View Full Version : Update: Independence 5.56 XM193I
Long story short I dropped my rifle on the hardwood floor last night. I figured it's a good excuse to head to the range. The Strikefire was still dead nuts on, but the irons printed slightly right. The Troy fixed front hadn't budged either so I think the MBUS was to blame for a slight shift. The shooting wasn't the interesting part though. This was:
As I was finishing up and I scooped up my brass I saw pronounced ejector markings. I've seen these before, but not this pronounced. This was a lot of Independence 5.56 XM193I. The FC brass seems to gouge much more than LC has in the past. There was even some cratering around the primer strike. Did a thorough cleaning after the session. Softer brass? Any thoughts on the photos below would be appreciated.
Federal:
https://www.anonimg.com/img/b7a4ae251f822cb8635fcd6e23a47c3b.jpg
Lake City:
https://www.anonimg.com/img/c9d3195461fb8ef0c21c7553970de760.jpg
That independence crap is WAY TOO hot. I won't run it. That rear sight is pretty far left, but it is what it is. If it bothers you, I'd get a metal rear sight. The front shouldn't have moved unless the whole handguard shifted.
Plastic sights make me cringe :p
I'm new her but in for a penny. It would strike me that the FF( I assume) hand gaurs has shifted. Easy fix I would have thought, just a question of losening the handgaurd and refitting snug and another range trip. But as long as it does zero and you can flip the rear sight it will work.
Who gives a shit! GH
OP obviously!
I'm not liking the way those cases look, here's sometime I swiped from somewhere, maybe you can link to the article:
[GUNS Magazine, May 2010, “Reloading Puzzles & pieces thereof”, Glen Zediker]
Ejector Marks – A shiny mark on the back of the case head indicates that enough pressure was present to flow the metal of the head into the ejector recess of the bolt face. If these marks appear only on the new cases, and if older cases using the same load show no ejector marks, it is possible that new cases are from a production lot that was annealed to a softer condition. In either case, ejector marks are a definite sign of pressure and the load should be reduced accordingly.
Loose Primer Pockets – This condition is detected by the new primers seating too easily. Cases with loose primer pockets have usually been exposed to hot loads and need to be discarded. Continued use may result in gas leakage around the primers.
Gas Leakage Around the Primer – This is indicated by a black, sooty appearance around the primer and is a sign that the primer seats loosely in the primer pocket. Discard these cases and reduce the load to a lighter charge.
Flattened Primer – Where this condition is accompanied by other signs, it is due to excessive chamber pressure. However, flattened primers can also be an indication that the resizing die was improperly adjusted and has changed the shoulder position of the case. This causes excessive headspace and allows case stretching. The flattening is a result of the case moving forward slightly upon impact from the firing pin. Ignition shoves the primer firmly against the bolt face, and when the pressure from powder ignition reaches its peak, the case head stretches until it contacts the bolt face, telescoping the primer and giving it a flattened appearance.
Heavily Cratered or Extruded Primers – This condition should not be confused with the light cratering that can occur from a poorly fitted or badly worn firing pin. Look to the history of your rifle for correct analysis of this symptom. However, if other pressure indications are present, significant cratering should be regarded as a sign of excessive pressure.
ScatmanCrothers
06-10-14, 21:42
That independence crap is WAY TOO hot. I won't run it.
And so much of it has flown off the shelves over the past year and a half it's unnerving. Variances all over the place with higher end pressures passing up some of my maxed out loads. A resident Bass Pro "expert" told me it's mild M193 so there was nothing to worry about. smdh
That independence crap is WAY TOO hot. I won't run it. That rear sight is pretty far left, but it is what it is. If it bothers you, I'd get a metal rear sight. The front shouldn't have moved unless the whole handguard shifted.
Thanks for the heads up on the Independence. I read as much as possible, watch reviews, etc, but that's the first I've heard of Independence 556 being a hot load. The ejector smear blurring up as it is seems fitting with higher pressures. Good to know.
