View Full Version : The home defense rifle in action.
Mauser KAR98K
05-14-14, 11:50
Better than a shotgun in the house.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/05/13/this-armed-home-invasion-couldve-ended-tragically-but-under-homeowners-bed-was-an-item-that-gives-the-anti-gun-crowd-nightmares/
Good job, Mr. Haith.
I bet that the oxygen thief doesn't attempt to rob another home, if he lives.
SilverBullet432
05-14-14, 11:57
He might sue.... After all, he has to make a living somehow, right? :sarcastic:
Better than a shotgun in the house.
Not likely.....
The homeowner reportedly hit the intruder in the stomach, causing him to flee the home before collapsing in a nearby daycare.
A stomach blast with 9 pellets of 12g 00B and he would not run away.....
Too bad he didn't have Mk 262 ammo. There'd have been no fleeing the scene.
(BTW... where's are fellow member who proclaimed the AR as a toy for him and said not one case of an AR defense usage existed?)
Not likely.....
A stomach blast with 9 pellets of 12g 00B and he would not run away.....
Shotgun is a piss poor home defense choice. Not better than carbine in any category... Capacity, flash, recoil, accessories, penetration/overpenetration... NOT ONE category does the Shotgun win. Now this guy probably didn't have the optimal ammo... and a gut shot is not guarantee of anything with either weapon.
Mauser KAR98K
05-14-14, 12:05
Not likely.....
A stomach blast with 9 pellets of 12g 00B and he would not run away.....
I disagree.
Modular, light weight, shorter, and correct rounds to prevent over penetration (wasn't reported if some had), the AR is better. If they run, even being shot, the threat to my family and me is over, unless they want to try again.
Shotgun is a piss poor home defense choice.
LOL......
LOL......
Brilliant retort. Why even own an AR if a bird gun is the answer??
I'd be thrilled to know what it is that a shotgun does better than a carbine?
(I guess if given the choice of a pair of scissors, a ruger 10/22, or a Shotgun, then in that context the Bird gun is the best option.... any AR owner who fights with a bird gun, however, is a Retard)
Brilliant retort. Why even own an AR if a bird gun is the answer??
I'd be thrilled to know what it is that a shotgun does better than a carbine?
(I guess if given the choice of a pair of scissors, a ruger 10/22, or a Shotgun, then in that context the Bird gun is the best option.... any AR owner who fights with a bird gun, however, is a Retard)
Loud stick. Seriously though, I have a carbine loaded with 28 rounds and no shot gun. I know where my priorities and comfort zones are.
I know you are sold on the AR as the only answer to any problem so....
Within the scope of the Home Defense scenario, so do not mention range, accuracy, "But law Enforcement says, yada yada, the 12g shotgun delivers far more devastating wound potential than any carbine. If the recoil is an issue for you, I'll let you speak to my 5'5" wife who can handle a Mossberg 590 loaded with Federal PD132.
With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy.....
But I'm sure you have fancy retort that is wrong. Every criticism of the shotgun on this site, applies to issues other than effectiveness on target......
I have both an AR and Shotgun loaded. I am comfortable with both. I encourage any one to use the biggest bang they can handle.... :D
Federal Flight Control PD132 at 10 yards:
25895
Lucky for him, the bad guy was a bad shot.
Lucky for him, the bad guy was a bad shot.
Absolutely true. No gun is worth a shit if you get killed first.
Shotgun is a piss poor home defense choice. Not better than carbine in any category... Capacity, flash, recoil, accessories, penetration/overpenetration... NOT ONE category does the Shotgun win. Now this guy probably didn't have the optimal ammo... and a gut shot is not guarantee of anything with either weapon.
not even in sound cuncussion. ever been indoor next to a shotgun blast? i mean hell you can tell the shotguns by sound at an outdoor range.
I know you are sold on the AR as the only answer to any problem so....
Wrong. I own shotguns and bird hunt with them. I own bolt guns and shoot .308 / 300WM with them.
the 12g shotgun delivers far more devastating wound potential than any carbine.
Completely wrong. Potentially a slug could come close or even exceed in wounding, but the overpenetration in a structure, monumental flash, and inefficient recoil aren't worth the trade off. I could get 3 Mk 262 off during the cycle of one slug.
If the recoil is an issue for you, I'll let you speak to my 5'5" wife who can handle a Mossberg 590 loaded with Federal PD132.
Recoil is inefficiency in a gun fight. It's lost time when fractions of seconds count.
With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy.....
Completely absurd. Those pellets individually do not have the same properties of a jacketed rifle round. They're more comparable to 9 rounds of 22 Lr.
I encourage any one to use the biggest bang they can handle.... :D
Ok.... I'll grab the 300 Win Mag.
Federal Flight Control PD132 at 10 yards:
I've run Flight control, and it's a good product for LE agencies who've got no option for a Patrol Rifle program. It still falls short of Carbine fire in every category.
I know you are sold on the AR as the only answer to any problem so....
Within the scope of the Home Defense scenario, so do not mention range, accuracy, "But law Enforcement says, yada yada, the 12g shotgun delivers far more devastating wound potential than any carbine. If the recoil is an issue for you, I'll let you speak to my 5'5" wife who can handle a Mossberg 590 loaded with Federal PD132.
With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy.....
But I'm sure you have fancy retort that is wrong. Every criticism of the shotgun on this site, applies to issues other than effectiveness on target......
I have both an AR and Shotgun loaded. I am comfortable with both. I encourage any one to use the biggest bang they can handle.... :D
Federal Flight Control PD132 at 10 yards:
25895
if i had only 1 round of ammunition i might pick the shotgun. however with the laws the way they are, shotguns tend to be longer and more unwieldy. it's not that a well aimed shot isn't possible with both types of firearm, it's how quickly can you mount and shoot? if you're searching and clearing, did you already have the firearm mounted? indoor no less where there are doorways and hallways where you have to work around.
most encounters give you a mere fraction of a second to react. the article said the startled intruder shot first. action is always faster than reaction. since you're behind the curve usually due to reaction timing and stress the followup shot becomes much more important than the initial shot. it's very difficult to do something perfectly the first time. that's why champion shooters practice stages before they execute them for time. in real life there's no dry run (unless you're a special missions unit orchestrating something that's not an impromptu home invasion).
Mauser KAR98K
05-14-14, 13:15
Wrong. I own shotguns and bird hunt with them. I own bolt guns and shoot .308 / 300WM with them.
Completely wrong. Potentially a slug could come close or even exceed in wounding, but the overpenetration in a structure, monumental flash, and inefficient recoil aren't worth the trade off. I could get 3 Mk 262 off during the cycle of one slug.
Recoil is inefficiency in a gun fight. It's lost time when fractions of seconds count.
Completely absurd. Those pellets individually do not have the same properties of a jacketed rifle round. They're more comparable to 9 rounds of 22 Lr.
Ok.... I'll grab the 300 Win Mag.
I've run Flight control, and it's a good product for LE agencies who've got no option for a Patrol Rifle program. It still falls short of Carbine fire in every category.
I disagree with the 9 of .22lr equivalent point. At the ranges at issue and the velocity involved, that is a sledge hammer compared to a ball-ping hammer. In either case, both suck to get in in the nuts with.
All other issues I completely agree with. Recovery and follow shots is the key. Lots of bangs in quick succession makes people cower and run more effectively.
I'd figure the only person who would favor a shotgun in this situation would be Joe Biden.
