View Full Version : Gun Safety: Does It Start In The Home Or The Gun Shop...?
https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10356307_244545565752982_7669112966668787104_n.jpg
Jesus, you'd think if ANYONE would know not to point a gun at another person it should be the guy behind the counter with over 20 years experience.
Maybe ONE of those guns isn't in line with the guy in front of it, but no way both are safe.
You know I appreciate your commentary here as well as you as a person, but to be honest this be a wee bit of nit-picking my good man.
Not worth your time.
Moose-Knuckle
06-05-14, 15:27
If you don't follow the OP's "Four Rules" FB page, this is from one of his postings over there.
If you don't follow the OP's "Four Rules" FB page, this is from one of his postings over there.
I've seen it and while not a member of facebook appreciate his efforts. That said I'm about as worried that the fairly knowledgeable man who possibly appears to be holding the HK pointed at his co-worker without his finger on the trigger is about to commit involuntary manslaughter as I am that my grandmother is going to come slash the tires on my vehicle because I didn't call her yesterday.
There are so many genuine issues with firearm handling that to find one with this all circumstances considered seems trivial. These men are not part of our overall problem.
You know I appreciate your commentary here as well as you as a person, but to be honest this be a wee bit of nit-picking my good man.
Not worth your time.
I could not disagree more. With the exception of the rare mechanical failure, all unintended shootings are the result of a violation of one of four basic rules of gun safety. These are all preventable and nobody is exempt.
If you can't follow those four simple rules, you shouldn't own a gun. Jackasses who think they are "safe enough" are the ones end up unintentionally shooting people. And if people in a gun shop can't observe the basic rules of gun safety, why should anyone else think they should be required to?
The "rules are for other people" who don't have my experience mindset is exactly the problem. How many reports have we seen of dipshits shooting somebody with a gun because "it wasn't loaded?" Why should we assume these guys are any different?
This isn't "nit picking" this is me being completely fed up. We criticize those who "open carry" in a provocative way because it hurts us. Well how about people who can't follow four simple rules and contribute to everything required for a "negligent discharge"? Which one hurts us more?
Technically yes, maybe one of these guys is breaking a fundamental rule, although there is no way to tell if either barrel is pointed at a either man or just in front of them. Regardless NDs aren't what drive gun control, mass murders and minority generated crime stats are. Glad you want to keep people safe but again these guys are not our problem.
Want to spread an effective message and be heard? Start a page that calls for advocating accountability for minority generated crime. Bet it would be hassle free as well as rewarding.
A great man and firearms trainer once told me this....
Follow the 4 rules. If you break one of them, you will be OK. If you break any two of them at the same time, there will be a problem.
With that said, I wish I had a dollar for every person who has asked to handle a gun and flagged me with his/her finger on the trigger as they "felt" how the gun fit in their hands.
With that said, if you piss a customer off by calling them on their improper gun handling skills you could loose the sale.
This is why I always check the chamber before and after I hand the gun to a customer.
For me, it started at home, and was continually reinforced as I progressed thru Cub, Boy and Explorer Scouts, and the Army.
Today, too many adults pass their poor safety habits on to their kids, and most of the kids in this country never experience the Scout and military experience a lot of us did.
Technically yes, maybe one of these guys is breaking a fundamental rule, although there is no way to tell if either barrel is pointed at a either man or just in front of them. Regardless NDs aren't what drive gun control, mass murders and minority generated crime stats are. Glad you want to keep people safe but again these guys are not our problem.
Want to spread an effective message and be heard? Start a page that calls for advocating accountability for minority generated crime. Bet it would be hassle free as well as rewarding.
While the guy on the left isn't flagging yet, BOTH are unacceptably close. If somebody you didn't know swung a muzzle that close to your kids head I suspect you'd form a different opinion.
And I'm not trying to stop gun control with this message. I'm trying to stop careless firearms handling that results in somebody unintentionally shooting another person. And these guys ARE our problem, they are holding guns.
Anyone holding a gun in an unsafe manner IS the problem. It would have been just as simple for them to take almost the same exact picture with their muzzles both pointed in a safe direction. I'm not asking them to take a safety class, just observe the basic rules of gun safety which they SHOULD already know.
But more importantly, this is an EASY problem to solve, four very simple rules. If everyone with a gun would just be a little more responsible than the guys in the picture, we could eliminate all those accidents and people wouldn't have to live with the fact that they shot or killed somebody when they didn't mean to.
I suspect you don't like careless drivers on the highway who put others at risk? So I wonder why you are more accepting of people who are being careless with firearms?
And if we can solve this very simple problem, then maybe we can take a shot at something difficult to solve like people who want more gun regulation or minority driven crime or crimes committed by Eskimos or whatever you like.
