View Full Version : Texas DPS Suspends Use of S&W M&P Pistols?
Anybody know any details about this? I haven't had an issue with mine, I am not at the 3000rd. mark yet, but I know there are members who are way past that point.
Bad Batch?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/22/texas-dps-suspends-sw-mp-pistols/ - 4 days ago
"The Texas Department of Public Safety stopped issuing and training with the recently acquired M&P9 pistols from Smith & Wesson.
Texas DPS picked up 120 of the M&P9 pistols with the intent of issuing them to the current recruit class that began training in January. However, the Texas Tribune reported that feeding and ejection issues, combined with “slight movement” in the guns caused agency to pull the weapons and issue older SIG P226 pistols.
The Texas Tribune does not explain the slight movement other than to say is was measured at less than 10 microns (0.01mm) and could affect accuracy. The paper does say the movement developed after the firing of about 3,000 rounds.
It does not appear that the Texas DPS released any quantitative data on the number of malfunctions experienced, nor if the problems were with only specific guns or with a certain kind of ammunition."
While I am aware of this story, I don't have any info regarding the failures. I'll be watching this thread though as an M&P has been on my list of firearms to consider purchasing. With so many favorable user experiences I have to think this is an isolated incident.
I do want to know more about this "slight movement", that terminology is painfully vague. I want to know what part or parts interface is experiencing this "movement" and their methods for taking such precise measurements.
I would suspect they meant "sight" movement rather than "slight".
"feeding and ejection issues"
Ok I know it's a notoriously reliable M&P, but you still have to clean them now and then. :)
Seriously though, I wonder if they just wore out the guide rod springs?
I would suspect they meant "sight" movement rather than "slight".
I do believe you're correct. That definitely sounds like a journalist error. I can't imagine what other "slight" movement would develop after 3000 rounds fired... LOL... 10 microns of drift on your front or rear sight would definitely affect accuracy. Maybe someone forgot to loctite something at the factory.
Sorry if I offend, but S&W should stick to revolvers. The last S&W auto I liked was the 6906.
Must be something in the water. The Pennsylvania State Police has just recently suspended the use of their Glock 21s. The Troopers are authorized to carry whatever they want until they transition to another handgun.
Must be something in the water. The Pennsylvania State Police has just recently suspended the use of their Glock 21s. The Troopers are authorized to carry whatever they want until they transition to another handgun.
I bet a lot of Pennsylvania police are happy as hell.
I bet a lot of Pennsylvania police are happy as hell.
Is anyone happy with thier new guns? Good lord
Must be something in the water. The Pennsylvania State Police has just recently suspended the use of their Glock 21s. The Troopers are authorized to carry whatever they want until they transition to another handgun.
They did not suspend the use of the Glock 21, however they are allowing the troopers to choose another firearm of their own for duty use until the malfunction related issues until they are resolved. This came from a good authority. In my opinion Glock was always at it's best in 9mm.
don't glock sights straight up fall out under heavy use?
don't glock sights straight up fall out under heavy use?
My G30 fell from my weight bench (2' up, maybe) onto a carpeted floor by accident once, and the rear site got knocked almost all the way out.
I also wouldn't trust them to do very many one handed slide manipulations.
don't glock sights straight up fall out under heavy use?
The factory ones, if left as they come out of the box, probably do.
I was able to acquire a G22 that had been used for police duty. The front night sight was staked and the rear sight appeared to have been Loctited. The tritium was very dim so it was time for new sights. It wasn't too hard to take them off because I have the right tools for changing sights, but they would have withstood considerable knocking around before loosening. Some things like this need to be squared a way by the department armorers; in this case, they were.
They did not suspend the use of the Glock 21, however they are allowing the troopers to choose another firearm of their own for duty use until the malfunction related issues until they are resolved. This came from a good authority. In my opinion Glock was always at it's best in 9mm.
You're correct in that they're not "disallowing" the use of the G21, but they're not resolving anything with Glock either. They tried to fix the issue, and it continued to persist. The PSP is switching to either an M&P or SIG. That is from my PSP buddy who I shoot with at my house on a regular basis. He's a gun guy, too, so he has more of an interest in this than the non-gun people he works with.
I personally have a hard time believing that the issues are as widespread as they're making it out to be. He's never had a problem with the 21 in his hands, and neither have I.
0.01 mm is what they're worried about? That's 0.0004 inches (a piece of regular printer paper is about 0.003" ) which is hardly anything.
They had a fair amount of issues with the .45 GAP and they went back to the same well for more. Glock has had a fair amount of issues with both their .40's and .45's in the past. I have a Gen 2 17 and 19 both dating from 1989 and 1990 and I've had BTF from both. Other than that they are issue free. I'm not knocking the Glock or the M&P but my opinion is that Glock didn't sort out problems enough before guns went to market i.e. just scale it up our down it's a Glock and both platforms are suffering from the bottom line $. It also looks like neither manufacture wants to admit they put out pistols with problems.
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Word is the PSP issues were very widespread. Also, the guns either worked or didn't with the issues either there from the outset or the guns functioned fine.
0.01 mm is what they're worried about? That's 0.0004 inches (a piece of regular printer paper is about 0.003" ) which is hardly anything.
I suspect that there is a miscommunication somewhere. If the complaint is genuine, the guy doing the measuring might not be properly assessing the problem or is measuring it in the wrong place. If the user is actually seeing things move at arms length, its probably on the order of .010 inches or more. If I were to speculate, I'd say its slide moving laterally on the frame.
Don't count on the journalist to sort this out. Error analysis is not normally a reporter's strong suit. -Not slamming reporters, its not part of their curricula.
Long live the DA/SA!