The hand guard doesn't show any visible signs of shifting. It is locked down very well. The FSP and the RD are locked in as well. Looks like the MBUS is due for replacement.
sinlessorrow
06-10-14, 21:51
I have used a ton of Independence M193, its just IWI M193 and have never seen cases like that. Could be a bad lot.
turnburglar
06-10-14, 22:18
I had a few blown primers out of the few boxes of independence that I had. Won't be purchasing again.
My Mbus requires the same amount of windage on my never been dropped on hardwood, f marked fixed front sight post. Contacted magpul and they said it's fine and run it as is.
Neither am I and thanks for the info. The bright ejector marks are certainly present, and though I am not experienced in reloading it seems that these primers do appear somewhat flattened in comparison to other once fired factory brass.
I'm not liking the way those cases look, here's sometime I swiped from somewhere, maybe you can link to the article:
[GUNS Magazine, May 2010, “Reloading Puzzles & pieces thereof”, Glen Zediker]
Ejector Marks – In either case, ejector marks are a definite sign of pressure and the load should be reduced accordingly.
Flattened Primer – Where this condition is accompanied by other signs, it is due to excessive chamber pressure.
I burned through about 2K of that ammo since last summer and didn't have any issues.
The cases look to me like your rifle is over-gassed. I have a Bushwhacker that produced brass with that same type of ejector smear until I put a heavier buffer in it.
Who makes your barrel?
BCM BHF Midlength Govt profile. BCM BCG. H buffer and blue Tactical Spring CS Spring.
The cases look to me like your rifle is over-gassed. I have a Bushwhacker that produced brass with that same type of ejector smear until I put a heavier buffer in it.
Interesting. I chrono'd that stuff out of a 20 inch Colt and was getting WELL over 3300 fps. After 5 rounds and 5 pretty swipey case heads, I pulled the other 15 rounds down and used the components for making sane ammo.
I don't think this crap will blow a gun to bits as long as they have consistent powder charges, but it's right up against the red line and not worth the wear on the gun. Slinging a 55 gr FMJ that hard is like slamming your head against the wall.
Interesting. I chrono'd that stuff out of a 20 inch Colt and was getting WELL over 3300 fps. After 5 rounds and 5 pretty swipey case heads...
I'm backing down on firing the rest of this. I have maybe 100 rounds left. Not worth it.
Purchased last Nov through PSA. Curious if others have fired the same lot and checked out their brass...which doesn't look so hot even before firing.
https://www.anonimg.com/img/42afe473070c064ba09ba90650b24b93.jpg
Interesting. I chrono'd that stuff out of a 20 inch Colt and was getting WELL over 3300 fps. After 5 rounds and 5 pretty swipey case heads, I pulled the other 15 rounds down and used the components for making sane ammo.
I don't think this crap will blow a gun to bits as long as they have consistent powder charges, but it's right up against the red line and not worth the wear on the gun. Slinging a 55 gr FMJ that hard is like slamming your head against the wall.
Since his barrel is a BCM and is not likely to be over gassed I'll try and score a box and chrono it out of my BCM 16" midlength. I will also try it out of my 20". I rarely shoot factory ammo anymore, but this sounds like a good excuse to try this stuff. It's looking like there are multiple reasons for ejector smearing.
Yep. That's what I did. I saw it being discussed here and grabbed a box from Cabelas to try out.
Contacted Federal Cartridge this AM. I asked if they had received other complaints on this ammo, which the service rep didn't really answer, but he almost immediately said they want all the rounds I have left. Prepaid label was established with UPS and they are picking up the remaining rounds this Friday for testing. I was told I would receive a call once testing is complete.
We just had a gun come in that was blown up (and he was using this ammo). I am going to check the lot# and see what it is. I would possibly reach out to Federal as we will do as well.
We just had a gun come in that was blown up (and he was using this ammo).
I have a can of ammo for you if you ever make an appearance again.
We just had a gun come in that was blown up (and he was using this ammo). I am going to check the lot# and see what it is. I would possibly reach out to Federal as we will do as well.
Wow! Thankful I posted the pics of the case heads now. Really appreciate the input from you all. I might not have put the brakes on if I didn't get your feedback. Gunz- Federal was contacted yesterday morning. They are taking all my remaining rounds for testing. Would you feel comfortable posting some images or describing how the rifle failed?
sinlessorrow
06-12-14, 11:47
I wonder what happened to this ammo, used to be good quality.
