keymod competition is only a plus for the consumer.
Thank you for posting this.
[QUOTE=Bearded_Brometheus;1901471]
SOURCE:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/644847_New_Magpul_M_LOK_vs_Noveske_VLTOR_KeyMod.html&page=2/QUOTE]
Thanks for the link
Here is a short video from Magpul showing a little bit of it in action on a MOE handguard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y57WIow3Mws
That is another thing that will keep it going regardless of anyone's opinion of it, the MOE handguards.
ScatmanCrothers
04-23-14, 21:07
As a consumer you want a market saturation, more options and better pricing. Now as a manufacturer? Nope.
Definitely. There are plenty of accessories available for the keymod already and you can bet there are tons more in the works from familiar companies and ones not so familiar alike. As a company, Magpul going off in somewhat of their own direction looks like a good move for them and us. With the mounting hardware requirements for keymod it's hard to differentiate yourself from the competitors pricewise so an effective original item is the key. Most bases have been covered already as far as accessories go so a Magpul keymod line would be spinning the tires IYAM. I'm satisfied with the ones on the market already so I'd rather a company like this focus on moving in a different direction to see what turns up. R&D that's not on my dime but can benefit me in the future is always a good thing.
Everyone keeps making HD-DVD and BlueRay comparisons but right now with so many different "universal" (universal so long as everyone uses that pattern...) attachment methods this is really more like digital storage.
Rail systems are CD drives (or 3.5" diskettes or whatever legacy standard). The newer attachments, all trying to be the new standard are Compact Flash, Memory Stick, MMC, xD, Smart Media..... you get the idea. The fight now is who becomes the SD.
ETA: None of this is to say that there isn't a market for more than one system, just not a dozen. It would be a big step if some were backwards compatible.
That's a good point and spot on comparison. I'm fine with as many options as possible though; better chances for more people to find what works best for them both in functional and monetary means. I fully expect Magpul to come out with a dizzying array of accessories for this right off the bat. The comments in the arfcom link above make me hopeful.
I just looked at the Geissele website and the cheapest keymod rail they have is $300. So as Mr Geissele stated on TOS, the price for the M Lok rail is $250. That is a major difference in cost and shows how much more it takes to manufacture a keymod rail.
http://geissele.com/rails.html?p=1
mastiffhound
04-23-14, 21:15
I had been looking to replace my heavy older Troy 11" Bravo with a keymod rail but I just couldn't make a decision on which one. The sharp corners (close up pics look sharp at least) on the keymod holes were my main concern because sometimes I don't wear gloves (I know, shame on me) and I hold on very tight. My hands are ruff and calloused from being a mechanic and playing guitar but I still use ladder covers. Pressing flesh into those little holes with sharp corners with a recoiling rifle seemed like a bad idea. Anybody actually use their keymod rail without gloves? Unfortunately, I have yet to handle one because I live in the boonies. The Magpul M-lok looks like it could be light and takes that getting cut concern away for me.
Magpul makes good stuff on the regular. I don't think they would just make stuff willy-nilly to be a special snowflake. I have a Troy 15" Alpha on my 20" that I like but getting extra rails or moving them is a pain. I've learned to move them by using a magnet on the attachment plate but it sucks to have to play with it that way. I guess I have to use what I have for now but I'm looking forward to hear from some guys who've used the Keymod that get some hands on time with the M-lok.
Too much noise and irrelevant crap on this thread - ONLY 2 things matter:
1) M-Lok slots and locking mechanism will be easier and cheaper for rail MFGs to machine than Keymod.
2) Magpul will put all its weight to market many direct attach M-Lok accessories
MountainRaven
04-23-14, 21:29
I had been looking to replace my heavy older Troy 11" Bravo with a keymod rail but I just couldn't make a decision on which one. The sharp corners (close up pics look sharp at least) on the keymod holes were my main concern because sometimes I don't wear gloves (I know, shame on me) and I hold on very tight. My hands are ruff and calloused from being a mechanic and playing guitar but I still use ladder covers. Pressing flesh into those little holes with sharp corners with a recoiling rifle seemed like a bad idea. Anybody actually use their keymod rail without gloves? Unfortunately, I have yet to handle one because I live in the boonies. The Magpul M-lok looks like it could be light and takes that getting cut concern away for me.
Magpul makes good stuff on the regular. I don't think they would just make stuff willy-nilly to be a special snowflake. I have a Troy 15" Alpha on my 20" that I like but getting extra rails or moving them is a pain. I've learned to move them by using a magnet on the attachment plate but it sucks to have to play with it that way. I guess I have to use what I have for now but I'm looking forward to hear from some guys who've used the Keymod that get some hands on time with the M-lok.
I have very soft hands and unless it's extremely cold or extremely hot out, I don't wear gloves even with uncovered "quad rails". Provided that they are from a quality manufacturer. (Crappy rails tend to have lots of sharp edges, while IME, the better quality rails have slight radii to their edges to soften the feel.)
The only reason I can think of to cover a Keymod rail in plastic is because direct sun light on a black hand guard sucks when it's hot out.
In any case, the original MOE stuff is going to be mostly orphaned after M-LOK gets going, so in 18 months we'll be in the same place we are today: Picatinny, KeyMod, Magpul, and everything else. The Magpul is just changing from original MOE to M-LOK.
PatrioticDisorder
04-23-14, 21:37
How is the Geissele rail in the add not in the same "league" as the KMR?
Weight and the method the cross bolts attach the rail to the barrel but (on the top side vs. bottom side)... Nothing else is in the KMR's league right now.
Nothing else is in the KMR's league right now.
Give it a week.
pentosinjunkie
04-24-14, 00:02
[QUOTE=Bearded_Brometheus;1901471]
SOURCE:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/644847_New_Magpul_M_LOK_vs_Noveske_VLTOR_KeyMod.html&page=2/QUOTE]
Thanks for the link
Here is a short video from Magpul showing a little bit of it in action on a MOE handguard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y57WIow3Mws
That is another thing that will keep it going regardless of anyone's opinion of it, the MOE handguards.
Can anyone ID the MOE hand guard in the video? Doesn't look like an AR/M4 or shotgun handguard...
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
MOUNT-N-SLOT
04-24-14, 00:28
[QUOTE=351322;1901495]
Can anyone ID the MOE hand guard in the video? Doesn't look like an AR/M4 or shotgun handguard...
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
It looks like a brand new design.
Will the new M-Lok accessories be made primarily from Polymer (Rail Light Mount, RVG, AFG, MBUS 2) or some sort of metal (MBUS PRO, RSA, QD End Plate)?
Thanks,
MOUNT-N-SLOT
Give it a week.
Do you know something we don't know?
Any rumors as to what lengths the MK8 will be released in?
In any case, the original MOE stuff is going to be mostly orphaned after M-LOK gets going, so in 18 months we'll be in the same place we are today: Picatinny, KeyMod, Magpul, and everything else. The Magpul is just changing from original MOE to M-LOK.
I've gone through this whole thread confused as to why, and finally someone makes it crystal. You guys are getting worked up over a company's product redesign.
