View Full Version : Ap custom carbon handgaurds
Starting to look into these and can't find anything too negative about (that was my "why not just Google it instead of posting a new topic" disclaimer)
I'm currently have a DDm4 with the 12" V7. The current weight is 14 Oz. The carbon would cut this weight in half at about 8 Oz. That would be nice for huntin this fall.
I see they have the new Rhino model this year with the key mod. Has anyone seen these ones yet?
I don't think AP's weight includes the needed standard barrel nut. Why would you consider this rail over a 13" KMR that weighs less and is full key-mod? GH
Because the KMR is aluminum
midSCarolina
05-25-14, 14:49
I personally haven't gotten on the whole carbon fiber thing yet... I know that at mountain bike competitions the whole carbon fiber thing is big but you only see sponsored guys on the carbon fiber bikes because they are really expensive and they break. You will see one or more broken carbon fiber frames at every race. The weight savings is really nice but i would only use it on something that is going to be handled gently.
This is just my opinion based on other carbon fiber products since i know little about the product you specifically asked about.
I have installed a few of these rails so far. It is my opinion that the barrel nut is way heavy and there are better options out there. I will say that they are well made and look very durable. If they refined the barrel nut, they would be a force to be reckoned with.
Obscenejesster
05-25-14, 15:09
Look at the KMR. Its lighter than that Carbon Fiber Rail your looking at and arguably the best rail currently on the market.
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Obscenejesster
05-25-14, 15:09
Because the KMR is aluminum
And magnesium. ☺
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I personally haven't gotten on the whole carbon fiber thing yet... I know that at mountain bike competitions the whole carbon fiber thing is big but you only see sponsored guys on the carbon fiber bikes because they are really expensive and they break. You will see one or more broken carbon fiber frames at every race. The weight savings is really nice but i would only use it on something that is going to be handled gently.
This is just my opinion based on other carbon fiber products since i know little about the product you specifically asked about.
An AR handguard isn't a bicycle frame and isn't subjected to the same stresses. I've dealt with carbon fiber on aircraft and some of those parts take rough handling and extreme environmental changes very well. Carbon fiber isn't always about weight, it's also about thermodynamics. I've gone shooting with rifles equipped with carbon fiber, plastic and aluminum parts in hot and cold weather. The carbon fiber and plastic furniture are much more comfortable to handle. They don't suck the heat out of your skin when it's cold and they don't burn you with heat absorbed from the sun.
My experience with environmental conditions also led me to painting my ARs in shades of brown & tan
The weight savings is really nice but i would only use it on something that is going to be handled gently.
Then you would spend a whole lot of money on something and completely be missing out on one of it's best properties. The mountain bikes that you're seeing broken aren't being properly produced, or they're enduring stresses that would deform any normal aluminum frame bike beyond the point of usability... The whole point of CF is that WHEN PRODUCED PROPERLY, the stuff is very strong in the proper direction while offering low thermal expansion and high heat resistance.
midSCarolina
05-26-14, 08:41
Then you would spend a whole lot of money on something and completely be missing out on one of it's best properties. The mountain bikes that you're seeing broken aren't being properly produced, or they're enduring stresses that would deform any normal aluminum frame bike beyond the point of usability... The whole point of CF is that WHEN PRODUCED PROPERLY, the stuff is very strong in the proper direction while offering low thermal expansion and high heat resistance.
I understand they are two completely different things. I am probably too conservative in what i use... i just haven't personally seen all that much carbon fiber in the shooting world so i am probably overly skeptical.
I have been using a 15" standard (non-Rhino) for about a year now. It's been working just fine, no problems, although I haven't been bashing it into barricades or door jams, haven't babied it either. The HG does weigh about 6.5oz. without the standard barrel nut.
jerrysimons
05-26-14, 10:03
An AR handguard isn't a bicycle frame and isn't subjected to the same stresses. I've dealt with carbon fiber on aircraft and some of those parts take rough handling and extreme environmental changes very well. Carbon fiber isn't always about weight, it's also about thermodynamics. I've gone shooting with rifles equipped with carbon fiber, plastic and aluminum parts in hot and cold weather. The carbon fiber and plastic furniture are much more comfortable to handle. They don't suck the heat out of your skin when it's cold and they don't burn you with heat absorbed from the sun.
