View Full Version : Forgot how much I hate my 642
HighDesert
05-24-14, 16:28
With summer here my 642 will be getting the nod a few times a month when the 19 or 26 won't cut it. As I can now find 38 in stores, decided to freshen up my shooting and took it to the range today.
Haven't carried it or shot it since last summer and damn, I forgot how much it kicks and how poor I am with it past 15 feet.
I consider myself a good shot and rather tolerant of harsh loads, but man. Woof.
I have a love hate relationship with this pistol like none other.
I can't believe it gets recommended for chicks or first time carriers.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/25/yzy6u7yv.jpg
I think the only reason so many recommend revolvers for the ladies is the ease in loading and unloading. It certainly isnt due to less recoil.
I got my wife a 4" model 15 for the house. The weight helps with the recoil. She just has trouble working the slides on any of my pistols.
The only pistol she can operate is Beretta. Tomcat with the tip up barrel.
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HighDesert
05-24-14, 17:29
I agree on the larger revolvers - my wife's gun (stolen from me) is a 686 plus 4" that is just like shooting a 22 with 38s and pull is like buttter
A revolver is a good recommendation for someone with little experience and little desire to train regularly, because of simplicity. A Model 642 would be a good recommendation for someone with more experience and who is willing to train regularly. If it is not a carry piece and used for home defense, in my opinion bigger is better. A K Frame or L Frame with 4"-6" barrel would be a better choice. I would never recommend a small revolver for concealed carry to a person who is small of stature without letting them shoot one of mine first.
My wife has 2 J Frames and she is very accurate with both revolvers. They do have a bit of recoil and some people don't tolerate it well. She can fire 100-150 rounds of standard velocity lead cartridges and a few defensive rounds during a range session without complaining. She only shoots 4 or 5 times a year though.
Rubber grips that cover the back strap make a noticeable difference on a J Frame. Anyone who shoots a J Frame regularly should try a set.
OP- What are your intentions for this thread, and how can we help you?
The J's are "always guns" for their portability, but aren't always a good fit for for shooter. Certain techniques and support gear are helpful. You might take a look at these threads for the experiences of other members running Js and see what might help you out as well.
S&W 442 or other J-frame as sole self-defense weapon
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?90033-S-amp-W-442-or-other-J-frame-as-sole-self-defense-weapon
Project: Break my J frame
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?113852-Project-Break-my-J-frame
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-24-14, 21:55
I shot mine quite a bit. It has been a long time since I have thought much about the recoil. I think it mainly comes from not gripping the gun correctly. Unfortunately, the correct grip seems to come more from practice more than any particular technique. Or I may just have killed off my nerves with my Scandium J-frame.
I got my wife a 4" model 15 for the house. The weight helps with the recoil. She just has trouble working the slides on any of my pistols.
Thank you for that. I feel like I've been enabling mine. I've tried, even tried to have her exercise, but she just can't consistently rack the slide of certain automatics.
Before anyone says practice, she can't drive well either, and she's been doing that for 20 years.
I've seen women slighter than my wife work a Sig 226 in .357sig without complaining. I'm convinced that it also takes a "can do" mindset to perform well at any task.
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The airweight J frame is a conundrum for me. They are seductively easy to carry. Sadly, I do not shoot them well either. This is coming from someone who won a national championship with a 4" S&W Model 19, so don't feel bad that they don't seem to be a good fit for you either. :(
Quick Draw
05-25-14, 08:58
My guess is that a 642 will likely be used within 15 feet in most defensive situations. More practice can help or you could sell it and commit to another platform. Just be sure to carry.
Mine gets carried a lot more in this hot humid weather here this time of year. When cooler weather comes I will be carrying one of my semi autos.
HighDesert
05-25-14, 09:09
The airweight J frame is a conundrum for me. They are seductively easy to carry. Sadly, I do not shoot them well either. This is coming from someone who won a national championship with a 4" S&W Model 19, so don't feel bad that they don't seem to be a good fit for you either. :(
Conundrum is the best way to describe it.
