View Full Version : Can anyone play devils advocate for $15 minimum wage?
alvincullumyork
05-29-14, 22:03
Like the post says can anyone give a logical and reasoned argument for it. One of my friends had this to say, which at the surface makes sense.
"$15 may be a bit high but the minimum wage has to be at least what the current min wage was worth when it was implemented. In other words, actually being corrected for inflation. If people can actually make a living and pay the basics without having multiple jobs, they start buying more consumer goods and services they could not before and they have time to actually get more training to move up which they do not have when they are just trying to feed and clothe themselves."
I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.
I'm old enough to remember when minimum wage was $2 hr.. (and in reality that wasn't that long ago) When I started as a apprentice pipefitter, I was paid $5 hr, and this was in 1980. Handing someone a sack of shit out of a drive up window was never designed to be a career.. It was designed for high school kids for a first job, collage kids working thru the summer to help pay for collage, and for retirees as a part time job to pickup some extra bucks. As we all know, one generally gets better wages when he/she gets a better skillset. Those working in fast food,(or any other minimum wage job) demanding a $15 minimum wage need to get kicked to the curb. I'm sorry, but it's not my fault they made poor decisions in life and minimum wage jobs are the best they can do. So, OP no, I can't make a logical or reasoned argument for it.
Belmont31R
05-29-14, 22:49
Why does min wage have to be equal to what it was when it first started? That's assuming the wage was 'good' back then.
Funny that most people (leftists) who support raising the minimum wage also support mass immigration. Mass immigration by no skill low skill people has done more to harm wages of non educated people than a lack of higher minimum wage ever could. The best thing for people's wages on a macro level is fewer job competitors. If you're in that job segment you can easily find yourself competing against millions of newly legal residents.
Like the post says can anyone give a logical and reasoned argument for it. One of my friends had this to say, which at the surface makes sense.
The only argument that resonated even remotely with me was that in our current system employers wind up paying the remainder of that minimum wage salary in taxes that then go forth and cover the rest of that 'living wage' indirectly through welfare/TANF and other support programs, and that companies paying over minimum wage are being disproportionately harmed by helping pay for the economic welfare of employees of other firms making minimum wage.
The aggregate demand increase by increasing buying power of minimum wage earners is crap, the concept that the wage floor should be a wage worthy of building a career on is a political straw man, and the idea that the quality of labor received will improve is again not backed by real world data.
There is no logical reason for raising the minimum wage. As said above, minimum wage jobs were not meant to be a career. With any given skillset comes opportunity. With opportunity comes a higher salary. Handing a bag of "food" through a window is not a skill. It never will be.
When the minimum wage rises, so does inflation. There's no way around it. The only people getting a raise are the minimum wage folks. Everyone elses wage remains the same.
The theory that production will rise with higher pay is a pipe dream. Production = higher pay, not the other way around. Minimum wage will never be enough for these people. A couple years down the road, they will be begging for another increase.
It's about as bad as giving the same gov't guaranteed student loan to the engineering student and the basket weaving student...
There is no logical reason for raising the minimum wage. As said above, minimum wage jobs were not meant to be a career. With any given skillset comes opportunity. With opportunity comes a higher salary. Handing a bag of "food" through a window is not a skill. It never will be.
When the minimum wage rises, so does inflation. There's no way around it. When minimum wage goes up, everyone doesn't get a raise. Why should someone with no skillset get a raise?
Exactly. Either that employer that eats that cost(yeah right :-/ ) goes out of business or raises prices.
Ever order food at Sheetz? Touch screen menu.
The REAL discussion we should be having is WHY do we have inflation? Who causes it? Who benefits? Who suffers? How do we fix it?
Start here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0912986212?pc_redir=1401278617&robot_redir=1
The rest is just window dressing, or BULLSHIT. Straw man is another excellent term. This is ALL by design.
Well if you want massive inflation and the eventual government pricing fixes via industry takeover, there is that I suppose.
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If $15 is good enough, why not $30?? When does it stop?
Wage and or price controls = shortages. It has been tried many times under different guises but the result is always the same. Want a shortage of jobs? Then pass a law freezing the upper or lower limit to some arbitrary amount.
You end up with fewer jobs, price inflation for all goods, rinse and repeat.
black22rifle
05-30-14, 00:49
I don't understand how people working at mcdonalds are protesting for $15 an hour. The quality of food isnt even that good and if they were to get that amount prices would go up and quality of food most likely would not, not to mention to dollar menu being bombed from orbit.
Whiskey_Bravo
05-30-14, 01:00
Like others have said, minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, especially for a family. If you are making minimum wage it's because you are in a no skill, low risk , anybody can do it job and that's why you make what you do. Raising the minimum wage only raises the cost of the products or services said workers produce, which those that make minimum wage more than likely will be buying.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-30-14, 01:12
"$15 may be a bit high....
Interesting. Why too high? What makes you feel that way? If that isn't the right amount how about we ask people what they would work for?
Sounds like you're getting pretty close to a 'market' ;)
The minimum wage and income inequality really piss me off when they won't deal with the issue of importing a 3rd world country every generation. Absolutely make my head spin. Geez, why is there downward pressure on wages as the number of people competing for the jobs increases... the gap between the richa nd poor is growing-- for cripes sake, stop bringing in more poor people... is this really hard to understand?
These Progressives are like the Soviet leaders that came to America to visit in the 1950s and thought they were seeing faked cities and economic activity--- they really didn't think that a market could actually work. In reality, it is always working, we just try to screw with it, which is kind of like pulling the tail on a pit-bull- it's gonna turn around and bite you...
