View Full Version : HK45C Accuracy issues?
Hey guys,
Shot my HK45c for the first time yesterday, and was very pleased except for one thing. The gun has great groupings, but it's hitting consistently low every time. I've tried to change sight picture and holds, but I'm hitting a few inches low every time. I was wondering if this was typical of HK? (No experience with them before this one). I searched the forum, but couldn't find anything to answer my question.
And are the sights adjustable to fix this? I read my owners manual didn't find an answer there either.
Thanks for your help in advance. Now, grill me.
LightningFast
05-09-14, 18:47
If you're changing holds and hitting low on every one of them, it's not the gun.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-09-14, 18:56
Every HK I have ever owned hit point of aim/point of impact in my hands. In other words, the bullet usually lands right behind the dot. Most Glocks hit a bit high for me. I MUCH prefer the HK method, since I basically run my front sight as an Aimpoint.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/10/ezepuhub.jpg
Dos Cylindros
05-09-14, 20:33
Mine hits POA/POI with the round landing directly behind the dot on the front sight. What variant are you using? DA/SA or LEM? Some some people have issues with both types, especially when transitioning from a striker fired gun.
Recoil anticipation. Happens to a lot of .45 shooters.
Have you tried it with different types of ammo?
Mauser KAR98K
05-10-14, 02:49
Recoil anticipation. Happens to a lot of .45 shooters.
This.
OP: Is this your first .45, and one in a compact capacity.
Also, HK's are mostly dead-holds, which means where the dot on the front sight is is where the POI is.
teutonicpolymer
05-10-14, 02:58
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/10/ezepuhub.jpg
I would not put much faith into charts like those
Coal Dragger
05-10-14, 03:44
My HK45 hits perfect for windage and about 3.5"-4" above the top of the front sight at 25 yards or so. Great for a six o' clock hold, but I'd prefer the gun to shoot exactly to the top of the sights at that distance maybe only 1"-1.5" higher than the top of the front sight. At least it is consistent so far with the two loads I have tried, one a target load consisting of 200gr semi-wadcutters over a mild powder charge and the other a 230gr hollow point over a max charge of power pistol. Both hit to virtually the same point of aim, or close enough that it makes almost no difference, windage perfect on both just a bit high.
This is not my first .45. I own two 1911's and shoot mostly .45. The windage is great for groupings, its just consistently low about 3 inches. I'm using the LEM model, and I generally hit pretty good with striker fired guns like the Shield, XD, etc. I have struggled in the past with DA/SA pistols and throwing shots low left, but once I started shooting the 1911 platform, I've really improved.
I do appreciate the feedback though guys, thanks again.
I hit low and left with LEM for like 3 months until I sorted out the best way to use the tigger.
Is it LEM V2 or ligh LEM V1.
I imagine going from a 1911 trigger to a LEM v2/v7 would mess up your shooting a lot.
If it is indeed the sights that are not regulated to your preferred sight picture, other sights are available to adjust it to your liking. Dawson Precision is a good source as is HK. They offer front sights in different heights.
Mauser KAR98K
05-10-14, 10:26
This is not my first .45. I own two 1911's and shoot mostly .45. The windage is great for groupings, its just consistently low about 3 inches. I'm using the LEM model, and I generally hit pretty good with striker fired guns like the Shield, XD, etc. I have struggled in the past with DA/SA pistols and throwing shots low left, but once I started shooting the 1911 platform, I've really improved.
I do appreciate the feedback though guys, thanks again.
And there 's your problem. You are going to have to adjust to an LEM. I find most new shooters to the trigger have a period of adjustment with it, and your symptoms are on par to a new shooter on the LEM. Twice I have used an HK with an LEM my shoots were stupid low and to the left. One of the problems was I was waiting for the thing to break and I started to anticipate recoil with it.
For me, I much prefer the DA/SA over the LEM.
I hit low and left with LEM for like 3 months until I sorted out the best way to use the tigger.