I think the key to success is not one of AR-15 vs. shotgun, but an issue of "some warning / preparation" vs. "no warning / preparation."
A big problem is a LOT of people grab the gun and search the house thinking "it can't be" and wait until they see an actual person with a a gun to accept that they now have a gun fight. It's hard enough playing catch up, it's even harder when you don't realize the game already started.
With enough warning and preparation you can get away with a .38 revolver, not that I'm advocating that over any other defensive firearm.
decodeddiesel
05-14-14, 13:33
With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy.....
Your comprehension of wound ballistics is suspect at best. This statement is simply false.
Your comprehension of wound ballistics is suspect at best. This statement is simply false.
If you want a suspect understanding of wounding:
Completely wrong. Potentially a slug could come close or even exceed in wounding,
Completely absurd. Those pellets individually do not have the same properties of a jacketed rifle round. They're more comparable to 9 rounds of 22 Lr.
Someone that asserts that a .223/5.56 single projectile is more damaging than a 12g slug.....I have no words for that....
And to claim that nine .33 pellets at 1100+ft/sec are less effective than an actual .22 (.224) .....
My goodness....Good luck...Out.
decodeddiesel
05-14-14, 13:56
You are simply comparing these projectiles by their gross diameter, not by what they actually do when they hit flesh/enter the body. Proper 5.56/.223 ammunition (read Mk262, Mk318, Gold Dot, etc) does NOT just punch a .224 inch hole, especially at close ranges. This is a proven scientific fact. The amount of energy involved and the fragmentation and or deformation of the round in the flesh causes massive internal trauma. I invite you to spend a little time researching the topic, Dr. Martin Fackler's work is a great starting point. I have seen my fair share of people shot with 5.56 and the effects are horrific.
I'm not saying 00 buckshot is ineffective, far from it. However your statement that 9x 5.56 = 1x 00 buck is simply false.
Have a nice day.
it's very difficult to do something perfectly the first time. that's why champion shooters practice stages before they execute them for time. in real life there's no dry run (unless you're a special missions unit orchestrating something that's not an impromptu home invasion).
I'm not disagreeing on what you're saying, but I kinda am. ;)
Why not do a dry run in your home? Why not do several? As an example: Start in the bedroom, have the wife make noises in different parts of the house, hunt the intruder, check angles, lighting, mirrors, cover, concealment, etc. Did you remember to "call 911"? Try different scenarios, like defend in place, hunt the bad guy, whatever, make it fun and interesting. For that matter, have your intruder wear lingerie and make it really fun! :)
If someone breaks into your home what do you expect of your children? Have you gone over this? Have you drilled it? Have you made it into a fun game so they don't mind practicing on occasion?
SIRT guns work great for this type of role playing with the wife, not recommended with the kiddos, as it teaches some bad habits.
As posted once upon a time by someone that this forum held in very high regard before whatever issue caused him to delete his posts.....
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile
LINK (http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-le-duty-use)
Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon-- this can be a significant advantage during urban entry missions and high risk warrant service in closely confined settings.
You know, like home defense situations.... :)
For dealing with one intruder the semi-automatic rifle might not seem like the greatest choice. Many would go to a handgun or a pump shotgun.
However, if you wake up to a noise and see on your home video surveillance system that multiple intruders are entering your back door, now that AR with a loaded 30-round magazine is looking mighty fine.
My go-to home defense gun has always been and will always be an AR loaded with Speer Gold Dot bonded LE 5.56, however I think saying a shotgun loaded with 00 buck, 01 buck, or a good slug is 'a piss poor home defense choice' - is a pretty naive statement. Is it the best choice? Absolutely not. But a piss poor choice? Hardly.
Even though I train 98% of the time with my ARs and pistols, I've run my Mossberg 500 through multiple tactical shotgun courses, and it can be a capable weapon with the right ammo. A good AR offers MANY more advantages (that have been pointed out), but i wouldn't feel inadequate defending my home with a shotgun and good ammo if I had to.
With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy.....
Completely absurd. Those pellets individually do not have the same properties of a jacketed rifle round. They're more comparable to 9 rounds of 22 Lr.
And to claim that nine .33 pellets at 1100+ft/sec are less effective than an actual .22 (.224) .....
You see where the disconnect is, streck? You claimed that a single 00 buck pellet (.33", 54 grain, and 1100 fps) is equivalent to a .224" 62 grain bullet moving at 2800-3000 fps.
A single 00 buck pellet falls somewhere above a single .22LR bullet and below a single .22 WMR in terms of kinetic energy.
Interestingly, nine 00 buck pellets at 1100 fps have the same kinetic energy as a 62 gr 5.56 round at 3100 fps, ~1790J from the 12 ga vs ~1767J from the 5.56.
Also, in the quote you posted, "From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile," notice the conditionals included.
You claimed that a single 00 buck pellet (.33", 54 grain, and 1100 fps) is equivalent to a .224" 62 grain bullet moving at 2800-3000 fps.
No. I. Did. Not.
A single 00 buck pellet falls somewhere above a single .22LR bullet and below a single .22 WMR in terms of kinetic energy.
Interestingly, nine 00 buck pellets at 1100 fps have the same kinetic energy as a 62 gr 5.56 round at 3100 fps, ~1790J from the 12 ga vs ~1767J from the 5.56.
Penetration is not always a function of energy... many on this forum and in this thread state the overpenetration risk of 00B....how can that be true if it's nothing more than a .22lr.....
Also, in the quote you posted, "From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile," notice the conditionals included.
Those are the exact parameters being discussed.....
And the only part that matters in this discussion is: ....will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile. Period.
I invite you to spend a little time researching the topic, Dr. Martin Fackler's work is a great starting point.
Have a nice day.
LINK (http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Martin%20Fackler,%20Stockton%20case.txt)
STOCKTON -- THE FACTS by Martin L. Fackler, MD
To put the 17 January 1989 Stockton incident in context, it must be
compared with past shootings:
1. Only four of the eleven shot at the ESL Co. in Sunnyvale, CA, on 16
February 1988, survived. The weapon was a 12 gauge shotgun.
2. Only eleven of the thirty-two shot in the MacDonalds (24 July 1984, San
Ysidro, CA) survived. Of the three weapons used, the deadliest weapon by far
was a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun.
The overwhelming majority of the media coverage of the Stockton shooting
has consisted of misstatements, exaggerations and inappropriate comparisons.
It is ironic, in this country where firearms have played such a prominent
historic role, that the general knowledge of weapon effects has become so
distorted.
.........................
3. To put the 17 January 1989 Stockton shooting in context:
A. Only four of the eleven shot by Richard Farley at
the ESL Co. in
Sunnyvale, CA, on 16 February 1988, survived. The weapon was a
12 gauge shotgun.
B. Only seven of the twenty-one shot by Christian Dornier on 12 July
1989, in Luxiol, France, survived. The weapon was a 12 gauge
shotgun.
C. Twelve of the twenty shot by Joseph Wesbecker on 14 September
1989, in Louisville, KY, survived. The weapon was an AK-47 rifle
(which he had boug
ht in May or June 1989).
D. Thirty of the thirty-five shot by Patrick Purdy in Stockton
survived. The weapon was an AK-47 rifle.
SHOTGUN -- 33% survived
RIFLE -- 76% survived
Have a nice day.
No. I. Did. Not.
So what did you mean when you wrote:
"With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy"?
