View Full Version : That "Optimal" handgun (my list)
We all have one, all the things we wish existed in a single handgun to fit our needs/wants. For me, I narrowed it down to:
Double stack/high cap 9mm
polymer frame
1911-like ergos
1911-like "SA" trigger
striker fired
1911 - like thumb safety
Note: Things like reliable, accurate enough for SD/Duty/courses, good sites etc are a given and not required in such a list in my view as they apply to all and any handgun I'd consider.
There's only two handguns I can think of that get very close to the above:
The Wilson Spec Op 9: (http://wilsoncombat.com/new/handgun-spec-ops-9.asp#.U3-VXS-7k0w)
The spec op 9, being a Wilson product, is a well made and damn fine handgun. It's only major failure in terms of my ideal list is it's not striker fired. Being a Wilson product of highest quality, it comes with a Wilson price tag, but that's not part of the list. Quality costs $$$ in my view and I'll pay Wilson prices for Wilson quality. I have not owned this fire arm, but have had one for e few days on loan, and it's all that you'd expect from this Wilson product. It's as if a 1911 and a BHP had a baby, and modern fit finish and materials came out. Many didn't "get" this gun when it came out (many a lengthy debate was had...), I did from the minute I heard of it and could see why some would want it and was envious of my buddy who got his hands on one.
The M&P FS 9mm with thumb safety (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766223_-1_757954_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)
The major issue for me with the above is the trigger is far from 1911-like, but it meets everything else on the list. Adding an Apex APEX M&P Aluminum Forward Set Sear and Trigger Kit (https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid54.html) gets mighty close (or "close enough for gubment work") to that 1911 SA trigger feel and when added to the total cost, it's pretty much the "perfect fit" to my list. I can think of various minor tweaks I'd like to see (like more aggressive grip, etc), but none deal breakers to ownership.
Is there another gun I missed that makes the list? What's on your list and which handgun gets the closest to it?
I personally like the FNS hand guns, once again the trigger needs improving and unlike the M&P there is no aftermarket option yet. Full ambi features are also a plus.
steve462x0
05-23-14, 14:23
My choice is Glocks
Gen4 G26
Gen4 G19
Gen4 G21
Gen3 G23
G30SF
And I still like my M&P 40c
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-23-14, 15:07
Ditch the striker requirement and get a High Power!
MadAngler1
05-23-14, 15:37
At the NRA convention, I was really impressed by the custom shop CZ pistols that were modified to be single action only. They can make a P07 or P09 in the same fashion, per the rep at the NRA convention. It seems people like their P07s here, so I really want to try one for myself.
To be frank, I thought long and hard about the Wilson Spec Ops 9, but I learned to use my Glock 17. It's still not a 1911, but it gets the job done nicely and a grip force adapter certainly helps.
Will, why the need for a thumb safety?
You will add a whole range of options if you ditch that requirement.
PPQ
FNS
jasonhgross
05-23-14, 16:01
Why reinvent the wheel. The following carry frequently or exclusively the glock 19:
Greg Hamilton
John Holchen
Larry Vickers
Kyle Defoor
Ken Hackathorn
No offense, and with respect, I call this a clue. I carry a glock 19. Remember:
1. MINDSET
2. Tactics
3. Skills
4. equipment
Ditch the striker requirement and get a High Power!
I'd get the Wilson if I totally dropped the striker rec.
Will, why the need for a thumb safety?
You will add a whole range of options if you ditch that requirement.
PPQ
FNS
No need per se, but I like the SA (or SA-like) trigger and thumb safety set up of the 1911. I have a M&P FS 9 "MA approved" DA now. PPQ, HKP30, etc all excellent choices, but I'd take the M&P with Apex DCK added all day if DA and no thumb safety was the "it" I want.
M&P with FSS is pretty much your ticket then.
My personal requirements aren't that strenuous.
9x19
Single trigger action (SAO, SFA, LEM, etc) in the 4-6lb range.
Holds at least 15 rounds.
No taller than 5.5".
No manual safeties.
I can get Dawson .125 front and rears for it.
Glock, M&P, PPQ, USP LEM, and P30/P30L V1 all make the cut.
Why reinvent the wheel. The following carry frequently or exclusively the glock 19:
Greg Hamilton
John Holchen
Larry Vickers
Kyle Defoor
Ken Hackathorn
No offense, and with respect, I call this a clue. I carry a glock 19. Remember:
1. MINDSET
2. Tactics
3. Skills
4. equipment
Because I, like many, am not a Glock fan. What made me leave my beloved 1911s, was the M&P. Two, the "list" is what I/we want from a handgun that may, or may not exist. Wish list so to speak. If Glocks meet everything you'd want on your personal list if you were waving magic wands, drive on. The M&P as outlined above, essentially meets all on my persona wish list.
On the bold: I don't confuse needs with wants. I/we need, a reliable fire arms that goes bang when we need it to, ammo, and enough training with it to be competent with it.
This is my list of wants, vs needs. If I/we can get both, then win win.
M&P with FSS is pretty much your ticket then.
My personal requirements aren't that strenuous.
9x19
Single trigger action (SAO, SFA, LEM, etc) in the 4-6lb range.
Holds at least 15 rounds.
No taller than 5.5".
No manual safeties.
I can get Dawson .125 front and rears for it.
Glock, M&P, PPQ, USP LEM, and P30/P30L V1 all make the cut.
Agreed, as much to see if anything else existed I didn't know about (for sake of interest) and seeing what others list looks like. It's striking to me, that that particular M&P config is the only one that exists as far as I know from the major manufacturers, unless I missed one. I think that's very telling.