I wonder what happened to this ammo, used to be good quality.
Well when you run a load that close to the red line... there's a thin margin for error before disaster occurs.
Although I haven't fired any of the Indepence, I have bought about 800 rounds of this stuff here and there over the past few weeks as available to replenish my supply of ammo and build up my stash. I sent an e-mail to Federal this morning for any comment but have no real hope of a response since I haven't personally had any issues with it.
So, what the hell do I do with this stuff?
ScatmanCrothers
06-12-14, 14:49
I wonder what happened to this ammo, used to be good quality.
I'm wondering how its so different from IMI branded M193. I know the story behind the stuff but these are like "the new guy's" mistakes, like IMI is having to re-learn how to ride a bike after years and years of quality manufacturing experience. I personally got over 3350 once in a 50 round sample and there are some reports of exceeding 3600 floating around which is nuts if true. Something doesn't add up.
So, what the hell do I do with this stuff?
You give it to you old buddy, markm so he can pull it apart and make good ammo out of the components. ;)
Spoke with a tech at Federal today named Ryan re: the xm193I that I sent to FC for testing. He said the test results did show the ammo was over pressure. I wasn't surprised, but I also didn't expect him to divulge much more information than that due to possible liability issues. He is sending me standard xm193 as a replacement for the xm193I.
I've got about 200 rounds of this stuff that I also got from PSA some months back. I haven't fired any of it but I think I'll keep an eye on this thread.
sinlessorrow
07-01-14, 16:59
I've got about 200 rounds of this stuff that I also got from PSA some months back. I haven't fired any of it but I think I'll keep an eye on this thread.
All of it I have shot has been near identical to M193, probably just a bad lot or two got out. It happens from time to time.
After what I saw and read on this thread it didn't take me long to contact Federal. With experienced members commenting on the ammo's hotness and IG having a kaboom brought to him by someone shooting this ammo...well that's more than enough to turn me off. Now their and my concerns are confirmed by the actual importer, Federal themselves. The choice is obviously up to you whether you keep the ammo, send it back, or tear it apart for your own loads, but be careful. Its just not worth blowing your face off man.
black22rifle
07-01-14, 17:32
Did they give you a lot number? iraqgunz has also said he has blown about two whole cases of it with no problem. I got a half a case sitting ready for a class in a few weeks.
Lot number is in the pic on the first page of the thread. I have no doubt many, many rounds of this stuff have been fired without issue. I fired a few myself, and I have other Federal ammo that I fully intend to fire. I'm only sharing my findings and what I was told by Federal. You make your own decisions from there.
The lots I avoid say "INDEPENDENCE" on the box. :sarcastic:
For me, Federal-Independence XM193i consistently demonstrated high pressure signs and dropped primers at a rate of about 10%. I had several thousand rounds from the same lot. I saw pressure signs in other lots from a variety of guns during live fire and examination of recovered brass.
For an economy training option from Federal, get the AE .223.
Dammit, I bought some of this stuff...errr, make that a lot of this stuff. It was actually offered to me by Brownells in place of Federal XM193 that I had on backorder forever, and I took the 'deal'. It was just for stockpiling since I mainly shoot my reloads, so I never shot any of it.
3ACR_Scout
07-01-14, 20:53
Thanks for sharing all this info. I fired 100 rounds of Independence last year that I bought during the panic and didn't experience any issues, but I didn't look at the spent brass either. These reports are interesting because this seems to be the one type of 5.56 that's universally available in stores in NoVA, including two gun shops, Walmart, and I think the Belvoir PX. I usually buy regular Federal XM193 though, because the local stores charge $11-$14 per 20 rd box of Independence. I appreciate the follow-up info from Federal.
Dave
Would you identify the lot number please? It might save a few of us some heartburn.
Will be a day or two until I get back to it, but sure.
I have at least 500 rounds of batch #FC13J001-075. I emailed Federal and called and left my number, we will say what they do.
