View Full Version : My Spinoff of the M16A4
Yesterday, the big brown truck of happiness brought the final components to my build and I finished it up last night. I wanted a more modern 20in rifle, my current older bushmaster A2 is a great rifle but I wanted a flat top receiver along with a collapsible buttstock for more versatility and I decided to build my own. I tend to shoot the 20in rifles a bit better than my M4geries and in general prefer how they handle in comparison as well, especially with this one having the VLTOR setup with a collapsible stock, it balances great - right at the delta ring and it doesn't seem that heavy in comparison to my A2 or my other AR's. This will serve as a general purpose do-all rifle for me; hunting, SHTF, carbine courses and also a bit of distance shooting as well.
Parts list;
BCM 20in gov't profile upper (upper & barrel set)
PSA unmarked upgraded BCG (soon to be replaced by a spikes tactical as I stole this from one of my other rifles)
Aero Precision complete lower
VLTOR A5 system (minus the stock)
Magpul MOE grip
Magpul MOE rifle length handguards
Magpul MOE mil spec stock
Magpul gen2 BUIS
currently the optic is a Vortex Sparc, but that will be replaced with a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 red dot scope on a Burris PEPR mount... maybe.
I still have a few things that I want to get for it, like a white light (inforce WML), a decent sling (open to suggestions) and maybe a rail down the road if I can justify it. Another issue I am having is deciding between an AFG2 or a VFG, seems like alot of the 20in rifles have VFG's but I am unsure... guess I need to buy both and do some testing on which one works best for me, but I am open to suggestions on that as well if anyone can point me in the right direction.
anyway, here are some crap cellphone pictures - I apologize but it's all I have at the moment, no fancy cameras at my disposal.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140531_131230_zpsbe463055.jpg
this shot kinda shows the size difference in comparison to a standard M4gerie with a 16in BBL, this is a friend of mines 'beater rifle' that he let me grab to check out his VX-R and do a little polishing on the trigger.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140531_131513_zpsbfaf4c73.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140530_185327_zpsa4323957.jpg
BCM really loads you up on their stuff, I really like the hat! and tons of stickers for my toolbox and rear window of my car as well.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/Mobile%20Uploads/20140530_180933_zpsb0e4e7b1.jpg
Closeup of the Aero precision lower
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/Mobile%20Uploads/20140530_175028_zpse5affeb7.jpg
VLTOR A5 setup as recommended by Iraqgunz and a few others on this board.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/Mobile%20Uploads/20140530_170822_zps7a41f4c9.jpg
So far, I can't seem to put it down... thoroughly digging this rifle, if I didn't have to work today I would be burning up the 500 rounds that I bought for the sole purpose of breaking this puppy in.
I am always open for criticism, comments or any input y'all want to throw in.
Eurodriver
05-31-14, 17:23
Hi Brian. You seem to be headed in the right direction, and you've got some quality parts on that rifle. But as someone who has been in your exact shoes before I have to ask why.
Why a 20" given its capabilities aren't much improved from a 16"?
Hi Brian. You seem to be headed in the right direction, and you've got some quality parts on that rifle. But as someone who has been in your exact shoes before I have to ask why.
Why a 20" given its capabilities aren't much improved from a 16"?
To be completely honest, its just what I prefer and what I am used to. I learned on an a2, have shot them more than any other rifle and it is what I shoot the best due to that comfort level. Nothing more, nothing less.
Depending on what you mean by this?
Hi Brian. You seem to be headed in the right direction, and you've got some quality parts on that rifle. But as someone who has been in your exact shoes before I have to ask why.
Why a 20" given its capabilities aren't much improved from a 16"?
Why a 20"
Terminal ballistics. Sight radius. Cool factor.
All the reasons above, and it's just what I prefer.
Eurodriver
05-31-14, 22:21
Let me rephrase - in my experience the 20" ARs improved ballistics is not enough to warrant the extra weight and length. Why are you drawn to it?
