View Full Version : IMI Razor match 77 grain 5.56mm
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05-27-14, 21:07
Supposedly this stuff is MK262 clone. Any experience with it accuracy-wise? Any chronograph data?
Just ordered 120 rounds of the 77gr to try out. Hoping to use it as a home defense round, but am looking for opinions on that subject. Also ordered some 193 to compare to the federal 193 I have.
I shot some and it as accurate as anything else I have shot (BH, MagTech). I will hopefully get some more samples. I don't have a chronograph so I can't help with that.
Just ordered 120 rounds of the 77gr to try out. Hoping to use it as a home defense round, but am looking for opinions on that subject. Also ordered some 193 to compare to the federal 193 I have.
Anytime you're slinging a 77 gr SMK or Custom Competition, you're sending a good defense bullet. That's what I run. They frag brutally and still give up to 15" of penetration.
I think MOLON found that the Nos CC 77 has a slightly thinner jacket and fragged even more dramatically. I seemed to see this too in my plain old water jug tests. But I still run the SMK with the cannalure for my house gun.
Anytime you're slinging a 77 gr SMK or Custom Competition, you're sending a good defense bullet. That's what I run. They frag brutally and still give up to 15" of penetration.
I think MOLON found that the Nos CC 77 has a slightly thinner jacket and fragged even more dramatically. I seemed to see this too in my plain old water jug tests. But I still run the SMK with the cannalure for my house gun.
Thank you! Are you running your hand loads for hd? Anyway you could share load data? I'm looking to start reloading and would much prefer to load some good stuff. I will use factory ammo for hd, but an almost identical hand load would be killed for practice and such.
My load for a Mk 262ish round is 23.4 gr of XBR. What I do is find a nice factory load that has a crimped primer case. Then I pull the FMJ and powder out (to use for practice ammo in reload brass), Then I'll put the XBR in, seat the bullet, and put a light crimp on the rounds.
That Load is OVER publish max and into the 5.56 pressure area. So use common sense when working up to it. You could probably use once fired brass for this load, but for HD, I go the extra mile and use a fresh case with a crimped primer.
Then I pull the FMJ and powder out (to use for practice ammo in reload brass), Then I'll put the XBR in, seat the bullet, and put a light crimp on the rounds.
Just curious, do you resize the neck before seating the bullet on this pulled brass? I've always thought about trying it without resizing since I put a light crimp, but I do it anyways for extra insurance. FWIW, I've only measure a .001 - .002 difference in sized and pulled necks.
Nope. Drop an SMK in there and crimp it. I think I did notice weaker neck tension on some oddball flavor of ammo. But LC or any of the majors work great.
Nope. Drop an SMK in there and crimp it. I think I did notice weaker neck tension on some oddball flavor of ammo. But LC or any of the majors work great.
So it's not primer specific? Just some XBR, 77's & whatever primers laying around & it's GTG? I've been thinking of playing with this load this coming fall when I've got more time to dedicate to it.
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It works very well for me on hogs out to at least 175 yards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpH6W8RjyYo
Works so we'll, I picked up 2K rounds for hog hunting in addition to my reloads....[emoji3]
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So it's not primer specific? Just some XBR, 77's & whatever primers laying around & it's GTG? I've been thinking of playing with this load this coming fall when I've got more time to dedicate to it.
You'll not get the accuracy you do with Russian primers. But this is fighting ammo. A hotter, more unruly primer is a favorable characteristic. (not that the Russian primers have EVER failed me) I did test the load a little with American crimped and primed brass to make sure there were no pressure problems. It worked fine.
So it's not primer specific? Just some XBR, 77's & whatever primers
It needs to be some kind of 5.56 since the primers are crimped. 5.56 typically uses CCI 41's. Unless I'm out of the loop, I've never seen crimped primers on 223.
It needs to be some kind of 5.56 since the primers are crimped. 5.56 typically uses CCI 41's. Unless I'm out of the loop, I've never seen crimped primers on 223.
I was gonna just roll my own out of OFB so the primers won't be crimped. If the 41's work good, that'd be great because I have a shit ton of them getting dusty.
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It needs to be some kind of 5.56 since the primers are crimped. 5.56 typically uses CCI 41's. Unless I'm out of the loop, I've never seen crimped primers on 223.
Nah nah.... Crimps aren't needed. Don't get hung up on that. AE223 would work fine with the pseudo crimp. I just happened to have some 06 AE223 in the red box with LC brass. That's some of the hardest case head brass you can find. I have no idea what primer it is... maybe 41s.
