railscales

[Rockhopper]

http://www.getrailscales.com/default.asp

looks like a cool idea. I wonder how well the micarta will hold up to the heat?

[GH41]

You got my attention but the site is a little limp! GH

[K1tt3n5]

I would order some if I could figure out how.

[zombiescometh]

release date is june 11th

[Shiz]

Hey, I like those!

[Dist. Expert 26]

If they turn out to be a quality product I'll definitely be getting some. I like the look and how skinny they are.

[E_Johnson]

What material are these made out of? I'm assuming some sort of polymer but it's hard to tell given the one close-up photo on the website. Looks cool though.

[Slippers]

Hopefully they aren't too expensive. I actually had a machinest buddy design and price out G10/FR4/Garolite panels, and by the time we purchased the keymod nuts, screws, material, and then factored in machine time, they were running $11 a pop for something very similar. Factor in all the other back-end stuff to bring it to market and they were simply too expensive to be worthwhile.


What material are these made out of? I'm assuming some sort of polymer but it's hard to tell given the one close-up photo on the website. Looks cool though.

On the KeyMod facebook they state the panels are made out of G10.

[SilverBullet432]

Seems legit.

[Slippers]

$69 for a set of 3. Ouch. http://www.getrailscales.com/RailScales-s/1817.htm

[Obscenejesster]

$69 for a set of 3. Ouch. http://www.getrailscales.com/RailScales-s/1817.htm

Is that some kind of a joke?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Slippers]

Well, like I said on the previous page, I priced out something similar through a machinist buddy, and it's simply expensive to make G10 panels. Part of the problem is that you have to start with thicker sheets of material because there have to be recoil lugs on the backside, and then add in $2.00 per two keymod nuts plus a couple screws, machine time, and overhead, and it may not be worthwhile unless you sell them for quite a bit.

Compare that to molded panels like the NSRs or even really high quality panels like on the Centurion CMR which are $12 a set (but a few thousand $$ for the mold up front).

[SilverBullet432]

$69 for a set of 3. Ouch. http://www.getrailscales.com/RailScales-s/1817.htm

Yeaaa nevermind...

[Blak1508]

Yeah this ^. For example buying just the rail inserts for Geissele rails, same idea. It's the work involved but not necessarly material. I like the idea of these. I wonder how they would act in place if a VFG or handstop, maybe make a more aggressive set and it would be nice to act almost as a finger guide for correct grip if mounted in correct locations.

[F-Trooper05]

Right on par with the Tango Down VFG (the non QD version) which is just a piece of plastic. Not sure how this is that outrageous of a price.

[scooter22]

Price is a deal-breaker.

[zombiescometh]

Well, like I said on the previous page, I priced out something similar through a machinist buddy, and it's simply expensive to make G10 panels. Part of the problem is that you have to start with thicker sheets of material because there have to be recoil lugs on the backside, and then add in $2.00 per two keymod nuts plus a couple screws, machine time, and overhead, and it may not be worthwhile unless you sell them for quite a bit.

Compare that to molded panels like the NSRs or even really high quality panels like on the Centurion CMR which are $12 a set (but a few thousand $$ for the mold up front).

I understand all that but with just a quick search i can find a block of g10 1 1/8"x1.5"x6" for $33 and $5 for shipping. It seems pretty high to me. So hopefully this is just the start up cost while they figure the process out.

Considering for that price you can get 6 sets of Noveske polymer panels.

[Quiet Riot]

Has anybody seen the backside of these to confirm they have recoil lugs?

[GH41]

I have no problem with the price. The only problem I have is having to buy 3 of them. I'd like to try a 4" section on the bottom flat of a KMR in front of a KAC stop. Anyone want to split a pack?? GH

[Slippers]

I understand all that but with just a quick search i can find a block of g10 1 1/8"x1.5"x6" for $33 and $5 for shipping. It seems pretty high to me. So hopefully this is just the start up cost while they figure the process out.

Considering for that price you can get 6 sets of Noveske polymer panels.

I don't want to turn this into an economics discussion, but a block of G10 for $38 shipped further proves my point. There's far more to the process than you think. Also, the dimensions of that block would be terrible for making panels like the railscales because it would be very difficult to clamp that into a machine and end up with panels unless you waste a ton of material. Lets just say it was possible to cut up that block, without wasting any material. You'd be looking at $38 to cut 4 panels. From a business perspective, that's a terrible investment if you're only going to sell 3 for $70, because the cost is far more than just $38. You have to include the keymod nuts, the screws, the machine time and overhead, and paying someone to design it in solidworks and program the mill. Not to mention you need to own a $100,000 mill and all the associated tooling and maintenance costs.

Generally you sell a product for 4x the total manufacturing cost (not just cost of materials). This way you have room to sell at a dealer price, in addition to retail. Otherwise it's not worth it to go through all the trouble of R&D, production, and marketing.