If that's what you prefer, by all means do your thing. I was just curious. I carried an A4 for years and aside from the kneeling position of the KD course I never found myself glad that I didn't have an M4.
I understand, I actually have been questioned on my choice as well when I showed up to carbine courses with my A2. Most people think I am nuts, some think its cool and then there are a few that are on the same page as me (only 2 time have I come across others that also use a2's or a4's).
I give them the same reason, it is just what I am used to, prefer and shoot the best. And sometimes when I use an M4 style with carbine handguards I end up burning myself on the FSB and prefer longer handguards like middies and dissipators. I could have gone that direction but chose to make a gun that not only was exactly what I wanted but also what I am used to and have been training with, just modernized. The extra velocity/terminal ballistics and sight radius are only bonuses to my preference. The weight is the con, along with it being harder to manuever in CQB and building clearing drills - but I feel that is a software problem that can be overcome with training.
I suspect a lot of the negative perception about the A4 as a practical choice comes not from the 20" barrel but from the A2 stock. Once fitted with a carbine stock, it handles more like a carbine as one would expect. A lot of recent interest in 20" builds has been driven, I think, by Vltor's A5 system, though one does not need an A5 per se for such a build. Of course the A5 has become so popular in shorter-barreled builds that people forget that it was originally created to be the future of 20" rifles. With the recent release of A4's by Colt and FN, 20" rifles seem to be becoming more popular if not so much as the SBR fad.
BrigandTwoFour
06-01-14, 00:22
Looks good! The 20" is a pleasure to shoot. I've been enjoying the hell out of mine. I certainly understand the appeal and utility of the shorter 16" guns, but there's just something about a 20" government that "feels" right. And I say that having almost never shot them until I picked one up for myself.
I don't know what kind of shooting you primarily do, but do you really have a need for a VFG/AFG? I thought it was a standard thing to have until I took them off and practiced with a slick-bottomed configuration. But, I think that has to do more with the type of shooting that I typically do. If you're doing tactical classes, I can accept that they may be of benefit.
BrigandTwoFour
06-01-14, 00:34
I suspect a lot of the negative perception about the A4 as a practical choice comes not from the 20" barrel but from the A2 stock. Once fitted with a carbine stock, it handles more like a carbine as one would expect. A lot of recent interest in 20" builds has been driven, I think, by Vltor's A5 system, though one does not need an A5 per se for such a build. Of course the A5 has become so popular in shorter-barreled builds that people forget that it was originally created to be the future of 20" rifles. With the recent release of A4's by Colt and FN, 20" rifles seem to be becoming more popular if not so much as the SBR fad.
You know, I'm noticing the same trend. That's three builds in the last couple weeks (including mine) that fall into this 20" upper with collapsable stock. I've seen them popping up elsewhere. I've been thinking about why this might be happening.
One reason might be that people already have several "standard" configurations in the 16" realm, are are just looking for something relatively new and different from what everyone else has. If they can't do an SBR for legal or financial reasons, going the opposite direction stands out just as well.
Another reason might be the practicality of it. There's a lot of Tactical Timmy types out there who bought whatever gun they did out of some Walter Mitty fantasy about the end of the world and defending their home from terrorists, zombies, and JBTs. These guys have been flooding ranges and message boards (not as much around here, M4C has a much better signal:noise ratio on that) telling everyone else what they "need." But I think a lot of folks have been at it for a while now, and are finding out that there's other configurations that might just suit their needs better than trying to copy whatever SOCOM units are sporting these days. 99.9% of average gun owners are not going to be using their carbine to fight their way out of vehicles, breach doors and clear a house, or make a last stand against the zombie hordes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with learning those skills. But doing so exclusively at the expense of the many other varieties of ways to enjoy shooting just doesn't seem practical.