Those are not recs, but wants, and it appears at least one gun fits them all as close as I could ask for at this time. We all have wants right? :cool:
Why reinvent the wheel. The following carry frequently or exclusively the glock 19:
Greg Hamilton
John Holchen
Larry Vickers
Kyle Defoor
Ken Hackathorn
No offense, and with respect, I call this a clue. I carry a glock 19. Remember:
1. MINDSET
2. Tactics
3. Skills
4. equipment
Hackathorn also said that with apex parts, the M&P is the best combat pistol, or something to that effect. It was in person, not over the internet.
So besides following the band wagon, can you elaborate on why you'd choose a Glock 19 over an M&P?
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-23-14, 17:40
Why reinvent the wheel. The following carry frequently or exclusively the glock 19:
Greg Hamilton
John Holchen
Larry Vickers
Kyle Defoor
Ken Hackathorn
No offense, and with respect, I call this a clue.
When asked directly some of those instructors will tell you that the reason they carry the G19 in classes is because it is popular among students and law enforcement. A month back Hackathorn told the class I was attending that recent manufacture Glocks were no more reliable than 1911s and that he recommended the Beretta 92, Walther PPQ or HK P30 if you wanted an out of the box 9mm you could trust. Another of many "clues."
You'll find a lot of guys who ran 1911s and want to convert to Tupperware buy the M&P with the safety. That's exactly what I did. I don't need the safety but it helped me buy a familiar design (1911 safety albeit the M&P's is slightly further back) and I do like the safety to use as a reference point for the strong hand thumb (especially on the draw while just getting on the gun at first) and I like the extra leverage it gives you on the pistol when shooting single handed. Only drawback is I cannot operate the slide release without breaking my grip if trying to release it with the firing hand as the safety obstructs access.
I ran the FSS for about 1000 rounds and I actually didn't like it. Sold it and went back to the DCAEK. Now if I'd just sold my 1911s and recently started running M&Ps and back then they had the FSS I would've been in heaven b/c it does mimic the 1911 trigger pretty well.
-Jax
Why a striker and why a polymer frame?
What do you think a striker does better than a hammer??
Why a striker and why a polymer frame?
What do you think a striker does better than a hammer??
Strikers don't get caught on things and dont have two trigger pulls.
warpedcamshaft
05-23-14, 20:56
A Glock 19 sized M&P with the walther PPQ's trigger that will hold a 3 inch group at 25 yards out of the box... 15 round magazines and decent functional 10 round magazines for folks who live in "reduced citizen survivability" areas.
Also, optional thumb safety just like the M&P has currently.
A Glock 19 sized M&P with the walther PPQ's trigger that will hold a 3 inch group at 25 yards out of the box... 15 round magazines and decent functional 10 round magazines for folks who live in "reduced citizen survivability" areas.
Also, optional thumb safety just like the M&P has currently.
Curious, then why not just a PPQ with a safety?
Glock 19 is damn near my perfect gun. The m&ps are no slouch by any means either.
The 2 reasons i prefer striker pistols is i don't like manual safeties and i want one trigger pull. The more simple the better, imo. My favorite pistols are Glock's and M&P's in 9mm. I also like polymer since they are lighter. The best 9mm polymer i ever tried was the Caracal C. That is until their unfortunate recall. I will be giving Caracal's another chance when the updated models are released. Great shooting pistols.
I love my 1911's but still enjoy HK and MNP , BOTH AFTER TRIGGER work.
Fwiw, the FNS line of pistols is available with a thumb safety. I'm a full on Glock user, but the "shock" the trigger causes on some of the FS pistols causes me to be less accurate than with the SC models(an issue that I know can be solved). I'm hoping that H&K catches wind of this thread and implements some of these wants into their soon to be released SFP. I think a PPQ with a thumb safety is probably the best out of the box option as of right now. The size of my hands makes an M&P with thumb safety a no go for me.
An optimal pistol for me would be a Glock with a Travis Haley trigger in it, a good set of night sights, extended slide release, whatever grip alteration you want, and a couple thousand rounds...
turnburglar
05-24-14, 02:35
I would love a glock 19, that wasn't a glock 19.
An HK45C variant 3 with a SIG SRT trigger would be *it.* I'd buy three.
My requirements:
9mm High Capacity
DA/SA
Slide mounted Safety w/ Decocker
Able to carry cocked/locked
Polymer frame
Resistant/tough finish
Night sights
My choice:
USP 9mm V/1
KevinC
Crow Hunter
05-24-14, 07:26
A G19 sized Beretta 92G with replaceable front sight. Aluminum frame preferred but I would take a polymer frame.
Guinnessman
05-24-14, 07:38
Will,
Rumor has it, the new "Striker Fired" HK will have one variant with a thumb safety. I read that rumor recently on HKPro, and I am anxiously awaiting the release of the so called new HK. Maybe it will be revealed soon and meet your requirements.
I grew up with 1911s and they are my favorite self loading pistol. I've been shooting them for decades. The pistol I find I like almost as much is the PPQ. It fits my hand naturally, balances well empty or loaded, has one of the best triggers for an out of the box handgun and is free of any of the bureaucratic clutter found on other modern pistol designs.
I never stopped to contemplate whether or not the PPQ has 1911 type ergos or not. When I bought it, I was looking for a 9mm that I liked. In fact, I started by shopping for a Hi-Power but looked at other pistols as well. The M&P-10 was getting rave reviews at the time and I took a close look at them. Several salesmen wanted me to try the PPQ but I wasn't sure a Walther was what I wanted. But after reading a couple reviews, I finally took a look at the PPQ and liked it well enough to take a chance. It's one of the few smart decisions I've made :). It feels good in my hands, points naturally and I have to make the pistol miss. I don't like to admit this, but I shoot the PPQ better than any other handgun I've tried, including my beloved 1911.