Like others have said, minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, especially for a family. If you are making minimum wage it's because you are in a no skill, low risk , anybody can do it job and that's why you make what you do. Raising the minimum wage only raises the cost of the products or services said workers produce, which those that make minimum wage more than likely will be buying.
Nonsense the people in government with absolutely no understanding of econ 101 say raising minimum wage has no demonstrable negative effect on pricing.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
05-30-14, 08:11
Nonsense the people in government with absolutely no understanding of econ 101 say raising minimum wage has no demonstrable negative effect on pricing.
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and John Kerry sees no downside to implementing the changes needed to fight climate change...
HackerF15E
05-30-14, 09:04
If people can actually make a living and pay the basics without having multiple jobs, they start buying more consumer goods and services they could not before and they have time to actually get more training to move up which they do not have when they are just trying to feed and clothe themselves.
Nice idea, except for the bigger picture concept that it is up to individuals to "make a living", NOT the employers.
Employers pay a wage, and workers exchange that wage for their labor of their own freewill. If they can't "make a living" and "pay the basics", then it is the workers' responsibility to do something else; get an additional job, or learn a skill/trade/education and move to a better paying job. America is the "land of opportunity", not the "land of achievement". It is simply not the government's business to ensure some ethereal "living wage".
"$15 may be a bit high but the minimum wage has to be at least what the current min wage was worth when it was implemented. In other words, actually being corrected for inflation. If people can actually make a living and pay the basics without having multiple jobs, they start buying more consumer goods and services they could not before and they have time to actually get more training to move up which they do not have when they are just trying to feed and clothe themselves."
How many on minimum wage have multiple jobs?
Long term minimum wage is almost always a result of years of poor choices, or you simply chose that job and are perfectly happy. Expecting those unhappy folks to somehow start making good choices because you pay them a little more is foolish. Almost every fast food joint around here has a "manager wanted" sign hanging in front of the store.
Price-fixing ALWAYS has consequences. Always.
Peg the price of corn? Fix the minimum cost of labor? That artificially and automatically creates economic losses somewhere else in the system.
How many on minimum wage have multiple jobs?
Long term minimum wage is almost always a result of years of poor choices, or you simply chose that job and are perfectly happy. Expecting those unhappy folks to somehow start making good choices because you pay them a little more is foolish. Almost every fast food joint around here has a "manager wanted" sign hanging in front of the store.
I had this guy that I offered an entry level job to... $12 an hour start and included 100% paid for education classes which also included WAGES WHILE IN CLASS. Had long-term career potential no matter where he went in the country or even going to my competitor.
He turned it down because Dollar General manager offered him a front-door key if he stayed there.
He is still getting paid a quarter more than minimum wage.
I wonder if he even realized the long-term consequences of his decision?
It was HIS CHOICE to do that. Fine. Now some politician wants society to reward him with a wage increase even though he clearly could have taken the initiative on his own?
We are lost as a society.
I had this guy that I offered an entry level job to... $12 an hour start and included 100% paid for education classes which also included WAGES WHILE IN CLASS. Had long-term career potential no matter where he went in the country or even going to my competitor.
He turned it down because Dollar General manager offered him a front-door key if he stayed there.
He is still getting paid a quarter more than minimum wage.
I wonder if he even realized the long-term consequences of his decision?
It was HIS CHOICE to do that. Fine. Now some politician wants society to reward him with a wage increase even though he clearly could have taken the initiative on his own?
We are lost as a society.My wife has a similar story about health insurance. While she was going to nursing school she worked at Chili's as a server. From day one she was offered insurance. And it was very very cheap. Cheap enough that the tiny hourly pay easily paid for it and then some. Result. Only a few people had insurance. Yet those who chose not to buy insurance were the people we supposedly had to help with Obamacare.
Eurodriver
05-30-14, 11:04
Guys, I don't understand what the big deal is.
Think about all of those people struggling. They pick up their feet every day, and it hurts. They need help. Raising the minimum wage is the only way to ensure they get the help they need because, for one reason or another, they can't do it on their own.
Without charging $20 for Big Macs, people will still continue to buy them. And all of those people will continue to suffer.
Raise minimum wage. Lower obesity.
lol.
I am shocked, but not surprised, by the number of people that think if the .gov raises the minimum wage the discussion just stops there.
I guess if you think .gov is always the answer, people "need" a higher minimum wage... what possible reason could there be to oppose $15 an hour?
Economic consequences can't possibly exist, let alone be understood.
If you don't support an increase in the minimum wage you simply must be a bad person. There is no other explanation.
It has absolutely *nothing* to do with education, intelligence, or anything. One of my best friends is a guy I've known for 20 years. He a dual major in Chemical Engineering and Biology (with the GPA to back it up) and he makes $9 an hour at a tutoring center. He just doesn't know what he wants to do, so he just lives at home with mom and plays video games while his girlfriend is an editor for a newspaper and funds his nights out. He did teach at a private high school for a year, but quit because he didn't want to wake up so early. I wish I was making this up.
This illustrates the problem very well - if others will take care of you (parents, girlfriend) why should you try to better yourself? Same goes for raising the minimum wage - you want more money? Try getting a better job!
Mauser KAR98K
05-30-14, 13:02
Why should there be a $15 minimum wage? Because the economy isn't recovering, (it just experienced a 1% contraction), we have a load of college graduates that can't find jobs, it will help them pay the loans without causing another bubble to burst, and it will get people off of welfare and others back into the labor market and back to paying the taxes that isn't being picked up middle class workers that are becoming non - existent.
We need to embrace the service industry that is now America. Because of taxation laws and cheaper foreign labor, it is the only way to make the American worker feel more valuable than some sweat shop worker in Hong Kong.
Devil, s advocate out.
Let's simplify this.
Let's just give every American 1 million dollars.