Moonlight Again
06-01-14, 09:04
Trifecta:
I like the way you've put it together. I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but "rifle gas" is one of the reasons I love the 20" tube. Yeah, with the increasing popularity of middies some of the advantage has gone away, but a rifle gas/rifle buffer setup (or, as here, a rifle gas/A5 setup) is just so dang smooth shooting.
I prefer shooting the 20" AR myself. There's something about the balance, smooth swing and the way the rifle hangs when shooting unsupported that calls to me. The 20" shoots softer and there is a noticeable difference in trajectory at the further ranges between the 16" & 20" barrel. If I had the money, I'd build a 20" flatop upper with a lightweight profile barrel with the 1:8 twist for general farting around. It's not that I dislike the shorter barrels- I love shooting my 16" carbine and have been jonseing for an SBR since I've had the chance to shoot one- but the 20" just feels right.
Trifecta, I think you've knocked this one out of the park. It's simple, straight forward and isn't anything it isn't supposed to be. The only changes I'd make would be to remove the rail sections, install the thicker buttpad on the MOE stock, a sling, then a light for those times it stands guard against that which goes bump in the night
Very nice. I also have an Aero lower with a 20" BCM upper. I haven't shot it yet though since I still need a trigger group and the time to work it out.
There's a lot to be said for having a variety of weapons. I started that build because I wanted something like what I had on my first deployment to Iraq. ..as well as owning an M9. Everything has it's place. If people don't like it, they can suck it.
I prefer shooting the 20" AR myself. There's something about the balance, smooth swing and the way the rifle hangs when shooting unsupported that calls to me. The 20" shoots softer and there is a noticeable difference in trajectory at the further ranges between the 16" & 20" barrel. If I had the money, I'd build a 20" flatop upper with a lightweight profile barrel with the 1:8 twist for general farting around. It's not that I dislike the shorter barrels- I love shooting my 16" carbine and have been jonseing for an SBR since I've had the chance to shoot one- but the 20" just feels right.
Trifecta, I think you've knocked this one out of the park. It's simple, straight forward and isn't anything it isn't supposed to be. The only changes I'd make would be to remove the rail sections, install the thicker buttpad on the MOE stock, a sling, then a light for those times it stands guard against that which goes bump in the night
Appreciate it man, I want to try either an AFG2 or VFG and see if I prefer either one of those or just a slick bottom for general overall handling. A for a light, I a planning on putting a Inforce WML on there for those times when it will be standing guard instead of my mossberg 590. You and I have similar preferences when it comes to the 20in rifles, they just feel right.
Still need to decide on which sling I want to go with, just a very simple 2 point sling - I dislike overly complicated slings.
My two point sling. The rear uses a QD swivel mounted to the right rear top of the buttstock
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0030.jpg
Front
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0201.jpg
I use an HK hook so I can swap the sling between different rifles
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/ARPile002_zpsfe1ba810.jpg
If you don't want to use a quick adjustable sling, you can use a simple carry strap
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0196.jpg
Just make sure it's long enough to carry the rifle "South African" style
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0012-1.jpg
YAAARGH!! Unintended post. I blame it on the Communists
BrigandTwoFour
06-01-14, 16:23
Appreciate it man, I want to try either an AFG2 or VFG and see if I prefer either one of those or just a slick bottom for general overall handling. A for a light, I a planning on putting a Inforce WML on there for those times when it will be standing guard instead of my mossberg 590. You and I have similar preferences when it comes to the 20in rifles, they just feel right.
Still need to decide on which sling I want to go with, just a very simple 2 point sling - I dislike overly complicated slings.
A two point is the obvious choice on a rifle like this. The type will depend on what you want to use it for, though. A traditional style loop sling (not necessarily a 1907, but something like a TAB gear sling) makes sense for simple carry and practical marksmanship work. But something like a VCAS also works well for a general purpose tactical type.
Rifles Only recently put out their own brand of gear labeled as FTW. Their bungee sling actually looks like a near perfect compromise between a tactical two point and a traditional rifle loop sling.