The cheapest way to make G10 panels is to start with a big flat sheet that is just thick enough to account for the maximum thickness (recoil lugs on the back to screw height on the front). On McMaster you can get a sheet of machinable black Garolite(G10/FR4) that is 36" x 48" x 0.5" for $246.78. Next you have to account for the fact that you can't cut them exactly next to each other, there has to be a border. Going off the finished railscale size of 0.625" x 4", add 0.25" on each side and you end up with an unfinished size of 1.125" x 4.50". That means you can potentially cut 320 panels out of the full sheet. That's approximately $0.77 per panel in garolite. Then add two keymod nuts @ $0.95 each and two screws @ $0.15 each for a total per-panel materials cost of $3.12.

Now consider how they're actually milled. The panel has to be clamped down, and the mill has to come in and cut the backside of the panels first, leaving material behind that would be the recoil lugs. That means quite a bit of material is being removed. While cutting the back, the holes and slots for the keymod nuts and screws would also be cut.

Unfortunately you can't simply flip the panel over to cut the front side, because you have all the recoil lugs sticking out. So a custom jig would have to be made, with matching reverse lugs so the piece of garolite is properly supported when it's flipped over and clamped down. Then the front would be cut, and you'd have to figure out how to keep each panel from flying off and smashing against the inside of the mill as the tool cuts the last bit separating it from the large sheet. This probably means you need to run a screw through each mounting hole, which would be tedious and time consuming.

So after all that, let's double the materials cost and say that covers all the machine time, overhead, marketing costs, and other things associated with running the business. $6.24 per panel. So three panels costs $18.72. Now multiply by four to get the retail price: $74.88.

Now you know why railscales is charging $69 for a set of three.

:)

[Mr blasty]

The machining fixture for dpms's Bolt extractor machining process from castings is over $10k. The fixture for the cast carrier keys to be machined is even more. These just hold the part, nothing more. Machine tools are damned expensive and add a higher cost to the part. I fully understand the $70 cost.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

[scoutfsu99]

Great post Slippers.

[Obscenejesster]

I'm not doubting it's expensive to make these rail scales. What I'm doubting is the choice of material when other material options are available and make much more sense in terms of manufacturing cost.

I'm sure they will sell a few of them but many more people will purchase cheaper options made with polymers.

[zombiescometh]

I don't want to turn this into an economics discussion, but a block of G10 for $38 shipped further proves my point. There's far more to the process than you think. Also, the dimensions of that block would be terrible for making panels like the railscales because it would be very difficult to clamp that into a machine and end up with panels unless you waste a ton of material. Lets just say it was possible to cut up that block, without wasting any material. You'd be looking at $38 to cut 4 panels. From a business perspective, that's a terrible investment if you're only going to sell 3 for $70, because the cost is far more than just $38. You have to include the keymod nuts, the screws, the machine time and overhead, and paying someone to design it in solidworks and program the mill. Not to mention you need to own a $100,000 mill and all the associated tooling and maintenance costs.

Generally you sell a product for 4x the total manufacturing cost (not just cost of materials). This way you have room to sell at a dealer price, in addition to retail. Otherwise it's not worth it to go through all the trouble of R&D, production, and marketing.

The cheapest way to make G10 panels is to start with a big flat sheet that is just thick enough to account for the maximum thickness (recoil lugs on the back to screw height on the front). On McMaster you can get a sheet of machinable black Garolite(G10/FR4) that is 36" x 48" x 0.5" for $246.78. Next you have to account for the fact that you can't cut them exactly next to each other, there has to be a border. Going off the finished railscale size of 0.625" x 4", add 0.25" on each side and you end up with an unfinished size of 1.125" x 4.50". That means you can potentially cut 320 panels out of the full sheet. That's approximately $0.77 per panel in garolite. Then add two keymod nuts @ $0.95 each and two screws @ $0.15 each for a total per-panel materials cost of $3.12.

Now consider how they're actually milled. The panel has to be clamped down, and the mill has to come in and cut the backside of the panels first, leaving material behind that would be the recoil lugs. That means quite a bit of material is being removed. While cutting the back, the holes and slots for the keymod nuts and screws would also be cut.

Unfortunately you can't simply flip the panel over to cut the front side, because you have all the recoil lugs sticking out. So a custom jig would have to be made, with matching reverse lugs so the piece of garolite is properly supported when it's flipped over and clamped down. Then the front would be cut, and you'd have to figure out how to keep each panel from flying off and smashing against the inside of the mill as the tool cuts the last bit separating it from the large sheet. This probably means you need to run a screw through each mounting hole, which would be tedious and time consuming.

So after all that, let's double the materials cost and say that covers all the machine time, overhead, marketing costs, and other things associated with running the business. $6.24 per panel. So three panels costs $18.72. Now multiply by four to get the retail price: $74.88.

Now you know why railscales is charging $69 for a set of three.

