View Full Version : How many lumens do you really need for home defense? When is it too bright?
With the current state of flashlight technology reaching retina burning levels of brightness, I'm wondering where people stand on what level of brightness is too much? As a civilian my use for carbine mounted lights is strictly home defense and I personally like about 200 lumens for that application. Anything more than 200 and the light reflecting off the walls actually blinds me seriously effecting my night vision, in addition to drowning out my aimpoint. I recently purchased a surefire z2x rated at 325 lumens and it's so bright that I feel it's unusable for handgun use indoors. I've since reverted back to my original z2 with a malkoff M61L rated at 170 lumens which is about perfect. Bright enough to blind a person at room distances, and not so bright it kills my eyes. My HD carbine is fitted with a 200 lumen surefire scout m600 and it's perfect for my application as well.
With weapon lights reaching 500+ lumens now does anyone else think that's way overkill for most folks? I can see where 500 lumens might be useful in law enforcement or military applications, but for me I think the brightness ratings are getting a little out of hand. Am I the only person that thinks there's a problem with lights being too bright these days for home defense applications?
My home defense light is 125 lumens and I'm still concerned that it may be too much when waking up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night.
I am very comfortable with the 200-300 range. I even use a 200 lumen scout on my personal rifle, 300 lumen tlr-1 on my work rifle.
Voodoo_Man
04-24-14, 06:40
What exactly are you doing with your flashlight?
Are you searching your home? Doing room clears? Then yea, anything in the 200+ lumen area of LED white light is going to kill your night vision when you hit a white wall with it.
At work I use a streamlight stinger ds hl led (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BD9OKC6/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00BD9OKC6&linkCode=as2&tag=reviews01f3-20) rated at around 600-700 lumens. I use it outside, for carstops and the like, inside homes however, I carry a microstream (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A6KX4SE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00A6KX4SE&linkCode=as2&tag=reviews01f3-20).
I have had positive results with the TLR1s (my review) - http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2013/11/streamlight-tlr-1s-led-rail-mounted.html - while it is fairly bright if you know what you are doing you will have minimal white walling.
There is a tactical application to a high lumen flashlight mounted on a weapon system. My Stinger HL blinds people and hurts their eyes almost immediately inducing their hands to come up to stop the light or cause an unconscious squinting. Both are favorable results and should be considered.
think of lumens as volume.
low lumens can be made very bright if confined into a very narrow beam but it won't be useful for searching with no spill. however, when you try to spread that light, it becomes to dim.
a High lumen light, with the proper reflector can throw light over a very wide area but not be too bright.
it's how you employ the "amount" of light you have. personally, I think all the lumen upper limit talk is bogus. I want the brightest light available, given a good reflector.
I would rather see the discussion focus on beam pattern and spread, and how many lumens are required to fill that pattern...
Failure2Stop
04-24-14, 15:36
think of lumens as volume.
low lumens can be made very bright if confined into a very narrow beam but it won't be useful for searching with no spill. however, when you try to spread that light, it becomes to dim.
a High lumen light, with the proper reflector can throw light over a very wide area but not be too bright.
it's how you employ the "amount" of light you have. personally, I think all the lumen upper limit talk is bogus. I want the brightest light available, given a good reflector.
I would rather see the discussion focus on beam pattern and spread, and how many lumens are required to fill that pattern...
There is much wisdom in this post.
What he said above!
I've always been a bit baffled by the line about killing night vision when employing a light.
Hmmm, seems to me the night vision will take a hit anyway. I don't need to worry about night vision, when I have a light to use.
I used to use the original G2Z light which was around 80 or so lumens. Then I had the AZ2, which was a dual output of 150/35.
Now I carry two, a G2ZX at 320 lumens, and a P2ZX Fury at 500 lumens.
Like what was said above, it all depends on the volume of light being thrown, which brings the reflector into the equation.
I routinely use the 320 inside a close quarter area like a house, and never felt over lit. Same goes for the 500, when used in a more open area such as a large basement/room.
As for getting blinded by white walls...uh...don't directly shine at them. The same for mirrors in bathrooms etc. Its not that hard to avoid such things.