It doesn't look like m-lok is competing with anyone. It's updating its current moe rails that need the handguard removed to be installed to rails that can be installed simply with a twist of a cam nut.
Think of it this way, what you think about this idea if keymod didn't exist?
To me... making a design consideration for what will work on the friggin plastic MOE hand guard is cuckoo. I know Magpul's roots are in the plastic injection world, but the MOE hand guard just strikes me as an economy rail for casual users.
I know the lower cost stuff will sell faster to the masses though... so I guess Magpul knows where they're going with the approach.
Think of it this way, what you think about this idea if keymod didn't exist?
I wouldn't give two shits. ;) I mean.... I don't give a crap about standardization. If I get my crap attached to the gun, they could quit making the system for all I care.
What do you mean?
I'm able to grasp a 1913 spec handguard without undue pain, stress, strain, injury, or fatigue... So I don't have to subject myself to all the ridulous antics of trying mount stuff to a handguard with no rails. Or mount rails to a handguard with no rails to mount something to the rail, or find covers to mount to the hanguard with no rails that that were eliminated so they could be used without covers.
I'm able to grasp a 1913 spec handguard without undue pain, stress, strain, injury, or fatigue... So I don't have to subject myself to all the ridulous antics of trying mount stuff to a handguard with no rails. Or mount rails to a handguard with no rails to mount something to the rail, or find covers to mount to the hanguard with no rails that that were eliminated so they could be used without covers.
It strikes me that all of Geissele's rails, the KMR, and the M-LOK rail already accomplish all of these things. The only variable here is the attachment system.
It wasn't just designed for polymer. That was a primary consideration, and was what started us down this path, but it's a LOT faster and easier to manufacture and QC in metal, it doesn't leave .020" edges, the nuts are easy to make, and it's crazy strong, among other benefits. We didn't just test keymod vs M-LOK in polymer. Everything we did in polymer, we did in metal.
Starting tomorrow at NRA, we'll release the continuously growing list of metal hand guard and accessory manufacturers who have committed to making M-LOK products, and it's not a short list. Geissele Automatics was onboard first and we used the SMR in testing, but we started the industry release a few days prior to the public release, and a lot of great manufacturers were sold on the system immediately after seeing it. There will be both metal and polymer direct-mount accessories available very soon, from multiple sources.
To me... making a design consideration for what will work on the friggin plastic MOE hand guard is cuckoo. I know Magpul's roots are in the plastic injection world, but the MOE hand guard just strikes me as an economy rail for casual users.
I know the lower cost stuff will sell faster to the masses though... so I guess Magpul knows where they're going with the approach.
Sounds good. It will be interesting to see for sure.
Give it a week.
Do you know something we don't know?
No, something that everyone here should know. Magpul is one of a few companies big enough to move the entire industry. The industry just found a new direction to go. Everybody should either be heading that direction, or better be so kick ass they can swim upstream. Alone.
There will never be a thread titled 'Where are all the M-lok accessories?' after this rolls out.
justin_247
04-24-14, 10:24
It wasn't just designed for polymer. That was a primary consideration, and was what started us down this path, but it's a LOT faster and easier to manufacture and QC in metal, it doesn't leave .020" edges, the nuts are easy to make, and it's crazy strong, among other benefits. We didn't just test keymod vs M-LOK in polymer. Everything we did in polymer, we did in metal.
Starting tomorrow at NRA, we'll release the continuously growing list of metal hand guard and accessory manufacturers who have committed to making M-LOK products, and it's not a short list. Geissele Automatics was onboard first and we used the SMR in testing, but we started the industry release a few days prior to the public release, and a lot of great manufacturers were sold on the system immediately after seeing it. There will be both metal and polymer direct-mount accessories available very soon, from multiple sources.
When MagPul first released its polymer magazines, you published videos online of various stress tests of the PMAGs vs. aluminum GI mags. This helped sell the concept to skeptics.
Why don't you do the same with this? You discussed a shake test vs. the KeyMod in your technical guide, for example. How about a video comparing the results?
Quite frankly, I'm a bit skeptical here. I liked the KeyMod concept, but I can't say I like it now that we're beginning new standardization wars. This does nothing but further complicate the platform and add confusion to consumers.
If the conical head bolts used with km are problematic for polymers, what is stopping anyone from just using button head screws?
You would have a tough time tightening the button head cap screws. GH
Why? Shouldn't that side of the accessory be oblivious to the other as long as you design for the screw/bolt you are using?
When MagPul first released its polymer magazines, you published videos online of various stress tests of the PMAGs vs. aluminum GI mags.
The videos were put out much later, they were not part of the release of the Gen 1 PMAGs. That isn't how I remember it at all.
jukeboxx13
04-24-14, 14:19
The biggest advantage for the M-LOK is for the manufacture imo not the consumer since it cost less to make vs keymod.
The biggest advantage for the M-LOK is for the manufacture imo not the consumer since it cost less to make vs keymod.
The KMR is not an expensive rail. The manufacturer would have to pass that onto the customer if it was significant. Maybe that concern is an issue on the gear side... but not for the handguard.
I'm with markm, once my crap is bolted on its done. Even the MI SSG2 came with all the rail sections I needed. I am interested in the new offerings for a future rifle but don't have a dog in the keymod/m-lok debate.
ScatmanCrothers
04-24-14, 14:29
The biggest advantage for the M-LOK is for the manufacture imo not the consumer since it cost less to make vs keymod. How would that not be an equal advantage for consumers?
wildcard600
04-24-14, 14:40
How would that not be an equal advantage for consumers?
this ^^^
if the product is cheaper to produce, it will likely retail for less as well.
jukeboxx13
04-24-14, 15:00
Not talking about cost of the rail to purchase, but cost to make only.
I am sure the Geissele MK8 will be around the same price as the KMR even though it cost less to make a M-LOK system. There are drawbacks to everything so lets wait and see what those will be for the M-LOK.
Not talking about cost of the rail to purchase, but cost to make only.
The cost to make directly impacts the cost to purchase. The point the boys are making is that if an item is cheaper to make, it can be more competetively prices in the market.
jukeboxx13
04-24-14, 15:08
The KMR is not an expensive rail. The manufacturer would have to pass that onto the customer if it was significant. Maybe that concern is an issue on the gear side... but not for the handguard.
Agreed.
I have read on another site that the Keymod attachment is not as secure as we were lead to believe. One guy said he saw attachments fly off during normal shooting, but thats something I'll have to test for myself.
jukeboxx13
04-24-14, 15:11
The cost to make directly impacts the cost to purchase. The point the boys are making is that if an item is cheaper to make, it can be more competetively prices in the market.
I understand.
I just brought up the cost to make cause I have read a few post from manufactures and industry partners talking about it.
I have read on another site that the Keymod attachment is not as secure as we were lead to believe. One guy said he saw attachments fly off during normal shooting, but thats something I'll have to test for myself.
The OEM rail sections I've put on are certainly solid. Perhaps the items were aftermarket failures.
I don't see either the Keymod or M-LOK being less than solid. Both are coming from solid designers. The problem is that half of the end users are at least mildly retarded.
I could not keep the light mount tight on my nsr rail.
