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USMC03
06-01-08, 19:58
Pat Rogers (EAG Tactical) 3 day Carbine Operator's Course May 17 - 19 Pueblo West, CO


This is the 2nd time I've hosted Pat for a 3 day Carbine Operator's Course and my 2nd time taking the course.

First time I trained with Pat Rogers was in May of 2007. If you want my opinion of Pat as an instructor and his training curriculum, I am working on bringing Pat back to Pueblo West in May of 2009. In some circles this is what they refer to as a clue. ;)

In 2008 I had planned on changing up a few things (guns and gear related). I don't change things for the sake of change, I change things based on performance. If it helps me be faster, more accuracte, more efficient, etc. then I will embrace change. If it looks cool but doesn't help me perform better, I don't waste my time with it.

The three main things that I wanted to try in 2008 was:

1) Run my guns (at work, in training, and competition) for a complete year without a vertical foregrip. The reason for this is I have been shooting run and gun competition with out a vertical foregrip and I have been using a vertical foregrip on my work gun. I wanted to see if there was an advantage to not using a vertical foregrip at CQB distances.

2) Replace the Glock 9mm's that I have been using for close to a decade with the S&W M&P 9mm. I have shot the M&P's and I prefer the Glock, but I felt in order to give the M&P a fair shake, I needed to run it for a year (at work, training classes, competition, etc).

3) Try running a lower profile rig for those times when I don't need my Eagle CIRAS or don't have time to don it (ie. robbery / shooting / or other high in progress priority call). This may not get me any extra points in the "Chicks Dig It" catagory, but I wanted something easy to don / doff, that was fairly light weight, low profile, minimalist, comfortable, and incorporated ease of mobility into the design.



For the last several years at work and training I had been carrying 14.5" M4 carbine's with LaRue 7.0 rail systems. This worked fine for me when running a vertical foregrip. Due to the manner in which I like to hold my hand on the forend when not using a vertical forgrip, I found that the 7.0 was too short.

So in 2008 I had planned on going to a 16" carbine with a mid-length gas system and a LaRue 9.0 rail system. This would give me the real estate needed to hold the handguard in the manner in which I prefer (thumb over the 12 o'clock rail, index finger on the 9 o'clock rail pointed in the same direction as the muzzle, and my other three fingers wrapped around the bottom of the handguard...illistrated in the pic below, index finger is straight along the 9 o'clock rail pointing the same direction as the muzzle):
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0584.jpg?t=1211853618

The 16" mid-lenght upper was finished in December, the same month that I ordered the lower for this project. By mid-March I hadn't received the lower from the vendor that I ordered it from, so I ordered a Noveske N4 low profile carbine (I finally received the lower for the 16" mid-lenght in April).


I ordered two S&W M&P 9mm's in December, I was going to use one in class and another student was going to use the other. As of this date I still haven't received the M&P's.

My plans for my 2008 test bed products were off to a slow start as we entered the 2nd quarter of the year I just getting my carbine on line, and hadn't heard any word on the pistols.

Several months ago I contacted Mike Dizmuke (Diz) owner / operator of U/W Gear Waxhaw, NC. Diz and I have several long on line discussions on various message boards over the years. My idea was to have a custom rig simular to the Tactical Tailor 2 piece MAV with X-Harness and Hydro pouch that I used several years ago. Diz and I spec'ed out two rigs. One black for work, and a very simular rig in Coyote Brown for training (with the training rig we omitted the radio pouch which was not needed for training).


So I ran the following gear the entire class (with the exception of running Pat's BAE RBAV vest for Training Day 2).


-Rifle - Noveske N4 low profile 14.5" carbine with perminately attached Surfire 556k flash hider. Blue Force Gear padded VCAS sling, Surefire Scout light in LaRue Tactical mount, Aimpoint M4S in a LaRue Tactical mount, Magpul XT rail pannels, Magpul MIAD pistol grip, Magpul UBR buttstock, and Magpul P-MAGs.

