View Full Version : SHTF round count
A buddy of mine asked me the other day how many rounds he should have on hand for shtf or zombies or what ever. What do you all think should be the min number of rounds on hand? How many mags?
In all reality, a couple of mags would probably do the trick in the defense of your home.... I'm talking a hurricane Katrizzle type chrisis.
On the other hand It's better to have and not need. Get a thousand rounds of M193 or something.
KintlaLake
06-02-08, 09:38
TLD and 'canes notwithstanding, I guess it depends on how one defines the S in SHTF.
My personal definitions of S include the prospect of government restrictions, an unfavorable shift of political winds, and imminent changes in market conditions (price and availability).
(All based on a rational assessment of my own needs, of course, not on some Chicken Little marketing blitz. :rolleyes: ;) )
When deciding whether or not one's SHTF stockpile is adequate, it always helps to try this (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi).
:D
IMO 1k minimum
And mags, IMO at a minimum 20, but he should by them while he can, they get damaged, malfunction, lost etc
the prospect of government restrictions
That's the scenario that's scary.
Jay Cunningham
06-02-08, 10:28
I would think as much as you could reasonably carry on your person, in magazines.
1,000 rounds of ammunition doesn't do much for you in a box in your garage. 4 or 5 long gun magazines and 2 or 3 pistol magazines should cover everything but an actual extended firefight, I would imagine. And I don't really envision the extended firefight scenario happening.
RogerinTPA
06-02-08, 10:50
I would think as much as you could reasonably carry on your person, in magazines.
1,000 rounds of ammunition doesn't do much for you in a box in your garage. 4 or 5 long gun magazines and 2 or 3 pistol magazines should cover everything but an actual extended firefight, I would imagine. And I don't really envision the extended firefight scenario happening.
Agreed. That said, I also stock pile for these reasons: SHTF (Bugin as opposed to bugout), Training/practice, and the ever increasing cost of ammo.
I
And I don't really envision the extended firefight scenario happening.
Oh there will be 12 hour fire fights! :D
Jay Cunningham
06-02-08, 11:16
Oh there will be 12 hour fire fights! :D
I have been informed by individuals that I have no reason to doubt that the most switched-on guys overseas usually don't run with anymore than the above mentioned loadout, and sometimes less. There is a lot to be said for precise shot placement. And suppressive fire is for SAWs.
That being said, nobody really knows what the next SHTF scenario will be until they are standing ankle-deep in it.
KintlaLake
06-02-08, 12:26
That being said, nobody really knows what the next SHTF scenario will be until they are standing ankle-deep in it.
Word.
I suspect that a lot of folks stockpiling ammo for SHTF might be forgetting something else. Imagine millions of well-armed citizens, defending empty pantries and the contents of their toilet tanks... :rolleyes:
I had read (not sure where) that you should keep 3x as much ammo that you would use in a normal range day.
That being said, nobody really knows what the next SHTF scenario will be until they are standing ankle-deep in it.
Amen.
Plus you always have to wonder about how realistic your expectations of survival as a lone gunman would be if your area was being invaded by an organized force.
Still, having some stashed good ammo isn't ever going to hurt you, house fires aside.
You asked.
100k all in magazines for your primary and 30k all in magazines for your secondary.
.When deciding whether or not one's SHTF stockpile is adequate, it always helps to try this (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi).:D
Thats wrong i asked if I had enough and it said absolutely:confused:
KintlaLake
06-02-08, 16:09
4 or 5 long gun magazines and 2 or 3 pistol magazines...
100k all in magazines for your primary and 30k all in magazines for your secondary.
And that, brothers and sisters, is what we call diversity. :D
Still, having some stashed good ammo isn't ever going to hurt you, house fires aside.
I don't remember where I heard/read it, but to paraphrase:
"There's no such thing as too much ammo...unless you're drowning, or on fire."
Okay so it’s a slow afternoon at work and I’ve been thinking ‘bout this some more…
First off, I don’t believe in zombies (blasphemy, I know…). I figure anybody worth having a gun fight with, probably considers it a two-way proposition. And if a feller can expend 1000+ rounds in hostilities, as a lone actor, without getting dead himself, and not manage to somehow scavenge/steal/raid/pillage his way into some sort of resupply, he’s doing something wrong. Even if you were holed up in a castle-type siege, if the are thick enough you can’t go out and poke some bodies for some supplies, then you’ve going to only last so long before you get overran anyways. You’re going to need to eat/sleep/pee/poop/websurf eventually. In that case you might as well cowboy up and just ride out and meet them head on. The difference between lasting 72 hours and lasting 75 hours, is only 3 hours. And not the best 3 hours, either. I don’t want to die on the crapper when the illegal-ninja-UN-Chinese-pirate-cyborgs finally kick in the door. (An aside: If you put UN blue helmets on the Red Chinese, do they become purple-headed warriors?)
