View Full Version : 223 reloading questions
Hello,
I have a couple of questions and would appreciate help.
1. I am loading up some 55gr FMJBT's from Hi Tech ammo with their pulldown WC844. I have 16 BHF BCM and 16 inch Centurion barrels. I am getting groups from about 1.5 inches to 3 inches at 50 yards. I want to get decent accuracy but this is just going to be plinking and short range training ammo (less than 50 yards). I want decent velocity and accuracy, but don't need or want velocity M193 velocity. What is a good velocity to be around for 55gr out of a 16 inch barrel assuming that it is decently accurate and cycles reliably?
I got decent groups in the 24.0-25.0gr range. The velocity around 2730fps for 24.0 to 2840fps for 25.0gr.
Bit of a weird anomaly. I got 2865fps for 23.0gr. But I am using a chrony so who knows?
2. I have pulled 62gr Fusion bullets that I would like to load up with demil (pulled but unfired) 5.56 brass. The brass needs to be neck sized, but I am not sure as to how to go about doing this. Can I do this with my FL resizing die or should I get a neck sizing die?
Thank you.
markm will be along shortly to give the real dope.
I haven't chronoed my .223 loads but I am using 24.5 gn of WC844 with 55 gn machine pulled bullets that I have run through a .223 bullet sizing die to fix them up as much as possible and I am getting about 3 MOA accuracy with them from 16" and 14.5" 1/7 barrels.
I always use a full length resize for my semi auto .223 loads. I'm not sure it's truly necessary, but I do it anyway.
JMHO, YMMV
For plinking, I suggest doing load testing in .5gr increments and choose the one that gives you the results you are looking for. For my plinking ammo, I did one 5 shot group with each powder charge and loaded up 1k of the one that was the most consistent/accurate. I didn't care about super duper accuracy; 3moa was fine for me. My 55gr FMJ's run around 2,900fps from a 16" barrel and the brass will last at least 4-5 loads. Don't quote me on this, but I believe in spec M193 is around 3,100fps from a 16" barrel.
Yes, you can neck size with a standard FL die without lube. I do it all the time, but I don't suggest it unless you know what you're doing as you can get brass stuck in the die relatively easy. Given, I do it on brass that has already been through this same die, but if match grade accuracy/consistency isn't a concern, it doesn't really matter. If you do attempt it, don't adjust the die to the point that it bumps the shoulder. Leave it ~.030-.040 away to keep the case walls out of the FL sizing part of the die.
Your chrony should be fine. Mine has always worked and until the new radar chronograph comes out I will use it. As far as your loads are concerned you should be able to keep them at 3moa or less. So at 50yds that would be 1.5 inches or less. You have to decide what you want for velocity, but 2850+ should be good to go.
You can neck size the brass. Remove the sizing ball and decapping stem. Just pull the whole unit from the die. Run the sizing die until it contacts the shell holder. Then back it off one turn. Lube the case neck with imperial dry neck lube. This will allow you to see how much of the neck you are sizing. Run the brass through the die. You will see how much if any of the neck is being sized by the dry lube left on the neck. Slowly adjust the die until you get the desired amount of the neck sized. I always stop about .030-.040 above the shoulder.
So most of the neck is being sized just a small portion is not. If you have any questions just ask. The imperial dry lube is not necessary but you do need something so you can see how much of the neck you are sizing. Im sure somethin like mica or graphite powder would work similarly.
Remove the sizing ball and decapping stem. Just pull the whole unit from the die.
I do mine with the expander ball installed, but decapping pins are removed as soon I get new dies. If you don't use the expander ball, the neck will have more than the desired ~.004 neck tension.
I do mine with the expander ball installed, but decapping pins are removed as soon I get new dies. If you don't use the expander ball, the neck will have more than the desired ~.004 neck tension.
Yes WAY more. If you run a "normal" sizing die with no expander ball, you'll have too much neck tension. I took my expander ball out, because they SUCK. But I run a separate RCBS Neck expander die. (this is less abusive to the brass, and yields less case stretch) You'll shave bullet jacket material when seating bullets if you don't expand the neck a little after resizing. That's just the way a resizing die works.
I do, however, leave the decap pin in my sizing die. It's a back up check that the primer flash hole is free of any media pins and debris.
3000 fps is probably a good approximate velocity for a 16" When I loaded 55 gr practice ammo, I liked it to shoot 3100 fps out of a 20" barrel. Hot... but not chew up your brass hot.