Take a close look at the PPQ. If it's good for one long time 1911 fan, it should be good for another. But whatever handgun you choose, don't go looking for a pistol that's as close to a 1911 as possible, go looking for something you like, something that fits your hand naturally and operating it feels second nature. Don't think about how a pistol feels in your hand or about how it operates. Just get into your zone like you would when concentrating on a shot and just feel the pistol. When one feels right, that's the one you want. That's how I found my 1911. That's how I found my PPQ
Will,
Rumor has it, the new "Striker Fired" HK will have one variant with a thumb safety. I read that rumor recently on HKPro, and I am anxiously awaiting the release of the so called new HK. Maybe it will be revealed soon and meet your requirements.
Interesting! Something to keep an eye out for sure.
Because I, like many, am not a Glock fan.
Word.
The CZ P07 is close for me. If there were more sight options for it out there I'd call that a slam dunk featurewise. Polymer framed so it's light, external hammer to make me comfortable with aiwb carry, 9 mm, reliable, accurate, and a good trigger. Pretty good package, and you can get it for around $500. It's too early to say because I just got mine recently and don't have a lot of rounds through it yet, but this gun has a lot of potential for me.
The PPQ is up there, too. If I wanted a striker fired gun that is what I would get. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable carrying the PPQ aiwb, though, and I can't decide if that's a deal breaker yet. Now that I've seen some M1s around again, I've been thinking about getting one and possibly carrying it strong side.
Wilsons are incredible guns, I'm just not in a position to spend $3K on one, so that's out.
God help me, but I like Sigs. I have to talk myself out of a P226 at least 3 times a year. If I had more confidence that I would get one that wouldn't give me issues with any of the small parts that have been contracted out to the lowest bidder, I would buy one tomorrow.
on your personal list if you were waving magic wands
If magic is involved then my list is impossible to achieve!
I want:
1911 ergonomics
1911 trigger
10mm stopping power
15-18 round capacity
Size of a Walther PPK
Weight of a sig mosquito
If magic is involved then my list is impossible to achieve!
I want:
1911 ergonomics
1911 trigger
10mm stopping power
15-18 round capacity
Size of a Walther PPK
Weight of a sig mosquito
Well now that "magic" would have to change physical laws as we known them. :haha:
Well now that "magic" would have to change physical laws as we known them. :haha:
All right, fine... I'll have to settle for my P30 V1. If I could just get a 1911 style trigger in the thing I'd be set for life!
I grew up with 1911s and they are my favorite self loading pistol. I've been shooting them for decades. The pistol I find I like almost as much is the PPQ. It fits my hand naturally, balances well empty or loaded, has one of the best triggers for an out of the box handgun and is free of any of the bureaucratic clutter found on other modern pistol designs.
I never stopped to contemplate whether or not the PPQ has 1911 type ergos or not. When I bought it, I was looking for a 9mm that I liked. In fact, I started by shopping for a Hi-Power but looked at other pistols as well. The M&P-10 was getting rave reviews at the time and I took a close look at them. Several salesmen wanted me to try the PPQ but I wasn't sure a Walther was what I wanted. But after reading a couple reviews, I finally took a look at the PPQ and liked it well enough to take a chance. It's one of the few smart decisions I've made :). It feels good in my hands, points naturally and I have to make the pistol miss. I don't like to admit this, but I shoot the PPQ better than any other handgun I've tried, including my beloved 1911.
Take a close look at the PPQ. If it's good for one long time 1911 fan, it should be good for another. But whatever handgun you choose, don't go looking for a pistol that's as close to a 1911 as possible, go looking for something you like, something that fits your hand naturally and operating it feels second nature. Don't think about how a pistol feels in your hand or about how it operates. Just get into your zone like you would when concentrating on a shot and just feel the pistol. When one feels right, that's the one you want. That's how I found my 1911. That's how I found my PPQ
I really have nothing to add, just wanted to make sure everybody got another chance to read this, the most to the point post on this thread.
Strikers don't get caught on things and dont have two trigger pulls.
Only shotguns have two triggers....
Fear not the double action shot...
Only shotguns have two triggers....
Fear not the double action shot...
Ah.....loving the CZ I guess. ;)
Good to see you on here Magsz.
-Jax
Ah.....loving the CZ I guess. ;)
Good to see you on here Magsz.
-Jax
Right back at ya.
Just loving shooting, the hardware is less important than the action...which oddly enough is a fitting statement to add to this thread. :)
Amen. Although I limit myself to one weapon system. KISS = s good thing for me. :)
-Jax
Right back at ya.
Just loving shooting, the hardware is less important than the action...which oddly enough is a fitting statement to add to this thread. :)
As stated prior:
"I don't confuse needs with wants. I/we need, a reliable fire arms that goes bang when we need it to, ammo, and enough training with it to be competent with it.
This is my list of wants, vs needs. If I/we can get both, then win win."
I don't think there's anyone, no matter how focused on shooting and training vs gear (and we all know those far more interested in tacti cool gear vs actually being competent with it...) that does not have preferences they'd be happy to apply, via magic wand to major manufacturer asking you to develop such a thing, to a fire arm.
Am I wrong there?
My optimal would be a p30 in .45 with 13 rounds and a lighter shorter da/sa no manuel safety. I love the size of my p30 but do wish it was in 45 and had a shorter lighter da/sa trigger pull.
...I don't think there's anyone, no matter how focused on shooting and training vs gear...that does not have preferences they'd be happy to apply, via magic wand to major manufacturer asking you to develop such a thing, to a fire arm.
Am I wrong there?
You are correct. The PPQ is as close to my magic wand handgun as I've seen. If they were to wave it again, a PPQ in 45 ACP and 10mm, would suit me fine
Definitely not wrong. Not even close.
I was just pointing out the oddity in this whole "two trigger pulls" thing and the fact that many people sell themselves short because they BELIEVE they dont want something they dont even understand.
Definitely not wrong. Not even close.
