Bowie/Burwell M&P work

[SeaSoldier]

Can someone with experience with both trigger jobs give their opinion. Certainly not trying to start a flame, but I'm unsure as to which smith to send my pistols. What I'm after is a lighter pull and shorter reset. I would prefer at least as much reset power as stock, harder would be better. Leed times are not a factor. After shooting my pistols I see why a trigger job is desirable after all.

[Leviathan]

Having used both gunsmiths, and very pleased with both (quality, price, workmanship) I prefer Bowie's trigger job. The break feels cleaner to me. The trigger take up is smooth and the break is very, very clean. I don't think that you will go wrong with either....just my two cents.

[UPSguy]

I think there is something else very important to consider in your choice, one comes from a gamer background and one builds his guns to go into harms way.

[NCPatrolAR]

I think there is something else very important to consider in your choice, one comes from a gamer background and one builds his guns to go into harms way.

How about an apple to apple comparison if you are going to do one.

I've shot guns that have been worked on by both of the mentioned smiths and prefer Burwell's. The Bowie trigger I tried felt a bit heavier to me and not as crisp as the Burwell jobs I've tried.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Another vote for Bowie's work. As was pointed out, he builds guns for work and not play. That, combined with seeing a Burwell job shit the sheets in a Vickers class recently, makes it an easy choice.

I just got my Bowie M&P back last week with the "L" trigger job and it's excellent: crisp break, little overtravel and excellent reset feeling.

[ToddG]

I don't quite get the "gamer vs. tactician" thing when it comes to action work. Once you make the decision to compromise a service-grade pistol by tuning the action, you've already stepped out of the "pure tactician" model because you're chasing a level of performance which (1) few people can deliver on demand and (2) will almost certainly not be the deciding factor in a fight.

More to the point, I think quite a few people here would gladly let gotM4 work on their ARs, and to the best of my knowledge he has never single-handedly slaughtered a herd of ninja jihadists. I let gotM4 work on my guns, and recommend him to others, because he's really good at it.

Comparing one gun done by Guy #1 and one gun done by Guy #2 is meaningless anyway. Some action work comes out spectacularly, others is just "good." Much of that is beyond the control of the 'smith and has as much to do with parts tolerances and initial manufacturing issues. And different people like different traits in a trigger pull, too. So while one poster might say he liked Guy #1's trigger better, another might say he liked Guy #2's better. :confused:

Having said all that, Bowie is a known quantity here at M4C, is recommended by many of the IPs, etc. Exactly what are you seeking in looking elsewhere?

[SeaSoldier]

I guess I'll send one to each smith. Then I'll know where to send my future Pro model. Thanks for all the input, again no flames please as that was not my intention.

[nickdrak]

I have one of each in front of me as I am typing this. While the Bowie #5 "S" trigger job seems to have a slightly crisper trigger break, the #5 Burwell trigger job has a sharper/more positive reset. They are both very sweet!

The only Burwell trigger jobs that I have heard of fail have been competition triggers set at about 3-3.5lbs. Dan Burwell clearly states on his site that he does not recommend this modification for a duty or carry gun.

The only thing that would make me choose Burwell over Bowie at this point is the turn-around time. Burwell should have your M&P back in your hands in about 2-weeks. Bowie has a much longer wait time. Last I heard it was around 2-3 months.

[NCPatrolAR]

It all boils down to personal opinion and to a degree, internet popularity. I have 3 guns (all carry weapons) that have been done by Burwell (MP9, MP40, MP45). I've yet to have one fail on me and I've put a round or two through each of the guns in varying classes.

[Wayne Dobbs]

It was a competition job, but that brings up the question of why would you buy something, even for play, that is likely to quit working for you? The example I saw didn't last 50 rounds before the diaper failed...

[M4arc]

All - I haven't used either but I don't want this to get out of hand so....

I know Burwell does offer a defensive trigger package in addition to a competition one. Please provide you experiences and let the OP decide what is best for him.

[Heavy Metal]

It was a competition job, but that brings up the question of why would you buy something, even for play, that is likely to quit working for you? The example I saw didn't last 50 rounds before the diaper failed...

In all fairness Wayne, that is a sample of one.

[John_Wayne777]

For clarification:

Mine has the "Carry" trigger job, and it is PLENTY light. I don't have a trigger scale but I'd guess it is in the 4-5 pound range with a *very* clean break.

Personally I wouldn't go *any* lighter on a weapon meant for serious social purposes. I wouldn't get the "competition" trigger offered by Mr. Burwell unless it was genuinely on a competition only handgun.

[exitinyourhead]

I have a 4.5lb trigger done by Dan Burwell. I haven't shot it a ton as i have just gotten it back but i've put about 300 rounds of reloads through it without any trigger failure. It's nice, smooth and accurate.

fwiw i also had
melt job - nice
nickle teflon - nice
10-8 wide rear with a trijicon slim night front install - accurate

I purchased this firearm for my wife. I did the mods hoping it would be accurate and reliable with a very predicatable and smooth trigger pull. I am very satisfied and she absolutely loves it. She was able to shoot well with it her first time and gushes over the looks of it. I would send another to him.