My experience with environmental conditions also led me to painting my ARs in shades of brown & tan
You ave a good point. Though, I will attest, as many others have reported, that the BCM KMR aluminum/magnesium alloy is more resistant to heat transfer than regular aluminum rails. It stays comfortable to hold bare longer.
Slow connection and impatience resulting in an Unintended Discharge.
I call an alibi!
...the BCM KMR aluminum/magnesium alloy is more resistant to heat transfer than regular aluminum rails. It stays comfortable to hold bare longer.
I don't question that the KMR does a good job handling the heat from firing compared to other metal handguards. But leave that puppy in the sun and it will get hot. I don't just shoot from shady benches, I drag my rifles around outdoors in all types of weather. The metal parts, especially if black or green- parked, painted, anodized or blued- get hot from laying in the the sun. They suck the heat out of your skin when it's cold. Carbon fiber, plastics and wood are much friendlier to the shooter in environmental extremes. Even dating back to the earliest days of firearms development, forestocks were made of wood to protect the hands of the shooter from heat. Magpul knows the day of the aluminum handguard is long behind us- that's the real reason they developed the plastic friendly M-Lok, to eliminate the last barrier to synthetics kicking the aluminum handguard to the curb.
One reason carbon fiber mountain bike frames tend to be fragile is because they use carbon fiber to save weight, not to increase strength. As they are being used in competition, they pare the weight down to the point where the frame will be just durable enough to last one race, with a bit of a margin built in. If they built the frame to be the same weight as an aluminum frame, it would be much tougher- and thicker.
Aluminum was first used for rails because it was easy to machine, lighter with better heat conductor than steel, tougher than magnesium and easy to obtain. But metal has been and barring the development of some miracle alloy, has always been a poor choice to insulate the shooter from barrel heat. Rails ensured the popularity of the use of aluminum and institutional inertia and shooter conservatism ensures the continued use of a material long since made obsolete by technological advance.
If the market were to abandon aluminum as the material of choice for handguards, we'd see an explosion in the development of synthetic free float tubes. Cost & weight would come down and value & durability would go up. Mounting options would improve overnight. The technology is there, waiting for us. It just needs to be teased with the promise of the consumer's money
If you're into "metal" handguards, the KMR is very nice. Another alternative is the midwest industries SSK. It is a little heavier, but a bit less expensive if cost is an issue.
I've got the gen2 SS which is a little heavier than the SSK, but is quite nice too.
I also can vouch for the heat mitigation of the AP custom handguards. It's lightest of the bunch (including the weight of the milspec barrel nut), it is also quite inexpensive.
I found a great deal at cheaperthandirt.
The exterior diameter feels larger than the KMR, SSK, gen2 SS, but runs no chance of bumping a screw type gas block.
I had a bump issue when firing with one of my setups - only noticed it after a scratch appeared under the gas block and I was trying find why shots were so inconsistent at distance.
BufordTJustice
05-26-14, 13:58
I think it's also important to remember that the degree to which a handguard gets hot is also directly related to the rate at which it draws heat away from the chamber area of the barrel.
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Obscenejesster
05-26-14, 14:03
I don't question that the KMR does a good job handling the heat from firing compared to other metal handguards. But leave that puppy in the sun and it will get hot. I don't just shoot from shady benches, I drag my rifles around outdoors in all types of weather. The metal parts, especially if black or green- parked, painted, anodized or blued- get hot from laying in the the sun. They suck the heat out of your skin when it's cold. Carbon fiber, plastics and wood are much friendlier to the shooter in environmental extremes. Even dating back to the earliest days of firearms development, forestocks were made of wood to protect the hands of the shooter from heat. Magpul knows the day of the aluminum handguard is long behind us- that's the real reason they developed the plastic friendly M-Lok, to eliminate the last barrier to synthetics kicking the aluminum handguard to the curb.