Is it LEM V2 or ligh LEM V1.
I imagine going from a 1911 trigger to a LEM v2/v7 would mess up your shooting a lot.
This, considering the reset and the slack.
Dos Cylindros
05-10-14, 10:50
Now that we know you are using the LEM, I would say its deffinately you and not the gun. You just need to adjust to the LEM trigger. Most people start out treating it like a two stage trigger, where they take up the pre-travel and then shoot it like a single action. This is the wrong way to shoot an LEM gun. The correct way is to have a continuous smooth pull of the trigger. Roll thru the break, don't stage the trigger.
This is not my first .45. I own two 1911's and shoot mostly .45. The windage is great for groupings, its just consistently low about 3 inches. I'm using the LEM model, and I generally hit pretty good with striker fired guns like the Shield, XD, etc. I have struggled in the past with DA/SA pistols and throwing shots low left, but once I started shooting the 1911 platform, I've really improved.
I do appreciate the feedback though guys, thanks again.
Buy some snap caps and practice dry firing.
I'm on my third HK polymer pistol and found initially that I was shooting low as well.
Practice dry firing and the problem will disappear.
The HK pistols are sighted-in at the factory. The sights are fine, unless they were replaced.
As others have said it takes a period of adjustment. On the upside if you can shoot an HK pistol well, especially LEM, then shooting anything else will be really easy.
P.S. Almost every shooter (not familiar with HK's) that I have handed one of my HK's has shot the pistol low, even some very experienced ones.
The HK pistols are sighted-in at the factory. The sights are fine, unless they were replaced.
They are not. All guns of a particular model all get the same exact sights. They are not regulated to each gun
Coal Dragger
05-10-14, 19:38
They are not. All guns of a particular model all get the same exact sights. They are not regulated to each gun
I'm going to have to agree here. Mine had no evidence of even being test fired even though there were two spent shell casings with it. Plus the expense of sighting in every pistol would be high, and impractical given no idea of the ammo to be used by the end user. Mine happens to be perfect for windage probably indicating a high degree of mechanical accuracy, as the front and rear sight are perfectly centered. I just need a taller front sight, .03" taller to be exact to get it hitting where I would prefer.
They are not. All guns of a particular model all get the same exact sights. They are not regulated to each gun
USP Series Operators Manual page 12; "Sights are set at the factory and generally do not require adjustment."
I also used google and found several posts on HK PRO forum indicating HK pistols are regulated or sighted-in at the factory but no citation or source is documented.
When I sent the P7M8 that I previously owned to the factory for installation of Night sights, I was told by the customer service tech the pistol would be sighted-in after the installation.
Lastly, all 5 HK pistols that I have owned were all regulated/ or adjusted because each one shot to point of impact/ aim.
It took me a while to get used to my LEM
Hey guys,
Shot my HK45c for the first time yesterday, and was very pleased except for one thing. The gun has great groupings, but it's hitting consistently low every time.
If I am shooting at the square head of a Paul Howe CSAT Silhouette target at 25 yards I've found that I need to have the front sight post almost completely covering the head. I shoot my HK45 & HK45C single action, cocked and locked.
The gun has great groupings, but it's hitting consistently low every time. I've tried to change sight picture and holds, but I'm hitting a few inches low every time.
There are two possible explanations. One is LEM (already mentioned) can promote trigger jerking to shooters not used for this trigger.
Second is POA/POI relations. Factory HK sights are sighted in to (more less) use dot on front sight as POA (cover target with the dot). For those used to POA at top of front sight blade or even "pumpkin on the post" type of POA it will look like POI is low all the time.
I'd say 90% LEM issue. The LEM has a truly nasty habit of bringing out and exaggerating any trigger manipulation issues. I did the same thing with my HK45 and am now doing it once again with the P30 since having gone back to the HK LEM poison. I bet jumping form a clean 1911 trigger to the LEM must be doubly frustrating.