But this one is easy, all we have to do is tell people when they are doing things that are unacceptable with firearms and make sure we follow the same four rules ourselves. That's it, it is really that simple.
I agree with you about the "rules for other people" deal... but in that picture I think both are pointed out... not at each other. I can see the hole in the muzzle of one and the other looks to be aiming across as well. ... and isn't the bolt open?
But anyway, yeah, the only way to change things is to constantly bring it to people's attention until it becomes common place.
This is something NRA or most anyone could get started via YouTube. A positive public service explaining how to always be mindful of the 4 rules and it would serve to bring firearms into the everyday life of people in a manner that's a true public safety message and not a pro/anti deal or hunting/tactical.
It should be similar to a buckle your seat belt deal or a healthy eating message, no smoking or whatever.... It should be a normal thing that you hear or see everyday as a natural part of living in America.
I agree with you about the "rules for other people" deal... but in that picture I think both are pointed out... not at each other. I can see the hole in the muzzle of one and the other looks to be aiming across as well. ... and isn't the bolt open?
But anyway, yeah, the only way to change things is to constantly bring it to people's attention until it becomes common place.
This is something NRA or most anyone could get started via YouTube. A positive public service explaining how to always be mindful of the 4 rules and it would serve to bring firearms into the everyday life of people in a manner that's a true public safety message and not a pro/anti deal or hunting/tactical.
It should be similar to a buckle your seat belt deal or a healthy eating message, no smoking or whatever.... It should be a normal thing that you hear or see everyday as a natural part of living in America.
Guy on the left who isn't quite flagging guy on right has bolt open, no magazine and finger off the trigger and it looks like the selector is on safe. I still would have yelled "Woah" long before he swung it that close to my head but he isn't flagging yet.
HOWEVER, guy on right is or is damn near flagging, bolt is closed with a magazine inserted and I believe the selector set to semi auto. I've seen people get ejected from the range for this sort of thing and I've seen people want to start fights over it. Careless, preventable and should never be accepted.
And I'm doing my best to put the word out. I created a FB page just for people who don't know better or never were taught correctly. Please feel free to send it to anyone you think may benefit.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Four-Simple-Rules/237267769814095
And bad as I think the above example is, it's no where near as "HOLY CRAP SCARY" as this one.
https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10367605_244442102429995_9020951818858889970_n.jpg
Everybody but the person who looks like the responsible party has a gun pointed at them and plenty of ammo for everyone.
The ding dong on the right, looking to shoot here support hand is the only one I'm seeing.
There are two other guns with the cylinders open. I prefer not to point a revolver even with the cylinder open, but like a pistol with the slide locked back, or securely holstered, I don't as assed up as if it were held in the firing hand.
Yep, all I see is the lady ready to shoot her finger off. Although Rosam Barr(ell) looks like she's loading up for a gut shot so she probably won't miss the finger.
SA, I can see the hole in the muzzle for guy on right, but I didn't realize that was a mag..... !!! I would be heading for the door. Showing off a loaded gun in a gun shop is just asking for trouble, I don't care where it's pointed.
https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10356307_244545565752982_7669112966668787104_n.jpg
Jesus, you'd think if ANYONE would know not to point a gun at another person it should be the guy behind the counter with over 20 years experience.
Most gun dealers have horrible muzzle discipline, shooting ability, firearms knowledge and tend to be a bit on the crazy side.
C4
Most gun dealers have horrible muzzle discipline, shooting ability, firearms knowledge and tend to be a bit on the crazy side.
Gun dealers aren't always my favorite crowd either, but again taking this image of two men with what appears to be a rather impressive inventory and essentially shaming them based upon speculation in a well known national forum reeks of counter-productivity from my vantage point.
Kind of like someone taking a single minor incident at a shoot house that was recorded and using it to publicly and needlessly slander those involved. Yes, I mean that time.
Gun dealers aren't always my favorite crowd either, but again taking this image of two men with what appears to be a rather impressive inventory and essentially shaming them based upon speculation in a well known national forum reeks of counter-productivity from my vantage point.
Kind of like someone taking a single minor incident at a shoot house that was recorded and using it to publicly and needlessly slander those involved. Yes, I mean that time.
If I can shame them into being safer with firearms that is productive. If I can use their image to get other people to understand what is wrong with what they are doing that is productive.
It also isn't speculation, both men do NOT have their muzzle pointed in a safe direction, one is just a lot more not safe than the other. Again, how close do you allow people to muzzle sweep you before you stop them? I typically don't wait until I see rifling.
I use their example because just like "law enforcement and military" there are some people, like gun dealers, who you would expect would follow all the rules of gun safety. Again if anyone should know better, it should be them.