-Pistol - Because I have been waiting on the S&W M&P 9mm's, I ran the same pistol that I run for my dedicated SWAT pistol (and the same set up that I ran for Pat's May 2007 class). Glock 17, Heinie Slant Pro sights, Surefire x300 light, in a modified Safariland 6004 holster.

-Gear - I ran the custom chest rig that Diz made for me (pics below) on Training Day 1 and Training Day 3. Pat and I are the same size and he asked me if I would be interested in wearing BAE Systems' new RPAV to get a broad base of feedback. So for the entire day of Training Day 2, I wore Pat's RBAV with soft armor and plates.

Diz's Custom Rig:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Gear%20pics/IMG_0604.jpg?t=1211939599

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Gear%20pics/IMG_0606.jpg?t=1211939623




Training Day 1 - Decent sized class, (24 students including me), Pat, and Assistant Instructor Mike H.

High temp for the day was approxiamtely 80 degrees.

For a frame of reference we had (2) Purple Heart receipients, a Doctor, a Judge, a Scientist, a Federal Agent, a Tattoo Artist, an Engineer or two, a college student, a part time custom gear manufacturer, an unemployeed dude, a Contractor, a Detective / SWAT cop, an Air Force LtCol, a H&K Law Enforcement Rep, and some other gainfully employeed folks.

Training Day 1 started off with sign in, intros, and briefing. Pat then started off the day with a lecture covering several different subjects, all relative to what we would be doing over the next 3 days.

After the lecture we headed to the 50 yard line to ensure everyone had a proper zero on their rifle.

On the line, Pat had 3 LWRC rifles lent out to students, another student had a personally owned 10.5" LWRC carbine, a Sig 556 (with Leupold CQT), Jerod (H&K rep) used a MP5 on TD1 and a MP7 (4.6x30) on TD2, an AK74, a 14.5" H&K 416 (and Pat's 10.5" H&K 416 when he was on the line), and several different AR15 based platforms.

I was using my Aimpoint 3x Magnifier in a LaRue Tactical Flip mount to zero my rifle. I was wearing a boonie hat and the arms of my Oakley glasses interfer with the hat about 1/2" behind my ears, which can get painful after wearing the hat / Oakleys for a short period of time. So I wore a pair of Nike sunglasses that have shorter arms and the arms curve behind the ear and don't interfer with the boonie hat.

While zeroing I could see 2 dots through the magnifier. This isn't the first time I have learned the lessons of quality eyewear first hand. When I started using the Oakley glasses, I no longer saw two seperate dots through the magnifier.

In other classes I have been to in the past, the instructor has had all the students on line at the same time. Pat runs his classes in two relays. Half the class is on the line shooting, the other half of the class is behind the line hydrating, urinating (which goes hand in hand with hydrating), jamming mags, and addressing any admin issues they may have. A 2 relay system makes the class run much smoother.

Through out the day we covered offset, trigger reset, engagement (high, pairs, failure, and NSR), intermediate shooting positions, reloads, rapid possition assumption, malfunction drills, and Modified Navy Qual.


Due to the various different levels of shooting skills encountered in an open enrollment class, things start off slow and the pace pics up as the class continues.

But something I noticed is that everyone was on the same sheet of music in a very short period of time.

I noticed that many of the shooter were getting sluggish after lunch. Assistant Instructor Mike Hueser addressed this problem as many of the shooters were not properly hydrating.

Locally, this spring has been unseasonlbly cool and the week prior to the class high temps fluxuated between the 40's - 60's. I think the 80 degree weather caught some of the Colorado guys off guard. And I think the altitude (5,000') combined with the heat caught some of the guys from out of state off guard.

Mike H. drilled the importance of staying hydrated thoughout the class.




Training Day 2

High temp for the day was approxiamtely 85 degrees.

On this day I wore Pat's BAE RBAV. I had to take care of some Admin / Host issues near the parking area, and was about 75 yards behind the rest of the class heading down to hang targets.

I ran the distance to catch up with the rest of the class. After I caught up, it dawned on me how light the RPAV was (containing both soft armor and hard armor plates).