I love the idea behind the LEM. No safety, no pull variation ... but the execution truly sucks donkey balls. Maybe we could all harass Geiselle into making a drop in SSA trigger for the P series.
I'd say 90% LEM issue. The LEM has a truly nasty habit of bringing out and exaggerating any trigger manipulation issues. I did the same thing with my HK45 and am now doing it once again with the P30 since having gone back to the HK LEM poison. I bet jumping form a clean 1911 trigger to the LEM must be doubly frustrating.
I love the idea behind the LEM. No safety, no pull variation ... but the execution truly sucks donkey balls. Maybe we could all harass Geiselle into making a drop in SSA trigger for the P series.
I lol'd at that last sentence. But What I was doing was staging the trigger, and letting it hit the minimum reset point and staging my follow up shots. I want to say its the V1 LEM. I originally wanted the DA/SA but was convinced into getting the LEM trigger. I don't regret it, but I would like to shoot the DA/SA just to compare. I guess I'll just keep practicing. Thanks for the input. I don't feel so bad seeing as how other shooters have had the same issue.
I lol'd at that last sentence. But What I was doing was staging the trigger, and letting it hit the minimum reset point and staging my follow up shots. I want to say its the V1 LEM. I originally wanted the DA/SA but was convinced into getting the LEM trigger. I don't regret it, but I would like to shoot the DA/SA just to compare. I guess I'll just keep practicing. Thanks for the input. I don't feel so bad seeing as how other shooters have had the same issue.
A lot of folks have some issues with the LEM.. In my case, I recently got rid of a P-30 light LEM, after trying off and on for about a year, and about 2.5k in ammo I gave up...The P-30 just doesn't work for me. I've got 3 other HK's a P-2000, HK45ct (both light LEM) and a HK45t (v3) I shoot the other three much better than I could the P-30. Two things I've figured out, one of which only applies to me. 1. The P-30 is, (IMO) the worst iteration of the LEM, The P2k, and the 45ct have better (IMO) triggers. 2. for me, I couldn't get a solid grip on it, despite it's ergos. and yes, I tried several backstrap/side panel combo's. I can get a solid grip on the other three. When I shoot the LEM, I roll right through it.
Does everyone here who shoots LEM roll through the initial pull?
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Does everyone here who shoots LEM roll through the initial pull?
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I think that's the way it's supposed to go. I still stage it here and there. I've gotten it down to where I am consistent with it. Still not 1911 accurate, but improving.
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I found that in the flat range I was more apt to stage the trigger but once I started doing dynamic drill from draw etc....the roll through lent itself to being more efficient.
I stopped running LEM as if it is a DA, but I don't stage either. It is a hybrid trigger work for me now, and I've had the best results with it.
When I shoot for speed (close distance), I roll it. When I shoot for accuracy (medium to long distance), I stage it.
gtmtnbiker98
05-13-14, 12:39
When I shoot for speed (close distance), I roll it. When I shoot for accuracy (medium to long distance), I stage it.Same here.
I only put a couple hundred rounds through it so I'm still breaking it in and getting a feel for it. But thanks for the input. I guess I'll just have to keep working with it. If I can't get the hang of it, I can always sell it. That's of course worse case scenario.
Call HK USA and order a 5.9mm front sight for your HK45C. I did it and it solved the issue.
Dos Cylindros
05-26-14, 11:04
Call HK USA and order a 5.9mm front sight for your HK45C. I did it and it solved the issue.
You really should have read the entire thread....
Coal Dragger
05-26-14, 19:29
You really should have read the entire thread....
Which one? This one, where everyone assumes the OP is not capable of operating the trigger? Mostly sounds like a lot of bad advice being given to me, the OP could expend thousands of rounds trying to "get used to the trigger" and still be hitting low because the supplied front sight is too tall for the ammo the OP wants to use. Just because the pistol may be sighted in at the factory doesn't mean that the factory standard is exceptionally high for POA/POI proximity. I'd venture a guess it's not, especially for elevation since there are so many end user variables in ammo selection and preferred sight picture.