I'll never understand why these imbeciles just don't download this ammo like Q3131a1. There's no need, requirement, or VALUE in slinging the junky old 55 gr FMJBT W/C that hard.
That sums up my thoughts as well. I really don't see a downside to that concept. It should make the ammo slightly cheaper to manufacture, prevent safety issues, provide some cushion in the case of a mis-load, save some wear on the weapon and provide a slightly less expensive product.
Federal needs to rethink this one.
3200 fps out of a 20" is more than adequate.
Agreed. I used to load to 3150, and that was a nice stout round with cushion for warm weather pressure spikes.
well damn, I stock piled this stuff over the last year. I've got 5000rds of it..... haven't had any issues with it yet but it definitely is fairly hot, but it honestly shoots identical to the American Eagle 120rd Mini-Ammo can XM193 stuff. I have zero POA/POI between those 2 ammo choices.
If you can chrono some of it and it's not higher than 3300 fps and you're not popping primers you might just be ok. I think some of guys here said theirs worked fine. Could be a lot to lot problem.
Well the tech from Federal called me back and ran my lot#. He stated that they have had no reported issues with Lot# FC13J001-075. So if I was really concerned I could ship a box UPS to them on my dime and they would test it. If it was ok they would ship me a replacement box, if it was "Hot" they would pay to have my ammo returned and replace it. He suggested that I shoot it and see if I have any issues.
Ended up having a local guy buy all of it, said he wasn't concerned about the issues. Got $1600 for 4,000 rounds. Replaced it with stuff from Freedom Munitions because it shoots great and is ALOT less than even my dealer cost on replacing it with regular XM193......
JBecker 72
07-04-14, 08:49
Damn, I have about 600 rounds of this stuff. I'll have to check my lot numbers. I was under the impression this was good stuff.
I'll never understand why these imbeciles just don't download this ammo like Q3131a1. There's no need, requirement, or VALUE in slinging the junky old 55 gr FMJBT W/C that hard.
How fast is the Q3131A1? I have some Q3131A that was loaded in Israel and it chronographs at 3240fps out of a 20" barrel.
I have lot #089 but have not fired any of it yet. Anyone else try some from that lot #?
I have lot #089 but have not fired any of it yet. Anyone else try some from that lot #?
Their 800 number to talk to a tech is...1-800-379-1732, tell the operator that you are dealing with "Independence" ammo as they handle several brands. The tech can run your Lot# to check for issues. It might take two phone calls as it did me to get to someone.
Thanks for sharing all this info. I fired 100 rounds of Independence last year that I bought during the panic and didn't experience any issues, but I didn't look at the spent brass either. These reports are interesting because this seems to be the one type of 5.56 that's universally available in stores in NoVA, including two gun shops, Walmart, and I think the Belvoir PX. I usually buy regular Federal XM193 though, because the local stores charge $11-$14 per 20 rd box of Independence. I appreciate the follow-up info from Federal.
Dave
I bought 100 rounds from the Eustis PX that ran without issue. I don't know if it was regular 193 or the 193I some people have mentioned though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How fast is the Q3131A1? I have some Q3131A that was loaded in Israel and it chronographs at 3240fps out of a 20" barrel.
Q3131a1 runs about 3150. It has extruded powder instead of ball. The one bad thing about it is those Koreans can't get the bullet in there straight at all. All of the ammo has Black Hills levels of runout in the projectile. .007-.010".
Since it's 55 gr FMJ the runout doesn't really hurt the so-so accuracy you'd get anyway.... just odd.
Oh, sure... now that I just bought a pile of this stuff..... FML.:alcoholic:
So, what about their handgun ammo then?
Just checked the Indpendence ammo I have in the safe; Same lot as in the first picture and 940 rounds of it :eek:. Guess I will be giving Federal a call tomorrow morning.
Thanks for the heads up on this!
That independence crap is WAY TOO hot. I won't run it. That rear sight is pretty far left, but it is what it is. If it bothers you, I'd get a metal rear sight. The front shouldn't have moved unless the whole handguard shifted.