That's fair right?
Sure it is.
Except here's what will happen. Disciplined, intelligent, industrious people will be able to turn $1 million into many millions. Undisciplined, stupid, lazy people will waste their money and run out of it very soon. And then we'll be back to whining about all the unfairness.
There is a fundamental flaw in your question. There is no logical support for raising minimum wage or flat out even having it. It's purely an emotional ploy to make people feel better instead of actually BE better.
Raising minimum wage ( if you could get away with only raising min wage and not a whole slew of other wages) will impact the cost of all goods. There is no way in HELL Wallstreet will absorb the higher labor cost. They will pass that along to consumers in a number of ways. The most likely is higher prices. Also possible is layoffs and more "streamlined" operations. Or a combo of the 2. Assuming they go the cost route, the cost of goods across the country will go up. Not just the McDonalds burger and fries, but EVERYTHING that is touched by a minimum wage worker. With prices rising the purchasing power of the min wage worker will not increase, but may even diminish depending in how many middle men handled the item being sold. They will still be at the bottom of the totem pole. You may feel good for a short time spam, but you're still going to be an unskilled laborer whose prospects suck until you learn a skill.
The reality of the matter is that we can't just raise min wage. A whole slew of related wages will also need to be raised or emoyers will loose people. Think about this you work job x for 14/hr and you can swap that out for a higher paying job. How many would jump ship for an extra $1/hr. I know back when I was a contract employee people would hop accross the street for 0.25/hr. Now in order to retain that assistant manager or whatever, the employer will need to offer more incentive to stay. It's a chain reaction whose net result is not positive.
Want to help minimum wage employees: teach them useful skills. Bring back vocational schools. Not everyone is meant for college and an MBA. Bring back manufacturing or other blue collar jobs that people can make a living doing.
http://billmoyers.com/2014/03/07/all-of-the-arguments-against-raising-the-minimum-wage-have-fallen-apart/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/14/this-graph-is-the-best-argument-for-raising-the-minimum-wage/
There is a fundamental flaw in your question. There is no logical support for raising minimum wage or flat out even having it. It's purely an emotional ploy to make people feel better instead of actually BE better.
Raising minimum wage ( if you could get away with only raising min wage and not a whole slew of other wages) will impact the cost of all goods. There is no way in HELL Wallstreet will absorb the higher labor cost. They will pass that along to consumers in a number of ways. The most likely is higher prices. Also possible is layoffs and more "streamlined" operations. Or a combo of the 2. Assuming they go the cost route, the cost of goods across the country will go up. Not just the McDonalds burger and fries, but EVERYTHING that is touched by a minimum wage worker. With prices rising the purchasing power of the min wage worker will not increase, but may even diminish depending in how many middle men handled the item being sold. They will still be at the bottom of the totem pole. You may feel good for a short time spam, but you're still going to be an unskilled laborer whose prospects suck until you learn a skill.
The reality of the matter is that we can't just raise min wage. A whole slew of related wages will also need to be raised or emoyers will loose people. Think about this you work job x for 14/hr and you can swap that out for a higher paying job. How many would jump ship for an extra $1/hr. I know back when I was a contract employee people would hop accross the street for 0.25/hr. Now in order to retain that assistant manager or whatever, the employer will need to offer more incentive to stay. It's a chain reaction whose net result is not positive.
Want to help minimum wage employees: teach them useful skills. Bring back vocational schools. Not everyone is meant for college and an MBA. Bring back manufacturing or other blue collar jobs that people can make a living doing.
Amen.... this post flat out nailed it.
I too agree with TAZ.
Vocational schools do still exist.
My neighbor's son graduated high school. He confided he isn't college material.
So, he's going to trade school. It'll last two years. When he graduates he'll start off making about $40.00 an hour or more.
He's going to be a plumber.
Oh, he's paying his own way by working a minimum wage job...
I too agree with TAZ.
Vocational schools do still exist.
My neighbor's son graduated high school. He confided he isn't college material.
So, he's going to trade school. It'll last two years. When he graduates he'll start off making about $40.00 an hour or more.
He's going to be a plumber.
Oh, he's paying his own way by working a minimum wage job...
This kind of thing is what we need. People learning skills that are valued and can be used to make a living. Use the min wage POS job as a gateway drug to better employment.
brickboy240
05-30-14, 16:06
You all realize that less than 2% of the working population in America actually earns minimum wage....right?
Then how would raising that alone help the overall economy?
Did anyone else take Economics 101 in college? Did anyone else pass it?
LOL
-brickboy240
Let's simplify this.
Let's just give every American 1 million dollars.
That's fair right?
Sure it is.
Except here's what will happen. Disciplined, intelligent, industrious people will be able to turn $1 million into many millions. Undisciplined, stupid, lazy people will waste their money and run out of it very soon. And then we'll be back to whining about all the unfairness.
But, it won't be EVERY American that gets a million, only those that don't already have it. So those that earned their million now find it worthless as burgers, cigs and playboys will now cost $50K each. All it does is devalues the money that others earned and saved...
alvincullumyork
05-30-14, 19:22
Same conversation but it veered to wealth redistribution.
"I've always imagined progressive tax brackets similar to those of the 50s and 60s that effectively enforce an income cap as tax rates approach 90% of each dollar earned past a certain threshold. The money isn't taken from anyone, as net worth and overall wealth would remain untouched. People would just find it increasingly difficult to effectively cultivate greater and greater masses of wealth without paying most of it back to the government. The US was at it's strongest when the middle class was at its peak during those same years. Tax policy was an important part of that."