If I were the OP I would put the pistol on a rest or bags and shoot a few groups, if possible also let another shooter of known proficiency also shoot it in the same manner. If it still hits low for both shooters over a rest or bags, then change out the front sight.
Which one? This one, where everyone assumes the OP is not capable of operating the trigger? Mostly sounds like a lot of bad advice being given to me, the OP could expend thousands of rounds trying to "get used to the trigger" and still be hitting low because the supplied front sight is too tall for the ammo the OP wants to use. Just because the pistol may be sighted in at the factory doesn't mean that the factory standard is exceptionally high for POA/POI proximity. I'd venture a guess it's not, especially for elevation since there are so many end user variables in ammo selection and preferred sight picture.
If I were the OP I would put the pistol on a rest or bags and shoot a few groups, if possible also let another shooter of known proficiency also shoot it in the same manner. If it still hits low for both shooters over a rest or bags, then change out the front sight.
Seems like you and I are the only two that are thinking clearly :happy:
I've had two other shooters shoot the gun, both of which are very good handgun shooters, better than myself We all were hitting low, roughly 3 inches at 10 yards. The groupings were solid, just the elevation is not there.
I haven't tried shooting from a bench rest yet. I'll do it my next trip to the range. If that can't fix it, I'll get into contact with HK USA.
Coal Dragger
05-27-14, 11:15
If you're up to it, shoot your groups off the bags at both 10 and 25 yards. They'll give you a better idea of what is going on if shot at both distances, it is possible the bullet could still be climbing a bit in relation to the sights at 10 yards, and not be as low at 25 yards...although at 3" low at 10 yards I'd expect to see impacts still at least that low at 25 yards if not lower.
My pistols in .45ACP with adjustable sights that are zeroed at 25 yards to the top of the front sight will be maybe 1" low at 7-10 yards if memory serves just because the bullet is low on it's arc at the closer range. My new HK45 that is 3.5-4" high at 25 yards using a center hold shoots a little bit over the top of the front sight at 7-10 yards maybe 1.5" high...which would be perfect for me were it doing that at 25 yards. I have a background in bullseye competition so a 6-o'clock hold is what I'm used to but that only works well at known distances on targets of known size. So at 25 yards I can take a 6-o'clock hold on an 8" target black and get center hits in the 9-10 rings but I'd prefer to use a center hold on this pistol.
Shot my 45C (DA/SA) this last Tuesday---shot very close to point of aim at 10 yards (thirty feet) off-hand with 230 grain 45 ACP ammo from both Remington (UMC) and Winchester (white box). Just my two cents...
You guys have all given me some good advice, and for that I thank you.
Hate to bump an old thread, but didn't think starting a new one was appropriate...
I contacted HK customer support. After being less than helpful (and friendly) on the phone, they gave me a return authorization number. I packed up the box and waited for the shipping label that never was emailed. After another contact, I was informed that I would have to pay for the shipping because they were unsure if it was a factory defect. After explaining the problem again in detail, they said to send it in and they would check it out. After the debacle at UPS and having to overnight ship guns now, $80 later, the gun is in the mail.
So hopefully HK's customer support comes through and is able to fix the gun. If they say there's no issue, I think it'll be looking for a new home.
Coal Dragger
06-18-14, 20:36
Unless you just really like the stock sights I would look at ditching them. I hated them, so they went away. Replaced with a set of Dawson Precision sights ordered as a set. When you order a sight set from Dawson Precision they have a guarantee that you will get perfect POA=POI, this may not happen with the first front sight but once you get them installed and shoot some groups off of bags at a known distance (they recommend 20 or 25 yards) and take measurements they will then custom machine a front sight to perfectly zero your pistol at no additional charge. If you send them the gun they will do it all in house and return a perfectly zeroed weapon, with a set of sights that don't suck.