(oh... and for AR loading... use a case gauge. Nothing sucks more than loading ammo that won't feed reliably because you estimated what the shoulder bump should be)
Howdy,
When I load .223 plinking ammo I use BL(C)2 powder and load just hot enough that the gun will cycle 100% of the time.
Several people posted that 3 MOA is fine for plinking/ short range training ammo and I have to disagree. I keep my plinking ammo under 2 MOA with pulled 55gr or 62gr bullets.
Even at 2 MOA you will get a 1" group from a bench rest at 50yds and if you are doing any "run & gun" drills a 3 MOA will effect your practice.
Most of my non-target stuff is about 1 MOA out of a 16" barrel.
Paul
I do mine with the expander ball installed, but decapping pins are removed as soon I get new dies. If you don't use the expander ball, the neck will have more than the desired ~.004 neck tension.
I have used standard dies without the ball and have never had to much neck tension. When you measure neck tension in thousandths of an inch is going about it the wrong way. With variations in brass measuring it by the thousandths gives no useful information. Neck tension is a measurement of the force it takes to seat the bullet. I have seen bench rest reloading set ups where they actually Guage the neck tension. If they do not fall in there target range they use those as foulers.
I have never had any bullets that when seated this way shaved the jacket. If you measure the inner neck diameter with and without the expander ball. The difference can not be measured with calipers. At least with my rcbs dies. You need to use a micrometer. The difference is far less than a thousandth.
I will see if I can get my hands on a set of micrometers that can make this measurement again. I only own outside diameter micrometer. I will use the same brass that is new in the same die and report back.
I just ran 2 new never fired from the same lot of wichester brass through the same die. With and without the expander ball. I got a measurement of 0.2205 on the piece the ball was left in place and 0.2205 on the piece without the expander ball. Im not saying this to discredit anybody just to show that with my dies there is no difference my calipers can measure. This is only a sample of one so really is not going to work for everyone. I do know quite a few people that have removed the expander ball with no negative effects noted.
I will still try to get my hands on an inside diameter micrometer to give more accurate measurement.
This may be die specific. Back before I loaded nicer match style ammo, I'd get a lot of fine jacket shavings. It may be that the Dillon die squeezes the neck down more than other brands.
This may be die specific. Back before I loaded nicer match style ammo, I'd get a lot of fine jacket shavings. It may be that the Dillon die squeezes the neck down more than other brands.
I have never had fine shavings or any shavings. It could very well be die specific. I know the measurement my calipers gave was not really acccurate due to size. When I did the same thing with a micrometer they were right at around .222, but they were both virtually identical.
I've noticed that military brass, which I like, varies in thickness within and between makers. That factor plus varying tolerances within dies no doubt contributes to different observations from one guy to the next. One outfit makes carbide expander balls that reduce drag. Some bench rest vendors show specialized die sets and gizmos for rifle reloading--these may interest some. A machinist could make a custom expander or reduce the diameter of an existing one.
I think the other variable not discussed is variation in bullet diameter. I've loaded 55 gr Hornady SPs with nary a shaved jacket. Picked up some 65 gr Sierra GKs this past weekend and had lots of shavings. Mixed brass and obviously same die.
Thank you guys for the information. It has been helpful.
I will load some more up some more at 25.0, 25.5 and 26.0 and go out tomorrow. I am getting ejector swipes at 2900fps and above. Should I be concerned about this? For now I am just going to use one gun to check for accuracy. It is a pain switching back and forth. I was getting decent groups on my first test at 26.0 and 26.5 but I don't want to run these loads near max.
I do have a hornady headspace gauge and bumped the shoulders back 0.003.
I was getting some shavings so I started using the lyman M-die and crimping with the lee FCD.
I checked out the brass that had bullets and powder pulled. It looks like I can just run it through the dillon die with the expander ball and get the neck and case mouth in good shape.
I will report back tomorrow with results. Thanks for the help.
I loaded up some rounds.
25.8gr WC844 CCI450 55gr I got a 1 inch 6 round group at 50 yards. Velocity was betweeen 2940-2987.
26.2gr WC844 CCI450 55gr Had 1.5 inch 5 round group at 50 yards. Velocity was between 2982-3007.
I think I am going to go with the 25.8gr.
Once a bunch of these are loaded up I will start on the Fusion 62gr with CFE.
Thanks for the help.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.