New Guy, New Build (MATEN)

[Itsokbro]

Hello M4c, I'm new to the forums, relatively new to the AR15 platform, and entirely new to the AR10/AR10-style platform.

This might get a little long winded, so I'll include a TL;DR at the bottom :)

Late last year I was thinking of buying an AR15; I'd been interested in semi-auto rifles for some time, but didn't have the knowledge or the experience to differentiate one from another. So, after some time (months) Googling and reading various AR-related forums, I felt I'd learned enough to try and put my own together instead of buying one off the shelf. I wasn't confident enough to try putting the upper together on my first try, so I went with a complete upper, and bought a stripped lower. I ended up building the following:

- Noveske/VLTOR MUR Upper, 14.5" Noveske Afghan Poly Barrel w/ 13.5" NSR, pinned Battlecomp 1.5 & Gunfighter CH Mod 4
- Noveske Gen 1 lower
- DD LPK (kit was ~$99, I was very surprised at how much I liked the trigger)
- VLTOR EMOD stock kit
- Troy Tritium BUIS (M4 style front post)
- TangoDown full-size QD VFG
- Aimpoint PRO
- Larue A-PEG grip and sling
- Other misc Noveske furniture like Keymod/QD sling attachment, pivot/takedown pins, and QD end-plate

I had a blast building that rifle, and I am very happy with how it shoots. I haven't been able to take it out past 100 yards but it's been shooting sub-moa when I've done my part. It definitely shoots FAR better than I do, and will likely continue to do so for some time.

So, after becoming accustomed to the rifle, I started feeling the want of a larger caliber. The Noveske is phenomenal, little to no recoil/muzzle climb, and it's very easy to use, but I started looking at the AR-10 style rifles. I've done a good amount of reading, and come up with a build list that I'm happy to share with you all. Please feel free to critique as you see fit:

- Mega MATEN upper/lower ambi combo /w Maten MKM keymod extended rifle length handguard
- Black Hole Weaponry 18" 308B Match Grade Bull Profile Rifle Length Gas System, .936 Gas Block - 1x11 twist, threaded, no fluting (DPMS)
- SLR Sentry 9 adjustable gas block + SLR rifle length gas tube
- Surefire Muzzle Brake
- Magpul PRS w/ standard A2 buffer tube, Slash Heavy rifle length buffer + spring
- JP .308 lightweight full BCG (JPBC-4A) (DPMS)
- DD LPK

So far that's it. I'll definitely add glass, BUIS and a bipod at some point, but to start I'll probably swap what I have on the 5.56 back and forth; the reasoning behind the Surefire is that I'd like to shoot suppressed in the future. I'll probably swap out the MEGA CH for a Raptor Ambi .308 CH as well. It depends on how much I like the MEGA. Lastly, I'll likely take it to a gunsmith at some point in order to have the bolt headspaced (not sure if I can send BHW the bolt and have them match it to a barrel, or the barrel to JP to match it to a bolt) and the brake and gas block pinned or looked at if I decide to do that myself.

As for what I'm going to use the rifle for, it's mainly just for the learning experience and plinking. I'd love to try and shoot the MATEN out to 1000 yards, but that's probably a pipe dream at this point; well out of my own abilities. I'd be happy shooting it accurately out to 400-500 yards.

There you have it.

TL;DR:
Built an AR15, had fun, love the rifle. Want to build AR-10 style rifle. Build list(s) above - MATEN build list not entirely complete yet (missing glass, buis, bipod). I've also gotten some feedback from TOS about dropping the LPK and buying a nicer trigger. I appreciate any insights you may have :)

[Failure2Stop]

I would concur with getting a better than GI trigger for a gun that is as precision oriented as you are building.
I personally prefer a 16" barrel for 7.62 gas guns.
I find the PRS to be a bit heavy/cumbersome for anything other than static position shooting, preferring the STR.
If the task of the rifle is to be a stationary precision platform I would go ahead and step up to a 20" barrel to mate with the PRS.
I prefer a 1:10 twist for broad ammo compatibility, especially at longer ranges.
I am not a fan of the SF side-ported brakes. They tend to push a lot of dust when close to the ground. I would elect for one of their flash-hiders if you are tied to SF for suppression, or go with a multi-port compensator if follow-up/self spotting is your desire.

[Itsokbro]

Hello Jack,

Thank you very much for your input. My plan is to use the rifle for both hunting and some static position shooting at the range, I'm about 5'7" so I was thinking 20" could be a little much to handle while in the woods, and I'd read that 18" gives you a slight edge in round velocity over a 16". However, based on your recommendation, I will definitely take another look at what's available in 16".