I just did my second range session with my new sights on today off of bags at 25 yards with a variety of ammo to come up with an average elevation discrepancy to get a new front sight made. I'll call them tomorrow and let you know how it goes, so far they've been great. The new sights are still loads and loads better than the stock sights were, perfectly serrated faces on the front and rear sights, no glare, contoured and beveled to clear a holster or clothing no problem. The front sight I went with is a fiber optic front that is .125" wide and is their standard .210" tall, the rear is a carry model with a .135" wide notch, plain black serrated face. Looks like by my calculations that I need a front sight that is about .185"-.190" tall to get to a perfect zero now.
Don't sell your pistol just because the factory sights suck balls.
Great info. That's pretty awesome. Please let me know how the new sights work out for you. I'll be browsing their products shortly.
Coal Dragger
06-19-14, 00:11
Other than the point of impact vs point of aim being different than what I personally like, they are great. For someone that likes to shoot the dot, drive the dot, or whatever you want to call it they'd be perfect on my pistol. Bullets literally land right under the red fiber optic dot. For up close go fast stuff that is great, but once you push the distance out you end up covering so much of the target with the front sight post that it is hard to shoot accurately. At least for me. So I'd rather have the bullets impact to the top of the front sight post at distances out to 25 yards, that way I can still reference the front sight on part of the target that isn't covered up by the front sight. As it is my other .45, a Kimber Super Match II that has adjustable sights is zeroed in this manner, and up close bullets land under the front sight anyway because they haven't climbed up to the top of the sight in their trajectory.
The sight picture is so much better with the Dawson's I can't imagine ever going back to the stock sights, and even though I wasn't sure about the fiber optic front vs tritium I have to admit that I am really digging the fiber optic. Guess I'll have to buy a weapon light to identify and engage targets in the dark. Boo-freakin'-hoo. In defense of the fiber optic, even in dim lighting conditions it's still popping out for my eyes until it gets dark enough you might want to identify a threat before shooting anyway.
Here are some before and after photos, hopefully helpful to you.
That's how I'd prefer the sights too, to be held under the target, not directly over the POA. I hate having the target obstructed by the sights. I think I'll be ordering a set of Dawson Sights and doing some work. I think I'd go with the Fiber rear sights too, seeing as my eyes aren't the best anymore. That fiber front though really does pop out. I like it. I've never replaced handgun sights before though, so how difficult of a project would this be to undertake?
Coal Dragger
06-19-14, 11:45
Dawson has excellent tutorial videos on sight installation both front and rear. The sights will include aluminum drift punches, the rear sight will be seated with one with a nylon insert in the tip, the front sight takes one contoured to match the dovetail and sight blade. You'll need a bench vise, some wood to pad the jaws, some masking tape, and a triangle needle file. The HK slide is oddly shaped so it's a bitch to get clamped in the vice, it'll probably rotate a bit until it stops when you start tapping the old sights out. Aside from that just take your time and carefully fit the sights to the slide dove tails by trial and error. Tap tap, file a little, tap a little, file a little more. Took me about 2 hours to install mine.
As for rear sights, I like the plain rear because it makes the front sight pop out. Three dot arrangements are too busy for me. You can test it out by using some electrical tape on the rear dots of a three dot setup to see if plain black with a dot up front works for you.
Again, solid advice. Thank you. I just wouldn't trust my own hands to do that kind of filing to that expensive of a gun. I saved up a lot of money over a long time to get it, and I'd hate to mess up something on the slide. If it was a beater Glock or XD, etc, I wouldn't feel so bad. Those are 1/3 of the cost of the HK.
I will try the tape over the 3 dots. I've just gotten so used to the 3 dot sights. I do have a Sig 226 with the contrast sights, and I much prefer that. I'm way more accurate with those sights than the 3 dot. If Sig made the contrast sights with tritum or the fiber optics, I'd be all over Sig right now.
Coal Dragger
06-20-14, 11:05
It's worth trying to see if you like the sight picture before ordering either sight set.