Pat's BAE Systems RBAV that I wore on TD2:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Gear%20pics/IMG_0458.jpg?t=1211939678

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Gear%20pics/IMG_0460.jpg?t=1211939746


After hanging targets we headed back to the 50 yard line and re-confirmed zeros. After we reconfirmed zero's at 50 yards we moved onto transition to pistol, static turns, dynamic turns, shooting on the move, multiple target engagement, and Modified Navy Qualification.



The shooter next to me on line, Bob (a OIF vet and Purple Heart receipient) had his gun go down at the end of Training Day 1 or at the begining of Training Day 2. After the first drill of the day, I lent my SBR to Bob. This is the same gun that I ran in Pat's 2007 Pueblo West class.

The SBR has a 11.5" Bravo Company Barrel in a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper (lower and bolt carrier group is LMT). The gun has run 100% since day 1. Bob ran the SBR for almost all of TD2 and the entire day of TD3, using Wolf ammo. The gun didn't have a single malfunction. I used this same gun in a slightly different configuration during Pat's 2007 Carbine Operator's Course:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/LMT%20SBR/IMG_0659.jpg?t=1211943460

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0570.jpg?t=1211943536


I shot the entire day using the RBAV. The system was extreemly comfortable. I was impressed with it enough that I will be purchasing one out of pocket for work.



Training Day 3

High temp for the day was just over 90 degrees.

As we did the two days prior we started off the day at 50 yards re-confirming zeros. We then moved onto warm up drills, Modified Navy Qual(graded), Qual x2.

Unfortunately on Training Day 3, we lost 3 shooters. Jerod (HK Rep), the Air Force LT Col, and the Mad Scientist had to pop smoke (for work, family, or health related reasons) and were unable to attend the last day of class.

The day was hot and the training was outstanding.






Observations and Lessons learned:

-The Noveske N4 low profile was extreemly reliable. Not a single malfuction before, after, or during the class. Round count is approximatey 1,500 rounds at the time of this AAR.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Noveske%20N4/IMG_0634.jpg

-I was extreemly impressed with the Aimpoint M4S in the LaRue Tactical Comp M4 mount. I have both the M4 and the M4S. I prefer the lower profile of the M4S. I've been running Aimpoints exclusively since the late 90's.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Noveske%20N4/IMG_0637.jpg?t=1211946105

-Magpul P-MAGs: The high mountain desert sand and dust got into everything. I didn't witness or hear of anyone having a problem with the Magpul P-MAGS.

I have been running P-MAGs exclusively since I first received a few in a training class last Sept. 2007.

I have used nothing but P-MAGs in the class and they were all numbered. I tried to run #1 - #6 as much as possible to see if I could get them to develop problems. I ran P-MAGs #1 - #6 for approximatley 90% of the class and didn't have a problem with any of the mags. The P-MAGs were constantly being dropped in the fine sand (reloads, etc), they were stepped on, and abused. I was impressed by the performance of the P-MAGs. As I was unloading my gear on Monday night at the end of class, I could hear dirt and debris that is still inside some of the mags:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Noveske%20N4/IMG_0635.jpg?t=1212363267

-Blue Force Gear Vickers (VCAS) sling (padded version). I have been running the VCAS slings for just over 2 years. Awesome design. Initially I didn't think there was much utility in a padded version, but after using one for the last couple months, I'm in the process of upgrading all my VCAS slings to the padded version.


-Magpul UBR. I was a big fan of the Magpul MSS (M93) even before it was a firing prototype. Richard Fitzpatrick and the crew at Magpul took the lessons learned from the M93 and developed the UBR. The stock was delivered on Saturday (TD1) while I was in class, and Mike O. and I installed in that night (we had some other gun plumbing projects to take care of, so we installed the UBR on the N4). I ran the UBR on TD2 and TD3. I was very impressed at the ergonomics and features of the UBR. I had zero issues with dirt, dust, and debris effecting the functioning of the stock. Top shelf product, I'll definately be getting a few more.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Noveske%20N4/IMG_0646.jpg?t=1212363629

-Diz's custom made rig. Worked perfectly. I had zero issues with Diz's rig. Well thought out, well executed, quality gear from a quality individual. What more can be said:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Gear%20pics/IMG_0666.jpg?t=1212364100

-Pat Rogers and Assistant Instructor Michael Hueser. Good dudes, very knowledgeable, very professional, outstanding instructors. Can't say enough good things about them.