Penetration is not always a function of energy... many on this forum and in this thread state the overpenetration risk of 00B....how can that be true if it's nothing more than a .22lr.....
Individual 00b pellets don't overpenetrate very much from what I recall, I think they're talking about 12ga slugs.
Those are the exact parameters being discussed.....
And the only part that matters in this discussion is: ....will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile. Period.
And if the intruder has soft kevlar, none of your pellets will get through. We are talking about home invasions, right?
decodeddiesel
05-14-14, 15:08
LINK (http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Martin%20Fackler,%20Stockton%20case.txt)
Have a nice day.
You're obviously not reading my posts, rather taking some sort of defensive stance and looking to get into a pissing match with anyone who has a differing opinion. As I already mentioned:
I'm not saying 00 buckshot is ineffective, far from it. However your statement that 9x 5.56 = 1x 00 buck is simply false.
Personally I am not about to swap out my MK18 clone (which has a 10.5 inch barrel, 30 round magazine, red dot, Surefire light) from under my bed with my 590A1 anytime soon. You do whatever you wish.
So what did you mean when you wrote:
"With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy"?
The creation of permanent would channels and tissue tearing. Holes that leak.
Individual 00b pellets don't overpenetrate very much from what I recall, I think they're talking about 12ga slugs.
I invite you to search on that for yourself. Lots and lots of claims that buckshot over-penetrates.
And if the intruder has soft kevlar, none of your pellets will get through. We are talking about home invasions, right?
Better start using a .338 Lapua for home defense just in case they come in with plates.
You're obviously not reading my posts, rather taking some sort of defensive stance and looking to get into a pissing match with anyone who has a differing opinion. As I already mentioned:
Let's review the genesis of this thread:
The home defense rifle in action.
Better than a shotgun in the house.
In the article is written that the intruder was shot once in the stomach with a .223/5.56 (we have no idea what kind of ammo). My responses are based on the idea that there is no way that outcome demonstrates AR superiority.
Butthurt ensues.
decodeddiesel
05-14-14, 15:16
Also if we're really getting down to the nitty gritty, high quality 5.56 is a far better performer than 7.62x39 which is what Dr. Fackler referenced in his article.
decodeddiesel
05-14-14, 15:19
Let's review the genesis of this thread:
.
In the article is written that the intruder was shot once in the stomach with a .223/5.56 (we have no idea what kind of ammo). My responses are based on the idea that there is no way that outcome demonstrates AR superiority.
Butthurt ensues.
I called you called out about a ludicrous claim that to match the effectiveness of one round of 00 buckshot you would have to fire 9 rounds of 5.56.
I see one person getting butthurt here, and it aint me.
Like I already said, you keep your shotgun and we'll keep our rifles.
He was referring to any ball ammo as being ineffective by design. I don't think anyone here would choose M193 or M855 as their defensive round. At least I would hope not...But in the real word of ammunition performance, we shoot 200 pound deer with 30 caliber specialized hunting ammunition designed to cause the most damage and still watch game run for 10s to a hundred yards or more after even very good hits.....
It is ridiculous to think that a 200 pound man will always be instantly incapacitated by much smaller bullets.
I see one person getting butthurt here, and it aint me.
I look forward to referencing the OP as a shining example of AR effectiveness.
I've got a box of antlers here that say 12g Winchester Supreme Ammo is no joke in my Marlin Slugmaster. Almost all of them dropped dead where they stood. One rather large buck managed to get a few yards before giving up the ghost.
Not likely.....
A stomach blast with 9 pellets of 12g 00B and he would not run away.....
Yes, likely. The SG is pretty far down on the list as a CQB weapon of choice.
C4
Moose-Knuckle
05-14-14, 15:47
I think the key to success is not one of AR-15 vs. shotgun, but an issue of "some warning / preparation" vs. "no warning / preparation."
A big problem is a LOT of people grab the gun and search the house thinking "it can't be" and wait until they see an actual person with a a gun to accept that they now have a gun fight. It's hard enough playing catch up, it's even harder when you don't realize the game already started.
With enough warning and preparation you can get away with a .38 revolver, not that I'm advocating that over any other defensive firearm.
THANK YOU!
This one went off the rails from the onset, good grief . . . :suicide:
Like many here, I own many different platforms. I live in a densely populated area, if I lived on some land in a rural setting as a lot of my family does a carbine would be my first choice. But until I can escape suburbia a G17 with a 630 lumen white light and an OEM 33rd mag loaded with Speer GD 53617 are the ticket for me. YMMV.
I know you are sold on the AR as the only answer to any problem so....
Within the scope of the Home Defense scenario, so do not mention range, accuracy, "But law Enforcement says, yada yada, the 12g shotgun delivers far more devastating wound potential than any carbine. If the recoil is an issue for you, I'll let you speak to my 5'5" wife who can handle a Mossberg 590 loaded with Federal PD132.
With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3" hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy.....
But I'm sure you have fancy retort that is wrong. Every criticism of the shotgun on this site, applies to issues other than effectiveness on target......
I have both an AR and Shotgun loaded. I am comfortable with both. I encourage any one to use the biggest bang they can handle.... :D
Federal Flight Control PD132 at 10 yards:
25895
Limitations of the SG in a room clearing environment:
1. Length. You really have to know what you are doing to properly shorten them up to clear corners.
2. Capacity. Lot less rounds.
3. More difficult to attach a white light and optic too.
4. Hard to reload quickly.
5. Shooting at targets with friendlies close by (hostage scenario).
6. Over penetration (00 Buck and slugs do not fragment).
7. Less reliable than an AR or pistol (even pumps). We have seen many people short stroke pump guns in live fire shoot houses when surprised.
Most all well versed .Mil firearms instructors will tell you that an AR15 or Pistol is a better choice than a SG for room clearing.
You are of course welcome to like what you like and choose the gun that best fits your needs, but I wouldn't say that it is as good of a choice as an AR.
C4
Most all well versed .Mil firearms instructors will tell you that an AR15 or Pistol is a better choice than a SG for room clearing.
I don't think that tactics was the actual discussion....
I've got a box of antlers here that say 12g Winchester Supreme Ammo is no joke in my Marlin Slugmaster. Almost all of them dropped dead where they stood. One rather large buck managed to get a few yards before giving up the ghost.
Same here. I go for brachial plexus as much as possible. Been very good for me.
Moose-Knuckle
05-14-14, 17:44
Not my intention to jump into the AR vs. shotgun debate, but permit me to comment on these two points.
Limitations of the SG in a room clearing environment:
1. Length. You really have to know what you are doing to properly shorten them up to clear corners.
1. I would hope that members who are pro AR for HD are running SBRs for this very reason, there are a lot of shotgun guys here who run SBSs. If you have a 20" or even a 16" barrel you're going to have to get creative with your maneuvers and run a sling. An exposed barrel poking out from behind a corner gives away too much real estate for a bad guy to grab and attempt a disarm.
3. More difficult to attach a white light and optic too.
3. With modern accessories attaching a white light on a shotgun has never been easier. I run a SF 623LMG on one of mine.
Certainly seems a good advocate for at least useing good ammo in the AR15, and also a few well aimed shots, not one. I think one of the most profound yet simple things I learned in a class was your are not shooting some one 1,2, or 3 times, but until they go down, even if thats 7 rounds. I also wonder if this is a good application for .300blk and its expanding ammo options?
