View Full Version : .308 for Grizzly?
Anyone watch the reality show Life Below Zero? I caught an episode the other day and chick is hunting Grizzly on her property with what looks like a .308 AR. That surprised me. I had thought .308 was considered well under powered for such a big dangerous animal. Obviously, shot placement is everything, but I thought larger caliber bolt guns were the norm. It's possible her AR was shooting something larger than .308, but brief show of the ammo and gun lead me to think .308. Is .308 for grizzly more common than I thought? I'm no hunter.
Here's the hunting moment:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/life-below-zero/videos/the-war-is-not-over/
Better than a .380 :sarcastic:
Better than a .380 :sarcastic:
Friends don't let friends carry .380, but that's another topic. :cool:
Normally I would'nt even think about a 308 for Grizzly. Minimum I would go is a 300 Win Mag and that is with the right ammunition. Preferably a 375 H&H. However this is probably and interior grizzly and they are a lot smaller than the typical Kodiak Brown Bear. Interior grizzlies usually average 600-800 lbs. Kodiaks can be twice that size. Here in NC people shoot black bears in the 600lb range with 270's and 308's all the time.
Normally I would'nt even think about a 308 for Grizzly. Minimum I would go is a 300 Win Mag and that is with the right ammunition. Preferably a 375 H&H. However this is probably and interior grizzly and they are a lot smaller than the typical Kodiak Brown Bear. Interior grizzlies usually average 600-800 lbs. Kodiaks can be twice that size. Here in NC people shoot black bears in the 600lb range with 270's and 308's all the time.
Watching that show (see link above), did not look like a large Grizzly, probably in the 600-800lbs range you mention, but .308 seems under powered for such a large animal that can turn and run your ass down at speed. At least she has the option of fast follow up shots using the AR, but just seemed an unusual (ill advised?) choice of caliber and platform for her situation.
A good deep penetrating bullet like a Barnes X would work. Not that it would be a choice I would use.
From what I've been told by lion and bear hunters is the big rounds are more for stopping a charge than a necessity to kill the game.
Looks like your run of the mill fakeass reality tv (aka garbage).
Keep in mind that it could've been a 338 federal, which at the muzzle is only a couple hundred lb/ft behind the .300 win mag in energy.
platoonDaddy
04-29-14, 15:19
Friend worked for USFWS in Alaska and his goto firearm was a .338 Win Mag. He also carried a .44 mag revolver in a shoulder holster and claimed that it would take out a griz|brown.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2013/05/which-rifle-bring-alaska
Failure2Stop
04-29-14, 15:58
He also carried a .44 mag revolver in a shoulder holster and claimed that it would take out a griz|brown.
This always kind of made me chortle.
Need a .338, because .308 isn't enough, but a .44 pistol is ok.
Pretty sure that .44 is outclassed by just about any .308.
Seems to me that the only acceptable backup to a .338 would be another .338 by the initial logic.
black22rifle
04-29-14, 16:16
I have never hunted before but I doubt a grizzly would just shrug off a .308.
platoonDaddy
04-29-14, 16:57
This always kind of made me chortle.
Need a .338, because .308 isn't enough, but a .44 pistol is ok.
Pretty sure that .44 is outclassed by just about any .308.
Seems to me that the only acceptable backup to a .338 would be another .338 by the initial logic.
Never stated a .308 isn't enough, only reported what my friend carried in the bush while working for USFWS.
This always kind of made me chortle.
Need a .338, because .308 isn't enough, but a .44 pistol is ok.
Pretty sure that .44 is outclassed by just about any .308.
Seems to me that the only acceptable backup to a .338 would be another .338 by the initial logic.
People often make the mistake of thinking what a well placed shot does as equal to panic dumping rnds into 1000lbs worth of bear (or other large aggressive animal) charging at you intent in ripping you in half. This seems to be a similar mindset to the .22 will kill people as well as 5.56 type discussions. The effects of a well placed shot at the time and place of your choosing being very different than it not being either and now on the defense. That was my thought for the OP, no surprise a well placed .308 can take a grizzly down, but should the murphy factor show up and said bear is now angry, wounded, and headed your way at speed (and people underestimate how fast they are) that .308 may be low low end of adequate is my understanding.
So, you're .338 if FUBAR (for what ever reason) and bear charges, and you panic dump .44 into the animal. I think any experienced big game hunter who's seen what they can do would say that's likely going to end badly and luck best be on your side. Is there really any handgun rnd that can be considered a reliable "Grizzly stopper"?
I'm no expert on this, but I'd view the .44 for stopping a charging grizzly bear approx as effective as a .380 on a large angry man; better than nothing, last ditch, hope your luck holds, pucker factor of 10.
MountainRaven
04-29-14, 19:21
I believe that studies have been done finding that the most successful survivors of bear attacks who were armed were armed (if a handgun) with a 357 Magnum or (if a long gun) a 12-gauge shotgun. Not that those would be my choices, but those are what they are.
In a handgun, a 44 Mag should work well enough.