I was just pointing out the oddity in this whole "two trigger pulls" thing and the fact that many people sell themselves short because they BELIEVE they dont want something they dont even understand.
Rgr rgr. That of course is a universal truth that applies to pretty much everything we humans are involved with. Tapping into that human trait, you convince people they need what they don't, and the less they understand about the topic ("you don't know what you don't know"...) the easier they are to convince they need it.
That being said, and keeping that universal truth in context, we can have some fun :neo:
You are correct. The PPQ is as close to my magic wand handgun as I've seen. If they were to wave it again, a PPQ in 45 ACP and 10mm, would suit me fine
Why 45 or 10mm?
I don't think there's anyone, no matter how focused on shooting and training vs gear (and we all know those far more interested in tacti cool gear vs actually being competent with it...) that does not have preferences they'd be happy to apply, via magic wand to major manufacturer asking you to develop such a thing, to a fire arm.
Am I wrong there?
I don't know. I enjoy shooting Glock, 1911s, Sig, Beretta, HK, CZ and revolvers. I think QC or parts quality could be better for most companies, but neither of those is a design problem. So I guess I'm also in the shooting is the fun part camp. To me the different idiosyncrasies of the different pistols is part of the fun.
Definitely not wrong. Not even close.
I was just pointing out the oddity in this whole "two trigger pulls" thing and the fact that many people sell themselves short because they BELIEVE they dont want something they dont even understand.
Care to elaborate?
MiamiCracker
05-24-14, 16:56
The PPQ M1 is my 1st handgun. It fits my hand perfectly, accurate. I'm finding it hard to choose another handgun to buy because the PPQ is what I want in a handgun.
My personal requirements:
9x19
Single trigger action (SAO, SFA, LEM, etc) in the 4-6lb range.
Holds at least 15 rounds.
No manual safeties.
Will Mount a MRDS
Threaded Barrel for a AAC TiRant 9S available
So M&P CORE is my pistol.
I fully admit most people will not have a MRDS requirement.
I don't know. I enjoy shooting Glock, 1911s, Sig, Beretta, HK, CZ and revolvers. I think QC or parts quality could be better for most companies, but neither of those is a design problem. So I guess I'm also in the shooting is the fun part camp. To me the different idiosyncrasies of the different pistols is part of the fun.
I enjoy shooting say a good 1911 or M&P with Apex trigger job added then I do any Sig, or Glock, or Beretta. I have preferences, and those preferences will generally improve my shooting as well. That does not mean I wouldn't enjoy the act/process of shooting if that's what I had to work with, and have been in the position where the only fire arm I had to shoot was X, and I still shot it because I just enjoyed it. My grandfather found a 16g duck gun in the woods and gave it to me as a kid. I enjoyed shooting with the bold action long ass shot gun.
But, I'd much prefer something else.
I have an M&P with the Apex goodies on it although mine does not have the thumb safety. It is about as 1911ish as you can get with those requirements if you get the version that has the thumb safety.
Why 45 or 10mm?
45 ACP simply because I love shooting 45 caliber bullets. My two favorite handgun calibers are the 45 ACP and the 45 Colt. One of my favorite rifle calibers is the 45-70. There are few things in this world that are as American as a 45 caliber bullet.
Another favorite is the 357 Magnum. The 10mm puts a cartridge with similar performance to the 357 in a self-loading pistol for hunting small to medium game
I enjoy shooting say a good 1911 or M&P with Apex trigger job added then I do any Sig, or Glock, or Beretta. I have preferences, and those preferences will generally improve my shooting as well. That does not mean I wouldn't enjoy the act/process of shooting if that's what I had to work with, and have been in the position where the only fire arm I had to shoot was X, and I still shot it because I just enjoyed it. My grandfather found a 16g duck gun in the woods and gave it to me as a kid. I enjoyed shooting with the bold action long ass shot gun.
But, I'd much prefer something else.
I don't think there's one "right" way. And I was not at all trying to imply that my way is better for anyone other than me. I think everyone should have a base of experience/knowledge and whatever works for him or her from there, simply does. I was just pointing out that I'm not looking for the perfect pistol or perfect set of features because for me, in a way, it exists in every quality pistol out there.
Living in a ban state a G19 is the way to go, double stack high cap pre-ban mags. The G19 fits a lot of criteria and easily modded and upgraded with a wide array and availability of aftermarket performance and factory parts. I've owned Wilson Combats and love every aspect of them but the G19 is still my go to, 10 years strong. Just recently picked up a gen 4 G26 and that has filled the summer CCW slot to it's fullest extent. 10rnd mags with a G19 15rnd as back up, very hard to beat in this state.
Strikers don't get caught on things and dont have two trigger pulls.
Hahaha.
I've NEVER had or heard of a hammer get caught on anything. Real pistols don't have two trigger pulls, but it seems 99% of everyone on the internet can't have nice things, so ya'll run along and shoot whatever you can get to work.
Nice to see the Glock lemmings arrive.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-26-14, 01:56
We all have one, all the things we wish existed in a single handgun to fit our needs/wants. For me, I narrowed it down to:
Double stack/high cap 9mm
polymer frame
1911-like ergos
1911-like "SA" trigger
striker fired
1911 - like thumb safety
Note: Things like reliable, accurate enough for SD/Duty/courses, good sites etc are a given and not required in such a list in my view as they apply to all and any handgun I'd consider
No one mentioned 2 guns that come to mind.
P7M13: Yep, I'm that guy in the crowd. If you are in the cult, you have to put it out there. Double stack, good triggers, striker fired. I wish and pray for a poly-version for these butt heavy guns, but alas, not so far. No thumb safety, grip safety. On the ergos, I'd make an argument that with its low bore to grip it will have that 1911, low down feeling.