I commend the victim on shooting the intruder regardless of the terminal ballistics.
decodeddiesel
05-14-14, 20:39
I think one of the most profound yet simple things I learned in a class was your are not shooting some one 1,2, or 3 times, but until they go down, even if thats 7 rounds.
This was what we were taught in the 101st from '04 and onward. COM and engage until the target goes down, period.
I will admit that aside from breaching and employing non-lethals, I have no other formal training with a shotgun. I have however had a great deal of formal training with the AR FOW.
SeriousStudent
05-14-14, 21:16
Some folks in this thread need to lower their temperature, and calm their posts. You can do it for yourself, or Mods/Staff can do it for you.
MountainRaven
05-14-14, 21:30
On-Topic: Am I the only one who thinks that it's silly he didn't want his face to be shown, but didn't mind showing off all of his tats? He could have put a shirt on, at least.
Off-Topic:
As posted once upon a time by someone that this forum held in very high regard before whatever issue caused him to delete his posts.....
LINK (http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-le-duty-use)
You know, like home defense situations.... :)
This same expert also stated that for home defense, he would choose a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buck if he were defending a single entry point - that is, sitting behind the bed with the muzzle pointed at the bedroom (or bathroom) door, waiting for a stranger to open the door up. Anything else, and he preferred a carbine, as I recall. He even cited Jim Cirillo and NYPD's Stake Out Unit and their experience with the M1 Carbine, with which they experienced an extremely high number of one-shot stops. (All of them, in fact - if memory serves.) And it is important to recall that the chief thing you are attempting to do in a defensive situation is to stop someone doing whatever negative activity they are engaged in as quickly as possible - death is not desired, but whether the threat lives or dies is irrelevant.
That being said, I don't think a shotgun is a bad choice. If you spend most of your time at the range busting clays with an over/under or semi-auto (or a single-trigger side-by-side), buy an automatic shotgun, load it with buckshot and slap a white light on it (and an AP Micro if you can). If you spend most of your time at the range with a carbine or a handgun, you're probably better off with a carbine or a handgun. You don't want to be learning a new manual of arms in the middle of a firefight.
Better than a shotgun in the house.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/05/13/this-armed-home-invasion-couldve-ended-tragically-but-under-homeowners-bed-was-an-item-that-gives-the-anti-gun-crowd-nightmares/
What I got out of the Blaze article is that the rifle worked.
1) It's good that the homeowner was not injured.
2) It's good that the police apprehended the suspect.
I have only investigated 3 incidents where a homeowner shot a suspect with a shotgun and 2 incidents where a suspect was shot with a rifle, so I have insufficient data to post a qualified opinion on which is a better home defense weapon. I defer to those with a lot more first hand experience.
Over the past 30 years I have attended courses on the use of the carbine and shotgun in both open and CQB environments. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds out of both weapons. I still would not say that one platform or the other is preferable for home defense.
For the record, I have a shotgun with a weapon mounted flashlight for home defense.
Mo_Zam_Beek
05-14-14, 22:43
Random thoughts that may be worth noting:
- I live in a very (politically) red area, a very competent defense attorney and I had this conversation, her comment was - 'don't do anything to make my job harder. Understand that the jury isn't going to be composed of gun guys that understand that you kept shooting them until they hit the floor b/c that is when they were no longer a threat. Don't use a weapon that is not common to them and their general level of firearms knowledge'. YMMV
- 00 buck most likely isn't going to penetrate soft BA
- I have a Vang 590 with a trit FS, an SF integrated light, a side saddle, a Davis a Speed Feed carefully loaded out a sleeve of Federal LE 133 00 Buck and 4 slugs. It sits in the safe. I keep a cruiser ready 6933 with a G2, Aimpoint, and a 20 rnd mag of Speer bonded 62 grn soft points next to the bed at night.
- With an SBR you can run it one handed, and open a door that swings into you with the weapon mounted
- I don't think there is any thing fundamentally wrong with an SG with 00 buck, but I do think there are better options
YMMV
IF YOU WANT TO PISS IN THE SUGAR SMACKS- DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE. THIS ISN'T AN AR15 v. JOE BIDEN BOOM STICK THREAD.
I suspect had the home owner used the rifle in such a manner like (aiming at his chest region and not simply firing one round into the abdomen) the story would have been different. Regardless the perp was struck, and left the scene which in essence is what we really want- to stop the threat.
I suspect had the home owner used the rifle in such a manner like (aiming at his chest region and not simply firing one round into the abdomen) the story would have been different. Regardless the perp was struck, and left the scene which in essence is what we really want- to stop the threat.
I would only add that it was probably also a case of the homeowner trying to get "first hits" and wasn't even thinking about specific placement.
Sometimes gun folks make a lot of unrealistic assumptions. They really think they are so on top of things that they will be locked, loaded and perfectly set up to intercept the bad guy (complete with spare mags, a cell phone having already called 911, fighting knife and a power sports drink) while the bad guys are still outside trying to defeat the lock on the door.
Typically nobody gets that kind of lead time. This guy was lucky in that he found the BG before the BG found him and he brought along the right tools even if he may have been somewhat lacking in mindset.
The average gun owner who trains believes he is now and will always be prepared and will always enjoy a critical advantage over anyone who presents themselves as a threat. But when they hear a noise downstairs a lot of them still make basic "can't be really happening" assumptions even when they are looking for "possible" home invaders.
This means they have an additional mental hurdle to get over the "holy crap there is actually a guy with a gun in the living room" surprise before they can attempt to respond to the threat.
I actually agree. And in fact I would go so far as to say that I wouldn't have left the room. I would have taken a defensive position and waited for him for exactly the reason you stated.
I would only add that it was probably also a case of the homeowner trying to get "first hits" and wasn't even thinking about specific placement.
Sometimes gun folks make a lot of unrealistic assumptions. They really think they are so on top of things that they will be locked, loaded and perfectly set up to intercept the bad guy (complete with spare mags, a cell phone having already called 911, fighting knife and a power sports drink) while the bad guys are still outside trying to defeat the lock on the door.
Typically nobody gets that kind of lead time. This guy was lucky in that he found the BG before the BG found him and he brought along the right tools even if he may have been somewhat lacking in mindset.
The average gun owner who trains believes he is now and will always be prepared and will always enjoy a critical advantage over anyone who presents themselves as a threat. But when they hear a noise downstairs a lot of them still make basic "can't be really happening" assumptions even when they are looking for "possible" home invaders.
This means they have an additional mental hurdle to get over the "holy crap there is actually a guy with a gun in the living room" surprise before they can attempt to respond to the threat.
Grand58742
05-14-14, 23:47
To me, it's about rapid follow up shots. And if I'm dealing with two (or more) perps breaking into my home which seems to be the trend these days, I want to have the ability to put a minimum of two rounds per target in the least amount of time. Now even if I supposedly only need one 00 shell per target from a shotty, I still have to take into account recoil, cycling the weapon, bringing it back on target and reengaging. And I know for a fact right now I can get off four aimed AR shots right where I want them faster than I can two shotgun rounds.
Sure, training can overcome this, but there will still be that time gap in a shotgun vs an AR.
I actually agree. And in fact I would go so far as to say that I wouldn't have left the room. I would have taken a defensive position and waited for him for exactly the reason you stated.
If you have no family to secure and no possessions you are willing to hang your ass out in the wind for, then that is a perfectly sound defense plan with the odds stacked heavily in your favor. Everyone needs to assess their individual situation and develop the best plan they can.