Had it for about 3 years and I cannot deny how awesome of a bug it is - it carries, draws and points so perfectly and is an absolutely perfect bug/get off me gun.
I just hate the pull and recoil w the loads I have confidence in.
I only carry it as a primary maybe 10 times a year so I'm not too worried as it isn't my main platform (Glock 26 or 19) and I would never sell it.
Might try an apex kit to at least fix up the pull - don't want to change out grips as they are perfect for ease of draw and pocket carry. All the others seem a bit too big or too sticky.
I think I just need to love it for what it is and it shoot more.
Apex kit worth it?
If anyone has any recs for grips that don't add bulk, please advise.
I just hate the pull and recoil w the loads I have confidence in.
Try the Hornady Critical Defense 110gr (standard pressure), the Gold Dot 125 (standard pressure), or a 148 wadcutter. They are not optimal choices, but decent alternatives when recoil is a concern.
Might try an apex kit to at least fix up the pull - don't want to change out grips as they are perfect for ease of draw and pocket carry. All the others seem a bit too big or too sticky.
I think I just need to love it for what it is and it shoot more.
Apex kit worth it?
If anyone has any recs for grips that don't add bulk, please advise.
If Michael de Bethencourt or Claude Werner are within reach, their snub specific training would be a big help to you in getting the most out of the gun.
I like the CT laser grips. There are several options in single and combined materials. Make sure they work with your speed loaders.
The Apex duty/carry J frame kits lighten and smooth out the trigger pull. I have them in a couple of guns. As with all such kits double check ignition reliability, particularly with Winchester and CCI primers.
Wreckingball911
05-25-14, 09:50
Off topic...what base plate is that on the g26? I'm running +2s but that looks nice
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My casual wear pocket gun is a S&W 640 and has been for something like 20 years. This is the standard weight J frame and I have no issues with it. The J-Frame's grip makes it easier to grab from a pocket holster and its profile makes it more snag free than some smaller automatics with sharp, angular slides.
I keep it loaded with Gold Dot 135 grain JHP +P. If I was running a lighter J frame I would run a standard velocity load, probably wadcutters. At this point I am not looking for expansion as much as something that will make a true .357 hole and be controllable. I consider the J-frame to be a 21 foot and in gun for upper body hits and 10 feet and in for head shots.
I shot an airweight .38 once, couldn't stand it, the cylinder release cut into my thumb. I like 44 Mag in a full size revolver though.
HighDesert
05-25-14, 20:53
Off topic...what base plate is that on the g26? I'm running +2s but that looks nice
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GAP industries floor plate - adds absolutely zero length, but aids significantly in the draw.
They should come standard on the baby Glocks.
Voodoo_Man
05-25-14, 21:37
The 642, is in my opinion, an out dated gun. Where others carry semiautos in larger caliber with more capacity, some stick to their revolvers. Shoot with what you are comfortable with, I guess.
I would like to point out that the application potential of a revolver in a cqb contact distance is greatly unappreciated.
I have been carrying a J Frame for over 25 years and have fired thousands of rounds through them. A full size high capacity pistol would be better to have in an armed engagement, but much less convenient to carry.
If you train with them regularly a J Frame is a viable concealed carry firearm.
HighDesert
05-25-14, 22:10
Try the Hornady Critical Defense 110gr (standard pressure), the Gold Dot 125 (standard pressure), or a 148 wadcutter. They are not optimal choices, but decent alternatives when recoil is a concern.
If Michael de Bethencourt or Claude Werner are within reach, their snub specific training would be a big help to you in getting the most out of the gun.
I like the CT laser grips. There are several options in single and combined materials. Make sure they work with your speed loaders.
The Apex duty/carry J frame kits lighten and smooth out the trigger pull. I have them in a couple of guns. As with all such kits double check ignition reliability, particularly with Winchester and CCI primers.
Thank you for this info - I will try to hunt down those ammo recs and give them a shot.
I had no idea how inexpensive the apex kits were - I will order.
On the CT grips - how do you find them for pocket carry? Do they add a considerable amount of bulk? Do they draw well?