"Nothing stopping them, and that's not a problem as I see it. I don't buy into the Randian mentality that our wealthy overlords are the greatest among us and that we would fail without them. The are often the most parasitic, feeding off a system while offering very little in return (if we're talking about investment bankers and such, entrepreneurs are a different breed).
Interestingly to me, and somewhat related, the country with the highest rate of entrepreneurs per capita in the world is not the US, but Norway, also the country with some of the highest tax rates in the world."
It really took me by surprise that I actually knew people like this, even if not very well. It's depressing and a little frightening.
PA PATRIOT
05-31-14, 07:57
I hate to sound like a dick, but have you seen some of the protesters in the recent marches for a higher minimum wage? Just looking at the protesters appearance and listening to their speaking skills leads me to believe most have never completed high school, have zero life skills and only work because they are forced to do so when welfare or their parents either cut their benefits/free ride or knocked them off completely. Now I feel for the high school grad who needs that first job to gain work place experience or the collage student looking for spending cash during summer break but hell just looking at the rest of the protest crowds speaks volumes.
Why do they think that their lack of action, life choices or dedication to better their self's should be a rallying cry for higher pay?
If you reward ineptness then one only allows it to grow.
Quite a number of the "poor" have contempt for those of us who're willing to get an education and succeed.
In my family, I've heard such things as: I won't take shi* from any boss and so on.
So, ultimately these folks always have a low paying, low responsibility job, but complain they aren't making a good salary.
Every job comes with some sacrifice. Every job has downsides. If you adapt, you'll succeed.
If, however, you think your manhood is related to being quick to be offended by those in management positions and quit as soon as you find an excuse to quit, because "hey man, I won't take shi* from anyone" then so be it. You'll always have a poor paying job, because your short sighted unwillingness to sacrifice means you won't ultimately become the boss.
Yes, sometimes sacrifice comes in the form of having to tolerate a bad boss. Or crappy hours. Or, unpleasant work. Too bad, but eventually you'll succeed if you stick it out.
Many in my family aren't willing to stick it out in order to succeed. So too the many masses who seem to think a low standard of living is noble. They don't have to strive, but should be given...
They get what they deserve.
Poverty.
Dr. Walter Block, Economics professor at Loyola University New Orleans, talks about why he thinks the minimum wage should be eliminated all together. 7 minute video here. (http://www.wwltv.com/video?id=246265011&sec=780994)
Seattle went to $15: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/03/seattle-council-passes-15-minimum-wage/
Eurodriver
06-03-14, 10:14
Quite a number of the "poor" have contempt for those of us who're willing to get an education and succeed.
In my family, I've heard such things as: I won't take shi* from any boss and so on.
So, ultimately these folks always have a low paying, low responsibility job, but complain they aren't making a good salary.
Every job comes with some sacrifice. Every job has downsides. If you adapt, you'll succeed.
If, however, you think your manhood is related to being quick to be offended by those in management positions and quit as soon as you find an excuse to quit, because "hey man, I won't take shi* from anyone" then so be it. You'll always have a poor paying job, because your short sighted unwillingness to sacrifice means you won't ultimately become the boss.
Yes, sometimes sacrifice comes in the form of having to tolerate a bad boss. Or crappy hours. Or, unpleasant work. Too bad, but eventually you'll succeed if you stick it out.
Many in my family aren't willing to stick it out in order to succeed. So too the many masses who seem to think a low standard of living is noble. They don't have to strive, but should be given...
They get what they deserve.
Poverty.
This is very eloquent, and true.
Why should there be a $15 minimum wage? Because the economy isn't recovering, (it just experienced a 1% contraction)
What does this have to do with minimum wage discussion? Nothing, it is a red herring.
we have a load of college graduates that can't find jobs,
If your assertion is true...... raising the minimum wage DOES NOTHING. Doesn't matter what the job pays IF YOU CANT FIND IT. That ignores the obvious short and long-term effect of increasing labor cost decreasing the number of "jobs" the market will bear. If the .gov does price fixing you think McDonalds is going to expand employment? How about every other employer operating at that level of employees? They will do more with the same # of employees and probably DECREASE the # of employees.
it will help them pay the loans without causing another bubble to burst
As someone stated, this is 2% of the labor force and for any college graduate this SHOULD be a short-term problem. Screwing up labor markets for YEARS for some emotionally motivated short term gain on 2% of the work force..... is ass-backwards collectivist thinking.
, and it will get people off of welfare and others back into the labor market and back to paying the taxes that isn't being picked up middle class workers that are becoming non - existent.
Too much obfuscation here to bother with a breakdown. This reads like a collection of buzz words arranged to make it seem like there would be massive increased tax revenue and significant drops in welfare costs that pays for it all.... Not the case.
Devil, s advocate out.
I see no valid argument in your "Devil's Advocate" position.
Price fixing ALWAYS has consequences for the market. By the nature of price fixing you have economic losses.
I am a business owner with two employee's. Both currently make about 15$ an hour for skilled labor as a mechanic. Both went to technical school.
I change 75$ an hour labor.
If minimum wage was to be raised to 15$ an hour, I would have to raise my salary of my employee's, because obviously skilled labor is worth more than minimum wage. They currently make double minimum wage. Should their new hourly wage be 30$ an hour? Or even 22.50 which is their current amount over minimum wage?
If this happened I would have to raise my labor rate to match my new costs. It would now be a minimum of 125$ an hour if not as much as 150$ an hour. Basically I would expect all of the costs of my business to go up significantly as all my suppliers will have to raise my costs to cover their new costs of doing business.
Now I previously had very reasonable rates. These rates allowed good working people to be able to afford to keep their cars running to pick their kids up from school and get to work. Their cost to fix that vehicle probably just doubled. They sure better hope their salaries doubled too, or now they can't afford to keep their car running.