Personally I'm out the window with my suppressed MP5 wearing a shinobi shozuku and will neutralize his support team (aka getaway driver) and then stalk him from behind through the same place he made entry thus taking him completely by surprise.
Nobody expects the MP5 ninja. It just doesn't happen anymore. People think they are extinct.
To me, it's about rapid follow up shots. And if I'm dealing with two (or more) perps breaking into my home which seems to be the trend these days, I want to have the ability to put a minimum of two rounds per target in the least amount of time. Now even if I supposedly only need one 00 shell per target from a shotty, I still have to take into account recoil, cycling the weapon, bringing it back on target and reengaging. And I know for a fact right now I can get off four aimed AR shots right where I want them faster than I can two shotgun rounds.
Sure, training can overcome this, but there will still be that time gap in a shotgun vs an AR.
Again, not advocating anything...but a Benelli M1S90 is a dream shotgun when it comes to recoil and cycle. Even with an extended magazine tube I can empty it all on target before the first shell case hits the floor. And it's not because I'm scary special with a shotgun. You can absolutely ass rape a room full of goblins with a Benelli.
But again it really isn't the main issue, if you have certain advantages in your favor and are prepared, you can dominate your house with a carbine, shotgun or handgun with devastating results.
Grand58742
05-15-14, 02:50
Again, not advocating anything...but a Benelli M1S90 is a dream shotgun when it comes to recoil and cycle. Even with an extended magazine tube I can empty it all on target before the first shell case hits the floor. And it's not because I'm scary special with a shotgun. You can absolutely ass rape a room full of goblins with a Benelli.
But again it really isn't the main issue, if you have certain advantages in your favor and are prepared, you can dominate your house with a carbine, shotgun or handgun with devastating results.
My theories stem from 20 plus years of working with AR pattern rifles and comfort level. I would never say a shotgun isn't the best choice in a HD situation and again training and equipment can overcome. A Benelli is fine weapon along with other autoloading types. Expensive yes, but no more than a good AR with a good optic and light. But when it comes down to tossing a long gun on one's shoulder in a high stress situation, you fall back on training. And how many people (not just on here) are generally up to speed on defensive shotgun uses and continually practice same? And how many can effectively employ a shotgun in that situation versus an AR?
A shotgun, even at close range, is still a weapon that requires technique and skill and is completely contrary to the great urban myths of "rack the slide and scare 'em" or "you ain't even gotta aim that sucker, just point and click." And an AR with an RDS is a lot more effective (in my opinion) as a defensive weapon and a lot more forgiving to the average Joe and Jane.
You can absolutely ass rape a room full of goblins with a Benelli.
This made me laugh. Thanks.
A shotgun, even at close range, is still a weapon that requires technique and skill and is completely contrary to the great urban myths of "rack the slide and scare 'em" or "you ain't even gotta aim that sucker, just point and click."
This is a fact.
No argument from me on most of this. But, I believe in his case was alone in his crib. My house has a layout that in order to reach the rooms, you have to travel down the fatal funnel. No other way about it.
This is exactly why people should have a plan and some situational awareness. As for the Ninja MP5 master, I'll leave that alone. Too many shades of Minnesota orange for me.
If you have no family to secure and no possessions you are willing to hang your ass out in the wind for, then that is a perfectly sound defense plan with the odds stacked heavily in your favor. Everyone needs to assess their individual situation and develop the best plan they can.
Personally I'm out the window with my suppressed MP5 wearing a shinobi shozuku and will neutralize his support team (aka getaway driver) and then stalk him from behind through the same place he made entry thus taking him completely by surprise.
Nobody expects the MP5 ninja. It just doesn't happen anymore. People think they are extinct.
............. people should have a plan and some situational awareness.
This is the nuts and bolts of it. Great comment.
Moose-Knuckle
05-15-14, 03:49
If you have no family to secure and no possessions you are willing to hang your ass out in the wind for, then that is a perfectly sound defense plan with the odds stacked heavily in your favor. Everyone needs to assess their individual situation and develop the best plan they can.
Truth. If I had a child in a bedroom on the other side of the house or on a different floor all together no way in **** would I shelter in place and lie in wait.
Personally I'm out the window with my suppressed MP5 wearing a shinobi shozuku and will neutralize his support team (aka getaway driver) and then stalk him from behind through the same place he made entry thus taking him completely by surprise.
Nobody expects the MP5 ninja. It just doesn't happen anymore. People think they are extinct.
Some how I am not surprised to learn that all the while the membership here on M4C debates the usage of either a carbine or shotgun for HD Steyr quietly sits by with a canned SMG at the ready! :ph34r:
Sorry, couldn't find any pics with John McClane running a suppressed MP5 so Casey Ryback will have to do . . . :jester:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/segalmp5_zpsbf746c61.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/segalmp5_zpsbf746c61.jpg.html)
Moose-Knuckle
05-15-14, 03:55
You can absolutely ass rape a room full of goblins with a Benelli.
Someone needs to contact Fabbrica d'Armi Pietro Beretta and have them utilize this for the next Benelli ad campaign!
Truth. If I had a child in a bedroom on the other side of the house or on a different floor all together no way in **** would I shelter in place and lie in wait.
This is my situation.
We are in the process of building an addition to our house. When it's complete, our kids will be on a different floor, on the other end of the house. With regards to my HD plan, this new layout has really tipped over the apple cart.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't think that tactics was the actual discussion....
Clearing your home is all about tactics and techniques. So it 100% applies.
C4
Not my intention to jump into the AR vs. shotgun debate, but permit me to comment on these two points.
1. I would hope that members who are pro AR for HD are running SBRs for this very reason, there are a lot of shotgun guys here who run SBSs. If you have a 20" or even a 16" barrel you're going to have to get creative with your maneuvers and run a sling. An exposed barrel poking out from behind a corner gives away too much real estate for a bad guy to grab and attempt a disarm.
Not needed. A 14.5" NFA SG (which I have) is a full 2 inches LONGER than a 16" AR with the stock collapsed. Yes, a 10.3" AR is easier to use in a tight spaces, but a 16" AR will work just fine.
3. With modern accessories attaching a white light on a shotgun has never been easier. I run a SF 623LMG on one of mine.
The ideal position to mount a white light is 12" O'clock followed closed by the 11 and 1 positions. Further down the list is the 6 O'clock, 3 and 9 positions. The AR allows for this the easiest (along with a RDS).
C4
T
Some how I am not surprised to learn that all the while the membership here on M4C debates the usage of either a carbine or shotgun for HD Steyr quietly sits by with a canned SMG at the ready! :ph34r:
When I said that a SG is pretty far down on the list of guns to choose for HD, I wasn't exaggerating. I have run my MP5 clone through CQB schools before and it is simply awesome. The easies gun to maneuver in tight places, fast accurate hits on target and reliable. A far superior choice to the SG.
C4
1. I would hope that members who are pro AR for HD are running SBRs for this very reason, there are a lot of shotgun guys here who run SBSs.
That is the very first thing that went through my mind. I wondered if he had an SBR and if he did, how that would be spun in the news. I'm guessing no SBR in this instance. ... and assume range ammo? Didn't they say it went in his mid section and came out his shoulder and then pretty much a full size hole in wall?