The more the light the better. I get asked often how bright a light should be for such uses. I tell folks get nothing less than 200 lumens, but again that depends on the volume of the output. In comparing Surefire lights, my suggestion is nothing less than 320.
Primary use of the light for me is clearing the inside of my home. With my 200 lumen scout my eyes do not take a noticeable hit when using an illuminate and move approach. With my z2x using a syringe technique my vision definitely takes a hit when the lights are off and I'm on the move. I don't just walk around with the light constantly on so my night vision is definitely important to me when shooting or clearing in the dark. Even illuminating my hallway, as in not directly pointing at the wall is borderline painful. Like I said, I know there's an application for the ultra bright lights such as law enforcement or military. I guess I'm in the minority of people who think there is such a thing as too bright.
Voodoo Man and ra2bach win it!
Light/lumen issues have been discussed many times before, and three interesting points come up...
1. Lumen count is like volume. How the beam is shaped is also a big factor in whether or not you have "too many" lumens.
2. While a certain lumen count and beam shape may be ideal for a certain scenario, it may be woefully inadequate or inefficient for another role. If you're not an LE or military long gun user, you may still find yourself in a scenario where you're stretching the limits of your indoors light. Limiting your lights based on lumens and planned use is like zeroing your long gun at 10 yards because "you only do entries".
3. We've had this discussion here and elsewhere before. That isn't to say, "do a search!", but every time a light comes out that boasts 100 lumens more than the comparable Surefire model or the older Surefire model, people immediately worry that they're going to melt their own face when using it with a firearm in their home. Yes, there's a training and tactic component to this, but also keep in mind that people were worried about the same thing when the "tactically blinding 120 lumen" P61 incandescent bulb was available.
Outlander Systems
04-25-14, 18:09
I'm an advocate of no limit for WMLs For admin tasks, I'd prefer no more than 150.
For weapon-mounted lights, 500 is a nice starting point. ****, if I could get a 1000-lumen light on my carbine, with good throw, and solid spill, I'd be in hog heaven.
I EDC daily with a WML, so I don't look at the light as being for night-stand/home invasion use only. I want the best combo of throw and spill possible. The Ultra series SF lights are outstanding GP weaponlights. If I didn't have a functioning light on my carbine now, Id slap a 600U on there faster than you can say Graham Combat. The a ultra-series lights exceed the maximum engagement distance of a handgun, and provide excellent spill for ID and SA.
Moose-Knuckle
04-25-14, 18:15
My bump in the night gun is a G17, when we moved into our new house I upgraded the white light that I run on it from a Streamlight TLR-1 (first generation) which IIRC is 80 lumens with a new TLR-1 HL which peaks at 630 lumens. I have ran the light doing room clearing drills, if you want to call it that, and walked the entire house in total darkness multiple times. I am able to identify things much faster and at greater distances with the TLR-1 HL than I could with the older model. I'll take the 630 lumens over the 80 any day.
Outlander Systems
04-25-14, 18:19
My bump in the night gun is a G17, when we moved into our new house I upgraded the white light that I run on it from a Streamlight TLR-1 (first generation) which IIRC is 80 lumens with a new TLR-1 HL which peaks at 630 lumens. I have ran the light doing room clearing drills, if you want to call it that, and walked the entire house in total darkness multiple times. I am able to identify things much faster and at greater distances with the TLR-1 HL than I could with the older model. I'll take the 630 lumens over the 80 any day.
80 lumens is perfect...
...for reading a map.
I once searched a dance studio using a 750 lumen Surefire Lawman. Even with mirrors on all the walls, none of us became disoriented or blinded. I have the 630 lumen TLR-1 on my duty pistols. My rifle has got a Malkoff upgrade on the Surefire M500 system and the older Surefire mount on my shotgun has a 500 lumen Fury attached. I overall think the upgrades in lumens in the past few years are absolutely great.
That said, you have a different mission and different eyes than I do. While I'd recommend experimenting a little more with the 325 lumen lights, you're the best judge of your lighting needs. If your weapons are strictly home defense, you're not going to need to illuminate a suspect across a darkened movie theatre or warehouse.