IMHO, the biggest problem with using a 308 is the lack of appropriate bullets and ammunition for the task - although I believe there are some 308-diameter copper solids that could work adequately. I would much rather have a 375 Ruger/H&H or a 45-70 (a Winchester Mod 70 in 458 Win Mag reamed out to 458 Lott is something I'd really like, if I were a reloader). If I'm stuck with an auto-loaded, I'd have to choose 338 Federal. Or I'd reload those .308-diameter copper solids for 308 Win.
I don't see how a .338 Federal would be inadequate for the task at all, and for me at least I prefer autoloaders because that's what I shoot more than bolt guns, MUCH MUCH more in fact so I'd be more familiar with it thus probably more effective under stress. Since we're on the subject, is there yet or should there be something in .308 case size range that's a straight wall to be like the .50 Beowulf and .458 SOCOM are in the 5.56 case length, to step up the AR10/SR25 platform to .45-70 level or beyond for precisely that kind of application? Or would that be too hot for a gas gun to handle?
Hello Will,
There are a few AK members on the forum, so hopefully they will chime-in. I am a hunter and have shot many animals (no bears) and noted the importance of shot placement, particularly with the first round.
In my own opinion, I believe that a Reliable self-loader AR, FAL, etc. could be a viable self-defense arm against bears, especially, with FMJ rounds.
From reading Peter Capstick's work the most important criteria for cartridges used against dangerous animals is penetration. The majority of .308 FMJ rounds penetrate quite well.
I believe my personal choice would be a 12 Gauge Shotgun with 3 inch magnum slugs. When I go to Alaska Salmon fishing that is what I am taking.
p.s. I have not hunted bears nor do I plan to do so. On the other National Geographic show, one of the native members kills a grizzly with a .223 AR at close range. And the Wildlife Troopers on the Alaska State Troopers show carry shotguns in the bush.
If I were in big bear country up in Alaska I'd feel very safe carrying my Marlin 45-70 with Garrett or Buffalo Bore hard cast ammunition. As far as a hand gun is concerned I have a Freedom Arms 454 Casull that would be on my side also. Either one would easily be enough.
Hello Will,
There are a few AK members on the forum, so hopefully they will chime-in. I am a hunter and have shot many animals (no bears) and noted the importance of shot placement, particularly with the first round.
In my own opinion, I believe that a Reliable self-loader AR, FAL, etc. could be a viable self-defense arm against bears, especially, with FMJ rounds.
From reading Peter Capstick's work the most important criteria for cartridges used against dangerous animals is penetration. The majority of .308 FMJ rounds penetrate quite well.
I believe my personal choice would be a 12 Gauge Shotgun with 3 inch magnum slugs. When I go to Alaska Salmon fishing that is what I am taking.
p.s. I have not hunted bears nor do I plan to do so. On the other National Geographic show, one of the native members kills a grizzly with a .223 AR at close range. And the Wildlife Troopers on the Alaska State Troopers show carry shotguns in the bush.
Gun was an AR platform. You can see it in the vid I posted above if interested. Looks like a .308 AR to me, but not 100% sure on that.
montanadave
04-30-14, 09:18
Bottom line, you can kill a bear with a rock.
It's all a function of how motivated you are. And how motivated the bear is.*
*Anecdotal evidence suggests grizzly bears are often highly motivated.
I have a 308 AR and often wonder how it would fare against various large critters. The fact that it is semi-auto, allowing rapid follow-up shots -- 19 of them in most cases -- would stack the odds against the big bears. However, if one of those big'uns is able to counter-attack and manages to get close, the human needs to be proficient and have nerves of steel.
Everything is harder to stop once you have hurt it and made it mad...people included sometimes. The same 300 win mag that drops a grizzly dead with the first well placed shot, may be Very inadequate when it comes to stopping the charging/wounded bear quickly.
My best friend at boot camp was from Kodiak Island. He said the Brownies only ate photographers.:)
Humans can be tough enough to stop when they have an adrenalin dump and have shucked aside their fear. The thick, sloped skull of the bear and its monstrous speed/strength make it truly terrifying in a state of rage. Quickly incapacitating these beasts presents a tricky problem when seconds count.
Failure2Stop
04-30-14, 16:36
Never stated a .308 isn't enough, only reported what my friend carried in the bush while working for USFWS.
My reply was not at all directed at you personally, simply the sentiment of the report.
My light weight sheep rifle is .308. Its a pretty good shooter with 165gr Accubonds. However, had a close up encounter with a curious, but friendly, brown bear. After that I "upgraded" to a light weight .338WM. Run 225gr Accubonds and it makes me "feel better" in brown bear country.. ;) A lot of us up here run G20s as a backup with 200gr or 230gr DT hardcast bullets.
Gun was an AR platform. You can see it in the vid I posted above if interested. Looks like a .308 AR to me, but not 100% sure on that.
Haha, Will. AK = Alaska ;)
Haha, Will. AK = Alaska ;)
Doh! :dance3::dance3:
Guys carry a .44 mag because, when being mauled by a Kodiak, one is often not able to suck start a long rifle.
platoonDaddy
05-01-14, 04:42
When I hunt Elk, I carry a G21 chambered in .460 Rowland in a shoulder holster. It hasn't happened to me (thank god), but when one is gutting an elk the long rifle isn't near and for sure you are in harms way.