:)

I never said that the block of g10 would be a good idea. I was just pointing out that you could get material for a decent price and that's without buying in bulk and not know what your doing. :)

And thanks for the insight I didnt think about all the movements of a sheet of g10.

I have a feeling at that price we will probably see people buying different materials and trying it out for themselves. Like what happened with stippling some people will pay the money for someone else to do it and others will go out and buy a wood burner or soldering iron and see what happens.

Or like you said people who are machinist's or have friends that are and will do something like it at cost for you or themselves.

[militarymoron]

price and material aside, i don't think i'd want anything that resembles finger grooves on my handguard. i definitely don't want them under my palm; and most finger grooves are never the right size for me.

[ScatmanCrothers]

price and material aside, i don't think i'd want anything that resembles finger grooves on my handguard. i definitely don't want them under my palm; and most finger grooves are never the right size for me.

Only way I could see this initial pattern being used by myself is one single panel on the right side of the handguard when looking down the barrel (or possibly on the bottom) for the ends of the fingers on my grip hand to pull rearward on. Even then it'd require that specific grip in the same place every time to use in that way which doesn't seem feasible.

But, 23 bucks for an individual panel if they were ever released that way isn't worth it to me so I probably won't be finding out.

[K1tt3n5]

Too rich for my blood. I would prefer something thinner and flat anyway.

[SteveL]

Looks like a neat idea, but no way could I justify the cost.

[Obscenejesster]

I would love if Centurion made the CMR panels for KeyMod.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[Slippers]

I would love if Centurion made the CMR panels for KeyMod.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Interestingly enough, I had a riser plate drawn up that would fit between the CMR panel and a keymod handguard which would give enough depth for the keymod nuts to work properly. It also had a recoil lug. Unfortunately it was very difficult to make because the edges were so thin (due to the CMR panels having a concave shape on the back). It also wouldn't really prevent the keymod nuts from rotating when you torque down on them to tighten the panels, which meant that the keymod slots on the handguard would eat the rotational force.

[Slimcakes]

price and material aside, i don't think i'd want anything that resembles finger grooves on my handguard. i definitely don't want them under my palm; and most finger grooves are never the right size for me.

Actually, they feel great on some B5 keymod handguards. I purchased two sets to mount on three handguards, and mount the scales at 10 and 2.

Certainly superior in grip and ergonomics to any VFG I've used and your fingers really 'lock' into them when gripped.

Considering what some people pay to have grips stippled, or what-have-you, I think the price is reasonable and I am VERY pleased with the product.

[zombiescometh]

Actually, they feel great on some B5 keymod handguards. I purchased two sets to mount on three handguards, and mount the scales at 10 and 2.

Certainly superior in grip and ergonomics to any VFG I've used and your fingers really 'lock' into them when gripped.

Considering what some people pay to have grips stippled, or what-have-you, I think the price is reasonable and I am VERY pleased with the product.

That's great that they work for you. I admit I was tempted to get some also till I looked up prices of other keymod items.

1 Rail Scales pack (3 pieces total) $69
6 Noveske Polymer Keymod packs different colors available (48 pieces total) $72
4 Midwest Industries Keymod panel kits different colors available (12 pieces total) $72
2 Noveske Polymer Keymod packs and BCM Keymod vertical short grip $64
1 Noveske Polymer Keymod pack, 1 Midwest Keymod panel kit, and BCM Keymod vertical short grip $70

[Slimcakes]

That's great that they work for you. I admit I was tempted to get some also till I looked up prices of other keymod items.

1 Rail Scales pack (3 pieces total) $69
6 Noveske Polymer Keymod packs different colors available (48 pieces total) $72


I've tried both the Noveske and KAC panels and they feel cheap (and slick-no grip) compared to the G10....the G10 panel has some good grip and the finger grooves on the panels strike the right balance of depth without being to abrasive.

Comparing polymer to G10 is apples to oranges...for instance...I wouldn't compare my stock polymer SIG grips to the aftermarket G10 grip panels I purchased from Hogue (not cheap either); the G10 is a stronger, durable, non-flexing machined product that will last the life of the pistol.

I'll admit, given that all my pistols are outfitted with G10 grips, it allowed me to justify the price point given the known qualities I would get from the product.

Looking at the MI panels...wo...girth...which begs the question...one purchases a svelte hand guard and then adds panels that take the OD to that of M4 HG's? Noveske, MI, other vendors are missing the mark with their panels, IMO. Hence why I paid the piper and got the correctly made product for a slender hand guard.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/100_0622_zps4a3b769c.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/100_0622_zps4a3b769c.jpg.html)

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/100_0621_zps6b5c94be.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/100_0621_zps6b5c94be.jpg.html)

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t121/Slimcakes/100_0620_zps5dad60b9.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/Slimcakes/media/100_0620_zps5dad60b9.jpg.html)