What I noticed though is how he showed himself crouching down and sticking his head around the corner.... is that a good idea? I'm thinking most bad guys are going to shoot low more often than shoot high.... is it a good idea to crouch down like that and put your head, lungs and heart into a compact package like that as it will likely be in the general direction of even an accidentally fired round?
I feel like if I just make a Stephen Seagal face, I won't need a firearm to defend my home.
Grand58742
05-15-14, 12:00
Ya'll do realize by taking the shotty out of play for home defense would ruin the lives of 95% of gun store commandos that live on being able to convince folks that the sheer sound of a slide racking makes criminals wet their pants?
Whiskey_Bravo
05-15-14, 12:10
LOL......
Biden? Is that you?
I believe SG is good home defense weapon based on the fact it is affordable to most people. Not everyone can afford a wiz bang SBR. Lots are just trying to maintain home and keep family happy and healthy.
No argument from me on most of this. But, I believe in his case was alone in his crib. My house has a layout that in order to reach the rooms, you have to travel down the fatal funnel. No other way about it.
This is exactly why people should have a plan and some situational awareness. As for the Ninja MP5 master, I'll leave that alone. Too many shades of Minnesota orange for me.
To state the obvious you have already evaluated your funhouse and established a sound defensive plan. Everyone else just needs to do the same. If you have thought of it already, you could even prep the position a little bit. A few spare mags, flashlight and phone in the shelf of a nick nack table nearby (or something similar) will be less you have to remember if you get woken out of a deep sleep.
I believe SG is good home defense weapon based on the fact it is affordable to most people. Not everyone can afford a wiz bang SBR. Lots are just trying to maintain home and keep family happy and healthy.
Something is better than nothing, something better is better than something. Acquire accordingly as your means permit.
skijunkie55
05-15-14, 13:28
This is my situation.
We are in the process of building an addition to our house. When it's complete, our kids will be on a different floor, on the other end of the house. With regards to my HD plan, this new layout has really tipped over the apple cart.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yep. Now you get to have your wife trained for a HD scenario as well as instructing your kids on what to do... You leave the room to secure the kids, does she come with or assume a defensive position in your room and get the police on the phone? Depending on your children's ages, how do you work with them? Keep their doors locked at night so at least a would be intruder has to start kicking in a door and buy you a little time? So many different scenarios can play out when you have family members in different areas of the house. You hope it'll never happen but you have to be prepared.
I'm just gonna add this...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000000348_zps2fe23d8a.jpg
I believe SG is good home defense weapon based on the fact it is affordable to most people. Not everyone can afford a wiz bang SBR. Lots are just trying to maintain home and keep family happy and healthy.
I am not sure that anyone is saying that a person has to buy an SBR. Any gun is of course better than NO gun so that is a given.
Personally, I believe a person CCW gun is probably the best all around option for most.
C4
Whiskey_Bravo
05-15-14, 13:56
I'm just gonna add this...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000000348_zps2fe23d8a.jpg
Those are only good for home defense if you dual wield them with the SG across your back as backup. Short of that you might as well have a sling shot.
We have the same tile.... :p
I'm just gonna add this...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/000000000348_zps2fe23d8a.jpg
Those are only good for home defense if you dual wield them with the SG across your back as backup. Short of that you might as well have a sling shot.
If I put the SG on my back, where the hell do I put the katana?
If I put the SG on my back, where the hell do I put the katana?
Only one?
Grand58742
05-15-14, 14:34
If I put the SG on my back, where the hell do I put the katana?
Something to be said about the psychology of wielding a sword in home defense:
http://www.newser.com/story/69468/johns-hopkins-student-kills-burglar-with-samurai-sword.html
Whiskey_Bravo
05-15-14, 15:02
If I put the SG on my back, where the hell do I put the katana?
If you have to ask............ You obviously cross them along your back, so that you can retrieve one with each hand when fighting off the hordes in CQB
If I put the SG on my back, where the hell do I put the katana?
On your left hip, where all Katanas normally are. :p
On your left hip, where all Katanas normally are. :p
Not if you are gonna be climbing out windows or rappelling. Have you not seen any of the Sho Kosugi movies?
If you have to ask............ You obviously cross them along your back, so that you can retrieve one with each hand when fighting off the hordes in CQB
Crossed katana inhibit diving and rolling techniques which are critical to successful shinobi methods.
Cincinnatus
05-15-14, 18:05
Nobody expects the MP5 ninja. It just doesn't happen anymore. People think they are extinct.
Be sure and say that in the voice of Michael Palin:
25931
Be sure and say that in the voice of Michael Palin:
25931
That was my original inspiration, but now I'm thinking more along the lines of Orson Well's from the original "War of the Worlds" or at least James Earl Jones.
Crossed katana inhibit diving and rolling techniques which are critical to successful shinobi methods.
Just be carful your not facing Indiana Jones.
Moose-Knuckle
05-15-14, 19:17
Not needed. A 14.5" NFA SG (which I have) is a full 2 inches LONGER than a 16" AR with the stock collapsed.
With the plethora of NFA SGs out there, there are quit a bit of small envelopes.
Saigas with folders, 870P MCS AOWs, etc.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/sbssaiga_zps40058893.png (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/sbssaiga_zps40058893.png.html)
My ranch house defense weapon is a Colt 6933. My back up to that is a 1982 S&W Model 66 with 158 grain .357 Federal Hydra-shok hollow points. After that my fall back weapon is a Mossberg Cruiser 500 with buckshot. The shotgun would be used last since I don't want to mess up the interior of my place.
Grand58742
05-15-14, 19:48
With the plethora of NFA SGs out there, there are quit a bit of small envelopes.
Saigas with folders, 870P MCS AOWs, etc.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/sbssaiga_zps40058893.png (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/sbssaiga_zps40058893.png.html)
Nobody likes a show off
Moose-Knuckle
05-15-14, 19:58
Nobody likes a show off
I just plucked that pick from the www, that is Travis Haley.
Grand58742
05-15-14, 19:59
I just plucked that pick from the www, IIRC that is Travis Haley.
I thought it looked like him, but I wasn't sure.
I mean, you could be Travis Haley for all I know...you aren't are you?
Moose-Knuckle
05-15-14, 20:07
I thought it looked like him, but I wasn't sure.
I mean, you could be Travis Haley for all I know...you aren't are you?
That's a big negative sir.
Grand58742
05-16-14, 03:17
That's a big negative sir.
I hope you know I wasn't serious.
Moose-Knuckle
05-16-14, 03:35
I hope you know I wasn't serious.
Yeah . . . I figured.
With the plethora of NFA SGs out there, there are quit a bit of small envelopes.
Saigas with folders, 870P MCS AOWs, etc.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/sbssaiga_zps40058893.png (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/sbssaiga_zps40058893.png.html)
I have the 870P USSS edition. Yes, there are all kinds of things now, but they are not all that common place IMHO. The hardcore SG guys typically stick to the traditional stuff.
C4
Comparing deer to men is stupid. For the record, I've killed deer with single shots that fell where they were hit with 55 gr. V-max and 70 TSX. I've killed no less than a dozen that didn't take a step with a 7mm.
I know plenty of Illinois deer hunters that loose deer with slugs.
What does this have to do with home defense?
I choose an AR. Here is why:
Light weight, low recoil, doesn't over-penetrate, my light, laser, and Aimpoint are all easily attached. I can get off about five rounds in the time it takes to fire and rack a 12 ga for follow up. I can reload 28 additional rounds instantly.