Bought a surefire x300 so I wouldn't have to deal with Keymod hardware anymore.
NSR ate out the plastic of the X300 and I suspect it will be loose on my glock now.
Flip side, I love the profile of the handguard and if the finish didn't make the top rail so thick, I would love the texture.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
I could not keep the light mount tight on my nsr rail.
Which mount? And was is a locktite fixable issue?
jukeboxx13
04-24-14, 15:34
The OEM rail sections I've put on are certainly solid. Perhaps the items were aftermarket failures.
I don't see either the Keymod or M-LOK being less than solid. Both are coming from solid designers. The problem is that half of the end users are at least mildly retarded.
Yea I cant figure out how it would fly off without the screw breaking or comming loose.
jerrysimons
04-24-14, 17:33
So the the whole reason for M-Lok is because keymod nuts didn't play well with polymer mounting surfaces? Sounds like a problem with the rail/handguard material and not the attachment method!
Agreed.
I have read on another site that the Keymod attachment is not as secure as we were lead to believe. One guy said he saw attachments fly off during normal shooting, but thats something I'll have to test for myself.
Yea I cant figure out how it would fly off without the screw breaking or comming loose.
Sounds ridiculous, like hearsay usually is...
justin_247
04-24-14, 18:39
The videos were put out much later, they were not part of the release of the Gen 1 PMAGs. That isn't how I remember it at all.
Correct, but they have been used countless times to promote the product.
Being that Magpul is basically saying that the KeyMod is inferior, I think they need to show why beyond simply mentioning a shake test.
No, something that everyone here should know. Magpul is one of a few companies big enough to move the entire industry. The industry just found a new direction to go. Everybody should either be heading that direction, or better be so kick ass they can swim upstream. Alone.
There will never be a thread titled 'Where are all the M-lok accessories?' after this rolls out.
And there aren't any of those threads for Keymod anymore either.
crowkiller
04-24-14, 19:10
Being that Magpul is basically saying that the KeyMod is inferior, I think they need to show why beyond simply mentioning a shake test.
^agree^
PatrioticDisorder
04-24-14, 19:17
I understand.
I just brought up the cost to make cause I have read a few post from manufactures and industry partners talking about it.
A manufacturer would need to manufacture a m-lok rail with weight, lock up and attachment points (cardinal directions as well) similar in quality to the KMR for a significantly cheaper price (and I say significantly cheaper because KMR/Keymod is off to a huge head start) for this to be competitive. I'm sure it is possible, but I don't see it happening, at least in a timely manner.
jerrysimons
04-24-14, 20:14
Being that Magpul is basically saying that the KeyMod is inferior, I think they need to show why beyond simply mentioning a shake test.
Yes, let's see some proof! So far all we have is that polymer deforms and eventually creeps the keymod nut loose. Big deal, not interested in plastic handguards or rails anyway. Though, who has heard any complaints about B5 systems keymod polymer handguard?
Maybe it is stronger than keymod when used on metal rails (I have my doubts). That leaves us with the possible benefit in cost of manufacture/machine time. I'll let this be discussed by industry professionals but know that Mr. Giessele's claim is not uniformly accepted.
Maybe if M-lok were an inline improvement to MOE handguards, or if Magpul were going to make keymod accessories in addition to MOE/M-lok stuff I wouldn't feel so put off. But trying to posit it as the new, better "standardized" attachment method, just as keymod really to took off, doesn't leave the market better off, IMO. Oh well, keymod will survive without Magpul, 'just would have been nice, ya know.
ScatmanCrothers
04-24-14, 20:28
I could not keep the light mount tight on my nsr rail.
Bought a surefire x300 so I wouldn't have to deal with Keymod hardware anymore.
NSR ate out the plastic of the X300 and I suspect it will be loose on my glock now.
Flip side, I love the profile of the handguard and if the finish didn't make the top rail so thick, I would love the texture.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
I know this is a little off topic from the thread but so many questions here. Which light mount, what did you torque it to, Loctite used? What do you mean the X300 got eaten out by the NSR :)? I'm assuming it was at the 12 o'clock... Were you using the universal or picatinny plate on the bottom, lock down or removable type? Are you sure the screws on the base weren't screwed down too tight which can make installation and removal next to impossible? Last one, what about the NSR's finish makes it "thick" compared to other handguards? So many variables at play here.
Not saying these things didn't happen, just curious since I've had 0 of these issues. I took a non-marring hammer to the front side of a Noveske scout mount on an NSR after torqueing and blue loctiting right when I first bought it and there wasn't the slightest budge or turning of marked screws. Also painted a 9" NSR with cheap Krylon for my brother and sliding on a X300U didn't even remove the paint, let alone eat the plastic up. Had a tougher time (hell of a time actually) getting one on a CMR but it still didn't take the finish off or eat up the light.
Yes, let's see some proof!
Damn guys, it hasn't even been released yet haha
A lot of ppl hate/hated the keymod. Now another company comes out with something else, that addresses a lot of the critics concerns....and ppl complain?
What's wrong with variety? This sounds like the same ppl that complain and the lack of variety polymer company's colors, but also complain about the over abundance of muzzle devices...
I withhold judgment
jerrysimons
04-24-14, 20:53
A lot of ppl hate/hated the keymod. Now another company comes out with something else, that addresses a lot of the critics concerns....and ppl complain?
What's wrong with variety? This sounds like the same ppl that complain and the lack of variety polymer company's colors, but also complain about the over abundance of muzzle devices...
I withhold judgment
Really? What concerns other than, "eww, it looks like shelving..."
jukeboxx13
04-24-14, 21:01
A manufacturer would need to manufacture a m-lok rail with weight, lock up and attachment points (cardinal directions as well) similar in quality to the KMR for a significantly cheaper price (and I say significantly cheaper because KMR/Keymod is off to a huge head start) for this to be competitive. I'm sure it is possible, but I don't see it happening, at least in a timely manner.
Agreed, but I beleive Magpul is coming out with a new polymer handguard that will be way less, cant speak for other manufactures though. There basically aiming to own the low cost KISS market like they did when the MOE came out imo, and I am all for it.
From what I have gathered, Magpul came up with this design because they did not find other attachment methods that worked well with the MOE product line and they were looking at updating the MOE product line. So they made the M Loc for their own products. If they end up being the only company that makes and sells M Loc parts it doesn't matter. They are a huge supplier of OEM parts to just about everyone that makes a rifle. They will phase out the old MOE parts and it will be replaced by this. It will be just like the regular MOE parts but just an updated version since the industry and consumers are moving to direct attach accessories.
Now if other companies adopt the system for reasons that have been outlined in this thread, it just icing on the cake. As Geissele has stated on TOS, an SMR with M Lok is cheaper to produce than a Keymod SMR by retail price of $50. If this system does reduce cost to the end consumer, by reducing manufacturing cost, what do you think the consumer is going to buy?