My USFWS friend, is betting she was using a .223. Checking with biologist in that area to confirm.
.
...had a close up encounter with a curious, but friendly, brown bear...
Friendly, as in, "Hi buddy, you smell good, I might want to eat you"?
ShortytheFirefighter
05-01-14, 14:31
Something along these lines with hardcast rounds would be what I'd be hauling in the backcountry if I thought bears would be an issue:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/1895SBL.asp
Older document, from '83, but there has been some official thought put forth as to what exactly has the best chance of stopping a grizz attack.
USFS Study (http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf)
QuickStrike
05-01-14, 17:50
A 308 in a semi maybe. In a bolt, hell no.
Only an african caliber that can penetrate a bear from end to end would make me feel comfy around grizzlies and such to be honest...
Older document, from '83, but there has been some official thought put forth as to what exactly has the best chance of stopping a grizz attack.
USFS Study (http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf)
I have read that before, but forgot all about it. No doubt there's be some changes with modern designs of projectiles, but bears and physics have not changes one bit since that was written. Similar to the FBI "Wounding Factors" doc, a good solid read for what's essential to the topic. They seemed to conclude minimum was a 30-06, but other choices are better if you can handle the recoil. Best line in the report for me:
"The most important shot is the first
one. If not properly placed, it may also
be the last shot fired."
I will say their .44 mag as back up and .308 as primary (though clearly not recommended by this report as primary) performed better than I expected.
Failure2Stop
05-01-14, 20:39
Guys carry a .44 mag because, when being mauled by a Kodiak, one is often not able to suck start a long rifle.
This I buy.
Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
05-01-14, 21:14
It's unfortunate that Ruger has discontinued the M77 Alaskans. And the Win Mod 70 Alaskans have 25" tubes while the Safari Expresses have 24" barrels. CZ's rifles also have 25" barrels.
Makes me want to get a Tanker Garand as an alternative, although it seems one wouldn't be ready to ship until the bears are asleep.
Friendly, as in, "Hi buddy, you smell good, I might want to eat you"?
Took a nap and woke up to a strange noise. Had grizzly cub less than 3 feet sniffing the air and looking at me. Cutest dang thing and then the terror of where is momma hit me.. Slowly looked around got up and backed the heck out of there. Never did see mama.. BUT the what if sure makes ya think....
Popped over a small ridge once and there was one not more than 30 yards away sitting on his butt eating berries. Saw another from about 100 yards away just pulverize the ground going crazy after a ground squirrel.
Figured I'd seen enough of them that the better prepared I could be the better...
SilverBullet432
05-02-14, 01:42
Crazy, I was just watching that episode on tv and thought the same. Has to be an ar10. Follow up shots will be a must!
Took a nap and woke up to a strange noise. Had grizzly cub less than 3 feet sniffing the air and looking at me. Cutest dang thing and then the terror of where is momma hit me.. Slowly looked around got up and backed the heck out of there. Never did see mama.. BUT the what if sure makes ya think....
Popped over a small ridge once and there was one not more than 30 yards away sitting on his butt eating berries. Saw another from about 100 yards away just pulverize the ground going crazy after a ground squirrel.
Figured I'd seen enough of them that the better prepared I could be the better...
Sounds like a thrilling encounter! I have yet to see a single bear in the wild. Closest I've come is tracks.
Anyone watch the reality show Life Below Zero? I caught an episode the other day and chick is hunting Grizzly on her property with what looks like a .308 AR. That surprised me. I had thought .308 was considered well under powered for such a big dangerous animal. Obviously, shot placement is everything, but I thought larger caliber bolt guns were the norm. It's possible her AR was shooting something larger than .308, but brief show of the ammo and gun lead me to think .308. Is .308 for grizzly more common than I thought? I'm no hunter.
Here's the hunting moment:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/life-below-zero/videos/the-war-is-not-over/
#1 hundreds of grizzly bears and polar bears have been killed with .223's in AR-15's all over Alaska. It's a pretty damn common round used in most villages. It sure looks like her's is a .308, though.
#2 .308 with the right bullet will kill bears, especially those that don't know you are there. I know one of our members here on M4C once killed a top 10 grizzly in the world and it was shot with either a 30-06 or .308 (can't recall which now). In the real world, there isn't much difference in these cartridges. I have purposely hunted grizzlies in my area with .270's, 30-06's and .308's and never felt under gunned. Inland grizzlies can be big, but there aren't nearly as big as their coastal counterparts.
I can't watch that show at all. That lady is a big part of it. She's comes off as an over emotional twit.
I can't watch that show at all. That lady is a big part of it. She's comes off as an over emotional twit.
That might just be the understatement of the Century! I saw that episode while reading this thread the other night. Took her two shots to put it down and that was definitely a .308 AR. Shot placement and bullet selection is what will rule the day. I don't think I'd venture after any bear with only an AR15, pretty ballsy in my estimation.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.