One reason carbon fiber mountain bike frames tend to be fragile is because they use carbon fiber to save weight, not to increase strength. As they are being used in competition, they pare the weight down to the point where the frame will be just durable enough to last one race, with a bit of a margin built in. If they built the frame to be the same weight as an aluminum frame, it would be much tougher- and thicker.
Aluminum was first used for rails because it was easy to machine, lighter with better heat conductor than steel, tougher than magnesium and easy to obtain. But metal has been and barring the development of some miracle alloy, has always been a poor choice to insulate the shooter from barrel heat. Rails ensured the popularity of the use of aluminum and institutional inertia and shooter conservatism ensures the continued use of a material long since made obsolete by technological advance.
If the market were to abandon aluminum as the material of choice for handguards, we'd see an explosion in the development of synthetic free float tubes. Cost & weight would come down and value & durability would go up. Mounting options would improve overnight. The technology is there, waiting for us. It just needs to be teased with the promise of the consumer's money
If it's so cold out that you're worried about a hand guard sucking the warmth right out of your hand then why aren't you wearing gloves in the first place? If you leave you're rifle sitting in the sun a lot then why don't you paint it a lighter color like FDE? If you are running your rifle hard such as during a carbine class then you should also be wearing gloves.
In regards to Magpul replacing aluminum or alloy based hand guards with M-Lok polymer hand guards.......It will never happen. Polymer can't be free floated and that is important to a lot of people whether or not they benefit from it or not.
BufordTJustice
05-26-14, 14:12
If it's so cold out that you're worried about a hand guard sucking the warmth right out of your hand then why aren't you wearing gloves in the first place? If you leave you're rifle sitting in the sun a lot then why don't you paint it a lighter color like FDE? If you are running your rifle hard such as during a carbine class then you should also be wearing gloves.
In regards to Magpul replacing aluminum or alloy based hand guards with M-Lok polymer hand guards.......It will never happen. Polymer can't be free floated and that is important to a lot of people whether or not they benefit from it or not.
I'm going to predict now that magpul or another manufacturer will use some type of metal, embedded in a fiber reinforced polymer, to free float that way.
Only a matter of time.
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If it's so cold out that you're worried about a hand guard sucking the warmth right out of your hand then why aren't you wearing gloves in the first place?...If you are running your rifle hard such as during a carbine class then you should also be wearing gloves.
Just because you're wearing gloves, doesn't mean you want a metal handguard that requires the wearing of even thicker gloves- and why should I set up my rifle so I have to wear gloves? Why not take advantage of better materials?
If you leave you're rifle sitting in the sun a lot then why don't you paint it a lighter color like FDE?
...My experience with environmental conditions also led me to painting my ARs in shades of brown & tan
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/ARPile002_zpsfe1ba810.jpg
I've long since abandoned black ARs. But even when painted lighter colors, metal surfaces get hotter and suck the heat out of the skin faster than composites, plastics & wood
In regards to Magpul replacing aluminum or alloy based hand guards with M-Lok polymer hand guards.......It will never happen. Polymer can't be free floated and that is important to a lot of people whether or not they benefit from it or not.
...and if God had intended man to fly, He would have given us wings. Who says free float tubes can't be made out of polymer?
The aluminum handguard is dead- the only thing keeping its corpse propped up are the Old Grognards who won't let it go
batman4706
05-27-14, 08:36
I have an AP carbon on an 8 in 300 blk. The only problem I've had is with the add on rail sections. The little screws keep getting loose when using a bipod (with blue locktite) and it caused the carbon fiber to break out at one of the mounting locations.
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