HighDesert
05-25-14, 22:14
The 642, is in my opinion, an out dated gun. Where others carry semiautos in larger caliber with more capacity, some stick to their revolvers. Shoot with what you are comfortable with, I guess.
I would like to point out that the application potential of a revolver in a cqb contact distance is greatly unappreciated.
Agreed - I do not carry my 642 as a primary - it is a pure bug/get off me/bad breath/carry in coat pocket gun. That is why I am not considering selling and put up with the harsh recoil - under 15 feet I can shoot it fast and well enough. Past that it just falls apart.
Has anyone tried these grips?
http://ergogrips.net/delta-grip.html
I carry a 442-2 most of the time.
I can shoot it fairly well, just not for very long.
25-30 rounds in a range session and I'm done. Punishing little beast of a PITA.
At speed, out to 7 or 8 yards I can get accuracy and speed acceptably close to a 1911 in 45.
brushy bill
05-30-14, 18:55
I carry a 442-2 most of the time.
A perennial favorite because it is easy to always have it on you and not in the safe. Sure, it isn't a PPC revolver, but it isn't supposed to be.
Cap'n Crash
05-30-14, 21:06
OP, have you experimented much with grip changes? I shoot my 442 back to back with my M&P9 each range session. My grip technique is completely different from one to the other. Massad Ayoob has written a lot on revolver grip that has helped me.
OP, have you experimented much with grip changes? I shoot my 442 back to back with my M&P9 each range session. My grip technique is completely different from one to the other. Massad Ayoob has written a lot on revolver grip that has helped me.
I believe that how you grip a small wheel gun makes all the difference in the world. Your ability to shoot a lot of rounds without a great deal of discomfort and place them accurately on a target at 25 yards is enhanced with a good grip technique.
Not many grips are properly designed for the centennial and the proper hand high grip. The issues I have had mostly involved the upper corner of the frame bruising my thumb joint. I have only found a few grips that prevent that and the one pictured would definitely not work for me.
The Crimson trace laser grips work fairly well and the Speigle wood Centennial grips available from: www.lightningarms.com/spegel.htm work quite well but are pricey.
If extreme conceal-ability can be compromised a bit, these are the best Centennial grips I have found so far: http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_35_729_841&products_id=7868
They are actually designed for the Centennial and only extend about 1/4" below the frame. For most people they improve the trigger reach and they "pad" the backstrap to reduce felt recoil.
It's funny how back in the early eighties when I first started handgunning, I was usually the only guy on the line with an auto. Now I am the only guy on the line with a revolver. Like the old joke about Carnegie Hall, practice always helps the shooter transcend the more difficult to master revolver trigger.
I have the 442 and 640. In the 442 I use 38 +P, and in the 640, I use 357 magnum 125 grains.
It may not fit your hand properly. I had a hard time with grip and recoil on a Ruger LCR but this J frame is a vast improvement for recoil and handling. For me, it's a natural pointing gun from 3 yards to 10 yards. Doing the speed rock drill at 3-7 yards is no problem. My buddy and I were hitting 25 yard plates consistently, and I was able to stretch to 50 yards on a 12" steel plate - slow fire, of course.
The channel sights take some getting used to shooting, and you should also try seeing where it ends up on paper from a rest. At least that is what we do when we are trying different ammunition. I find 158 grains to be too low for me. I prefer 125 grain bullets for 357 and 38.
I prefer this gun around town, since my hands are always in my pocket ready to draw.
I bought my 442 used and the trigger when broken in is great. My friend put a Wilson combat trigger and spring in my 640 and it made a world of difference in trigger pull - 9 lbs.
The J frames aren't made for shooting pleasure at the range.
Doc Safari
06-23-14, 10:28
I love my 642. My girlfriend doesn't have the hand strength to shoot hers with Crimson Trace laser grips. She has no trouble with the S&W Bodyguard .38, though.
I've got a no-lock 642 that is my preferred concealed carry piece and I try to shoot 20 rounds once a week just because of that.
I also have a 342 AirLite scandium frame with titanium cylinder. I shot 20 rounds through it once and that was enough!