A two point is the obvious choice on a rifle like this. The type will depend on what you want to use it for, though. A traditional style loop sling (not necessarily a 1907, but something like a TAB gear sling) makes sense for simple carry and practical marksmanship work. But something like a VCAS also works well for a general purpose tactical type.
Rifles Only recently put out their own brand of gear labeled as FTW. Their bungee sling actually looks like a near perfect compromise between a tactical two point and a traditional rifle loop sling.
I will definitely look into that, thanks for the heads up.
I like them.. I just put my BCM 20" upper on a carbine lower/tail.. It's the bomb...
Moonlight Again
06-01-14, 18:23
I like them.. I just put my BCM 20" upper on a carbine lower/tail.. It's the bomb...
Dude I hate to go OT, but I love your avatar.
BrigandTwoFour
06-01-14, 18:26
Just make sure it's long enough to carry the rifle "South African" style
It's funny you mention that. I just came across "Carrying African style" last week, and just started practicing it with my bolt gun two days ago. It's dramatically different than the "dynamic" style most folks use these days, but it makes a lot of sense. It's definitely a lot faster than the traditional American style sling carry.
Skip to 1:50 for African carry demo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJAUGI4MRgo#t=109
Dude I hate to go OT, but I love your avatar.
<<<=8)
I tried to find the old photo showing soldiers of the South African Defence Force using the South African Carry with their R1s but my search-fu has failed me. But I did find a photo of Finnish troops
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/FDF/Finishbad-asses2.jpg
As you can see, it's the method of slinging a rifle that's being used today- nothing unusual.
The African Carry demonstrated in the video is fast, but not what I was referring to
It's also called "Walking Rhodesian"..
Heh! The Rhodies were forbidden to use rifle slings during the Bush Wars and even went so far as to remove the sling swivels from their FALs. They wanted the soldiers to keep their rifles in hand during patrols. The brass was worried the soldiers would get lazy and would be too slow getting their rifles into action
Looks good, I like AR15A2/A4's too. I'll be putting together a A4 upper pretty soon.
NYH1.
Looks good, I like AR15A2/A4's too. I'll be putting together a A4 upper pretty soon.
NYH1.
I cant recommend the BCM 20in govt profile upper enough, it really is a work of art. Are you planning on running handguards or a rail?
Arkansas Bob
06-03-14, 22:48
20s are cool
I cant recommend the BCM 20in govt profile upper enough, it really is a work of art.
Highly recommended.
My first AR back in the late 90's was a 20" Armalite A2, neutered of course, because of the ban. I would like to have another like it, if for nothing else than nostalgia. Plus it makes a decent tool, should the need arise. This time, I'd use top quality parts, an A5 RE with collapsable stock and a medium weight barrel instead of the Armalite's heavy barrel.
To the OP, very cool rifle. All these 20" builds really have me salivating for a musket. I have a couple of 14.5"ers and 16"'ers, but still like the 20"ers a lot. Like how they balance and the sight radius. I'm very hot on the idea of a 20" build myself, but will go with an A1 length stock since I live in a ban state.
For the users of the BCM 20" upper setup, what was the main driver of purchasing this brand? Is there an accuracy level that is attained on the BCM setup, that is deficient in other brand's platforms? I'm well aware of BCM's reputation for quality, but is there an accuracy advantage in the BCM upper over other makes? I find the Gov't profile a little weird and would prefer an A1 configuration or even a med weight setup. Or, are you satisfied with the accuracy capability you're getting out of the BCM barrel?
BrigandTwoFour
06-05-14, 11:56
To the OP, very cool rifle. All these 20" builds really have me salivating for a musket. I have a couple of 14.5"ers and 16"'ers, but still like the 20"ers a lot. Like how they balance and the sight radius. I'm very hot on the idea of a 20" build myself, but will go with an A1 length stock since I live in a ban state.