The gun I really think is the closest to what you want is the SIG X5, with the tactical model, single action, the closest out of the box. It's like a 1911 and a P226 got busy and got rid of the worst part of the 1911 (mags) for the best part of the P226 (the mags). SA, ambi safety, beaver tail. Grip is a bit short, 5 inch barrel is a bit long. Double retainer recoil spring for smooth shooting. Doesn't have the 1911s trigger bow and sear set up, so not as crisp, but still pretty nice. Used ones are a bit over $1000 last time I looked (and sold mine). I considered it a poor man's 9mm STI that actually ran ( mags being the major difference). I got seduced by the M&Ps utilitarian set-up. Not striker fired, but doesn't need to be.
I'm still amazed that SW, which has 1911s and M&Ps in house, hasn't done a breeding program between the two.
Hk uspc 9mm with a west german sigs da/sa trigger and p30 or ppq grip texture
As a shooter with extremely small hands, I'd like to see a gun that STARTS with an extremely small grip, as small as you can get it, like say a Kahr P9 grip. THEN add grip panels to make it larger. I'm surprised no one has thought of this. That way anyone can use it, regardless of hand size, instead of three different size backstraps that may or may not work.
Steel frame and slide
No MIM parts
Thick barrel bushing
Frontstrap and backstrap checkering
Fit right for reliability and accuracy
No obnoxious rollmarks or other gaudy markings
Heinie Straight Eight night sights
Perfect clean single-action trigger that breaks just below 4 lbs
Right-side-only thumb safety
Feeds all ammo I've tried
Single stack (if 8+1 rounds won't get 'er done, don't know why the gunfight gods would start smiling on me from round 10 onward)
I have my dream gun as described above -- it's a Dan Wesson Valor.
walker2713
05-26-14, 11:04
A very interesting thread.....
My choice, for carry: Glock 19
My choice, for shooting: Walther PPQ
Whether we like it or not, life is an unending series of trade offs.....
I"m thankful we live in a world...and a country....where we have these kinds of choices, and decisions to make:D
George
jasonhgross
05-26-14, 11:10
Hackathorn also said that with apex parts, the M&P is the best combat pistol, or something to that effect. It was in person, not over the internet.
So besides following the band wagon, can you elaborate on why you'd choose a Glock 19 over an M&P?
Because a glock 19 fits all of my parameters without inducing its own requirements on me that would detract from my own ability to use the pistol as a tool in discontinuing a lethal threat against me or my loved ones: I require a reliable pistol that will allow me to carry it under a variety of conditions and employ it effectively without having to work around a number of "features" on the gun. The glock 19 is just that. It's reliable. It functions under adverse conditions. It is concealable, it's available widely, it requires no modification from stock besides sights. The glock does not require I adjust my grip or learn a special manual of arms to make it work. It's simple and boring, and reliable. The glock 19 is the honda accord of the gun world. If I gave someone a glock 19 or a modern accord back in 1940 they would have thought aliens had given them the perfect car/gun. The glock fits my requirements. The approval by many top shooting instructors is what I call confirmation/a clue.
jasonhgross
05-26-14, 11:20
Because I, like many, am not a Glock fan. What made me leave my beloved 1911s, was the M&P. Two, the "list" is what I/we want from a handgun that may, or may not exist. Wish list so to speak. If Glocks meet everything you'd want on your personal list if you were waving magic wands, drive on. The M&P as outlined above, essentially meets all on my persona wish list.
On the bold: I don't confuse needs with wants. I/we need, a reliable fire arms that goes bang when we need it to, ammo, and enough training with it to be competent with it.
This is my list of wants, vs needs. If I/we can get both, then win win.
So why are you not a glock fan? I'm not a "fan" either. They are just the best tool for the job given my criteria. I don't live m4 s either, they are just the optimal tool for that mission given the same or similar criteria.
So why are you not a glock fan? I'm not a "fan" either. They are just the best tool for the job given my criteria. I don't live m4 s either, they are just the optimal tool for that mission given the same or similar criteria.
Never liked the ergos of the Glock (though recent gens have improved) that crappy little trigger, or anything about them really. 'Till the M&P came along, I was 1911 kinda guy (hence the "1911-like" recs of my OP), and the M&P seems to be the first polymer wonder pistol that has converted many 1911 shooters away from that platform as no previous polymer double stack has.
Because a glock 19 fits all of my parameters without inducing its own requirements on me that would detract from my own ability to use the pistol as a tool in discontinuing a lethal threat against me or my loved ones: I require a reliable pistol that will allow me to carry it under a variety of conditions and employ it effectively without having to work around a number of "features" on the gun.
And this is where a thread starts to go down the rabbit hole over the Glock issue. A bunch of hand guns fit that description perfectly. There's nothing unique to the Glock that others can't match, or exceed. This is what starts to annoy people.
The glock 19 is just that. It's reliable. It functions under adverse conditions. It is concealable, it's available widely, it requires no modification from stock besides sights. The glock does not require I adjust my grip or learn a special manual of arms to make it work. It's simple and boring, and reliable.
Again, see above comments. I know plenty of people who have had up graded trigger work done on their Glocks and other mods. M&P, HK, Walther, etc, etc don't need any mods out of the box to function either.
The glock 19 is the honda accord of the gun world. If I gave someone a glock 19 or a modern accord back in 1940 they would have thought aliens had given them the perfect car/gun. The glock fits my requirements. The approval by many top shooting instructors is what I call confirmation/a clue.
And the Accord a perfectly good car, but there's other equally good cars, cars driven and owned by top driving instructors, and cars, some feel are superior to the Accord. If the 19 fits all needs, recs, and even fantasy wants you may have in handgun, drive on.
It does not for many, and Glock mythology tends to fall short here.
it requires no modification from stock besides sights.