Of course, I'm old enough to have been impressed with that first rechargeable Streamlight. Good luck and be safe.
think of lumens as volume.
low lumens can be made very bright if confined into a very narrow beam but it won't be useful for searching with no spill. however, when you try to spread that light, it becomes to dim.
a High lumen light, with the proper reflector can throw light over a very wide area but not be too bright.
it's how you employ the "amount" of light you have. personally, I think all the lumen upper limit talk is bogus. I want the brightest light available, given a good reflector.
I would rather see the discussion focus on beam pattern and spread, and how many lumens are required to fill that pattern...
Amen. This is exactly why I can go to my local hardware store and buy a 700 lumen handheld for $40. Yeah it's 700 lumens and has a lot of spill but absolutely no throw, zero. You get what you pay for. There is much more to it than just lumen rating. Reflector design is extremely important but if the average Joe sees big numbers on the packaging, well it must be better.
-Jax
Between my Surefire mini scout at 110, the SF X300 and the 200 lumen Inforce APL I find that for me all the lights I own that are 200 lumens or less are perfect for inside my home.
I once searched a dance studio using a 750 lumen Surefire Lawman. Even with mirrors on all the walls, none of us became disoriented or blinded. I have the 630 lumen TLR-1 on my duty pistols. My rifle has got a Malkoff upgrade on the Surefire M500 system and the older Surefire mount on my shotgun has a 500 lumen Fury attached. I overall think the upgrades in lumens in the past few years are absolutely great.
That said, you have a different mission and different eyes than I do. While I'd recommend experimenting a little more with the 325 lumen lights, you're the best judge of your lighting needs. If your weapons are strictly home defense, you're not going to need to illuminate a suspect across a darkened movie theatre or warehouse.
Of course, I'm old enough to have been impressed with that first rechargeable Streamlight. Good luck and be safe.
a useful technique with these higher lumen lights is bouncing the light. aiming the light at the ceiling can flood the entire room well enough to see everything with surprising detail. you won't do that with a lesser light...
Apricotshot
05-13-14, 14:28
I have a 1K lumen Surefire PX3 (Pat Rogers addition) on my 12.5 inch gun. Works extremely well indoors and outdoors and lights up the night. Only gripe is that it gets HOT fast and battery life is short.
I have 2 fury's. a 500l attached to my Noveske and a PX3 like mentioned above. Both are great.
I also have a 750l rechargable (Cabelas Alaskan guide) that has a wider pattern that is good if one requires that.
I am very happy with all three, all have their use. I've not noticed the "blinding" that others talk about--- but then I am careful not to shine it in my face too.
Apricotshot
05-14-14, 06:16
I have 2 fury's. a 500l attached to my Noveske and a PX3 like mentioned above. Both are great.
I also have a 750l rechargable (Cabelas Alaskan guide) that has a wider pattern that is good if one requires that.
I am very happy with all three, all have their use. I've not noticed the "blinding" that others talk about--- but then I am careful not to shine it in my face too.
The only time I have had "back light" where it somewthat obscured my vision was when your light hits cars that you are using for cover or when there are mirrors in rooms. But the same seemed to happen back when I used lower lumen lights as well. So the trade off is worth it in my opinion.
My ideal light would create bright daylight conditions wherever I am, inside or out. Until then, I'll take as many lumens and candelas and as much spill and throw as I can get out of a two cell 123a light.
Moose-Knuckle
05-14-14, 14:57
I am very happy with all three, all have their use. I've not noticed the "blinding" that others talk about--- but then I am careful not to shine it in my face too.
The blinding effect that others have mentioned is not due to them looking into their light, it's when they activate their light indoors of their home and the light hits white walls with a high gloss paint and reflects the light back to the user. This can cause the user to squint, look away, and or be momentary blinded. None of which are advantageous to you if you find yourself in a gunfight.