For the users of the BCM 20" upper setup, what was the main driver of purchasing this brand? Is there an accuracy level that is attained on the BCM setup, that is deficient in other brand's platforms? I'm well aware of BCM's reputation for quality, but is there an accuracy advantage in the BCM upper over other makes? I find the Gov't profile a little weird and would prefer an A1 configuration or even a med weight setup. Or, are you satisfied with the accuracy capability you're getting out of the BCM barrel?
For me, at least, choosing BCM was mostly because it's a known quality, and it was available. I don't know of too many other companies producing 20" government uppers. I know PSA is out there, and I'm sure there are others, but I just have my preferences. I didn't need anything fancy. I suppose that if I needed a more specialized configuration (slick side, pencil barrel, etc), then I would have gone elsewhere (Fulton, maybe?). But, as I said, BCM is a known quality and they had what I wanted.
To the OP, very cool rifle. All these 20" builds really have me salivating for a musket. I have a couple of 14.5"ers and 16"'ers, but still like the 20"ers a lot. Like how they balance and the sight radius. I'm very hot on the idea of a 20" build myself, but will go with an A1 length stock since I live in a ban state.
For the users of the BCM 20" upper setup, what was the main driver of purchasing this brand? Is there an accuracy level that is attained on the BCM setup, that is deficient in other brand's platforms? I'm well aware of BCM's reputation for quality, but is there an accuracy advantage in the BCM upper over other makes? I find the Gov't profile a little weird and would prefer an A1 configuration or even a med weight setup. Or, are you satisfied with the accuracy capability you're getting out of the BCM barrel?
A couple reasons are behind my purchase with BCM;
Known quality
in stock
I prefer the govt profile
These had the specifications that I demanded for this rifle.
Accuracy has been about 1-1.5 moa with federal m193 and under 1moa with a friends 77gr handloads.
For the users of the BCM 20" upper setup, what was the main driver of purchasing this brand?
1. Quality
2. A4 configuration
3. Quality
4. Availability
5. Quality
Right now BCM is the only option for a factory A4 upper that I would recommend (unless you can get your hands on a real M16A4 upper from FN -- not their FN-15 atrocity).
I need to do more testing to verify, but initial trials with 77 grain SMK (MK262 Mod 1 clone) also appears to be producing 1 MOA on my 20" BCM build.
Eurodriver
06-06-14, 19:50
I just bought a 20" upper.
What a difference a week makes. Good choice OP!
I just bought a 20" upper.
What a difference a week makes. Good choice OP!
Congrats, you've made a fine choice. I am still loving mine, several hundred rounds down range with no hiccups and nothing but x-rings. Can't wait to drag it to the next carbine course.
BrigandTwoFour
06-07-14, 11:14
I just bought a 20" upper.
What a difference a week makes. Good choice OP!
And another one is converted, lol.
What do you plan on doing with it?
OP, nice rifle. I really like that set up. Now you have me thinking, LOL.
I have a ban era 20" upper, used to be an A2, swapped out the receiver and had the barrel threaded. Anyhow, if I were to just slap a carbine stock on it, what buffer would you guys recommend?
Moonlight Again
06-09-14, 17:50
OP, nice rifle. I really like that set up. Now you have me thinking, LOL.
I have a ban era 20" upper, used to be an A2, swapped out the receiver and had the barrel threaded. Anyhow, if I were to just slap a carbine stock on it, what buffer would you guys recommend?
Vltor A5.
OP, nice rifle. I really like that set up. Now you have me thinking, LOL.
I have a ban era 20" upper, used to be an A2, swapped out the receiver and had the barrel threaded. Anyhow, if I were to just slap a carbine stock on it, what buffer would you guys recommend?
I echo moonlight_again, the VLTOR setup may be a bit pricey but it's 110% worth it. Smoothest shooting gun I own, and so far 700 rounds with no hiccups including steel cased mixed with brass (m193). Alpha ops Has the whole setup for $105+ shipping.
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