A lot of people do modify their Glocks. LAV developed his own slide stop and mag release because he didn't like the stock ones or the oversized versions Glock offers. He developed his own Glock base plates because he felt the stock ones were inadequate. Ken Hackathorn runs an aftermarket trigger and the Vickers parts. K.D. as well as the Tigerswan guys run after market barrels for better accuracy. Then there's the Apex extractor that was developed the cure the BTf issue.
The approval by many top shooting instructors is what I call confirmation/a clue.
They run plenty of other guns as well. And last I heard K.D. was running a Sig P229. Some of them run Sigs, HKs, CZs,, 1911s. IIRC didn't Mike Pannone run XDs for awhile as well and like them?
I'll say again that I think everyone needs to find his or her own way. Whatever works for you, simply does. But Glock, like every other pistol, has it's own set of detriments as well as benefits and just because SME X likes it or dislikes it doesn't mean everyone should play follow the leader with them. Their set of parameters and my set of parameters may or may not be the same. And quite simply I or whomever may or may not agree with them. I understand and respect their experience, but that doesn't mean they're always right for everyone.
If the Glock is a Honda Accord, it's an Accord with a 2x4 for a seat
jasonhgross
05-26-14, 19:33
Never liked the ergos of the Glock (though recent gens have improved) that crappy little trigger, or anything about them really. 'Till the M&P came along, I was 1911 kinda guy (hence the "1911-like" recs of my OP), and the M&P seems to be the first polymer wonder pistol that has converted many 1911 shooters away from that platform as no previous polymer double stack has.
No offense Will, no it it sounds as if you just don't like the glock because you decided you don't like it. No worries, that's why they make so many different types.
One of my instructors said this about if a pistol should feel "natural" in the hand: "There is nothing natural about a small explosion with flame going off in your hands two feet in front of your face. A pistol feeling natural is inconsequential to making it run properly as long as the other factors (mentiond above) are met."
jasonhgross
05-26-14, 19:40
A lot of people do modify their Glocks. LAV developed his own slide stop and mag release because he didn't like the stock ones or the oversized versions Glock offers. He developed his own Glock base plates because he felt the stock ones were inadequate. Ken Hackathorn runs an aftermarket trigger and the Vickers parts. K.D. as well as the Tigerswan guys run after market barrels for better accuracy. Then there's the Apex extractor that was developed the cure the BTf issue.
They run plenty of other guns as well. And last I heard K.D. was running a Sig P229. Some of them run Sigs, HKs, CZs,, 1911s. IIRC didn't Mike Pannone run XDs for awhile as well and like them?
I'll say again that I think everyone needs to find his or her own way. Whatever works for you, simply does. But Glock, like every other pistol, has it's own set of detriments as well as benefits and just because SME X likes it or dislikes it doesn't mean everyone should play follow the leader with them. Their set of parameters and my set of parameters may or may not be the same. And quite simply I or whomever may or may not agree with them. I understand and respect their experience, but that doesn't mean they're always right for everyone.
So what are your parameters?
Btw the last pistol class I had with Mr. Vickers (advanced Pistol) he never said modifications were necessary, merely options. Also, he ran a stock barrel. Doing his walk back I was able to hit a torso metal target at over 100 yards, shooting over the road at US Training Center using stock glock trigger, stock barrel, heinie sights, and cheap practice ammo. Using this same pistol I was high shooter two years after that in an Insights Training Center Intensive Handgun Skills Class. I guess you could say stock works fine for me. But as you said, your parameters may be different.
No offense Will, no it it sounds as if you just don't like the glock because you decided you don't like it. No worries, that's why they make so many different types.
One of my instructors said this about if a pistol should feel "natural" in the hand: "There is nothing natural about a small explosion with flame going off in your hands two feet in front of your face. A pistol feeling natural is inconsequential to making it run properly as long as the other factors (mentiond above) are met."
I'm not a fan of the Glock for the reasons I told you I was not, and they are valid reasons.
Hk P30L in 9mm. The trigger's like a wet diaper but it bangs every single time. It's more accurate than me and with Dougs slide work and some stippling on the grip, it drives perfectly and is much faster than I can steer it.
http://ateiguns.com/gallery-category/heckler-koch/
The main thing I have against a striker fired gun is how much of the slide is behind the ejection port.
To get the striker and spring in there requires a lot of slide to keep it in and it's in the worst possible place for concealment. Pokes out really far, and the thick frame, square slide and thick trigger guard makes it feel like I'm trying to carry a football IWB.
A hammer fired pistol is usually a lot more tidy in the external dimensions and I can carry thin and heavy better thick and light, but thin and light is also an option.
The main thing I have against a striker fired gun is how much of the slide is behind the ejection port.
To get the striker and spring in there requires a lot of slide to keep it in and it's in the worst possible place for concealment. Pokes out really far, and the thick frame, square slide and thick trigger guard makes it feel like I'm trying to carry a football IWB.
A hammer fired pistol is usually a lot more tidy in the external dimensions and I can carry thin and heavy better thick and light, but thin and light is also an option.
It barely pokes out beyond the grip itself. Certainly less than a beaver tail.
Complaining about a square slide is silly. Would you like them to make it even wider to give you "round" aesthetics?
Glock is thinner than every hammer fired double stack 9mm I know of, except for the BHP without grips.
The main thing I have against a striker fired gun is how much of the slide is behind the ejection port.
To get the striker and spring in there requires a lot of slide to keep it in and it's in the worst possible place for concealment. Pokes out really far, and the thick frame, square slide and thick trigger guard makes it feel like I'm trying to carry a football IWB.
A hammer fired pistol is usually a lot more tidy in the external dimensions and I can carry thin and heavy better thick and light, but thin and light is also an option.
You're comments confuse me and or are unrelated to to striker vs hammer, such as the width and thicker trigger guards? What am I missing? That all seems more like a double stack vs single stack issue no? I can't see how anyone would have issues concealing an of the modern striker fired guns from SW, Glock, Walther, etc. That's more in your head than reality.