From 26 INF
Ejector Marks – A shiny mark on the back of the case head indicates that enough pressure was present to flow the metal of the head into the ejector recess of the bolt face. If these marks appear only on the new cases, and if older cases using the same load show no ejector marks, it is possible that new cases are from a production lot that was annealed to a softer condition. In either case, ejector marks are a definite sign of pressure and the load should be reduced accordingly.
Yep, bought a case of it a while back along with some Federal xm193 and compared to everything else I was shooting they felt like magnum loads.
davestarbuck
07-07-14, 21:17
I had a buddy shoot a bunch of this crap through old BCM carbine upper that's used with my Slidefire. Popped primers left and right. Since it was his birthday, I gave him a few mags of my reloads that are more warm than hot. No issues with multiple mags of that, regular XM193, and Wolf 75 gr. We have sequestered the Independence stuff for later pull down once I'm back in my house (had a fire a month ago). I think I'll average the charge weights and knock off a few grains and go from there.
Q3131a1 runs about 3150. It has extruded powder instead of ball. The one bad thing about it is those Koreans can't get the bullet in there straight at all. All of the ammo has Black Hills levels of runout in the projectile. .007-.010".
Since it's 55 gr FMJ the runout doesn't really hurt the so-so accuracy you'd get anyway.... just odd.
If you measured 3150 fps out of a 16" barrel, that is definitely hot. Winchester Q3131A measured 2964 fps out of my 16" carbine.
The information in this thread is useful and I will share it with people in my area.
Would you identify the lot number please? It might save a few of us some heartburn.
Here's some info for you.
Please do note that these are the Independence branded, commercially packaged ammunition sold under the XM193i sku. These do not apply to other XM193 sku-ed products.
Lot# FC13F001-059
High pressure signs and dropped primers at a rate of about 10%. Guns included known-good BCM SBR (11.5") and a Colt 6520 (16") with unblemished performance records.
~3350fps average velocity, 20" 5.56 barrel, 1/7, GI type
~3525fps average velocity, 24" .223 barrel, 1/12, varmint type
Lot# FC13C001-039
High pressure signs, no dropped primers. No chrono data.
Here's some info for you.
Please do note that these are the Independence branded, commercially packaged ammunition sold under the XM193i sku. These do not apply to other XM193 sku-ed products.
Lot# FC13F001-059
High pressure signs and dropped primers at a rate of about 10%. Guns included known-good BCM SBR (11.5") and a Colt 6520 (16") with unblemished performance records.
~3350fps average velocity, 20" 5.56 barrel, 1/7, GI type
~3525fps average velocity, 24" .223 barrel, 1/12, varmint type
Lot# FC13C001-039
High pressure signs, no dropped primers. No chrono data.
Thank you sir. This is very helpful.
Wow! I'd love to see that 24" velocity shot into Gel! :sarcastic:
sinlessorrow
07-08-14, 13:09
Lot: FC13E001-053 is fine.
All of my ammunition is that lot and shows no overpressure signs.
Got a call back from Federal/Independence today. Talked with one of their "tech" guys and he told me they have no records of lot FC13J001-074 ever being sent back to them, tested or replaced and that they have had zero issues with any ammo produced in that time frame (November 2013). He also said ejector markings on the back of the casing has nothing to do with the ammo being over pressured. He seemed to be in disbelief as to what I had to say about reading it on a forum and the fact that I haven't shot any of this lot yet. Thoughts?
.46caliber
07-08-14, 19:08
Got a call back from Federal/Independence today. Talked with one of their "tech" guys and he told me they have no records of lot FC13J001-074 ever being sent back to them, tested or replaced and that they have had zero issues with any ammo produced in that time frame (November 2013). He also said ejector markings on the back of the casing has nothing to do with the ammo being over pressured. He seemed to be in disbelief as to what I had to say about reading it on a forum and the fact that I haven't shot any of this lot yet. Thoughts?
There's a lot of BS across forums and he wouldn't know what to make of it. Photos of what the exact type of ejector mark would probably help. Also, get to a chrono if you can and record some velocity numbers.
Without something more to go on, I understand him not offering to ship ammo around on their dime.