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Outdated info and already covered on the forum. DPS is still taking guns from S&W and all is well.
C4
So their worried about .01mm, but not about new recruits forgetting to decock before holstering, having to learn two trigger methods, and the lefty shooters having to deal with a non ambidextrous design of a gun?I can think of numerous instances where the Sig might put an officer or those surrounding him in possible danger. Ok, but seems like there's more to this story.
So their worried about .01mm, but not about new recruits forgetting to decock before holstering, having to learn two trigger methods, and the lefty shooters having to deal with a non ambidextrous design of a gun?I can think of numerous instances where the Sig might put an officer or those surrounding him in possible danger. Ok, but seems like there's more to this story.
They don't have to learn it, they've been using Sigs forever.
They were using the new issued M&P on new recruits. So these officers and any in the future would have to learn a Sig manual of arms.
They were using the new issued M&P on new recruits. So these officers and any in the future would have to learn a Sig manual of arms.
Good for them. Their junky pistols are just to fight their way back to their Bushmasters!
Good for them. Their junky pistols are just to fight their way back to their Bushmasters!
Ha! I hear ya. I work with a few that base their weapons systems off of DPS. Needless to say they never train with them because ".357Sig ammo is just too expensive" and they"don't want to scratch up there $800 Sig"! I just shake my head and walk away.
Trained with a few DPS agents from their SWAT team last week and they had a variety of different pistols (1911, Glock, Sig, M&P). Due to the different platforms I can only assume they, or at least the team members have a choice or approved list of platforms they're allowed to carry.
I suspect that there is a miscommunication somewhere. If the complaint is genuine, the guy doing the measuring might not be properly assessing the problem or is measuring it in the wrong place. If the user is actually seeing things move at arms length, its probably on the order of .010 inches or more. If I were to speculate, I'd say its slide moving laterally on the frame.
Don't count on the journalist to sort this out. Error analysis is not normally a reporter's strong suit. -Not slamming reporters, its not part of their curricula.
I understand that journalists make mistakes when it comes to technical things, it's not their job to check measurements.
But the story says "10 microns or 0.01 mm" which tells me that they got the numbers right ... and we'll just have to assume that someone is blowing >0.0004" way out of proportion. I'd say that's actually a pretty tight fit.
My agency has been issuing the M&P45 for 3 years now and lots of +P ammo downrange, very, very few issues, nothing systemic. Transitioned from Sig P220's and scores went up and broke guns went down. That being said I carried a 220 for 13 years and was happy with it. Like the M&P45 more though, numerous high round count classes and those 14 rounders are awesome. Recently visited the Firearms Training Unit of a large Fed agency and they commented off the record a M&P 9mm is very near in their future moving from the Glock 40.
Trained with a few DPS agents from their SWAT team last week and they had a variety of different pistols (1911, Glock, Sig, M&P). Due to the different platforms I can only assume they, or at least the team members have a choice or approved list of platforms they're allowed to carry.
I believe TX DPS is issuing the SIG Tac Ops 1911 .45 acp for SWAT. Some TX DPS elements have individual latitude in selecting duty pistols including the Rangers, Aviation and SWAT. I believe all of these are part of DPS's Special Operations Group. The DPS SOG Guys I've worked with have mostly been carrying 1911's and a few 2011's.
For most, current issue is the SIG P-226R DAK on .357 SIG, they also issue the SIG P-239 in .357 SIG for some plain clothes investigators. I believe the P-239's are also DAK.
DPS transitioned from revolvers to the SIG P-220 .45 and P-226 9mm, then to TDA SIG P-226's in .357 SIG. Not sure if they are all DAK now or a mix.
So their worried about .01mm, but not about new recruits forgetting to decock before holstering, having to learn two trigger methods, and the lefty shooters having to deal with a non ambidextrous design of a gun?I can think of numerous instances where the Sig might put an officer or those surrounding him in possible danger. Ok, but seems like there's more to this story.
Running a TDA ( DA/SA) gun is a skill which can be learned like any other, the trigger break points on on both the DA and the SA are in almost the same place on most TDA guns. It just takes a little work.
DPS runs DAK SIGS, so decocking isn't an issue. IME, without the decocking lever the SIG DAK is very lefty friendly. Though the mag release is reversible, running a mag release with the trigger finger instead of the thumb is actually very slick once you get used to it.
However, I agree there is more to the story of the DPS switch to the 9mm M&P.
My agency has been issuing the M&P45 for 3 years now and lots of +P ammo downrange, very, very few issues, nothing systemic. Transitioned from Sig P220's and scores went up and broke guns went down. That being said I carried a 220 for 13 years and was happy with it. Like the M&P45 more though, numerous high round count classes and those 14 rounders are awesome. Recently visited the Firearms Training Unit of a large Fed agency and they commented off the record a M&P 9mm is very near in their future moving from the Glock 40.
The M&P 40's and 45's have been good to go. Locally, Austin PD has been running M&P40's for a few years now and San Antonio PD just transitioned from the Glock 22 within the past year. Both agencies have been very happy with the M&P 40. The M&P 40 cal passed the ATF handgun testing a few years ago. Though ATF wound up buying Gen 4 22's and 27's, I believe other Fed agencies can buy M&P's off the ATF contract. There was a bad batch of M&P 45 mag springs a while back but otherwise they have been good to go.
Any new info on this situation?
I ask because I was told on Thursday that the contract is dead in the water. Too many rumors though make me seek info elsewhere.
Any new info on this situation?
I ask because I was told on Thursday that the contract is dead in the water. Too many rumors though make me seek info elsewhere.
To my knowledge, the contract is a go. If it was actually "DEAD" you would have seen a press release by DPS by now I think.
C4
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