-I didn't shoot as well this year as I did last year (2nd high shooter in the class in 2007).

I did fair, just not up to my usual standard.

I don't know what to attribute this to. Maybe I shoot better at closer distances with the vertical foregrip, maybe my game wasn't on, who knows...it's too early to tell. As I stated earlier, 2008 is a year that I'm changing things up and see what does and what doesn't work for me. As I train more, I'll figure out if dumping the vertical foregrip was a good idea or not.



If this AAR has done anything, I hope that it has motivated a few people who read it to get out and train. Never be affraid to get out and try something new.





S/F,
Jeff

mark5pt56
06-01-08, 20:24
Jeff, I just picked up my ADC piston upper and it ran great! With your experience shooting the HK and lwrc, how did they run in that class?

Mark

GLOCKMASTER
06-01-08, 20:43
Hey Jeff GREAT AAR. Glad to hear you are liking Diz's work. I hoping to get him to build me one soon.

molsen
06-01-08, 20:50
Jeff, I just picked up my ADC piston upper and it ran great! With your experience shooting the HK and lwrc, how did they run in that class?

Mark
Not Jeff, but I don't think he fired either brand in the class at all.

USMC03
06-01-08, 21:08
Mark,


I didn't shoot either the 416 or the LWRC in this class, but I have had trigger time behind both.

In this class neither of the 416 had any problem. In fact none of the 416's I've seen have ever had a problem, but I've only been exposed to a small sampling.

One or two of the LWRC guns had some issues, but I believed that they were eventually resolved.

Keep me posted on how the new ADS piston upper runs over the long haul.



JFreuler,


Thanks for the kind words Brother. Diz's work is second to none. And we all share the same Alumni. Diz went above an beyond on my rig (and from talking with others, that's common, not something out of the ordinary). Knowing that I was 5'06" with an athletic build, Diz built the rig to fit me without me having to remind him. Keep an eye out in the Tactical Gear Forum, hopefully I'll have a review of his rig up in the next couple days (but I've been saying that for the last couple weeks and keep getting jammed up with other work).




Take care and stay safe!!!



S/F,
Jeff

Blake
06-01-08, 21:41
Jeff,

I would like to say thanks, not just for this post, but for most of your posts. You truly take the time to put thought into what you write. They are extremely insightful and educational. I've learned a ton just by reading what you write. You go beyond opinion, and explain they why and how you do things. Hopefully we can share thoughts one day in person, after all I live in Kansas, and love to visit CO. I do appreciate it.

Blake

mark5pt56
06-02-08, 06:01
I didn't shoot either the 416 or the LWRC in this class, but I have had trigger time behind both.

In this class neither of the 416 had any problem. In fact none of the 416's I've seen have ever had a problem, but I've only been exposed to a small sampling.

One or two of the LWRC guns had some issues, but I believed that they were eventually resolved.

Keep me posted on how the new ADS piston upper runs over the long haul.


I've shot the 416 as well, very nice.

We ran the ADC upper in the last MOd class and it took a beating and never burped. I'll be getting some pics of it up and then start doing range work.

I was curious on how the various piston uppers are doing, what happened on the lwrc?

UDT
06-02-08, 09:26
Thanks, very good AAR and pics.

USMC03
06-02-08, 12:01
Mark,


I don't know what the exact problem was, but as I recall the spring on the piston assembly broke. I'll find out and let you know.






Links mentioned in the AAR above:


www.laruetactical.com

www.magpul.com

www.bravocompanyusa.com

www.blueforcegear.com

www.noveskerifleworks.com

www.tangodownllc.com

www.slip2000.com

www.springco.com

www.camelbak.com

www.primaryweapons.com

www.vikingtactics.com

www.eclipse-gear.com (BAE Systems RBAV)







S/F,
Jeff

Jay Cunningham
06-02-08, 12:05
Jeff,

Could you delve a bit more into the meat of the coursework? Your AAR was a very good gear review, but only just touched on the training aspect.