I am going to send my HK45 to Bowie for his trigger and fix so I'll be able to see how his work stacks up as well. I've heard 95 - 99 percent great things about both smiths and I would be confident that if i didn't send them a gun and do things that would change it into a race gun that it would be a reliable defense gun afterwords. Would I still put 300/400 rounds through it to test it? Yes, I would. Would I try different ammo types? You bet ya.

I also like to take other people's malfunctions with a grain of salt. I'll watch/listen/evaluate, but in the long run... I didn't dissasemble/reassemble. I didn't choose parts. I didn't choose ammo. My hands aren't on the firearm. I'm not saying if it didn't happen to me that it didn't happen. I'm just saying it didn't happen to me.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Yes, I realize that it's a sample of one. Truthfully, about 99% of us base more of our decisions than we would honestly like to admit on "samples of one". This sample of one was a student that drove to Texas from California for a LAV class with a gun that he spent a sum of money on to have worked over by one of the current two prominent M&P gun doctors. He didn't bring an extra gun (and doom on him for that oversight) and used one of my extra guns to complete the class. The "sample of one" took an early and bad dump. It was a tough lesson and one that stuck with the whole class, LAV included.

I'm sure Burwell does good work and I KNOW that David does. But, that "sample of one" didn't help Dan's reputation with a bunch of folks that watched the failure and I note that Larry now has Bowie as the point of contact for any work needed on HK45s.

[Jay Cunningham]

and I note that Larry now has Bowie as the point of contact for any work needed on HK45s.

Burwell only does M&P work. Bowie works on various poly pistols, and customized LAV's Glock back in the day.

[NCPatrolAR]

Yes, I realize that it's a sample of one. Truthfully, about 99% of us base more of our decisions than we would honestly like to admit on "samples of one". This sample of one was a student that drove to Texas from California for a LAV class with a gun that he spent a sum of money on to have worked over by one of the current two prominent M&P gun doctors. He didn't bring an extra gun (and doom on him for that oversight) and used one of my extra guns to complete the class. The "sample of one" took an early and bad dump. It was a tough lesson and one that stuck with the whole class, LAV included.

I'm sure Burwell does good work and I KNOW that David does. But, that "sample of one" didn't help Dan's reputation with a bunch of folks that watched the failure and I note that Larry now has Bowie as the point of contact for any work needed on HK45s.


As if it matters, Larry has messed with my Burwell worked-over M&Ps on several occassions and has seen my guns come through 4 or 5 of his courses without a hiccup. Ken H has tried them out also and did a direct comparison of them to Bowie's work. IIRC, Ken prefered Dave's work which is fine by me. Bill Jeans has also taken a look at Burwells work via my pistols and has seemed to be impressed with them.

Ultimately choose whichever one makes you the most happy. I know I've made my decision. :)

[nickdrak]

My Burwell worked over M&P45 has 1300rds through it since the trigger job. Zero issues.

[ToddG]

Someone asked basically, "Why would you offer (or get) a trigger job that might compromise reliability?"

The most common reason is that some action work can affect the amount of impact force the striker/firing pin imparts on the primer. There is a SAAMI firing pin indent standard (0.009" for small pistol primer ammo; 0.011" for large pistol primer ammo), and most stock service-grade guns will beat that by a significant margin. However, if you can be selective about your ammo, you can go lighter. For example, Federal primers are softer than most, and so they will go off when hit lighter than many other brands. One frequently heard caveat to competition trigger jobs, then, is "only guaranteed to work with Federal primers."

The real question should be, "Why would anyone show up to an LAV class (or any other combat-oriented training) with a gun tricked out for competition?" Sympathy level: zero.

If you pay someone to take your gun to the edge, don't be surprised if it falls off.

[RWK]

If you pay someone to take your gun to the edge, don't be surprised if it falls off.

Too true! I found this to be true last year when I took a Vanek-triggered Glock 35 to Rogers. It was practically uncontrollable.

[TRguy]

I have a Burwell .45 M&P and I like the work and love how the triggers feels now. So as long as you are satisfied with your gun what does it matter which smith does a better trigger job than the other if both are quality work.

[SeaSoldier]

Please note that I wasn't looking for who did a BETTER trigger job. I was looking to try and find out if there was any difference's in the trigger. I'm not looking to go any lighter than say 4.5-5#. I was most interested in 1) reset strength 2) over travel 3) take up.

[Bowie Tactical]

I do three different triggers on the M&P all have different take up but all have very little overtravel and a stronger more felt reset.
Be also aware in defense of my competitor that I have heard of quite a few of his triggers going south but people have asked him to push the limits with competition guns and it is just not a good idea with this gun. A stiker fired gun should not be cut thin or real light. The slide to frame fit is normally loose and gets looser over time. The sear spring is very small and some have given up way early and this does cause a reset problem. I have had two guns with this happen and I keep very solid sear measurements. I have spoken to S&W about this and they may have had some springs not tempered correctly. I have also spoken to a spring making company(that's all I can say now) who has heard of the problem and are about to come out with M&P sear springs.
Just do not expect a 100% gun under about 4.25 to 4.5 pounds CRISP if you are going to run it hard. Some will last I have one at four with about 10,000 rounds. But I have heard of many that did not make to a 1,000 with the light triggers. The M&P sear spring is very very small and any percentage of failure in it adds up fast.

CHECK 360 David Bowie