From what I have gathered, Magpul came up with this design because they did not find other attachment methods that worked well with the MOE product line and they were looking at updating the MOE product line. So they made the M Loc for their own products. If they end up being the only company that makes and sells M Loc parts it doesn't matter. They are a huge supplier of OEM parts to just about everyone that makes a rifle. They will phase out the old MOE parts and it will be replaced by this. It will be just like the regular MOE parts but just an updated version since the industry and consumers are moving to direct attach accessories.
Now if other companies adopt the system for reasons that have been outlined in this thread, it just icing on the cake. As Geissele has stated on TOS, an SMR with M Lok is cheaper to produce than a Keymod SMR by retail price of $50. If this system does reduce cost to the end consumer, by reducing manufacturing cost, what do you think the consumer is going to buy?
I get the feeling that Magpul had already been working with many manufacturers to produce MLOK before this announcement, and that is part of the decision. Noted that they are making the licensing no-fee. Also noted that Geisselle appears to already be at least designing them, and MI says they are too. IIRC correctly, I saw someone on facebook I believe from Samson say they are as well.
I get the feeling that Magpul had already been working with many manufacturers to produce MLOK before this announcement, and that is part of the decision. Noted that they are making the licensing no-fee. Also noted that Geisselle appears to already be at least designing them, and MI says they are too. IIRC correctly, I saw someone on facebook I believe from Samson say they are as well.
SPQR476 stated this earlier in the thread.
It wasn't just designed for polymer. That was a primary consideration, and was what started us down this path, but it's a LOT faster and easier to manufacture and QC in metal, it doesn't leave .020" edges, the nuts are easy to make, and it's crazy strong, among other benefits. We didn't just test keymod vs M-LOK in polymer. Everything we did in polymer, we did in metal.
Starting tomorrow at NRA, we'll release the continuously growing list of metal hand guard and accessory manufacturers who have committed to making M-LOK products, and it's not a short list. Geissele Automatics was onboard first and we used the SMR in testing, but we started the industry release a few days prior to the public release, and a lot of great manufacturers were sold on the system immediately after seeing it. There will be both metal and polymer direct-mount accessories available very soon, from multiple sources.
It's been done, M Lok is here and it is not going anywhere. Like I said, Magpul will still keep it around on their products, even if no one else does.
I'm glad they aren't just following the masses and putting out keymod because everyone else is. Keymod systems and accessories are on the verge of an almost guaranteed saturated keymod market within a year to date. If I was Magpul I wouldn't want to go that route either just to contend for a small percentage of a non-standardized market. Instead it looks like they're creating/adopting a system based on similar ideals that looks to offer the potential for a few advantages over keymod. Like you mentioned, their manufacturing capabilities focused on a new system could mean a homerun for them if it is an effective system. The price point will be key here and I have no doubt it'll be very competitive based on who we are talking about here. Looking forward to watching this pan out. Of course buyers of the previous latest and greatest are sure to have bunched panties over this though so hopefully this thread can stay on track with updates.
+1
As a consumer you want a market saturation, more options and better pricing. Now as a manufacturer? Nope.
ETA: None of this is to say that there isn't a market for more than one system, just not a dozen. It would be a big step if some were backwards compatible.
Depends on the Manufacturer :cool:
If you are an industry leader you can create your own path and others will follow. Everyone knows Magpul makes great products and does their homework a.k.a. R&D (which is possibly why the AK Pmags G2 are taking a while) and that is a good thing.
I believe this is a good move for Magpul to offer another option for the consumer instead of just jumping into the KM bandwagon. By offering another rail mounting option, the consumer will have more choices, and more choices means more manufacturer competition, and as a result it will drive prices lower.
The HD-Dvd/Bluray comparison is also inaccurate; we are not talking about standardizing here. M-LOK is offering another option for consumers and at the same time updating their MOE rail mounting system. Its good to see that consumers can choose whether they want to stick with quadrails, Keymod, or try the new M-Lok.
I could not keep the light mount tight on my nsr rail.
Bought a surefire x300 so I wouldn't have to deal with Keymod hardware anymore.
NSR ate out the plastic of the X300 and I suspect it will be loose on my glock now.
Flip side, I love the profile of the handguard and if the finish didn't make the top rail so thick, I would love the texture.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Should be fine on your flock. You have to swap mounts anyways on the light.
jerrysimons
04-25-14, 10:05
I believe this is a good move for Magpul to offer another option for the consumer instead of just jumping into the KM bandwagon. By offering another rail mounting option, the consumer will have more choices, and more choices means more manufacturer competition, and as a result it will drive prices lower.
The HD-Dvd/Bluray comparison is also inaccurate; we are not talking about standardizing here. M-LOK is offering another option for consumers and at the same time updating their MOE rail mounting system. Its good to see that consumers can choose whether they want to stick with quadrails, Keymod, or try the new M-Lok.
It seems that is exactly what the aim is, otherwise this whole marketing campaign for everyone to jump on the M-Lok bandwagon would not be here and we would just have an inline MOE update. The clear implication of SPQR476's last post is the claim that keymod is inferior to M-Lok.
It wasn't just designed for polymer. That was a primary consideration, and was what started us down this path, but it's a LOT faster and easier to manufacture and QC in metal, it doesn't leave .020" edges, the nuts are easy to make, and it's crazy strong, among other benefits. We didn't just test keymod vs M-LOK in polymer. Everything we did in polymer, we did in metal.
Starting tomorrow at NRA, we'll release the continuously growing list of metal hand guard and accessory manufacturers who have committed to making M-LOK products, and it's not a short list. Geissele Automatics was onboard first and we used the SMR in testing, but we started the industry release a few days prior to the public release, and a lot of great manufacturers were sold on the system immediately after seeing it. There will be both metal and polymer direct-mount accessories available very soon, from multiple sources.
[QUOTE=SPQR476;1901726
Starting tomorrow at NRA, we'll release the continuously growing list of metal hand guard and accessory manufacturers who have committed to making M-LOK products[/QUOTE]
Can anyone announce who these manufactures are that are making MLOK products for those of us who didn't get to attend today?
Geissele, Krebs, Noveske, LWRCI, Troy, Midwest industries, JP Enterprises, PWS, POF, Samson, Diamondback, Hodge Defense, CMMG, Gear Sector, IWC, Mega, Aero Precision, and about 20 others signed on with several dozen in the paperwork process.
Geissele, Krebs, Noveske, LWRCI, Troy, Midwest industries, JP Enterprises, PWS, POF, Samson, Diamondback, Hodge Defense, CMMG, Gear Sector, IWC, Mega, Aero Precision, and about 20 others signed on with several dozen in the paperwork process.
Looks like right out of the gate M-LOK is a winner.
mastiffhound
04-26-14, 13:57
Geissele, Krebs, Noveske, LWRCI, Troy, Midwest industries, JP Enterprises, PWS, POF, Samson, Diamondback, Hodge Defense, CMMG, Gear Sector, IWC, Mega, Aero Precision, and about 20 others signed on with several dozen in the paperwork process.
Wow. I expected a few but that is a big list of some prime time players. I think most or all of them already make the Keymod rails. I don't know how I feel about all of these companies going for a finger in two different pies. I wonder with the proposed lower machining costs of M-lok and the usual savings passed on to the customer how many will look at Keymod and then see the lower price for M-lok and still buy Keymod?