This all assumes you [i]don’t live in the 21st –century equivalent of Helm’s Deep with a clean water source, indoor plumbing, indefinite power generation, and several years worth of food stockpiled (and some friends/family to help man this thing). In that case, a few hundred thousand rounds in all your favorite calibers wouldn’t hurt. Just remember that Orc armor is weak at the neck and under the arm.
Slightly more seriously, I look at it as hierarchy. 1 minute-1 hour-1 day-1 week-1 month-1 year, in that order. Each builds off the last. 1-minute? Pistol and mag on your person. One day? Maybe a chest rig and your carbine, some water and powerbar. 1 month? Better have a full pantry. 1-year? Hope the garden came in good. But don’t start stockpiling a year’s worth of ammo if you don’t have a week’s worth of food/water. Ya know? Prioritize...
I’d say don’t get bogged down in your “fighting” ammo either. Lots of .22 and 12-gauge birdshot would be essential for the long-term.
You guys are forgetting, you need to have enough arms and ammo for your friends as well - thats what I tell the wife. ;)
You guys are forgetting, you need to have enough arms and ammo for your friends as well - thats what I tell the wife. ;)
And if your family lives near... you got to have enough stashed at their house in case your over there when it happens... :)
Some good points, I guess we were talking about somethingalong the lines of Katrinia... While I don't think the inland parts of FL would drowned, I do think it would be realistic to think power wold be out, cops would be busy or response times would be measured in days not minutes or hours. I totally over looked the 12ga.
We carry a minimum of 10 mags per guy not including the ammo in our vehicles. Especially because you can't always count on Big Brother to be in the area if the SHTF. I am resupplying my stock at home every payday, just in case........
I have been informed by individuals that I have no reason to doubt that the most switched-on guys overseas usually don't run with anymore than the above mentioned loadout, and sometimes less. There is a lot to be said for precise shot placement. And suppressive fire is for SAWs.
That being said, nobody really knows what the next SHTF scenario will be until they are standing ankle-deep in it.
Submariner
06-03-08, 06:46
You asked.
100k all in magazines for your primary and 30k all in magazines for your secondary.
Now multiply this by the number of children you have to train and, maybe, you are close.
And "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children."
I like 10 30rd mags each of 7.62x39 and 5.56X45 loaded and in web gear
plus 2500 rds each on hand in storage
keep about 5000 rds of 45 on hand to keep the 1911 well feed for a while.
Jay Cunningham
06-03-08, 07:42
We carry a minimum of 10 mags per guy not including the ammo in our vehicles. Especially because you can't always count on Big Brother to be in the area if the SHTF. I am resupplying my stock at home every payday, just in case........
I am also buying ammo every payday. The Bulgarian and Russian corrosive 5.45mm in 1080 rounds tins is very attractive.
re: your loadout - that is a personal thing and only you have a good handle on your own requirements. I was primarily referring to US spec ops guys who have a tremendous amount of logistics support, air cover, resupply, etc. They are normally doing quick raids with much more ammo in their vehicles since almost everything is vehicle based to some extent.
When you said ten mags, were you referring to just carbine mags or does that include pistol? If you tally my original recommendation it was seven or eight magazines on the body, five 30 round carbine and two double stack or three single stack pistol.
What would be your recommendation to the OP re:
A buddy of mine asked me the other day how many rounds he should have on hand for shtf or zombies or what ever. What do you all think should be the min number of rounds on hand? How many mags?
Also, if you don't mind my asking, do you recall the most mags you have ever gone through in a fight? Do you carry a select-fire carbine? If yes, have you employed that feature?
Thanks for the good info.
The Archangel
06-03-08, 09:06
Well there's the answer...
The Archangel
06-03-08, 09:13
More 8-Ball Wisdom...
Gutshot John
06-03-08, 10:13
Is there any legal limit to how much ammo a civilian can possess?
Regulation requirements?
Lots of .22 and 12-gauge birdshot would be essential for the long-term.
But there's no birds or squirrels in the city. (except for pigeons)
I totally over looked the 12ga.
Why's everyone wanting to go bird hunting in the middle of SHTF?
Gutshot John
06-03-08, 10:33
Why's everyone wanting to go bird hunting in the middle of SHTF?
Birds/Squirrels/Rabbits are Mother Nature's McDonald's, they're everywhere and everything eats them. With a 22 you don't want to waste a full power round and still hunt for survival. 12 gauge is probably a fairly versatile round for bird and deer/large game. Though I'd probably bow hunt large critters. Many a boy put food on his family's table with a .22.
.22 is probably what I would have the most of for practice if nothing else.
As an added bonus there are few things that improve tactical skills like constant hunting. Woodland Indians held whites to the east coast of the US for 200 years due to a lifestyle of constant hunting as training for war. Tactics that white colonials never learned to directly counter/adopt.