It's shorter and faster to get in action. I also have my CCW pistol in reach and a full-size G17 with light/laser/night sights in the drawer next to me before I go to sleep.
If I think I am going to need a gun, I want the pistol in case of a failure. Thus far I've just killed varmints and pests trying to make their way into the chicken pen, snakes, etc. Hopefully that's all I ever have to shoot.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
decodeddiesel
05-17-14, 18:49
Comparing deer to men is stupid...
Good post, couldn't agree more.
I think that was your 556th post, was it not? Pretty outstanding timing!
I think the key to success is not one of AR-15 vs. shotgun, but an issue of "some warning / preparation" vs. "no warning / preparation."
This is one of the main reasons we have dogs: Early warning system. When something goes bump in the night, I have a pretty good idea of where to start looking by following the cacophony. So far it's only been a cat and a few racoons that decided to wander in to the porch through the dog door, but there is no doubt they are barking at something specific vs. a strange, distant sound out on the road.
This is one of the main reasons we have dogs: Early warning system. When something goes bump in the night, I have a pretty good idea of where to start looking by following the cacophony. So far it's only been a cat and a few racoons that decided to wander in to the porch through the dog door, but there is no doubt they are barking at something specific vs. a strange, distant sound out on the road.
Yep, my dogs will know long before anyone else if there are other people in the house. One of the best dogs I had was a black and tan who woke me up early one morning on a Saturday because something was wrong in the laundry room. From the way he was going at the door I assumed I had a raccoon or possum in there. Turns out before going shopping that morning my gf had started a load of laundry and once again didn't clean the lint trap and by this time it was as thick as the yellow pages and had started smoking pretty good.
When I opened the door I saw and smelled smoke and as soon as a pulled the lint trap and gave it lots of oxygen it "flamed on" pretty good. Without the warning from the dog I could have had a pretty good laundry room fire going and it might not have stopped there. Even worse was a natural gas water heater tank next to the dryer, I don't even want to think what could have happened if we got a nice cloud of natural gas in the room while a fire was in progress. And of course the natural gas tank was right outside of the wall.
Needless to say, I strongly stressed again the importance of cleaning the lint trap regularly to my gf. Pretty sure my dogs got prime ribs scraps that night along with their regular dog food.
This is one of the main reasons we have dogs: Early warning system. When something goes bump in the night, I have a pretty good idea of where to start looking by following the cacophony. So far it's only been a cat and a few racoons that decided to wander in to the porch through the dog door, but there is no doubt they are barking at something specific vs. a strange, distant sound out on the road.
This.
If there is ever a time where our GSD, who investigates even the slightest sound at night, doesn't deter an intruder that's when we have a problem. That dog gives the best piece of mind I've ever had.
If there ever was a case where our dog doesn't send the BG away with freshly browned pants, it also has the tremendous benefit of giving me time and removing the element of surprise.
I had a response all written out a couple days ago but it seems like I didnt send it.
I choose a carbine over a shotgun for a few reasons. Number 1 is Ive been using the AR/M16 professionally for pretty much my entire adult life. I flat out know it like the back of my hand. I wont dive into most of the many other reasons as I believe they have been covered well. However the one area I will cover is my experience with the terminal ballistics of each.
The 5.56 will mess you up. Period. People bad mouth ball ammo but I have seen M855 drop bad guys with authority with good hits. If you hit bone it makes a real big mess. Ive been a cop for a major metro area for about 7 years now. My department uses 55 grn Federal (TRU?) hollow points. I recently talked with our head rifle instructor and he said every bad guy that we got a good torso hit on has dropped DRT. We also have a rifle shot at 320 yards with an iron sighted Colt 20 inch that dropped a murder suspect in his tracks. A good defensive round to the head is going to remove large pieces of it.
Ive been on a few scenes where someone was shot with buckshot. In my experience buckshot is very effective. However don't believe that it will make up for bad marksmanship. A shot to the stomach is probably going to result in a bad guy being still mobile just like a shot to the stomach with a 5.56. Recently had an old man shoot a home invader in the chest with 12 gauge buckshot. Distance was about 10 feet. The suspect fell down, got back up and ran outside before dropping back onto the ground and passing. You couldn't get a more text book chest shot.
Doc has stated that a round of buckshot creates more damage than any SINGLE round of 5.56. That doesn't mean it kills you any deader. Kind of like saying jumping off a 20 story building is more effective than jumping off a 15 story building. Either way youre done. A 12 gauge might be slightly more effective shot vs shot than a carbine. However a carbine is better in pretty much every other category.
Oh and I can think of two scenes off the top of my head where a homeowner has successfully defended his home with an AR15.
If you want a suspect understanding of wounding:
Someone that asserts that a .223/5.56 single projectile is more damaging than a 12g slug.....I have no words for that....
And to claim that nine .33 pellets at 1100+ft/sec are less effective than an actual .22 (.224) .....
My goodness....Good luck...Out.
Yeah, I caught that, too.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
He was referring to any ball ammo as being ineffective by design. I don't think anyone here would choose M193 or M855 as their defensive round. At least I would hope not...But in the real word of ammunition performance, we shoot 200 pound deer with 30 caliber specialized hunting ammunition designed to cause the most damage and still watch game run for 10s to a hundred yards or more after even very good hits.....
It is ridiculous to think that a 200 pound man will always be instantly incapacitated by much smaller bullets.
Why wouldn't people choose M193/M855? Much cheaper, more plentiful, very reliable, and proven in your gun and mags. How many people not involved with the government in some way are putting 500+ rounds of their top of the line ammo through their gun? Not very many. Judging from posts most people buy a couple boxes here and there when they're available. I understand M193/M855 isn't the absolute best bullet design but it's good enough, and much better than the Gold Dots in my GLOCK, if I were to be so lucky to have my AR in hand when perps call. The case in the OP was a case of the ammo being effective for him, whatever ammo he had. Even with a poor hit. Shoot threat, threat ceases to be a threat. No other ammo could have provided a better outcome for the homeowner.
Why wouldn't people choose M193/M855? Much cheaper, more plentiful, very reliable, and proven in your gun and mags. How many people not involved with the government in some way are putting 500+ rounds of their top of the line ammo through their gun? Not very many. Judging from posts most people buy a couple boxes here and there when they're available. I understand M193/M855 isn't the absolute best bullet design but it's good enough, and much better than the Gold Dots in my GLOCK, if I were to be so lucky to have my AR in hand when perps call. The case in the OP was a case of the ammo being effective for him, whatever ammo he had. Even with a poor hit. Shoot threat, threat ceases to be a threat. No other ammo could have provided a better outcome for the homeowner.
First, any ammo is better than no ammo. With that said, folks would be better off with some form of Hornady TAP, Speer GD, Federal T1/T3, BH's MK262, Magtech MK262.
You don't need to stock 5K of it (unless you fear a prolonged uprising/civil unrest). 1-2 mags will suffice for most I think.
C4
First, any ammo is better than no ammo. With that said, folks would be better off with some form of Hornady TAP, Speer GD, Federal T1/T3, BH's MK262, Magtech MK262.
You don't need to stock 5K of it (unless you fear a prolonged uprising/civil unrest). 1-2 mags will suffice for most I think.
C4
Sure, 1-2 mags is plenty. But don't you want to shoot a bunch through your gun and mags first? Then since you've spent that money you need plenty of extra put back so you don't have to blow $4-500 more in a few years proving something else in your gun. Seeing as how lottoish the odds are non LEO will ever use a carbine to defend themselves most would probably be better served by using that extra money to sign up for a handgun course.
folks would be better off with some form of Hornady TAP,
C4
LINK (http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf)
Maybe things have changed....
Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.
Sure, 1-2 mags is plenty. But don't you want to shoot a bunch through your gun and mags first? Then since you've spent that money you need plenty of extra put back so you don't have to blow $4-500 more in a few years proving something else in your gun. Seeing as how lottoish the odds are non LEO will ever use a carbine to defend themselves most would probably be better served by using that extra money to sign up for a handgun course.
Shoot a bunch? I am not sure how many rounds that is. Yes, you need to function check your AR with whatever defensive ammo you choose. Ideally 50+ rounds, but honestly, if there is a major issue with the ammo and your AR, you will find it in the first 20rds (realistically first 2rds).
So what we are talking about is an extra 20rds @ $1 dollar a round. Not a lot of money.
I am not an odds man when it comes to guns and gear selection. If we say that the odds of a civilian using a gun to defend themselves is less than 1%, that is based off of our CURRENT situation. Tomorrow could bring an EMP blast/natural disaster/ETC and the world as we know it has changed. Now there is a 30% chance (and growing) that you will use a gun to defend your family/home.
I put the odds in my favor for I do not know the future.
C4
LINK (http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf)
Maybe things have changed....
The FBI is big on shooting people through glass and other barriers. So that is correct, that the TAP will not be that effective. So that is why FBI prefers barrier blind rounds. There is a trade off though. These rounds act like pistol caliber hollow points that are bonded. That means they do not fragment (typically). So if you are worried about missing and killing the person in the next room or putting a bullet into your neighbors house, you might want to reconsider barrier blind rounds.
For me, I shoot very well and have a high level of training. I live in a brick home and my neighbor are acres away. So I use barrier blind rounds. I also stockpile 75gr TAP, MK262 and Brown Tip ammo.
YMMV.
C4
Read the Powerpoint, the TAP shots were not through barriers.....
Read the Powerpoint, the TAP shots were not through barriers.....
Yes I read it. Did you read the parts where the FBI said that the TAP round performed to manufacturers specifications but did NOT meet FBI reqs? That is what I am talking about.
At the bottom, did you read it? "Shot placement is EVERYTHING!" The best designed bullet in the world will not kill someone if you do not make a good hit.
Just as an FYI, USA Delta used the 75gr TAP for a long time and have killed bad guys with it.
Would I use the 55gr TAP? No. Is the 75gr TAP (Specifically the T2) the end all be all? Absolutely not.
C4
Just as an FYI, USA Delta used the 75gr TAP for a long time and have killed bad guys with it.
Any references on the combat effectiveness?
Just to add: I'm pretty sure the OP was a bait post or an attempt at humor and this thread lived up to it. :)
After all this, for disclosure, I have an AR-15 and 590 available for HD use. I load my .223 with 62gr Sierra Gameking and the 590 has Federal PFC154....
Any references on the combat effectiveness?
Just to add: I'm pretty sure the OP was a bait post and this thread lived up to it.
I talked to a member that used it! Yes, it worked just fine (as long as there was no barrier involved).
C4
Mauser KAR98K
05-29-14, 08:05
Any references on the combat effectiveness?
Just to add: I'm pretty sure the OP was a bait post or an attempt at humor and this thread lived up to it. :)
After all this, for disclosure, I have an AR-15 and 590 available for HD use. I load my .223 with 62gr Sierra Gameking and the 590 has Federal PFC154....
Yeah, kinda...8)
I use the Hornady TAP .75grs as well when I can find those expensive things. Have had about 80 for two years now and hopefully next month will cycle them out for new ones. My main HD carbine is sighted in at a 100 meters with them, irons at 25-300 meters.
Cool discussion I spurred. Still think the AR is far better to use these days, especially with suppressors and now the new interpretation of the pistol brace of by the ATF. Folks can now make shorter weapons at less the cost now (minus the up charge on the brace) and just get the can. Soon I will be building my real HD weapon.
One of my academy instructors shot a hostage taker at across the room distance with a 75 grn TAP (might have been M262 but I'm about 95 percent sure it was TAP) out of a Colt Commando. Like I said above..... it will remove large pieces of your head.
Mauser KAR98K
05-29-14, 21:56
I use the 75 great TAP as I live in the country and I want that extra energy further out. If I was living back in surburba, 55 great or even lighter. No over penatrating
Very relevant to my interest.
I'm constantly on the look out for articles pertaining to use of AR for HD.
At the moment I have two mags (with Winchester 223 45g varmint rounds) and these discussion really have me thinking of selecting better rounds.
thanks for the share.
sorry Admin/ Moderators for resurrecting this thread.
I'm trying not to start another "AR Home Defense Discussion."
It's easier to find using Google Search: "AR+Home Defense+M4Carbine.net" this way.
Just asking the SME and those who've been there and done that.
So I zero'd my midlength for the Adjusted 25 yard targets for a 100 yard zero (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?96955-Zero-Targets-Optimized-for-Red-Dot-Style-Optics-(Aimpoint-EOTech-etc-))
For Home Defense, did I just made it hard for me and wife, during that critical response time when the adrenaline kicks in, that we may mistakenly use the red dot and confuse ourselves that it will be POA=POI?
Or, should I just re-zero it back to plain 25 yards (or even just to 50 feet) POA=POI?
thanks
Mauser KAR98K
08-10-14, 22:20
sorry Admin/ Moderators for resurrecting this thread.
I'm trying not to start another "AR Home Defense Discussion."
It's easier to find using Google Search: "AR+Home Defense+M4Carbine.net" this way.
Just asking the SME and those who've been there and done that.
So I zero'd my midlength for the Adjusted 25 yard targets for a 100 yard zero (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?96955-Zero-Targets-Optimized-for-Red-Dot-Style-Optics-(Aimpoint-EOTech-etc-))
For Home Defense, did I just made it hard for me and wife, during that critical response time when the adrenaline kicks in, that we may mistakenly use the red dot and confuse ourselves that it will be POA=POI?
Or, should I just re-zero it back to plain 25 yards (or even just to 50 feet) POA=POI?
thanks
I've changed to 100 yard zero with my Aimpoint. This is not just for the unsavorery humans that might want to do harm against me, but I also live in a rural area and I have critters that need a .223 solution. For the woods and my back and side yard, 100 yards is where it is at.
Just start practicing with POA hold overs for close in stuff.
MorphCross
08-11-14, 00:46
The other choice would be to have your Back up sights set up for close in work. When you light up your target with the weapon mounted light the Back up irons or black crosshairs of a scope come into sharp focus. Red dots will wash out against white walls especially on high output lights.
If you have the opportunity to, try shooting at 25 yards with the red dot on a silhouette and see were all your shots end up in relation to center of mass. They should be low but by how much depends on your ammunition.
yes, I maintain my ironsights zero to 25 yards.
will try with the light.
If you want a suspect understanding of wounding:
Someone that asserts that a .223/5.56 single projectile is more damaging than a 12g slug.....I have no words for that....
And to claim that nine .33 pellets at 1100+ft/sec are less effective than an actual .22 (.224) .....
My goodness....Good luck...Out.
http://files.forensicmed.webnode.com/200000760-d9374da314/HomecarbineWP.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/hardline_42/Ballistics.jpg
thanks for that reference
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