Re-visiting this, I would honestly say that the user is more important than the light. For example, Craig Douglas prefers to clear homes with something like a 200 lumen light. He gets to play with any light he chooses for the most part, as his students bring tons of different lights and still picks a throwy 180-220 lumen job with a strobe function. It's wickedly effective. Frank Proctor runs his night courses with a 180 lumen Protac 1L. Pat Rogers likes Surefure Fury and 3-cell 1000 lumen lights. I really think it depends on the user, and how they plan on running the gun and playing the angles. Of course, if you have a 300 meter field, a 180 lumen light won't cut it, but 0-50 yards, it seems everyone has some very varying preferences, and many people at the tip of the spear apply them in different ways.
My bump in the night gun is a G17, when we moved into our new house I upgraded the white light that I run on it from a Streamlight TLR-1 (first generation) which IIRC is 80 lumens with a new TLR-1 HL which peaks at 630 lumens. I have ran the light doing room clearing drills, if you want to call it that, and walked the entire house in total darkness multiple times. I am able to identify things much faster and at greater distances with the TLR-1 HL than I could with the older model. I'll take the 630 lumens over the 80 any day.
Hey M-K, What is the color and sheen of paint on your walls? That will make a difference in how the reflective light id diffused.
I had a SF 951 WML and it is like 60 lumens. I was better off with the lights coming in from the street lamps and neighbors outdoor lights.
The TLR-1s with 300 lumen on my M&P9L is bright on my Kilim Beige Satin walls, but the Inforce WML @ 200 Lumens on my AR is fine.
Moose-Knuckle
04-02-15, 02:18
Hey M-K, What is the color and sheen of paint on your walls?
My walls are painted with K&M Professional (Kelly-Moore Paints) Interior Acrylic Satin Enamel in beige.
I have a Surefire P2X Fury on my carbine and X300 Ultras on my handguns.
They are excellent even in small rooms and I would not trade them for anything less. I'm totally comfortable with 'em in the dark and my old X300 seems weak and blue now.
I am not an LE/mil that need to search buildings. I have only found 1 situation where the X300U was to bright, and realistically I would probably never run into this situation in real life, but I was mock searching my house in total darkness just to see what it was like. Rooms, hallways, closets and bath rooms presented no problem. Then I went in the basement everything is going good, then I opened my basement door leading out to a casement well stairwell (not a walk out) when I opened the door the light hit the back cinder block wall covered with a light colored skim coat/stucco. I was blinded and could not see anything for 10 seconds, then I could see but my vision had the flash bulb effect.
Since that time I tried it by opening the door from the side and shined the light at various angles until I found the optimum angle.
Like I said I don't really se a situation where I would exit my home looking for someone, but it's now nice to know it can be done.
So was the light to bright or was it a matter of how to properly use it? It is very nice to have X300U when outside like taking the dog out, going to the shed..... There is a noticeable difference between the 300 and 300U.
I can remember when my original Surefire 6P was the brightest thing I have ever seen. FWIW I now tend to err on the side of brighter is better for a WML. For EDC I like the abilty to dial it up or dow depending on the situation.
...Like I said I don't really see a situation where I would exit my home looking for someone...
Not some*one*, but I left my house just last night looking for the %#&$ feral cat that was yowling at 2AM for the third time this week.
The SOB shut up (and probably hightailed it) when I opened the door; otherwise he'd have seen a bright flash of light, another bright flash, then a whole lot of dark.
I use a variable flashlight that has a 300 and 100 (IIRC) lumen and strobe. I leave it on the low light setting so it does not blind me when I wake up in the night.
Moose-Knuckle
04-13-15, 23:22
Not some*one*, but I left my house just last night looking for the %#&$ feral cat that was yowling at 2AM for the third time this week.
The SOB shut up (and probably hightailed it) when I opened the door; otherwise he'd have seen a bright flash of light, another bright flash, then a whole lot of dark.
:lol:
patriot_man
04-15-15, 03:38
I read a few days ago something about washing out your target with high lumen - narrow hot spot white light i.e. facial recognition. Any experiences or thoughts?
500 lumens inside had been great - especially if you need to illuminate a large room with vaulted ceilings, staircases, etc. You just have to make sure you use light discipline with one that bright.
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