If you don't trust yourself to do the install, then pay the $$$ to send the slide or the whole gun to Dawson and have them do it for you. I strongly considered that option myself. If you were to screw anything up it would most likely be the sights from removing too much material. I never touched the slide with a file on my pistol.
I imagine too that any slide damage as a result of modification would void any warranty on the pistol.
Coal Dragger
06-20-14, 14:45
It is possible. Keep in mind that the only reason at all that you would file on the slide of your pistol is to correct a rolled over edge on the slide dovetail for the front sight, and only on one tiny little part of the underside of the dovetail on one side. As it turns out on the HK slide this isn't needed at all since the entrances to the dovetail appear to be beveled from the factory and aren't sharp. So they won't drag on the sight as you try to install it, and don't need to have that edge broken. I never touched the slide with a file. The sights themselves are a softer steel than the slide, and will not damage anything either. The slide will damage the sights before it being the other way around.
At any rate I called them today to run calculations on what height of front sight I need..... and my original estimate was correct according to their calculations matching mine. So a .190" tall, .125" wide fiber optic front will get made up as soon as they can work it into a CNC machine.
Soon after getting my HK45C, I converted to light LEM and had Heinie Straight-8s installed.
It has always shot like this.
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx113/rhinowso/Misc/2cfde5a9.jpg
Coal Dragger
06-21-14, 20:37
That's my preferred sight picture as well, and what I'll hopefully end up with here shortly. I probably would have tried Heinie's but they're perpetually out of stock and they don't offer different height front sights to adjust elevation. As far as I know they pretty much approximate the standard factory front/rear height ratio. My pistol was shooting 3.5-4" high at 25 yards with a .155" tall front sight, the math told me I needed about a .185-.190" tall front to bring that impact down. The Dawson set has a little bit taller rear sight according to their site, but the front sight is a full .210" tall and that has the pistol averaging 2.75" low at 25 yards. Given a sight radius of 6.56" that comes out to needing .020-.025" taken off the front sight to get where I want it to be.
With the four loads I tested, that will put everything within .75" of shooting to the top of the front sight. I tested 230gr Winchester White Box (-3.5"), Speer 230gr Gold Dots (-3.0"), a reload consisting of a 230gr Rainier HP over 8.6gr HS-6 that is +P equivalent (-2.5"), and lastly Hornady Critical Duty 220gr Flex Lock HP +P (-2.0"). The Speer and Hornady loads both gave very good accuracy, although the Hornady was more impressive putting four rounds into an elongated hole with horizontal stringing given the gale force winds I tested in. That load is hot too. Noticeably more energetic than even my warm reloads.
I read through the thread and I don't think it's anything beyond what the first reply was. It has to be the shooter.
Based on what you said It doesn't sound like Hk is going find anything different and you've already made your mind up to sell it. My impression is that you're trying to justify selling it by hoping there's something wrong.
Coal Dragger
06-22-14, 01:25
So if you get a rifle or pistol that consistently shoots several inches off point of aim, when other weapons don't display the same tendency it's you and not the sights needing adjustment? Nevermind several other shooters showing the same results. That is not the most logical explanation. Thanks for the chuckle. I suppose scoped sight rifles never need adjustment, nor do those with iron sights then either? I suppose it's me and not the gun when shooting a .454 and 360gr bullets shoot all of 8-10" higher than 240gr bullets...nope no sight adjustment needed there! Shooter's fault!
Mass produced pistols don't get perfectly regulated sights from the factory. The standard height HK45 front sight is .155" tall and .140" wide. As far as I know the factory doesn't ship any of them with a different height although you can buy them. On a gun with a sight radius of 6.5" inches .010" of sight change = 1" different POI at 25 yards. Most shooters may not notice or care if the gun shoots high or low at that distance, many of them never venture beyond the 7-10 yard line where it makes virtually no difference. I guess I'm really picky given my background in bullseye competition, but I do notice that discrepancy and find it unacceptable.
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