The primer is irrelevant. ANY decent Small Rifle primer will light XBR without issue. The idea is to eliminate the very minute risk of case separation in the defensive ammo. It's a very unlikely possibility, but Murphy's Law and so forth.
The primer is irrelevant. ANY decent Small Rifle primer will light XBR without issue.
Thanks, that's what I was wondering. I've got a few pounds of XBR that I've been meaning to try. You know how my last fiasco turned out with H322 & CCI 41's. I don't want to repeat that mistake.
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You know how my last fiasco turned out with H322 & CCI 41's. I don't want to repeat that mistake.
This sounds interesting. What happened?
This sounds interesting. What happened?
Most of our conversation was via PM otherwise I'd link it here; we did speak about it briefly in Mark's Russian primer thread too...
Anyway, I was testing some 77SMK loads using H322 & CCI #41 primers in a 20" SS410 BCM barrel (rifle gas system) & roughly 95% wouldn't cycle. Major short stroking & they wouldn't lock the bolt back. The rifle has an A5 buffer system. I swapped buffers & still no joy. I couldn't get them to cycle in a 16" middy with an A5 either. It wasn't until I tried them in a 14.5" middy with a carbine buffer that they started to cycle. The velocity was good, accuracy was only ok & the SD's were higher than my age. I switched the load to different primers & all was well. Night & day difference. I learned the hard way that the 41's don't play well with H322. Unfortunately, I already had several hundred loaded so they all had to be pulled. Now I'm more particular with the selection of primers I use.
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Most of our conversation was via PM otherwise I'd link it here; we did speak about it briefly in Mark's Russian primer thread too...
Anyway, I was testing some 77SMK loads using H322 & CCI #41 primers in a 20" SS410 BCM barrel (rifle gas system) & roughly 95% wouldn't cycle. Major short stroking & they wouldn't lock the bolt back. The rifle has an A5 buffer system. I swapped buffers & still no joy. I couldn't get them to cycle in a 16" middy with an A5 either. It wasn't until I tried them in a 14.5" middy with a carbine buffer that they started to cycle. The velocity was good, accuracy was only ok & the SD's were higher than my age. I switched the load to different primers & all was well. Night & day difference. I learned the hard way that the 41's don't play well with H322. Unfortunately, I already had several hundred loaded so they all had to be pulled. Now I'm more particular with the selection of primers I use.
Ah, yes. I remember something about this from that thread. I've been running CCI 450's that seem to be working great so far. Everything I've read said they were very close to the same primer compound, if not the same, just a thicker cup. I wonder what's different about the 41's that caused this...?
Thanks, that's what I was wondering. I've got a few pounds of XBR that I've been meaning to try. You know how my last fiasco turned out with H322 & CCI 41's. I don't want to repeat that mistake.
XBR is slower. It works with any primer.
I wonder what's different about the 41's that caused this...?
The hot 41 primer was burning up the fast H322 too fast. Too early of a peak in pressure for a longer gas system. It was fascinating to see that the primer swap corrected the problem. I bet this wouldn't be an issue on a carbine gas system.
The hot 41 primer was burning up the fast H322 too fast. Too early of a peak in pressure for a longer gas system. It was fascinating to see that the primer swap corrected the problem. I bet this wouldn't be an issue on a carbine gas system.
Yeah, I understand why this was happening, but what's so different about the 41's and 450's? I always thought they were the same compound but a thicker cup. Maybe they are a little hotter than 450's...?
Yeah, I understand why this was happening, but what's so different about the 41's and 450's? I always thought they were the same compound but a thicker cup. Maybe they are a little hotter than 450's...?
I know the chemical composition of primers about as much as I know the thought process of my wife... so yeah, no clue.
I bet this wouldn't be an issue on a carbine gas system.
The only gun I didn't try that load in was my 6920. Now I kinda wish I would've just to see how they'd have worked.
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The only gun I didn't try that load in was my 6920. Now I kinda wish I would've just to see how they'd have worked.
Well you still have some assembled don't you? Shoot them in the 6920.
Well you still have some assembled don't you? Shoot them in the 6920.
No, I pulled them all. I do still have all the #41 primed brass yet. Sometime just for grins, I'll throw some together and try it. It would be interesting to find out for sure.
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I bet the farm the load runs in the Bean gas system. Now you have to do it.
I bet the farm the load runs in the Bean gas system. Now you have to do it.
I'm not much into farming other than all the extra acreage but it would be interesting to do a side by side by side comparison with a rifle, middy & carbine system and that particular load.
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Now you're going nuts like Pappabear and I.
It was also single digit temps here when I was doing this test. I was wanting to revisit this anyway in a little warmer weather to see if OA temps had any affect. Now that it's 70°F+ warmer than before, I should give I try.