Best,
Mike
[QUOTE=CornCod;1937928]It's funny how back in the early eighties when I first started handgunning, I was usually the only guy on the line with an auto. Now I am the only guy on the line with a revolver./QUOTE]
Ain't that the truth!
Lots of young guys with plastics.
Let's take a look at the historical perspective of the "snub nose" for a moment. The Detective and Chief's Specials all derived from the desires of long-time gun toters to ease the burden for those not expected to engage in gunfights on a regular basis. Most of the original target audiences (detectives and admin/support types) usually maintained larger service weapons and/or access to long guns when trouble was anticipated. When trouble threatened or dark clouds gathered, the bigger/better came out of the closet. The snub was there for those times when threat assessments went awry.
When we discuss arms for those unlikely to train we come back to the revolver based on simplicity and portability. Simplicity is a valid concern. I submit portability really is not unless the END USER (not necessarily the purchaser!) intends to carry concealed. In many cases, the spouse/GF has minimal experience and interest in the arms under consideration. They are often humoring an enthusiast when they accompany them to the gun store. Hand them a big heavy gun, which a medium frame steel revolver IS, and you can see the wheels turning in the brain: you mean I'm going to have to WORK at this? The airweight comes out because the sales clerk sees a tremble and now the chore (going to the gun shop) seems less impactful. A hesitant smile or shrug is taken as the sign of a good fit and the purchase is made.
As an instructor, I deal with this all too often. One poor woman showed up for a Basic Pistol class with a one of those Rich Wyatt custom 637 Smiths. After her first full cylinder she was already developing a nasty bruise in the web of her hand. It would benefit all if more folks tried before they bought. Keep that in mind the next time someone shows an interest in your J-frame at the range.
frequent flyer
07-09-14, 08:03
Use standard pressure loads, not +P if you are recoil sensitive. 148 wadcutters will be very soft shooting and have worked for a lot of folks in self defense situations. There is better ammo available now days (Gold Dot), try and see what you are comfortable shooting.
The older model, smaller CT Lasergrips work well in a pocket.
My guess is that a 642 will likely be used within 15 feet in most defensive situations. More practice can help or you could sell it and commit to another platform. Just be sure to carry.
.
And that's why several ladies I know chose one. And they are adept with them in that role. They are not interested in shutting down an active shooter in a mall. Just peeling some cretin off of them. Depending on the mission; they may still be superb for any shooter.
If extreme conceal-ability can be compromised a bit, these are the best Centennial grips I have found so far: http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22_35_729_841&products_id=7868
They are actually designed for the Centennial and only extend about 1/4" below the frame. For most people they improve the trigger reach and they "pad" the backstrap to reduce felt recoil.
Those look interesting, I would like to see a side-by-side comparison with standard boot grips. I would ALSO like to see someone replicate the dimensions of the CT LG-405 (http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/type/lasergrips/01-1680) sans the laser itself. It seems you can get backstrap coverage but not a flush fit to the frame bottom several places (Hogue, Butler Creek, etc.) Grips that don't add to the length of the frame never seem to cover the backstrap. I want both. This would seem to be the best of both worlds, especially since many J's see mainly pocket duty.
I've found the Pachmayr Compac and the Hogue Monogrip feel the best and dampen recoil of hot loads the best in my 642, but they do compromise concealability somewhat.
My issue is not the exposed backstrap or dangling little finger - it's the exposed metal of the trigger guard hitting my middle finger knuckle. The included boot grip falls short on this, as does the otherwise better grip S&W includes with their all steel j-frames.
The Pachmayr Compac Professional is what I have found offers the best compromise in maintaining a low profile for concealment while offering more padding under the trigger guard.
I've never used a CT grip - the thought of paying almost as much for the grip as I did for the gun doesn't sit well with my wallet.
For reduced recoil and accurate quick fire rate, I prefer Corbon DPX 110 gr +P (Barnes copper bullet) over the Speer 135 +P Gold Dots. Both show good penetration as per link:
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/38spl_HorndayFTX_SpeerGDHP_CorbonDPX.htm
I'm using CT Laser grips ... easy to pocket carry for me.
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