ScatmanCrothers
04-26-14, 14:13
Geissele, Krebs, Noveske, LWRCI, Troy, Midwest industries, JP Enterprises, PWS, POF, Samson, Diamondback, Hodge Defense, CMMG, Gear Sector, IWC, Mega, Aero Precision, and about 20 others signed on with several dozen in the paperwork process.
This makes reading the beginning of this thread very entertaining. Impressive abbreviated list there, sir.
Bearded_Brometheus
04-26-14, 15:22
List of current participating manufacturer's via magpul's fb:
25453
MountainRaven
04-26-14, 16:28
BCM, DD, and KAC aren't on the list (yet).
DD hasn't picked up KeyMod, either, though. I don't see BCM going away from KeyMod anytime soon, as they have the man who designed the thing in charge of their R&D. And I'm still kind of surprised that KAC even picked up KeyMod.
And neither Colt nor H&K are on the list. (Not that I would expect them to be, unless .mil picks it up.)
You'll see Colts with M Lok by simple virtue of the MOE models later this year.
That list isn't even near complete, we just can't update it at the speed people are signing up.
That list isn't even near complete, we just can't update it at the speed people are signing up.
Outstanding. Will offer some compatibility between my patrol rifle (should KAC join in) and the wife's Colt I'll build later this year with the M-LOK system.
I give BCM til the end of the summer to announce the release of the "MLR"...
Damn, this got interesting real quick.
An mlok nsr is an interesting idea!
Heavy Metal
04-26-14, 22:07
That list isn't even near complete, we just can't update it at the speed people are signing up.
Hey J, are you workin' for MAGPUL now? If so, congrats!!!
I'll buy one if Larue makes it :cool:
Yes, let's see some proof! So far all we have is that polymer deforms and eventually creeps the keymod nut loose. Big deal, not interested in plastic handguards or rails anyway. Though, who has heard any complaints about B5 systems keymod polymer handguard?
Maybe it is stronger than keymod when used on metal rails (I have my doubts). That leaves us with the possible benefit in cost of manufacture/machine time. I'll let this be discussed by industry professionals but know that Mr. Giessele's claim is not uniformly accepted.
Maybe if M-lok were an inline improvement to MOE handguards, or if Magpul were going to make keymod accessories in addition to MOE/M-lok stuff I wouldn't feel so put off. But trying to posit it as the new, better "standardized" attachment method, just as keymod really to took off, doesn't leave the market better off, IMO. Oh well, keymod will survive without Magpul, 'just would have been nice, ya know.
I, for one, want nothing to do with metal handguards. They get hot from firing, get hot from the sun and get cold in the winter. I don't want the added cost and weight of adding plastic panels and I don't want to have to wear gloves every time I want to go out and shoot. The company that's going to get a wad of my hard earned money is the one that comes out with a line of slim, light weight, durable, affordable synthetic free float tubes.
If Mr. G says using the M-Lok will reduce cost to the consumer by $50 and prices his product accordingly, it doesn't matter if his claim is uniformly accepted or not
I, for one, want nothing to do with metal handguards. They get hot from firing, get hot from the sun and get cold in the winter. I don't want the added cost and weight of adding plastic panels and I don't want to have to wear gloves every time I want to go out and shoot. The company that's going to get a wad of my hard earned money is the one that comes out with a line of slim, light weight, durable, affordable synthetic free float tubes.
If Mr. G says using the M-Lok will reduce cost to the consumer by $50 and prices his product accordingly, it doesn't matter if his claim is uniformly accepted or not
APC and Lancer make some nice carbon fibre ones. APC recently showed a carbon keymod rail. I can only imagine m-lok would work better in that application.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
APC and Lancer make some nice carbon fibre ones. APC recently showed a carbon keymod rail. I can only imagine m-lok would work better in that application.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
This would be perfect for mlok:
http://www.lancer-systems.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Handguard1.jpg
... Except that apparently, the Lancer Cf hand guard is 5 oz heavier than the BCM KMR for the same length.
luckydube56
04-27-14, 11:08
I was really hoping for a Keymod AFG from Magpul. Looks like that will not be happening.
I am okay with there being more options. But I stress the term options. I wonder how many of these companies that already have a line of keymod accessories, that will also have M-LOK accessories, such as IWC, will run product lines in parallel. Or will such companies abandon the keymod?
Simple yet effective... Better than Keymod in my opinion. There are so many advantages to the system and the fact
that so many handguard manufacturers are signing on tells me it's a solid and viable solution. Looks like 2015 may be the year of the M-Lok. Keymod is still great and allows for mounting options not possible with add-on rails... Options are always good... Now here's the big question - who's going to come out with the first hybrid picatinny/M-LOK/Keymod freefloat?
APC and Lancer make some nice carbon fibre ones. APC recently showed a carbon keymod rail. I can only imagine m-lok would work better in that application
Yep. The only part they missed for me us affordability. If my budget would allow Lancers would already be mounted on my rifles
I was really hoping for a Keymod AFG from Magpul. Looks like that will not be happening.
I am okay with there being more options. But I stress the term options. I wonder how many of these companies that already have a line of keymod accessories, that will also have M-LOK accessories, such as IWC, will run product lines in parallel. Or will such companies abandon the keymod?
They'll support which ever puts money in the pockets whether it's one or the other or both
luckydube56
04-27-14, 11:48
Simple yet effective... Better than Keymod in my opinion. There are so many advantages to the system and the fact
that so many handguard manufacturers are signing on tells me it's a solid and viable solution. Looks like 2015 may be the year of the M-Lok. Keymod is still great and allows for mounting options not possible with add-on rails... Options are always good... Now here's the big question - who's going to come out with the first hybrid picatinny/M-LOK/Keymod freefloat?
Actually, 2/3 of that equation is already there in either option. The pic rail on top will not likely go away any time soon. And if that's the case, 1913 pic rail mounted optics are not going away any time soon. At least pic rail is here to stay. I cannot envision a new mil spec upper receiver with keyholes or MLOK slots on top.
Furthermore, I wonder if MLOK will mount to the hole in the keyhole. That perpendicular surface is not chamfered; its the slot of the keyhole that has a chamfered edge. I could well just be grasping at straws.
justin_247
04-27-14, 11:54
... Except that apparently, the Lancer Cf hand guard is 5 oz heavier than the BCM KMR for the same length.
Which is absolutely absurd. A 12" Daniel Defense Lite III quad rail weighs just 13 oz and you get a heck of a lot more functionality out of it than the Lancer (ie... it has basically the same slim dimensions, two more sling QD points, anti-rotation tabs, a very nice lock-up system, and four 12" sections of rail).
jerrysimons
04-27-14, 12:07
I, for one, want nothing to do with metal handguards. They get hot from firing, get hot from the sun and get cold in the winter. I don't want the added cost and weight of adding plastic panels and I don't want to have to wear gloves every time I want to go out and shoot. The company that's going to get a wad of my hard earned money is the one that comes out with a line of slim, light weight, durable, affordable synthetic free float tubes.