Initially I was aiming at attempting to complete this build <$2500 (not including glass, buis or bipod), which is why I was looking at the GI trigger. I'll look around at what vendors are offering the STR kit for, in addition to any cost savings of going with a 16" as opposed to 18", and a different muzzle device. Maybe changing things up a bit will free up enough in the budget for a nicer trigger.

You've given me a good deal to think about, which I greatly appreciate!

[Plasman]

Please feel free to critique as you see fit:

- SLR Sentry 9 adjustable gas block + SLR rifle length gas tube
- Magpul PRS w/ standard A2 buffer tube, Slash Heavy rifle length buffer + spring


Why spend money on Slash's heavy buffer if you have an adjustable gas block?




and the brake and gas block pinned or looked at if I decide to do that myself.

You don't need to have the brake pinned since the barrel is >16".



My plan is to use the rifle for both hunting...

I agree with Jack that if you want to carry this around you'll probably want to lighten it up. A PRS and bull-barrel aren't going to be too fun to lug around.




Initially I was aiming at attempting to complete this build <$2500 (not including glass, buis or bipod), which is why I was looking at the GI trigger.

The Geissele G2s trigger is pretty good and can usually be found on sale for about $140.




I'll look around at what vendors are offering the STR kit for,

I highly recommend going with an AR-10 pattern buffer setup. Grab a VLTOR A5 7-position receiver extension (the STR will fit on all 7 positions), Armalite AR-10 action spring (part EA1095), and AR-15 carbine buffer. Since you have an adjustable gas block you can probably tune it to the standard (and cheapest) CAR weight buffer. I'm slightly taller than you, and like the extra adjustability the 7 position tube gives me. I swapped out the standard 6 position one on my MWS for the VLTOR and am going to be doing the same on my MK216 when it gets back from PWS.



a different muzzle device.

Check out the PWS FSC30 or Griffin Armament 7.62 Flash Comp. I like (and own) both of those devices.

[archad]

I would take a real hard look at the DPMS GenII 16" recon change out the forend to a MidWestindustries you will save 9oz of weight. I would change out the RE to Vltor A5 7 position use a H3 buffer with the AR10 spring and use the magpul str. You can find a DPMS GII for $1350.

[Itsokbro]

Why spend money on Slash's heavy buffer if you have an adjustable gas block?

It's my understanding that the buffer does both recoil reduction as well as assisting the bolt action - I want an adjustable gas block because I'd like to shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed; from the research I've done it's very helpful to have an adjustable block for this.


You don't need to have the brake pinned since the barrel is >16".

Great, I will keep this in mind. If I don't get it pinned, some blue locktite on the threads will suffice in keeping the muzzle device in place?


I agree with Jack that if you want to carry this around you'll probably want to lighten it up. A PRS and bull-barrel aren't going to be too fun to lug around.

I've been looking at the STR and the VLTOR EMOD stock, I have the EMOD on my ar15 and really like it, so I'm currently determining whether I should spend the money on the STR or buy the buffer setup and swap my EMOD stock over to the 308 to see how I like it first. I think this route makes more sense.


The Geissele G2s trigger is pretty good and can usually be found on sale for about $140.

Thanks, I will definitely keep an eye out for that trigger.


I highly recommend going with an AR-10 pattern buffer setup. Grab a VLTOR A5 7-position receiver extension (the STR will fit on all 7 positions), Armalite AR-10 action spring (part EA1095), and AR-15 carbine buffer. Since you have an adjustable gas block you can probably tune it to the standard (and cheapest) CAR weight buffer. I'm slightly taller than you, and like the extra adjustability the 7 position tube gives me. I swapped out the standard 6 position one on my MWS for the VLTOR and am going to be doing the same on my MK216 when it gets back from PWS.

Based on my response above I think this is what I'll do. :)


Check out the PWS FSC30 or Griffin Armament 7.62 Flash Comp. I like (and own) both of those devices.

I'll look into them, like I said I do want the ability to run suppressed. I guess I could always go with a suppressor that just screws onto the barrel but I'd like to be able to easily put it on and take it off without having to heat up and remove the brake/comp. That's why I was looking at the SF brake. I will look around at what other suppression options are available and figure it out from there. Thank you very much for your suggestions though. I've heard the PWS FSC30 is LOUD!


I would take a real hard look at the DPMS GenII 16" recon change out the forend to a MidWestindustries you will save 9oz of weight. I would change out the RE to Vltor A5 7 position use a H3 buffer with the AR10 spring and use the magpul str. You can find a DPMS GII for $1350.

I'm already sold on the MATEN platform, maybe if I build another I'll look at the DPMS. You and Plasman seem to be in agreement on the STR and the A5 7 position buffer, and it's likely that I will go this route.

Thanks for all of your advice!

[Failure2Stop]

Great, I will keep this in mind. If I don't get it pinned, some blue locktite on the threads will suffice in keeping the muzzle device in place?