The ding dong on the right, looking to shoot here support hand is the only one I'm seeing.
There are two other guns with the cylinders open. I prefer not to point a revolver even with the cylinder open, but like a pistol with the slide locked back, or securely holstered, I don't as assed up as if it were held in the firing hand.
You have more faith in the ladies than I.
I am not going to assume that the two on the table aren't loaded. I'm not going to assume that once loaded, the lady in question will begin to observe strict muzzle discipline.
You have more faith in the ladies than I
Don't jump the gun. No one has less faith in dizzy women than I.
I could not disagree more. With the exception of the rare mechanical failure, all unintended shootings are the result of a violation of one of four basic rules of gun safety. These are all preventable and nobody is exempt.
If you can't follow those four simple rules, you shouldn't own a gun. Jackasses who think they are "safe enough" are the ones end up unintentionally shooting people. And if people in a gun shop can't observe the basic rules of gun safety, why should anyone else think they should be required to?
The "rules are for other people" who don't have my experience mindset is exactly the problem. How many reports have we seen of dipshits shooting somebody with a gun because "it wasn't loaded?" Why should we assume these guys are any different?
This isn't "nit picking" this is me being completely fed up. We criticize those who "open carry" in a provocative way because it hurts us. Well how about people who can't follow four simple rules and contribute to everything required for a "negligent discharge"? Which one hurts us more?
SteyrAUG, I cannot agree more with your disagreement. I'm inspired by your goal and I will make it a point to call attention to these errors when I see them.
Safetyhit, If ever you catch me or see a photo of me engaging in fundamentally unsafe behavior with a firearm, this is your public invitation to point it out, shame me, make an example of me, and do your best to make sure no one else repeats my idiotic mistake. I don't care if its in a shoot house or behind the counter of a gun shop.
...and its not slander if it actually happened and you are looking at photographic evidence of it.
Safetyhit, If ever you catch me or see a photo of me engaging in fundamentally unsafe behavior with a firearm, this is your public invitation to point it out, shame me, make an example of me, and do your best to make sure no one else repeats my idiotic mistake. I don't care if its in a shoot house or behind the counter of a gun shop.
Very noble of you but again there is no clear evidence either weapon is actually pointed at anyone, in fact the more I look the less I see it. And even if one was, which is again more speculation, I'm not condemning them as professionals in general to this extent because one bolt is retracted and the other that isn't is clearly pointed forward with no finger on trigger.
Honestly I think if it were not for the goof on the right Steyr wouldn't even have noticed. :)
Very noble of you but again there is no clear evidence either weapon is actually pointed at anyone, in fact the more I look the less I see it. And even if one was, which is again more speculation, I'm not condemning them as professionals in general to this extent because one bolt is retracted and the other that isn't is clearly pointed forward with no finger on trigger.
Honestly I think if it were not for the goof on the right Steyr wouldn't even have noticed. :)
If it were not for the individual on the right, I wouldn't have used it as an example. While I feel the guy on the left is "uncomfortably close" he doesn't appear to be flagging and that might be picking nits.
But the guy on the right is definitely in the "doing it wrong" category and I honestly can't even believe it is being debated on this forum. The four rules aren't about breaking out a micrometer and seeing if you are "there yet or not" the four rules are about being as safe as possible that way if you trip over a carpet your muzzle isn't only 3" from dead center on the man next to you.
And posing for pictures doesn't change the rules. In fact it is the perfect time to demonstrate responsible gun handling so that everyone who see's it can follow your example.
...but again there is no clear evidence either weapon is actually pointed at anyone, in fact the more I look the less I see it.
I think the point has been clearly made, but I'd still like to spell it out in my own words: I would not be comfortable with, nor would I accept anyone pointing the muzzle of any gun in the general vicinity of my direction. Whether or not they are pointing the guns exactly center mass at each other is not the point. WHether the guns are unloaded and/or locked open is not the point. The point is that those are both unsafe muzzle directions and it sets a bad example. Especially when the example is being set by someone who the general public considers knowledgeable in this subject.
I don't think anyone here is condemning them as professionals. I think this is a simple matter of pointing out a careless, thoughtless mistake in the hopes of it not being repeated.
Hey SA,,, on your FB page. those Israeli girls... two of them seem to have some sort of magazine holder that fits in the magwell? Do you know what that is?
Hey SA,,, on your FB page. those Israeli girls... two of them seem to have some sort of magazine holder that fits in the magwell? Do you know what that is?
Saw that too. Looks like it might be this.
http://www.zahal.org/products/magazine-holder-mamach/?a=244099
Here is something similar.
http://www.zahal.org/products/m4-m16mar15-horizontal-mag-holder
http://www.mahal-idf-volunteers.org/information/background/women.jpg
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.