If Mr. G says using the M-Lok will reduce cost to the consumer by $50 and prices his product accordingly, it doesn't matter if his claim is uniformly accepted or not
Well apparently there is more than one way to machine the keyholes/m-lok slots, involving different and single vs. multiple cutters. Surely Mr. G's statement is accurate according to the method he uses.
Polymer handguards have their place and are popular for a reason, with m-lok being a useful MOE update. But my point is let's not BS about what this release is. Magpul intends m-lok as the new attachment standard and for the industry to jump on the bandwagon--while insinuating the current viable standard of keymod is inferior. Well, fair enough, let's see some data head-to-head, and consider it on prime time terms: m-lok vs. keymod on metal rails.
By and large I think Magpul is just cashing in on the numerous people who irrationally disliked keymod for no material reason other than it wasn't launched by a huge popular marketing machine like Magpul Industries.
Hey, it's capitalism baby, but I don't have to like this move. Keymod works. Now we will have two competing "standards" and only half the accessory support for each.
MountainRaven
04-27-14, 12:28
You'll see Colts with M Lok by simple virtue of the MOE models later this year.
Everybody who uses MOE hand guards (effectively everybody except DD and KAC) will be using M-LOK.
If Colt makes, say, their 6940 with M-LOK instead of picatinny rails, that'll be very significant news.
Which is absolutely absurd. A 12" Daniel Defense Lite III quad rail weighs just 13 oz and you get a heck of a lot more functionality out of it than the Lancer (ie... it has basically the same slim dimensions, two more sling QD points, anti-rotation tabs, a very nice lock-up system, and four 12" sections of rail).
A Lancer LCR5 Round Rifle Length (12.5") Handguard with premum cooling slots and no rails weighs 9.4 oz with barrel nut. A Lancer LCH5 Rifle Length Handguard with Full Top Rail & barrel nut weighs 12.4 oz
http://store.lancer-systems.com/category/carbon_fiber_handguards/1
I, for one, want nothing to do with metal handguards. They get hot from firing, get hot from the sun and get cold in the winter. I don't want the added cost and weight of adding plastic panels and I don't want to have to wear gloves every time I want to go out and shoot. The company that's going to get a wad of my hard earned money is the one that comes out with a line of slim, light weight, durable, affordable synthetic free float tubes.
+1000.
Totally agree.
Geissele, Krebs, Noveske, LWRCI, Troy, Midwest industries, JP Enterprises, PWS, POF, Samson, Diamondback, Hodge Defense, CMMG, Gear Sector, IWC, Mega, Aero Precision, and about 20 others signed on with several dozen in the paperwork process.
o_0
Not that I wasn't already sold, Magpul, but damn! Can't wait. Would be nice to see LaRue on that list, he can cut prod costs/time and buy another plane. :P
Geissele, Krebs, Noveske, LWRCI, Troy, Midwest industries, JP Enterprises, PWS, POF, Samson, Diamondback, Hodge Defense, CMMG, Gear Sector, IWC, Mega, Aero Precision, and about 20 others signed on with several dozen in the paperwork process.
To bad BCM isn't on that list, the KMR is the single rail I'd be most interested to see it on.
A Lancer LCR5 Round Rifle Length (12.5") Handguard with premum cooling slots and no rails weighs 9.4 oz with barrel nut. A Lancer LCH5 Rifle Length Handguard with Full Top Rail & barrel nut weighs 12.4 oz
http://store.lancer-systems.com/category/carbon_fiber_handguards/1
Indeed, and I'd also mention that weight alone doesn't tell the whole story. Balance is at least equally important if not more so. Most of the Lancer's weight should be towards the rear, which will make the whole thing swing a lot easier.
Don't know if it's been posted yet but here's a link to the manufactures adopting M-LOK:
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/04/26/list-of-manufacturers-adopting-the-new-magpul-m-lok-system/
The Geissele MK8 M-LOK rail is more comfortable in the hand than the MK4/MK5 keymod version. The chamfer of the M-LOK system gives a nice and smooth surface for the hand to grab onto whereas the keymod version you can feel the sharp edges as your hand glides along the rail. One of the things that I was excited about was the design of the MK8 returning closer to the original MK4 Mod 0 design with the square relief cuts along the bottom instead of the pear shape. To me, it is aesthetically pleasing and the smaller holes (compared to the Mod 0) should do a good job of keeping your fingers off the barrel. The new M-LOK system should also allow for the rails to lose some weight as well.
I've been running the MK8 for a few days and me likey.
Both seem like good sysems. I am sure that they will be doing keymod in the future too.
I, for one, want nothing to do with metal handguards. They get hot from firing, get hot from the sun and get cold in the winter. For what it's worth. I did a class this weekend, and went through about 500 rounds in a very short time, and the BCM KMR was warm, but not hot to the touch. I could bare hand it easily. On a colder day it could be downright pleasant. :) The alum/mag and the ventilation worked very well.
Both are good systems, I don't blame Magpul for making rails for M-LOK. I am sure that they will be doing keymod in the future too.
For what it's worth. I did a class this weekend, and went through about 500 rounds in a very short time, and the BCM KMR was warm, but not hot to the touch. I could bare hand it easily. On a colder day it could be downright pleasant. :) The alum/mag and the ventilation worked very well.
What makes you think they will be doing keymod too?
ParallaxTactical.com
04-28-14, 18:22
As a mfg. of Keymod Rails, we can say absolutely the Keymod system is more time-intensive at least for us to mfg. The cutter that does the 100 degree undercut is tiny compared to our regular endmills. The process of undercutting each slot eats up the majority of the time on the machine.
As for M-LOK their requirements for flatness on the inside can be accomplished a little bit easier by using a more rigid cutter or a different extrusion design altogether.
As a mfg. of Keymod Rails, we can say absolutely the Keymod system is more time-intensive at least for us to mfg. The cutter that does the 100 degree undercut is tiny compared to our regular endmills. The process of undercutting each slot eats up the majority of the time on the machine.
As for M-LOK their requirements for flatness on the inside can be accomplished a little bit easier by using a more rigid cutter or a different extrusion design altogether.
Welcome to the board Parallax
When I first read about M-LOK on Soldier Systems, I was intrigued but didn't fully understand the concept until I was able to see it at the NRA show. That sealed the deal for me, M-LOK is obviously superior to KeyMod.
Ease of manufacture creates inexpensive products and the ability for more manufacturers to step into the game. I've heard some rumblings about expected MSRP on a few popular rail styles and I think you guys will be extremely impressed.
Magpul has shown a desire to partner and coach other manufacturers in a way that I haven't seen in this industry, and I've been privy to a partnership or two in the past.
I would wait until you have a chance to visualize this concept before praising/defending either of the modular attachment methods. I think you'll be impressed with M-LOK.
What makes you think they will be doing keymod too? There is money to be made, and they ain't dumb.
For all the reasons cited in this thread and in our FAQ, we have no plans to build any key mod products.
For all the reasons cited in this thread and in our FAQ, we have no plans to build any key mod products.
Can't imagine you would have.