All this to make some semi functional retard more comfortable, idk maybe so they can buy the newest iPhone? I'm sorry but minimum wage should be able to give some one enough to eat enough to not starve and to put a shelter over their head to not succumb to the elements.
The only only people who will benefit from this is tax agencies. I know I get taxed on pay role, my employees get taxed on income. More money changing hands means more taxes.
But since everybody under the 100K a year mark will need significantly higher pay minimum wage is still going to have the same buying power at 15$ as it did at 7.25.
I find two kinds of people support a high minimum wage. Some one who is close to that line or has family that is, basically some one who stands to gain from it, or watch some one else. People who are afraid of needing they high minimum wage them selves. The second group are quite well off, the social progressive liberal. These people live in a fantasy land where they every one to be happy and cozy and the same. Basically they are guilty of their own comfort and there for want every one else to be the same, but for some one else to pay for it. The commonality of these two groups is the idiocy that allows them to think it will make a difference.
Screw these turds that want higher wages for medial jobs. If you want to make more money, earn it. If not, keep working the window.
There should be NO minimum wage at all.
First-rate explanation.
I find two kinds of people support a high minimum wage. Some one who is close to that line or has family that is, basically some one who stands to gain from it, or watch some one else. People who are afraid of needing they high minimum wage them selves. The second group are quite well off, the social progressive liberal. These people live in a fantasy land where they every one to be happy and cozy and the same. Basically they are guilty of their own comfort and there for want every one else to be the same, but for some one else to pay for it. The commonality of these two groups is the idiocy that allows them to think it will make a difference.
I would add two groups to this:
1. Those simply following union leadership blindly and/or pushing union doctrine without critical thinking about consequences. These are easily recognized by statements that reveal a belief system where unions are always awesome and can do no wrong.
2. Communists and other "a job is a constitutional right" proponents. It is their way to have a little bit of their ideology pushed NOW without having the country turn directly towards their economic system.
So hypothetical question:
If raising the minimum wage shows through facts to non-trivially improve the economy, does not cause job losses, and does not cause small businesses to close up shop, would you be for it at that point?
Crow Hunter
06-03-14, 11:54
So hypothetical question:
If raising the minimum wage shows through facts to non-trivially improve the economy, does not cause job losses, and does not cause small businesses to close up shop, would you be for it at that point?
Yes, I would be assuming no degredation of my personal buying power.
However, I don't believe that it can happen.
I honestly think that this is a last ditch effort by the government to stave off a deflationary event. No matter what they do, they can't seem to cause inflation. They are out of dry powder on the lowering interest rate front. All they can do to ramp up inflation is to try and cause an artificial inflationary event by putting more $ in people hands to chase the same number of goods.
The problem is that it will backfire and stimulate increased automation/productivity which actually concentrate the $ in fewer hands yet again. This time into the hands of those that develop and build automation.
I know if I were the owner of a McDonald's and they told me that I was going to have to take a cut in my profits to double my worker's pay I would gladly fork out a couple $100k to install self service stands and as much other automation as possible to avoid having to double my labor costs to pay for people who may or may not show up for work on any given day.
Personally, I would rather deal with a self service kiosk that trying to figure out what the heck some of these people who barely speak intelligible English are asking me and screwing up my order. I don't really want to see a surly "friendly face" mumbling "Wuju lik sum fries wi dat?" nearly incoherently while staring over my left shoulder at nothing.
brickboy240
06-03-14, 13:36
Besides the obvious reasons...raising the minimum wage is a liberal idea...which means it is wrought with unforeseen consequences.
That alone is reason NOT to do it.
Also...if less than 2% actually earns this...how would that alone have a positive impact on the overall job market?
-brickboy240
Besides the obvious reasons...raising the minimum wage is a liberal idea...which means it is wrought with unforeseen consequences.
That alone is reason NOT to do it.
I'm pretty sure that's what liberals say about conservative ideas.
This is why nothing gets done in Congress.
Once upon a time you could turn a wrench all day in Detroit for $50/hour with no education.
A worker's paradise.
How'd that work out?
Yes, I would be assuming no degredation of my personal buying power.
However, I don't believe that it can happen.
I honestly think that this is a last ditch effort by the government to stave off a deflationary event. No matter what they do, they can't seem to cause inflation. They are out of dry powder on the lowering interest rate front. All they can do to ramp up inflation is to try and cause an artificial inflationary event by putting more $ in people hands to chase the same number of goods.
The problem is that it will backfire and stimulate increased automation/productivity which actually concentrate the $ in fewer hands yet again. This time into the hands of those that develop and build automation.
I know if I were the owner of a McDonald's and they told me that I was going to have to take a cut in my profits to double my worker's pay I would gladly fork out a couple $100k to install self service stands and as much other automation as possible to avoid having to double my labor costs to pay for people who may or may not show up for work on any given day.
Personally, I would rather deal with a self service kiosk that trying to figure out what the heck some of these people who barely speak intelligible English are asking me and screwing up my order. I don't really want to see a surly "friendly face" mumbling "Wuju lik sum fries wi dat?" nearly incoherently while staring over my left shoulder at nothing.
Now that Seattle city council has passed a new law for a phased in $15/hr minimum wage we will have a real world lab experiment to watch. I suspect any collateral damage will be blamed on other factors. But I think we will see some definite symptoms from this law:
- More automation as you stated. there are only a few restaurants in which the servers are helpful and pleasant to deal with. Most I would gladly opt for a kiosk.
- Fewer minimum wage jobs. Companies will cut back or relocate those jobs.
- Small businesses folding. Big Labor and big business love laws such as minimum wage because it puts more pressure on small businesses. More activity will migrate to the fewer large corporations that can absorb the impact and spread it over a longer period and region.