Blue loctite is not sufficient for muzzle devices.
Highly recommend Rocksett and the recommended torque value.

[Itsokbro]

Thank you, Jack.

[Plasman]

It's my understanding that the buffer does both recoil reduction as well as assisting the bolt action - I want an adjustable gas block because I'd like to shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed; from the research I've done it's very helpful to have an adjustable block for this.

A heavier buffer is used to compensate for a fixed and over-gassed gas port/flow. If you can control the flow, you can tune it to the buffer you have already to reduce the recoil both suppressed and unsuppressed. If you go the VLTOR A5 receiver extension route, at least heavier buffers are cheaper (can buy multiple H3 buffers for the price of one LR308 heavy buffer)!



I've been looking at the STR and the VLTOR EMOD stock, I have the EMOD on my ar15 and really like it, so I'm currently determining whether I should spend the money on the STR or buy the buffer setup and swap my EMOD stock over to the 308 to see how I like it first. I think this route makes more sense.

Sounds good to try your EMOD first. For me the STR was too wide (I have a wider face), and the EMOD is on the edge of being wide. I like ACS-L stocks.




I'll look into them, like I said I do want the ability to run suppressed. I guess I could always go with a suppressor that just screws onto the barrel but I'd like to be able to easily put it on and take it off without having to heat up and remove the brake/comp. That's why I was looking at the SF brake. I will look around at what other suppression options are available and figure it out from there. Thank you very much for your suggestions though. I've heard the PWS FSC30 is LOUD!

Griffin has a version that accepts their suppressors. I find the "OMG FSC30 is LOUD!" statements to be overblown (shot, and stood next to the FSC30, Griffin, MAMS, BABC, Cooley brake, and A2 all in the same day). Compared to a SF brake it's pretty tame...

[Itsokbro]

I highly recommend going with an AR-10 pattern buffer setup. Grab a VLTOR A5 7-position receiver extension (the STR will fit on all 7 positions), Armalite AR-10 action spring (part EA1095), and AR-15 carbine buffer. Since you have an adjustable gas block you can probably tune it to the standard (and cheapest) CAR weight buffer. I'm slightly taller than you, and like the extra adjustability the 7 position tube gives me.

Plasman, I had a quick question for you on this:

You're recommending I buy:
Buffer: http://www.riflegear.com/p-656-armalite-ar10-carbine-buffer-h3-heavy-buffer.aspx
Spring: http://www.riflegear.com/p-1133-armalite-ar10-rifle-spring.aspx
Tube: http://www.vltorstore.com/products/A5-Receiver-Extension-Tube.html

Correct?

Not:
".308 RIFLE Buffer Spring - ArmaLite #EA1095" seen here: http://www.heavybuffers.com/springs.html
"CAR-10 Buffer Only" seen here: http://heavybuffers.com/ar10carbine.html
Tube: http://www.vltorstore.com/products/A5-Receiver-Extension-Tube.html

Aside from the price, these are both basically the same, correct? With the exception of an additional .2 oz in the Slash buffer?
I'm not entirely sure on what Slash means when he says "Use modified AR10 Spring" in his chart below:

http://heavybuffers.com/images/Buffer%20Table.jpg

Thanks!

[Plasman]

Plasman, I had a quick question for you on this:

You're recommending I buy:
Buffer: http://www.riflegear.com/p-656-armalite-ar10-carbine-buffer-h3-heavy-buffer.aspx
Spring: http://www.riflegear.com/p-1133-armalite-ar10-rifle-spring.aspx
Tube: http://www.vltorstore.com/products/A5-Receiver-Extension-Tube.html

Correct?

Not:
".308 RIFLE Buffer Spring - ArmaLite #EA1095" seen here: http://www.heavybuffers.com/springs.html
"CAR-10 Buffer Only" seen here: http://heavybuffers.com/ar10carbine.html
Tube: http://www.vltorstore.com/products/A5-Receiver-Extension-Tube.html

Aside from the price, these are both basically the same, correct? With the exception of an additional .2 oz in the Slash buffer?
I'm not entirely sure on what Slash means when he says "Use modified AR10 Spring" in his chart below:

Thanks!

Correct. You DO NOT want the CAR-10 buffer from heavy buffers. That buffer is for short LR308 (DPMS) pattern systems which use a standard AR-15 carbine receiver extension. The AR-10 pattern uses a longer receiver extension (VLTOR A5 length) and instead of a shorter buffer, uses regular AR-15 carbine format buffers. If you really wanted a heavy buffer (unnecesary and expensive) in an AR-10 pattern you'd get one from this (http://www.heavybuffers.com/ar15carbine.html) page.

Since the AR-10 spring is meant for the longer receiver extension a "modified" one sold by heavy buffers is one that's been cut down to work in a shorter AR-15 carbine receiver extension.