Not sure if you can answer, but what is the minimum depth the MLOK shallow depth where the T-nuts lock into is? IIRC Keymod is a .060 before the chamfer. If MLOK rails can be made from the same extrusions, I figure the minimum depths are probably that or less? Curious because I've been considering a carbon project (not AR) that I had ruled keymod out of, but MLOK is interesting because it might be possible with simpler geometry.
M-LOK recommended total material thickness for the mounting surface is .080" to .125". It works with both slightly thinner and much thicker materials, but this range is the recommended standard.
Obscenejesster
04-29-14, 14:27
So those who design KeyMod rails have the ability to make them thinner than M-Lok?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
So those who design KeyMod rails have the ability to make them thinner than M-Lok?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
No. The min material thickness for keymod is .080", also.
M-LOK is only limited to .080" to accommodate some tolerance stacking. If you made it to nominal on all dimensions, .060" or .065" material thickness or so could work. By altering a few things here or there, you could mount it on .030" sheet metal if you wanted. .080" was a reasonable thickness and helps usability of the system, so we saw no real reason to try to accommodate thinner materials in the TDP.
So..... min mounting surface thickness of both systems, per the associated prints, is .080".
No. The min material thickness for keymod is .080", also.
M-LOK is only limited to .080" to accommodate some tolerance stacking. If you made it to nominal on all dimensions, .060" or .065" material thickness or so could work. By altering a few things here or there, you could mount it on .030" sheet metal if you wanted. .080" was a reasonable thickness and helps usability of the system, so we saw no real reason to try to accommodate thinner materials in the TDP.
So..... min mounting surface thickness of both systems, per the associated prints, is .080".
This. I was wrong about .060"
Certainly sounds like MLOK has been thought out quite a bit. I wish you guys all the best. It would be interesting to see some of your testing, I have assemblies that go on shakers (although much larger than gun parts). I'd also be interested to see the spec, and I know why you guys chose licensing over open source, but you have to know the spec will get out anyhow, might as well publish it.
We'll probably release some videos with clips of the testing footage at some point.
Is there a possibility of M-LOK rail panels?
Anything is possible, I suppose...but as usual we don't talk about products in development until a certain point nearing their release.
I'll let Duane talk specifics (or not), but generally speaking we are going to be extremely supportive of this system, and I doubt people will be disappointed with their options.
Edit, nevermind, reading is fundamental
As of today, there are 17 accessories in progress for M-LOK, some of which will release within weeks. Two separate types of rail panels meant to accommodate a variety of forend contours are included in that list. That's what I can share for now.
SomeOtherGuy
04-29-14, 22:07
Read through the whole PDF - this looks like a very well thought out system. I hate to see competing "open standards" against the existing Keymod system, but this looks better and cheaper...
karmapolice
04-29-14, 22:18
Yeah I am going to need on of G mans 9.5" DDC MK8 M-LOK rails and some M-LOK accessories from you guys, for free asap. I'm very excited about this system and tickled you guys made it and also made it open source.
Read through the whole PDF - this looks like a very well thought out system. I hate to see competing "open standards" against the existing Keymod system, but this looks better and cheaper...
I did too and came to the same conclusion. KeyMod started with great traction but already has some tough competition. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
Read through the whole PDF - this looks like a very well thought out system. I hate to see competing "open standards" against the existing Keymod system, but this looks better and cheaper...
It's like VHS vs Betamax all over again. Or for the younger folks, Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD.
I am sure that they will be doing keymod in the future too...There is money to be made, and they ain't dumb.
For all the reasons cited in this thread and in our FAQ, we have no plans to build any key mod products.
I was so wrong I should be living in the White House. :rolleyes:
The more I learn, the more I like the M Lok.
SPQR476,
Is it in the spec that MLOK is required to split two slots? Could a "2 space" attachment fit in filling an a single slot or is a "3 space" minimum required that spans two slots?
Thanks,
You can make "2-lug" accessories that fit entirely in a single slot or spanning 2, but only taking half of each, and still have 2 nuts securing it with full, solid lug recoil support in all four directions, whichever way you place it.
Several of the accessories that are coming from us will be short, 2 lug configurations.
You can make "2-lug" accessories that fit entirely in a single slot or spanning 2, but only taking half of each, and still have 2 nuts securing it with full, solid lug recoil support in all four directions, whichever way you place it.
... Wait, if you're spanning two over 1/2 of each with two nuts, what are you leveraging against to secure from sliding in the slot? Just the compression/pinch? So, 1/2 is just an option, loosening and sliding anywhere in that range would also work?
Several of the accessories that are coming from us will be short, 2 lug configurations.
Hmmm.... That's interesting. I'm not sure I've seen much in Keymod that only spans two segments. Plastic panels I guess.
Nope...since the lugs are on both sides of where each nut is, the recoil lugs work in both directions. So if you're inside a slot, the outside lugs act on the outside edges of the slot you're in. When you span 2 slots with a 2 lug accessory, the inside lugs act on the adjacent ends of the two slots. Still 100% supported against movement in all 4 directions. Even with a 2 lug accessory, no matter how you put it on the mounting surface, if it fits into the slots in any way, it's completely supported by recoil lugs.
The nuts themselves are only ever providing compression to keep the accessory in contact with the mounting surface. The nut and fastener are never stressed laterally.
If it sounds complicated, it's not. You can visibly see the light bulb come on in about 30 seconds after someone picks it up the first time.
Nope...since the lugs are on both sides of where each nut is, the recoil lugs work in both directions. So if you're inside a slot, the outside lugs act on the outside edges of the slot you're in. When you span 2 slots with a 2 lug accessory, the inside lugs act on the adjacent ends of the two slots. Still 100% supported against movement in all 4 directions. Even with a 2 lug accessory, no matter how you put it on the mounting surface, if it fits into the slots in any way, it's completely supported by recoil lugs.
The nuts themselves are only ever providing compression to keep the accessory in contact with the mounting surface. The nut and fastener are never stressed laterally.
If it sounds complicated, it's not. You can visibly see the light bulb come on in about 30 seconds after someone picks it up the first time.
Thanks, I get it. When spanning two, the space between is the front/rear lock. For some reason I was picturing an non-equal distance of spacing and lugs.
Good on you to come down off the mountain and explain the tablets to the little people - efforts like go a long way into relating to the community. Appreciated.
Maybe this has been answered but when will M Lock free float rails be on the market and who will be producing them? I was so close to buying keymod but this concept makes more sense to me.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Geissele, Samson, ALG, and Krebs (AK) had rails ready before NRA and showed them. There are many other major manufacturers with stuff in the works, but I won't speak for them until they are ready.
I had the opportunity to get an overview of the M-LOK system from one of Magpul's associates while at the NRA Expo. It is obviously a very simple system, and that, in my opinion is a huge value. It may be due to the fact that I am currently taking a graduate course in Lean systems engineering, but I think this system is very good. It is a standardized rectangle hole. Machine time costs way more than material so a simple mounting system that takes less time to make means more inexpensive products. Talking with the Geissele folks they said their 10" EMR should cost around $100 with the reduced machine time that the M-LOK slots take over the diamond/oval and mounting hole pattern they are currently using. Very good, except that I just got my EMR back from coating (Murphy at work). Having the same rail with a more user friendly mounting system (no backer plates) and numerous direct mount items in the works...all for ~15-25% less money, that's outstanding.