- Obviously an increase in cost of most everything made or performed in Seattle. Which results in reduced business, and need for even fewer jobs.
Now that Seattle city council has passed a new law for a phased in $15/hr minimum wage we will have a real world lab experiment to watch. I suspect any collateral damage will be blamed on other factors. But I think we will see some definite symptoms from this law:
- More automation as you stated. there are only a few restaurants in which the servers are helpful and pleasant to deal with. Most I would gladly opt for a kiosk.
- Fewer minimum wage jobs. Companies will cut back or relocate those jobs.
- Small businesses folding. Big Labor and big business love laws such as minimum wage because it puts more pressure on small businesses. More activity will migrate to the fewer large corporations that can absorb the impact and spread it over a longer period and region.
- Obviously an increase in cost of most everything made or performed in Seattle. Which results in reduced business, and need for even fewer jobs.
Thing is, Washington already has a $9.32 minimum wage, and it's doing better than most other states. I don't know if it's doing better because of the higher minimum wage or if it's doing better despite a higher minimum wage.
"Meanwhile job growth [in Washington State] continued at an average 0.8 percent annual pace, 0.3 percentage point above the national rate. Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years."
"SeaTac, Washington, a Seattle suburb where the major employer is the region’s international airport, voted in November to raise the hourly minimum by more than 60 percent to $15 for 6,300 people who work at the airport, hotels and nearby businesses.
Companies including parking lot operator MasterPark LLC had said the higher pay might lead to job losses. Since it passed, 140 MasterPark employees have received raises and the company hasn’t cut jobs because that might compromise service, managing partner Roger McCracken said.
'We’re in the valet business -- that means employees,' he said. Instead, the company responded by tacking on a 50-cent daily 'living-wage surcharge' to prices."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-05/washington-shows-highest-minimum-wage-state-beats-u-s-with-jobs.html
The_War_Wagon
06-03-14, 16:19
Can anyone play devils advocate for $15 minimum wage?
With the current crop of local fast food workers? NO.
Why stop @ $15/hr.? Why not $1,000/hr.? That way we can ALL afford what we want, work a 30 hour work-week (like they do in France), & EVERYBODY will be happy! :rolleyes:
There should be NO minimum wage at all.
You mean the wages should reflect the supply and demand of those goods and services? How revolutionary.
So hypothetical question:
If raising the minimum wage shows through facts to non-trivially improve the economy, does not cause job losses, and does not cause small businesses to close up shop, would you be for it at that point?
No. Even if it doesn't negatively impacts the economy in general I am opposed to programs that stunt personal growth and reward ineptitude.
BoringGuy45
06-03-14, 18:58
I'm pretty sure that's what liberals say about conservative ideas.
This is why nothing gets done in Congress.
Yes, but generally speaking, when the liberals do it, they stick to the conservatives' ideas supposedly serving the main enemies of the state: The racists and the evil corporations.
Lib: "The only reason you want to cut taxes is because you're a racist!"
Con: "I fail to see how cutting taxes is racist."
Lib: "The fact that you can't see how it's racist shows just how racist you are!"
Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."
Raising the minimum wage to $15 is a safety net for those who will not or cannot improve their position in the job market. It allows people with low skills and/or low motivation a comfortable place they need not rise above.
When I got my first job, it didn't even pay minimum wage! But I took it because I needed- and wanted a job and needed a stepping stone to my next better paying job.I am against raising the minimum because entry level jobs should not pay a living wage. They pay very little so you'll be motivated to get something better. No one should aspire to a career as a french fry cook at a fast food place!
Personally, the only folks I would pay a "living wage" to working in such positions are those who are so handicapped that they need it to be independant.
Other than that, raising the minimum wage to a "living wage" is a good tool for the government to lock people into low skill, dead end jobs, deaden their ambition and smother their desire for independence
ForTehNguyen
06-03-14, 21:22
the thing you forgot is, if you are unskilled you would never get that first job at $15/hour. Unskilled labor is not worth $15/hr. If you ever cant get that first job, youll never move anywhere. There would be a gigantic black market for labor if min wage was $15/hr
Thing is, Washington already has a $9.32 minimum wage, and it's doing better than most other states. I don't know if it's doing better because of the higher minimum wage or if it's doing better despite a higher minimum wage.
"Meanwhile job growth [in Washington State] continued at an average 0.8 percent annual pace, 0.3 percentage point above the national rate. Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years."
"SeaTac, Washington, a Seattle suburb where the major employer is the region’s international airport, voted in November to raise the hourly minimum by more than 60 percent to $15 for 6,300 people who work at the airport, hotels and nearby businesses.
Companies including parking lot operator MasterPark LLC had said the higher pay might lead to job losses. Since it passed, 140 MasterPark employees have received raises and the company hasn’t cut jobs because that might compromise service, managing partner Roger McCracken said.
'We’re in the valet business -- that means employees,' he said. Instead, the company responded by tacking on a 50-cent daily 'living-wage surcharge' to prices."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-05/washington-shows-highest-minimum-wage-state-beats-u-s-with-jobs.html Seatac lost $100's of dollars from me next week due to their high prices on rental cars, food, and lodging. It is far cheaper for me to go to Portland and drive north than to go to Seatac and drive south.
the thing you forgot is, if you are unskilled you would never get that first job at $15/hour. Unskilled labor is not worth $15/hr. If you ever cant get that first job, youll never move anywhere. There would be a gigantic black market for labor if min wage was $15/hr
I didn't forget that at all. I'm against raising the minimum wage to $15 because minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. People shouldn't be making careers of mimimum wage jobs and it's wrong to encourage them to do so
Interesting story out of Seattle:
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2014/05/raise_minimum_w.html
While attending an event at a SeaTac hotel last week, I met two women who receive the $15/hour minimum wage. SeaTac has implemented the new law on Jan. 1. I met the women while they were working. One was a waitress and the other was cleaning the hallway.