My ideal SD handgun:
Single action with well placed thumb safety and FP block.
Glock 19 sized.
Aluminum or poly frame.
Striker or hammer, don't care.
Low bore axis, a feature I like, some don't but I do.
I like 9mm but other calibers should be available.
The SIG 226 SAO looks interesting if not a little large. I have a Colt .38 Super Auto that I like a lot, it's heavy but slender.
No offense Will, no it it sounds as if you just don't like the glock because you decided you don't like it. No worries, that's why they make so many different types.
One of my instructors said this about if a pistol should feel "natural" in the hand: "There is nothing natural about a small explosion with flame going off in your hands two feet in front of your face. A pistol feeling natural is inconsequential to making it run properly as long as the other factors (mentiond above) are met."
This is true but the natural ergonomics of unnaturally shooting a pistol eventually come into play. I gave myself a massive case of tendinitis shooting 80k+ rounds in a year with a G17. The grip angle, beavertail area of the gun and the size of the grip punished my hands. Switching to the CZ pattern of pistols allowed my tendinitis to heal and my continued use of a pistol. Don't get me wrong, I love my Glocks and highly recommend them to anyone looking for a reliable, functional pistol but there ARE downsides and the spirit of this thread is that there is no one size fits all or perfect set of criteria that we can academically lay out.
It barely pokes out beyond the grip itself. Certainly less than a beaver tail.
Complaining about a square slide is silly. Would you like them to make it even wider to give you "round" aesthetics?
Glock is thinner than every hammer fired double stack 9mm I know of, except for the BHP without grips.
I guess you've never actually held anything but a plastic single stak.
I guess you've never actually held anything but a plastic single stak.
Samuse,
I think you need to clarify your original statement. I have no clue what you're talking about either. Hammer fired or striker fired the guns still have a firing pin or striker in essentially the same location...
I don't have a Glock to take pictures, but the back end of a Glock, M&P, Hi Point, etc, slide extends much further back than a hammer fired gun because the whole striker and spring has to be in there.
It causes the gun to print a lot on me, I'm fairly small. Plastic guns also have wide trigger guards, and thicker slides. Double stack steel or aluminum guns all have thinner trigger guards.
It like saying a Glock 26 is the same size as a J-frame. While somewhat true on the outside profile, most of a J-frame is half the thickness of a Glock, while the entire Glock is the same thickness.
I don't have a Glock to take pictures, but the back end of a Glock, M&P, Hi Point, etc, slide extends much further back than a hammer fired gun because the whole striker and spring has to be in there.
It causes the gun to print a lot on me, I'm fairly small. Plastic guns also have wide trigger guards, and thicker slides. Double stack steel or aluminum guns all have thinner trigger guards.
It like saying a Glock 26 is the same size as a J-frame. While somewhat true on the outside profile, most of a J-frame is half the thickness of a Glock, while the entire Glock is the same thickness.
I understand your Glock versus J frame analogy and it holds true. However, im still struggling to grasp what you're saying about a hammer fired gun versus a striker fired gun. Im really not seeing the comparison between the two tail ends of action types. If you were to measure from the point where your hand sits on the grip tang to the rearmost point of the firearm, ie the backplate or the back of the slide of a 1911, the distances are going to be VERY similar and largely immaterial in my mind.
Granted, YOU know what works for you with your body type so I cant really discount YOUR experiences.
brickboy240
05-27-14, 11:53
I think I am just sticking to my 3rd gen Glock 19.
Tired of searching around because everything else has had some sort of issue but Glock issues seem to be easiest to iron out.
The G19 does what I want...I'll spend all the money I was going to spend on another pistol on ammo and training...thank you.
-brickboy240
MountainRaven
05-27-14, 20:01
The more research I do on it, the closer the BHP appears to be to my 'ideal' pistol.
My list wouldn't be that different from Will's (the OP) except hammer versus striker and frame material are immaterial to me while the availability of 'happy sticks' (20+ round capacity magazines) is important to me (because Montana - because cars, ersatz 'PDW'... and it annoys the grabbers).
I think I am just sticking to my 3rd gen Glock 19.
Tired of searching around because everything else has had some sort of issue but Glock issues seem to be easiest to iron out.
The G19 does what I want...I'll spend all the money I was going to spend on another pistol on ammo and training...thank you.
-brickboy240
I feel the same as you.. I actually just bought a second in FDE and it's an absolute champ so far.
A sig p226 in 10mm.
Or... the Vltor Bren Ten if it ever comes out.
I have a g20... it's just "ok".
teutonicpolymer
06-20-14, 16:30
And this is where a thread starts to go down the rabbit hole over the Glock issue. A bunch of hand guns fit that description perfectly. There's nothing unique to the Glock that others can't match, or exceed. This is what starts to annoy people.
Again, see above comments. I know plenty of people who have had up graded trigger work done on their Glocks and other mods. M&P, HK, Walther, etc, etc don't need any mods out of the box to function either.
And the Accord a perfectly good car, but there's other equally good cars, cars driven and owned by top driving instructors, and cars, some feel are superior to the Accord. If the 19 fits all needs, recs, and even fantasy wants you may have in handgun, drive on.
It does not for many, and Glock mythology tends to fall short here.
The G19 does a lot of things that other pistols do but I do not know of many that do it with the size factor of the G19. The closest I know of is the BHP but it is still bigger and not the best comparison since it is single action hammer fired. Take the PPQ for example- it is pretty big compared to the G19 except in overall length and it does essentially the same thing, that is fire 9mm in a ~4" barrel with a 15+1 capacity.
The more research I do on it, the closer the BHP appears to be to my 'ideal' pistol.
My list wouldn't be that different from Will's (the OP) except hammer versus striker and frame material are immaterial to me while the availability of 'happy sticks' (20+ round capacity magazines) is important to me (because Montana - because cars, ersatz 'PDW'... and it annoys the grabbers).