All that said, since one of the other posts had already shared that info I'm surprised that he wasn't able to see it. Maybe the paperwork hasn't processed out of testing and into tech hands? Maybe ask the poster who tested that lot for a case # or something you can reference.
I have a few boxes from a different lot and I will chrono them before I call Federal.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
There's a lot of BS across forums and he wouldn't know what to make of it. Photos of what the exact type of ejector mark would probably help. Also, get to a chrono if you can and record some velocity numbers.
Without something more to go on, I understand him not offering to ship ammo around on their dime.
All that said, since one of the other posts had already shared that info I'm surprised that he wasn't able to see it. Maybe the paperwork hasn't processed out of testing and into tech hands? Maybe ask the poster who tested that lot for a case # or something you can reference.
I have a few boxes from a different lot and I will chrono them before I call Federal.
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Ya I totally understand his skepticism but I was surprised how adamant he was about having 0 issues with any ammo produced in the time frame of the specific lot # I gave him.
I will shoot some of it and go from there. He did say that if I have any issues shooting it they will definitely take care of it and swap it out.
I forwarded them this thread so they could read for themselves issues people have encountered with certain lot numbers.
reminds me of the old q313 from the 90's,one lot would get 3250 from a 20" then another lot would produce 3350+fps
NoEffects6
07-16-14, 19:24
Great thread.
I have shot this Lot# with out any problems.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/NoEffects6/Idependence556_zps497b4a24.png (http://s161.photobucket.com/user/NoEffects6/media/Idependence556_zps497b4a24.png.html)
I do have a half case of Independence at my fathers house and will grab a few boxes to test next time I visit him. I'm unsure of the lot number on that case.
Those of you who are shooting this ammo without any problems: Are you closely examining your spent brass, or basing it on the gun running properly?
Ned Christiansen
07-16-14, 21:01
There is no 3525FPS out of a 24" barrel without the chamber being .223, (well, that's my opinion anyway). Which it looks like that's what is indicated That gun is running at maybe 75000 PSI to make that speed, so no wonder if there are problems...... note that right on the Independence box it says don't do that.
Had a department armorer getting up to 3400 FPS out of a fleet of 16" barreled carbines-- and lots of popped primers. No need to ask what chamber they all had! Dang, who wants a big ol' .22-250 bolt gun with a 26" barrel when you can just shoot NATO-spec ammo in an AR carbine with a .223 chamber :-) ? On the other hand though, who wants a proof load going off every time you pull the trigger....?
NoEffects6
07-16-14, 23:29
Those of you who are shooting this ammo without any problems: Are you closely examining your spent brass, or basing it on the gun running properly?
Sorry about that I should have clarified. My experience was based on the gun running properly. I have fired 100 rounds of it with a Colt 6920 (at the time this colt only had 300 rds through it). Every round cycled fine with zero dropped primers. I did not chrono them as I do not own a chronograph. I did look at 5 pieces of brass today after reading this thread. I had to dig them out from a big bag of mixed brass. Every spent casing looked normal.
Then after reading your post I went back and dug for a few more..I found this guy. Its a crap cell phone picture but you can get the gist of it.
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t226/NoEffects6/Idependence556-2_zps03f49c97.png (http://s161.photobucket.com/user/NoEffects6/media/Idependence556-2_zps03f49c97.png.html)
Not only gouged, yet there is a brass splinter sticking off of it. Most of the brass I have inspected did not look like the OP's picture. Yet the one above certainly isn't normal.
I never doubted this ammo was hot. I just want to make sure its safe. As I posted earlier I'm sitting on half a case of this.
This stuff will cut a carbean's bolt life in half I bet. :no:
.46caliber
10-04-14, 11:12
Bump with more data. 16" Sig Sauer 1/7.
Lot# FC12K001-001
8 rounds
Hi - 3056
Lo - 3002
Avg. - 3033
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Unfortunately I don't have any hard chrono data, and I did not have time to inspect my brass for high pressure marks (previous ammo I tested was about 50/50 showing marks out of 20-30 rds.) , but...
I put 700 rounds of this stuff through a PSA 16" carbine during a recent class.
It functioned fine and did not KB (yet- still have a few hundred rounds left... :fie:)
The lots were
FC13G001-066 (40 rds.)