"Are you happy with the $15 wage?" I asked the full-time cleaning lady.
"It sounds good, but it's not good," the woman said.
"Why?" I asked.
"I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation," she responded. "No more free food," she added.
The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.
What else? I asked.
"I have to pay for parking," she said.
I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.
"Yes, I've got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less," she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.
I don't know if this has been vetted/verified but it certainly seems plausible (and expected, honestly).
Crow Hunter
06-04-14, 08:49
Thing is, Washington already has a $9.32 minimum wage, and it's doing better than most other states. I don't know if it's doing better because of the higher minimum wage or if it's doing better despite a higher minimum wage.
"Meanwhile job growth [in Washington State] continued at an average 0.8 percent annual pace, 0.3 percentage point above the national rate. Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years."
"SeaTac, Washington, a Seattle suburb where the major employer is the region’s international airport, voted in November to raise the hourly minimum by more than 60 percent to $15 for 6,300 people who work at the airport, hotels and nearby businesses.
Companies including parking lot operator MasterPark LLC had said the higher pay might lead to job losses. Since it passed, 140 MasterPark employees have received raises and the company hasn’t cut jobs because that might compromise service, managing partner Roger McCracken said.
'We’re in the valet business -- that means employees,' he said. Instead, the company responded by tacking on a 50-cent daily 'living-wage surcharge' to prices."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-05/washington-shows-highest-minimum-wage-state-beats-u-s-with-jobs.html
I think it is an admirable experiment. We only have theories about what it will do so I say try it on a limited basis and see if it works. Just make sure that all the factors are looked at when the data is analyzed and don't bias it towards any particular philosophy. It either works or it doesn't.
I hope it does. I hope it fixes all our economic problems and lifts everyone out of poverty and we start a utopian society. I hope the "rising tide lifts all boats" theory of bottom up economics will work. I honestly would take a cut in pay if I knew it would lift everyone else out of poverty and eliminate wants and needs.
But I don't think it will.
I haven't worked for minimum wage since I first started sacking groceries at my cousin's grocery store in October 1989 for $3.25/hr (right after I turned 16 so I had an excuse to drive and could have gas money.) My other "entry level" (in school/summer jobs), English tutor, Computer lab tech, "bundle boy" at a Carhartt overalls factory, research assistant, night watchman/manager, oil change monkey all were more than minimum wage. Sometimes significantly over minimum wage. Heck, I did so good as a "bundle boy" by changing the layouts of the assembly line at Carhartt that I eliminated my own job by the end of the summer and I was asked to come back the following summer to do it in a different area with a $2/hr raise and it was already several $ over the minimum wage of the time.
People stuck in minimum wage jobs their whole lives have GOT to have other issues to have not had a job that pays more than the minimum. Issues that will make them less valuable to their employer than a touch screen.
And it WILL happen.
Just look at your local Wal-mart/grocery store. One person now manages 3 or sometimes 4 self check out kiosks. Double that persons pay and it will be cheaper to imbed RFID chips in everything in the store and just have people walk up to a kiosk and swipe their cards/feed in money and just walk out with what they have in the bags and all you will need is someone to stock shelves at night. Even that could be automated. I worked in plants in the late 1990's and the early 2000's that had eliminated most of their material handling using AGVs and that was nothing compared to the automation available now.
We are on the cusp of a serious change in the way things are done (like the changes due to the mechanization of farming) and this might be enough to get that ball rolling.
Let's see, help 2% of the population making minimum, devalue 100% of everyone's buying power, savings, assets...yep, sounds like a progressive idea to me!
Instead of talking of increasing the minimum wage lets talk about reducing the upper management and CEO pay and benefits,cut politician pay and retirement benefits as well as unionized government employees.
No you cannot. There is no good reason to raise the minimum wage to that level.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Instead of talking of increasing the minimum wage lets talk about reducing the upper management and CEO pay and benefits,cut politician pay and retirement benefits as well as unionized government employees.
How would you cut upper management and CEO pay? New legislation that has a pay cap?
Politicians don't actually make a whole lot of money, the majority of people in government take a large pay cut to sit in a government job.
Unions though, I agree.
brickboy240
06-04-14, 15:03
Many of you, obviously do not own your own business.
Listen...in order for people to START new businesses or run their own business...it HAS to pay well. Very well.
Why?
Well, because it has to be "worth it" to own and run a business, due to the liability and stress involved in doing so. It is MY butt on the line....MY butt that could get dragged into court, fined by some govt agency or shut down if one thing goes wrong. My butt...not the employees that don't own a part of the business!!
So yes, a huge problem in why the unemployment rate is where it is and why business start-up is at record lows is because it has become a real pain and huge liability to own or run a business.
Many employees just do not get this...but I swear it is true. They think the CEO or owners make too damn much money and THEY should be paid more.
First, the amount of risk/liability and stress level warrants me making good money. Second...I have found that automatically paying employees more money does NOT guarantee that they will work harder, longer or more efficiently. It does not always make them care more.
When your name is on the door and your butt is on the line when things go wrong....it changes your perspective!
-brickboy240
Many of you, obviously do not own your own business.
Listen...in order for people to START new businesses or run their own business...it HAS to pay well. Very well.
Why?
Well, because it has to be "worth it" to own and run a business, due to the liability and stress involved in doing so. It is MY butt on the line....MY butt that could get dragged into court, fined by some govt agency or shut down if one thing goes wrong. My butt...not the employees that don't own a part of the business!!