Jay Cunningham
06-02-08, 12:37
Sorry my review wasn't up to your standards, TheKatar.

Jeff,

I was asking if you could go more into detail on the curriculum itself. If It came across as a criticism, my apologies.

Ed L.
06-02-08, 15:16
Excellent AAR!

USMC03
06-04-08, 00:42
I would like to start off by giving a big THANKS to Rich Fitzpatrick, Drake Clark, and the awesome crew at Magpul Corp. Each student was given a free Magpul P-MAG.

I would also like to thank LaRue Tactical, Bravo Company USA, Primary Weapons (PWS), Vicking Tactics, Tango Down, Springco, Slip2000, CamelbaK, and Blue Force Gear for supporting the class and providing products that were awarded to high shooters in different events.


We had a great group. It was nice to meet a lot of the members from this board face to face. Hopefully I'll have an AAR up in the next couple days.

In the mean time some pics to keep the savages at bay:

Pat getting some trigger time in with relay 1:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0388.jpg

ASSBAGS workin the LMT 10.5" with PWS comp:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0429.jpg

Debo layin' down some pain from the prone:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0483.jpg

Gettin' busy from position Monica:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0495.jpg

Shawn going from position Monica to prone:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0501.jpg

Eggroll efficiently changing mags on an inferior platform....but he ran it well:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0546.jpg

DZhitshard layin down the law with some German authority (HK416):
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0563.jpg

Me workin out the Novekse N4 low profile carbine and trying to give ASSBAGS (behind the camera) a brass shower:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0617.jpg

MEUSOC Qual:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0609.jpg?t=1212557052

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/IMG_0471.jpg?t=1212557461



S/F,
Jeff

mark5pt56
06-04-08, 06:07
Eggroll efficiently changing mags on an inferior platform....but he ran it well:

Why's that?


but he ran it well

Which is saying he's getting things done with it?

USMC03
06-04-08, 07:53
what happened on the lwrc?

Mark,

The way it was explained to the the op rod spring broke. The gun that had the op rod spring break had approximately 8,000 rounds through it.

LWRC recommends that the op rod spring be replaced every 5,000 rounds. I don't know what the maintance schedule on the gun was and if the recommendation to chage the spring at regular intervals came before or after the spring broke.




"but he ran it well"

Why's that?



Which is saying he's getting things done with it?


Correct, Egg ran his AK efficiently during the class.








S/F,
Jeff

mark5pt56
06-04-08, 09:13
That makes sense to me.




Mark,


The way it was explained to the the op rod spring broke. The gun that had the op rod spring break had approximately 8,000 rounds through it.

LWRC recommends that the op rod spring be replaced every 5,000 rounds. I don't know what the maintance schedule on the gun was and if the recommendation to chage the spring at regular intervals came before or after the spring broke.





Correct, Egg ran his AK efficiently during the class.




S/F,
Jeff

So, it's not inferior for the task at hand. From what I've seen with various shooters there's no difference in field condition hit ratio's.

Mark

USMC03
10-22-08, 19:29
On a side note, there are several pics from this class in the November S.W.A.T. magazine .........To include a pic of Bob rockin' the 10.5" HK416 ..... on news stands now.



S/F,
Jeff

USMC03
12-21-08, 00:55
EAG Tactical Carbine Operators Course announcement for May 2009 can be seen here:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=18688


S/F,
Jeff

USMC03
12-24-08, 19:35
Found some pics from the class that I forgot I had.



http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/Picture144_1.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/Picture168_1.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%20May%202008/Picture174_1.jpg



S/F,
Jeff

condoor
12-28-08, 15:45
Jeff -

Do you think this class is appropriate for a beginner? I'm looking to get some kind of carbine training in CO this next year and have very little experience with it. If not - could you recommend some other class?

thx-Chris

UVvis
12-28-08, 16:33
Jeff -

Do you think this class is appropriate for a beginner? I'm looking to get some kind of carbine training in CO this next year and have very little experience with it. If not - could you recommend some other class?

thx-Chris

Chris,

Check your PM's.