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Yeah, I understand why this was happening, but what's so different about the 41's and 450's? I always thought they were the same compound but a thicker cup. Maybe they are a little hotter than 450's...?
The compound is the same. The cup is supposed to be slightly thicker along with the anvil being slightly different. To make them less sensitive to slam fires. This is what I have read, and like ryno12 I do not understand the differences in primer composition or the actions of my gf. I have always said "no wife happy life". Im sure ryno12's wife is a great women and I mean no disrespect. I just would rather castrate myself with a spoon rather than get married.
Im sure ryno12's wife is a great women and I mean no disrespect. I just would rather castrate myself with a spoon rather than get married.
:D (She's a good women but I do question her train of thought on occasion)
I've got some 450's also so maybe I'll compare those to the 41's right away. I'm just pretty busy with some projects right now & it'll be awhile yet before I get to it. Not to mention my backyard range is a construction zone currently.
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:D (She's a good women but I do question her train of thought on occasion)
I've got some 450's also so maybe I'll compare those to the 41's right away. I'm just pretty busy with some projects right now & it'll be awhile yet before I get to it. Not to mention my backyard range is a construction zone currently.
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Im sure all men do from time to time. All the women I have dealt with seam to lack common sense. My backyard range is going to undergo some changes this summer. Im hoping to extend it out to 500 yards, qnd hang some gongs at 7 or 800. Which would make the just over 1 moa targets. Only problem is shooting them in the summer. Its to hot and dry here.
Having a range in the backyard is great.
I'm just pretty busy with some projects right now & it'll be awhile yet before I get to it.
Industry standard is no more than 10 days turn around on research projects. Send me all your components and I'll run the numbers. :cool:
I have a bunch of 450's and 41's so I'll try to do a heads up test of the two this weekend. I'll post the velocity and accuracy results if I get out there.
I have some 450s too. Maybe I could whip something up as well.
Cool. If you can, try them both out in a rifle & carbine gas systems. I probably won't have a chance to do any decent testing for another month or so.
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where did you guys find this stuff in stock? what's a good price?
where did you guys find this stuff in stock? what's a good price?
Which "stuff"?
I bet the farm the load runs in the Bean gas system. Now you have to do it.
Not that you asked, but 450/H322 loads in 55, 69, and 77 grains worked well in my carbine gas system, though I'm guessing there's a decent amount more gas coming through the port of my M&P15 vs a Colt 6920. The 69 and 77 grain loads matched the 2014 Hodgdon manual for velocity, but the 55 grain loads are only going 3100FPS yet still running my carbine without issues.
Not that you asked, but 450/H322 loads in 55, 69, and 77 grains worked well in my carbine gas system
Pretty much anything should cycle in a carbine.
I have an intermediate gassed 18" barrel that runs the CCI 450/H322 loads very well. I don't know what it is about 41's that caused the short-stroking on Ryno's mid-length rifle, but I'm trying this combo out this weekend on my intermediate as well as my carbine.
For some reason, I think my intermediate will cycle all of it. I swear tinkerbell sneezed on it or something. This thing runs EVERYTHING.
Not that you asked, but 450/H322 loads in 55, 69, and 77 grains worked well in my carbine gas system
Makes sense. Good to know. It was too hot to go shooting here this weekend. I'm drinking beer and processing brass. :(
mattiep321
06-21-14, 20:41
Picked up some Benchmark so I'm hoping that will work well with the 77gr SMK's too...anyone tried these with benchmark?
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Picked up some Benchmark so I'm hoping that will work well with the 77gr SMK's too...anyone tried these with benchmark?
I haven't. It'll be interesting to see... it's a little fast, but H322 is even faster and it works wonderfully with 77s.
Makes sense. Good to know. It was too hot to go shooting here this weekend. I'm drinking beer and processing brass. :(
I could have gone out this weekend, but I think I drank too much beer last night...
I could have gone out this weekend, but I think I drank too much beer last night...
I KNOW I drank too much beer last night!
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I ended up going to the range this afternoon. Not a single malfunction from the intermediate gas and 41's/H322. I wasn't shooting very well, which I'm sure is due to last nights activities, but everything was still moa-ish.
I'm gonna try to get some velocity data in the next few weeks when I can make it out to a place that I can actually use a chrono.
A velocity comparison with WOLF and 450s or 41s as the only variable would be interesting.
I believe I averaged 2671 with the 41's & 21.6 of 322. When I bumped it up to 21.8, I actually lost about 30 FPS. This was out of my 20" BCM & it choked pretty much every time. I forget offhand what I was getting after I switched to the Tula's but it was in the same ballpark.
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