Did Geissele perhaps mention what lengths their M-LOK rails will be produced in?
HeliPilot,
They did not, but I didn't directly ask that question. Being they're the first M-LOK rail out of the gate, I'd project that they'll have a full line. That is my conjecture though.
Obscenejesster
05-01-14, 16:04
Does the M-Lok platform allow for quick detach accessories or is using a screw driver a must to attach accessories?
I really hope BCM hops on the M-Lok wagon.
However, with ESK on the BCM team, and the amount of ingenuity it took to come out with their KeyMod vert grip leads me to believe otherwise...
Obscenejesster
05-01-14, 18:46
I really hope BCM hops on the M-Lok wagon.
However, with ESK on the BCM team, and the amount of ingenuity it took to come out with their KeyMod vert grip leads me to believe otherwise...
If you were blown away by the QD Vert Grip, wait until you see the next Keymod QD accessory they are releasing soon.
ScatmanCrothers
05-01-14, 20:13
If you were blown away by the QD Vert Grip, wait until you see the next Keymod QD accessory they are releasing soon.
Which one are you referring to?
I really hope BCM hops on the M-Lok wagon.
However, with ESK on the BCM team, and the amount of ingenuity it took to come out with their KeyMod vert grip leads me to believe otherwise...
That is the neat thing about the M-LOK system. No ingenuity was needed to design the M-LOK vert grip.
M-LOK's simple and effective design equals lower cost and shorter time to market for accessories.
If you were blown away by the QD Vert Grip, wait until you see the next Keymod QD accessory they are releasing soon.
a small hint maybe?
That is the neat thing about the M-LOK system. No ingenuity was needed to design the M-LOK vert grip.
M-LOK's simple and effective design equals lower cost and shorter time to market for accessories.
Can't wait to see it.
I just hope that there will be an M-Lok rail capable of achieving or surpassing the KMR's weight and barrel nut attachment method.
Has Geissele been making M-LOK for awhile? Upon looking at the new Magpul's M-LOK backing piece I thought that it looks like the backing piece for Geissele's Surefire Scout light mounting kit. This may be true since M-LOK was first shown on the MK8 and that Scout mounting kit has been out for some time now. Maybe Geissele came up with M-LOK but didn't want to call it G-LOCK.
http://geissele.com/surefire-scout-light-mount-kit.html
M-LOK was developed by Magpul, and that is not an M-LOK mount (although it is awesome, I use one...)
Hopefully he has an M-LOK version in the works!
Obscenejesster
05-02-14, 10:47
Nobody has answered this question yet but is QD possible with M-Lok or will it always require a tool to attach and detach?
Nobody has answered this question yet but is QD possible with M-Lok or will it always require a tool to attach and detach?
I see no technical reason a thumb screw or wing nut would not work. But you probably won't see it because guns really aren't the place for thumbscrews and wingnuts. If you need something QD, the rail stays on and the QD mount attaches to that. I wouldn't expect to see keymod or MLOK accessories that attach without tools but I'm sure a QD system could be fashioned, I don't see the need though.
As there's only a 90* (if I understand correctly) turn required to tighten down m-lok, I'm pretty sure you could just put a lever on the screw head and lock it down that way. It wouldn't be low-profile though.
The interesting thing about m-lok and keymod is that, like direct thread-on accessory attachment rails, it requires perpendicular access to the mating surface in order to secure your accessory. Picatinny requires parallel access, allowing a large variety of QD-type mounts that aren't in the way of the accessory itself.
I'm sure someone with a mechanical engineering or design background can figure out a way to QD m-lok or keymod in parallel, but the only way I can think of doing it is with some kind of linear actuator.
I wouldn't expect to see keymod or MLOK accessories that attach without tools but I'm sure a QD system could be fashioned, I don't see the need though.
The BCM KM VG attaches without tools.
The BCM KM VG, attaches without tools.
Oh yea, I guess I'm still not seeing the need. Who pops on and off their foregrip all the time? I have an SPR I could run as a carbine, and I still don't want that. Whatever. I like shit on and locked down and I don't touch it for months, but I guess "operators" need "mission specific" gear and they need it RIGHT NOW! ;)
Nobody has answered this question yet but is QD possible with M-Lok or will it always require a tool to attach and detach?
Entirely possible to design something that works without tools, I suppose. I don't see a huge need for it, but that's just me. If the market wants it, there's room for someone to do it.
Obscenejesster
05-02-14, 11:56
So you guys don't see a huge need for a QD Bipod that attaches directly to the rail without the use of picatinny?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
A QD for M-LOK should be relatively simple to design. The M-LOK is a standardized rectangular hole. QD sling mount points are a standardized circular hole, and there are many companies who make items that fit those holes. An M-LOK QD would likely be more complex, heavy, and expensive than something using two holes, two screws and two nuts with a total cost of ~$5.00. If I had a machine shop I might be out there now right designing one. It certainly can be done.
So you guys don't see a huge need for a QD Bipod that attaches directly to the rail without the use of picatinny?
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
That's the one application that we've talked about where it makes sense. We are messing with some things related to that particular application.
jerrysimons
05-02-14, 16:31
That is the neat thing about the M-LOK system. No ingenuity was needed to design the M-LOK vert grip.
M-LOK's simple and effective design equals lower cost and shorter time to market for accessories.
Keymod is simple and effective...
The BCM keymod vert grip is also QD, anybody could have just put a recoil lug on a flat surface of a grip and drilled some holes for bolts and keymod backing nuts.
Keymod is simple and effective...
Then why is it more expensive and take longer to make? :(
jerrysimons
05-02-14, 17:55
Then why is it more expensive and take longer to make? :(
Have you ever USED a keymod rail?
DreadPirateMoyer
05-02-14, 18:04
Have you ever USED a keymod rail?
Have you ever manufactured one?
Have you ever manufactured one?
Have you? Sometimes I think this is the other site lately with all the bickering back and forth. What's going on here as of late?
Obscenejesster
05-02-14, 18:24
Unless you're manufacturing them then who really cares what is harder or takes more time to manufacture. I'm not going to pick one system over the other just because one is $50 cheaper. I'm going to pick what I think works better.
Have you ever USED a keymod rail?
Yes. I have a Noveske NSR on a 10.5
How does that effect my original question...?
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
I just wish I could get some bcm rail covers and the stubby vertical keymod grip. Never in stock.
Sometimes I think this is the other site lately with all the bickering back and forth. What's going on here as of late?
:agree:
agree
SeriousStudent
05-02-14, 21:49
.... Sometimes I think this is the other site lately with all the bickering back and forth. What's going on here as of late?
Very good question, and I'm wondering myself.
Gents, we have the top folks from Magpul graciously spending their free time answering questions about this gear. Think about how busy these folks are, with all they have going on right now.
So polite discussion is the order of the day, rather than bickering that honestly does not increase the knowledge base here. Personally, I'm tickled to death that these folks come here and offer information and insight. Let's help them continue that trend, shall we?
Thanks.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.