I am also a BHP fan but I would really like to see it get updated (like the mag safety dropped from the factory for example).
A sig p226 in 10mm.
Or... the Vltor Bren Ten if it ever comes out.
I have a g20... it's just "ok".
I am looking forward to the Fortis as well but I love the G20 and I think it is way better than just ok. In my opinion it is a great all around package, sort of like a scaled up G19.
Mr. brink,
Now that the new H&K VP9 has been out for
A few months now have you had the opportunity
To handle/fire it ? Im curious to see if it meets
Any of your needs and with a street price under
$700 it seems like a very good deal imo ...btw
My daily carry is a H&K USP 45 cocked and locked
Cervantes
$700!? Try $549
http://shop.georgiagunstore.com/index.php?crn=2235&rn=49668&action=show_detail
Mr. brink,
Now that the new H&K VP9 has been out for
A few months now have you had the opportunity
To handle/fire it ?
I have not. Being in the People's Republic of MA, we tend to see various guns (if they are "MA approved") later than most, but I was told it will be here in the near future.
Im curious to see if it meets
Any of your needs and with a street price under
$700 it seems like a very good deal imo ...btw
My daily carry is a H&K USP 45 cocked and locked
Cervantes
Having no experience with it, but being an HK product, and hearing it has good ergos, decent trigger, double stack, and striker fired, it would hard to go wrong. But for that $$$, I'll bet an M&P with all the Apex after market offerings, would be the equal or better and still be less $$$. That's strictly hypothesis on my part having no experience with the VP9.
Note also, I'm not an early adopter and don't generally buy the first gen of anything, happy to let others be the beta testers that expose any issues. Some need to have latest greatest. I'll take vetted and known any day.
These 3 are optimal or near optimal for me:
Browning Hi-Power MkIII 9mm with night sights, C&S trigger job, Garthwaite trigger, and extended thumb safety
Dan Wesson Valor .45 1911
CZ 75 B 9mm Military
Glocks are OK and I take them with me often. But they don't offer the best shooting experience; they're just good grab'n'go, rugged, spartan guns.
$700!? Try $549
http://shop.georgiagunstore.com/index.php?crn=2235&rn=49668&action=show_detail
Thanks for the link btw I was going off what I heard
Back before the vp9 was released ...at the time of the
Post I had not checked the street price on it as im not
In the market to buy and if I was id buy a p30 before the
Vp...
I'd say a P30 light LEM with a shorter reset.
I'd say a P30 light LEM with a shorter reset.
Thats exactly what I want in 40 cal please
mass-diver
10-05-14, 09:46
Will,
Pre-ban mags aren't a factor for you? I like the M&P platform, but I carry a G19 because of pre-ban mags. Carrying a full size, double stack 9mm (where one of the often stated advantages of the caliber/platform is high capacity) with 10 round, crippled mags doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Will,
Pre-ban mags aren't a factor for you? I like the M&P platform, but I carry a G19 because of pre-ban mags. Carrying a full size, double stack 9mm (where one of the often stated advantages of the caliber/platform is high capacity) with 10 round, crippled mags doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
It's a theoretical discussion of course....
Gen4 G17
- cut down to take G19 mags (ccw)
- 10/8 rear, heine front with tritium
- textured, finger grooves removed, light frame reprofiling
- vickers mag catched reversed for trigger finger activation
- Gen3 G17 trigger bar, - connector
For me this is the best balance for a well-shooting pistol and conceal-ability. For pure shoot-ability, I wouldn't chop to G19 grip length.
The G19 does a lot of things that other pistols do but I do not know of many that do it with the size factor of the G19. The closest I know of is the BHP but it is still bigger and not the best comparison since it is single action hammer fired. Take the PPQ for example- it is pretty big compared to the G19 except in overall length and it does essentially the same thing, that is fire 9mm in a ~4" barrel with a 15+1 capacity.
.
There's a g19 vs. PPQ thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?127780-PPQ-or-Glock-19-gen-4
Size wise, if that 15+ 1 is the sweet spot for you, great. But, there's smaller (with lower rnd count) and larger, with higher rnd count. Unless 15+1 is the magic number for some, then I don't see it. It's an apples to oranges thing. Personally, for a tad more space taken up, I'd take various 17+1 choices including the G17 if I were a Glock guy.
teutonicpolymer
10-06-14, 11:16
There's a g19 vs. PPQ thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?127780-PPQ-or-Glock-19-gen-4
Size wise, if that 15+ 1 is the sweet spot for you, great. But, there's smaller (with lower rnd count) and larger, with higher rnd count. Unless 15+1 is the magic number for some, then I don't see it. It's an apples to oranges thing. Personally, for a tad more space taken up, I'd take various 17+1 choices including the G17 if I were a Glock guy.
For me it represents the highest capacity for the size factor and it so happens that the G19 size is the smallest I can get a full grip on.
This one.....It just happens to have started life out as a G19.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff295/Texaspoff/G19G42_zps93a8900f.jpg
I prefer shorter barrels so the 19 fits. The G19's grip is a tad short for me, so I extended and reduced it it for a perfect fit. The trigger and fire controls are stock and stay that way on my defensive weapons. The barrel is a fitted KKM which gives much better accuracy than the standard barrel. Yes the Glock barrel is fine, but I prefer the added accuracy of fitted barrels. The simplicity of the glock as a whole, easy of use, maintenance, etc. There are several excellent choices out there, and if I wasn't able to have my glocks the way they are, then I would probably be carrying something else.
TXPO
For me it represents the highest capacity for the size factor and it so happens that the G19 size is the smallest I can get a full grip on.
And there you have it: an excellent reason the G19/Glock a solid choice for you, not a reason Glock a superior choice compared to other choices per se.
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