Dig it! If you're out in the country, I can see it.
But if you're buggin' in in the city, there's not much small game.
Gutshot John
06-03-08, 10:56
Dig it! If you're out in the country, I can see it.
But if you're buggin' in in the city, there's not much small game.
I suppose it depends on where you live but there are tons of squirrels and pigeons/rats if nothing else in most cities. I live just outside of the city limits (residential neighborhood) and I have groundhog (ugh), rabbit and all kinds of small game critters. In many neighborhoods in Pittsburgh you will get the occasional bear/deer as well (not that I suggest using a .22 for that).
Given a zombie time scenario I've no particular aversion to stray cats or dogs either.
I was thinking more of 00 buck and slugs.
Shhht, this is what you will need during shtf.
http://www.gem-tech.com/Images/OASIS.jpg
Submariner
06-03-08, 11:11
Why's everyone wanting to go bird hunting in the middle of SHTF?
Aren't zombies edible?;)
Jay Cunningham
06-03-08, 11:18
Guys, let's try and get this back on a more narrow track, if it's at all possible. The original post was:
A buddy of mine asked me the other day how many rounds he should have on hand for shtf or zombies or what ever. What do you all think should be the min number of rounds on hand? How many mags?
LawDog, please be more specific as to what consitutes "SHTF" - these four little letters are the cause of more nonsense than any others on the gun forums. In my mind, I am thinking something like Hurricane Katrina type natural disasters with associated looters or LA Riot type mobs. This is your thread, though, so you get to define it.
KintlaLake
06-03-08, 11:23
Shhht, this is what you will need during shtf.
http://www.gem-tech.com/Images/OASIS.jpg
I was thinking of a Ruger, but more like this (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1172&return=Y) one...
Gutshot John
06-03-08, 11:39
I'd probably break it out like this if I was doing minimum planning for TEOTWAWKI:
20K .22lr
10K 5.56x45
10K 7.62x51
10K 12 gauge (5K 00, 3K Bird, 2K Slug)
5K .45
5K 9mm
I don't have near those amounts except in 7.62 and 9mm but I don't necessarily buy into the SHTF scenario as being anything other than temporary.
If I begin to view that as a possibility I will stock up in earnest.
But there's no birds or squirrels in the city. (except for pigeons)
Here in OK it's easier to see birds and squirrels in the "city" than in the country. I grew up in the sticks -- rural critters are scared of people, city critters are used to humans (humans that can't legally shoot them). If I had a suppressed .22, I could feed myself off city squirrels for quite a while without leaving the neighborhood, and have enough pelts for a fancy coat while I'm at it.
Just goes to show how everyone's perspective is dramatically different. So like thekatar said, I guess it's up to the OP's definition of SHTF.
Some good points, I guess we were talking about somethingalong the lines of Katrinia... While I don't think the inland parts of FL would drowned, I do think it would be realistic to think power wold be out, cops would be busy or response times would be measured in days not minutes or hours. I totally over looked the 12ga.
Last post on the first page. But thanks for keeping it on track. I need to stop posting at 4am.
Jay Cunningham
06-03-08, 12:07
There is a difference between survival skills and providing physical security during a crisis. The two can be interrelated, to an extent, but if there is a big flood or hurricane or blizzard your first concern should probably not be your plate carrier. However, if Hillary manages to steal the nomination during the convention and race riots break out in urban centers across the country, then your case of water and .22 bird gun are probably not priority one either.
SHTF. Well once you start getting into that sorta thing you start wanting to prepare for so many different S's that it can take over your life. Granted preparing for any SHTF does cover alot of stuff for most SHTF, But the whole bug in bug out thing makes preparing different. As far as ammo goes. I buy ammo because i shoot alot and ammo bought today is cheaper than ammo bought tomorrow. That said I always buy more when I shoot if possible, I.E. if i shoot 300 i try to buy more than 300 on my next purchase.
For SHTF, ammo and guns are a must but not going overboard at the expense of other things such as food and water. Like someone said the Helms Deep scenario is not very realistic.
There is a difference between survival skills and providing physical security during a crisis. The two can be interrelated, to an extent, but if there is a big flood or hurricane or blizzard your first concern should probably not be your plate carrier. However, if Hillary manages to steal the nomination during the convention and race riots break out in urban centers across the country, then your case of water and .22 bird gun are probably not priority one either.
Well said.
Some good points, I guess we were talking about somethingalong the lines of Katrinia... While I don't think the inland parts of FL would drowned, I do think it would be realistic to think power wold be out, cops would be busy or response times would be measured in days not minutes or hours. I totally over looked the 12ga.
So basically, bugging in and holding down the fort for let's say, less than or equal to a week? You might clarify it even further, if you're planning for fighting off hordes of maurading looters, or just scaring off the occasional vagrant/thug while you're patching up your property?