So yes, a huge problem in why the unemployment rate is where it is and why business start-up is at record lows is because it has become a real pain and huge liability to own or run a business.
Many employees just do not get this...but I swear it is true. They think the CEO or owners make too damn much money and THEY should be paid more.
First, the amount of risk/liability and stress level warrants me making good money. Second...I have found that automatically paying employees more money does NOT guarantee that they will work harder, longer or more efficiently. It does not always make them care more.
When your name is on the door and your butt is on the line when things go wrong....it changes your perspective!
-brickboy240
Why aren't you set up as an LLC or corporation?
brickboy240
06-04-14, 15:18
I am but it STILL means I am responsible...especially when it comes to the legal system.
And again...it has to pay very well to own and run a company or why the hell do it?
If you workers do not like the fact that the CEO makes tons more...do what I did...go strike out on your own. Do it while you still can.
Do it and then you will not be arguing for a 15 dollar minimum wage or other nonsense like that.
-brickboy240
morbidbattlecry
06-04-14, 15:21
I don't know if its been stated before yet but. From what i understand if you had indexed the minimum wage to inflation starting in the 80's is should be close to 15 dollars an hour. Its not really an issue of what said workers are getting payed to do its an inflation thing. Now i don't know if that was what they where thinking in WA or something else.
If I owned a business and were forced to pay workers a wage I couldn't pay and still be very comfortable myself, I'd go back to work for a corporate machine, do what I'm told in whatever sad little functionary role I could land, and enjoy life on different terms. Less risk, less responsibility, fewer hours.
With war declared on my incentive to have my own business, why would I go on with that endeavor?
If I owned a business and were forced to pay workers a wage I couldn't pay and still be very comfortable myself, I'd go back to work for a corporate machine, do what I'm told in whatever sad little functionary role I could land, and enjoy life on different terms. Less risk, less responsibility, fewer hours.
With war declared on my incentive to have my own business, why would I go on with that endeavor?
Your incentive to have your own business is to pay your employees as little as you can legally get away with?
Your incentive to have your own business is to pay your employees as little as you can legally get away with?
That's not at all what he said.
ForTehNguyen
06-04-14, 18:01
Your incentive to have your own business is to pay your employees as little as you can legally get away with?
You want to run your business with as low expenses as possible. Do you not go out and look for the lowest price and best deal when you buy things? What makes buying labor any different?
Your incentive to have your own business is to pay your employees as little as you can legally get away with?
Nope. Every business owner has incentive to pay employees on the whole the amount they can make the most profit with. For a small number of fields where the value of the labor provided is such that workers cannot legitimately bargain for a wage higher than the minimum legislated wage floor, then being forced to pay more per worker hour than that laborer is worth becomes a disincentive to have that person hired on, and if automation is an option it ends up being more attractive; either way that becomes a disincentive to run a business, because employees cannot be hired on for the hourly wage that earns the business maximum revenue. For most businesses, employers don't want the sort of employees that can be attracted by just $8/hr, and end up paying a significant fraction of money saved having to manage those employees (which is why proportionally so few jobs pay min wage), but it's really easy to look at the value of unskilled labor and realize that for a person without disability being worth less than $10 to an employer takes almost conscious effort to be either untrustworthy, unskilled, or bad at interpersonal interactions.
I don't know if its been stated before yet but. From what i understand if you had indexed the minimum wage to inflation starting in the 80's is should be close to 15 dollars an hour. Its not really an issue of what said workers are getting payed to do its an inflation thing. Now i don't know if that was what they where thinking in WA or something else.
It's actually like $22 an hour. I say again, why do we have inflation? What's wrong with our money? WHOOOO keeps getting involved in the economy that raises the cost of living?
Why aren't you set up as an LLC or corporation?
LLC or Corp doesn't protect you from shit these days. On a financial side, try getting any credit these days with a small Corp without signing a personal guarantee. What difference is it if I get sued or the Corp I own the shares in gets sued? If I lose I am still screwed.
Don Robison
06-05-14, 00:44
About all I see coming out of a $15 minimum wage is minimum wage workers having a little more money to not be able to afford things with since prices will increase accordingly to make up for the increased labor cost of unskilled labor.
I picked asparagus for 7 cents a pound when I was a kid and worked my way up to 11 cents a pound before I found a farmer willing to pay $1.35 an hour. They would have stopped growing or found someone other than 12-15 year old kids to pick if they had to pay entry level skilled labor prices for something that could be done by someone without a grade school education.
You want to run your business with as low expenses as possible. Do you not go out and look for the lowest price and best deal when you buy things? What makes buying labor any different?
Exactly. I would pay a premium wage for premium skill, dedication, and attitude. But for unskilled labor, I would pay what I calculated to be an optimal balance between being affordable for my customers, making a profit worth the risks/hassles of running a business, and getting decent workers. The higher the cost of labor is raised artificially the more sense it makes to mechanize and automate, or for some companies, offshore.
Just the increased cost of health insurance recently I see a dramatic reduction in numbers of waitresses at restaurants, with much longer wait times (thus less turnover of diners and less total sales I would expect). And as mentioned already, many companies will offset the increased wage with reductions in benefits such as health insurance, 401K matching, vacation time, education reimbursement, meals, employee discounts, etc. And customers may offset increased cost of services with reduction in tips, less frequent purchases, buying more online or elsewhere, DIY, etc.
I didn't forget that at all. I'm against raising the minimum wage to $15 because minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. People shouldn't be making careers of mimimum wage jobs and it's wrong to encourage them to do so
This is a great analysis. Yes they work pretty hard taking orders on their feet 8 hours a day for menial pay but that is designed to prepare them for the next level, not keep them there forever.
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