Here's the most widely applicable, general statement I can come up with: Get a case of 1000 rounds for primary and secondary. Keep at a few mags for each loaded and able to be carried (chest rig, belt, bag, whatever, number of mags will depend on your and your method of carry). Keep the rest in an easily totable form like ammo cans, in case you need to pack up and get out quick.
If you're trained and capable, that would leave you pretty well prepared for any short-term event, in my opinion.
katar,
The 10 mags is carbine only, in addition we usually have a min. of 4 pistol mags.
As to the original question for the homefront I recommend at least 1000 rds. for each long gun and a min. of 500 per handgun. Although I am currently passing those numbers easily due to the current situation.........I also keep them loaded in footlockers ready to go so I can throw the ammo and gear in my 4 Runner or Suburban and roll out if necessary. Of course if gas prices keep going up I'll be pushing myslef out of the AO. :D
I believe it was 3 or 4.
I currently have a select fire Bushamster and almost never use the "Oh Shit" button. I prefer well aimed single shots whenever possible. I previously had (another contract) an M16A4 that I switched over to full-auto as I hate burst guns.
Jay Cunningham
06-03-08, 15:05
I believe it was 3 or 4.
I currently have a select fire Bushamster and almost never use the "Oh Shit" button. I prefer well aimed single shots whenever possible. I previously had (another contract) an M16A4 that I switched over to full-auto as I hate burst guns.
Thanks for the info. I have yet to attend training where an instructor even addressed automatic fire, other than to basically say "it's a waste." Of course, everything usually has some application and I can imagine employing automatic fire from a carbine in an anti-vehicle capacity, or in an ambush/counter-ambush scenario to break contact. But's them's all flights of fancy for a civvie...
:D
Thanks for the info. I have yet to attend training where an instructor even addressed automatic fire, other than to basically say "it's a waste." Of course, everything usually has some application and I can imagine employing automatic fire from a carbine in an anti-vehicle capacity, or in an ambush/counter-ambush scenario to break contact. But's them's all flights of fancy for a civvie...
:D
Same expirience here. F/A is alot fun if I'm not shooting my ammo:D .
I agree. Counter ambush at close range, sweeping an objective or clearing a room in a military situation for sure. For engaging hajji or Muj in the regular context well aimed shots would be better.
As someone else said. Full auto when it's not my ammo is cool.
Thanks for the info. I have yet to attend training where an instructor even addressed automatic fire, other than to basically say "it's a waste." Of course, everything usually has some application and I can imagine employing automatic fire from a carbine in an anti-vehicle capacity, or in an ambush/counter-ambush scenario to break contact. But's them's all flights of fancy for a civvie...
:D
I remember some dude on TOS posted the question... something along the lines of..
Do you have the parts/tools to covert to F/A when the SHTF?
As though you were screwed without F/A in a crisis situation. :rolleyes:
A buddy of mine asked me the other day how many rounds he should have on hand for shtf or zombies or what ever. What do you all think should be the min number of rounds on hand? How many mags?
I like to have around a 1000 rounds on hand.......
Around 10 loaded mags...
When I shoot bad guys I'm taking their gear, guns, and grub..
Zombies....well thats really easy, when they bite YOU, I will be nice enough to shoot you then take your stuff:D
TUNNEL RAT 33
06-04-08, 00:52
a minimum of 1k per caliber . plus food and lots of water too !
TLD and 'canes notwithstanding, I guess it depends on how one defines the S in SHTF.
When deciding whether or not one's SHTF stockpile is adequate, it always helps to try this (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi).
:D
Awesome love the 8 ball, took me back a few years, thanks
Thanks for the insight from all who posted. I have more questions but will make new posts for them.
Beat Trash
06-04-08, 08:51
I keep 8 AR mags in my chest carrier, plus 1 for the gun. For the pistol, it's 2+1, would up that to 3+1 if in a SHTF incident.
I like to have a complete set of extra magazines on hand to replace any lost/damaged.
I like to have the ability to reload all magazines at least 3 times, or have 1k per rifle, whichever is greater. For the pistol, 500 rds is my minimum.
I have much more than this on hand, and with the current price increases of ammunition, I am glad I bought when I did.
While if the country were involved in a nation wide "Katrina: type of event, I still don't think that I would realistically find myself needing more than one or two magazines, as an individual, I would rather have extra magazines, than find myself short...
As a LEO, we only have 2 extra pistol mags for the 9mm M&P's and only one extra mag for the patrol rifles... (I keep a couple of extra 30 AR mags loaded with issued duty rounds in my bag, you never know).
Jay Cunningham
06-04-08, 08:59
Thanks for the insight from all who posted. I have more questions but will make new posts for them.
Glad you got some helpful answers. I'll close this thread for now.
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