FC13L001-088 (660 rds.)
I pulled one round out of the -088 series that had a bullet not seated correctly- the bullet was sticking out of the neck beyond the cannelure. .
Probably not the most helpful info, but just so it's known.
I chrono'd some the other day at 32xx fps from a 16" barrel. 27xx from a 10".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dw73p2To8&feature=youtu.be
That's the hottest 5.56 I've ever tested. I pulled one down, 26.2gr of powder. Other M193 have varied charges between 26-27gr (obviously no way of knowing what powder is in use)
Lots I have:
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0210_zps22e82f9a.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0210_zps22e82f9a.jpg.html)
M85 PAP brass on left, Stag Arms Model 1L on the right. Here's some MKE M855, PPU M193, LC M193, Win Q3131, and the FC marked Independence
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0211_zpsbcc4830f.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0211_zpsbcc4830f.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0212_zps251fdd7f.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0212_zps251fdd7f.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0213_zpsf5619b8c.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0213_zpsf5619b8c.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0214_zps51bd0c10.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0214_zps51bd0c10.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0215_zpsbf13ef38.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0215_zpsbf13ef38.jpg.html)
I see a very faint ejector mark on the AR spent brass, nothing like the OP. Is 32XX too hot from a 16" barrel?
sinlessorrow
12-31-14, 23:28
I chrono'd some the other day at 32xx fps from a 16" barrel. 27xx from a 10".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dw73p2To8&feature=youtu.be
That's the hottest 5.56 I've ever tested. I pulled one down, 26.2gr of powder. Other M193 have varied charges between 26-27gr (obviously no way of knowing what powder is in use)
Lots I have:
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0210_zps22e82f9a.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0210_zps22e82f9a.jpg.html)
M85 PAP brass on left, Stag Arms Model 1L on the right. Here's some MKE M855, PPU M193, LC M193, Win Q3131, and the FC marked Independence
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0211_zpsbcc4830f.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0211_zpsbcc4830f.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0212_zps251fdd7f.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0212_zps251fdd7f.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0213_zpsf5619b8c.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0213_zpsf5619b8c.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0214_zps51bd0c10.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0214_zps51bd0c10.jpg.html)
http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o591/Svlwrx/IMG_0215_zpsbf13ef38.jpg (http://s1149.photobucket.com/user/Svlwrx/media/IMG_0215_zpsbf13ef38.jpg.html)
I see a very faint ejector mark on the AR spent brass, nothing like the OP. Is 32XX too hot from a 16" barrel?
I have seen anywhere from 3050-3200 from a 16" rifle. The marks on the brass look fine though.
I got 500+ rounds of this stuff from a Member here that had, what appeared to be, shipping damage. So I pulled it all down and resized it and re necked it to get it straight and remove most of the dents.
When I reloaded the stuff, I dropped the charge 1.5 grains, but am still seeing light case head swipes. And taking the charge down that much made for a pretty mild load. In other words, this brass seems to have that typical FC soft case head weakness to it.
mastiffhound
01-02-15, 16:50
I got 500+ rounds of this stuff from a Member here that had, what appeared to be, shipping damage. So I pulled it all down and resized it and re necked it to get it straight and remove most of the dents.
When I reloaded the stuff, I dropped the charge 1.5 grains, but am still seeing light case head swipes. And taking the charge down that much made for a pretty mild load. In other words, this brass seems to have that typical FC soft case head weakness to it.
So it's loaded extra hot in too soft brass? Yep, sounds perfectly safe to me!
sinlessorrow
01-02-15, 17:26
So it's loaded extra hot in too soft brass? Yep, sounds perfectly safe to me!
From what Mark wrote downloading the powder a tiny bit made it a mild load, so no where near hot. Sounds like mildly soft brass. When i hit the range in a week or two ill be sure to grab up some brass to show.
So it's loaded extra hot in too soft brass? Yep, sounds perfectly safe to me!
Yeah! I mean... I loaded it down to where I got 3 or more failures to lock back, and was still seeing small ejector swipes.
sinlessorrow
01-02-15, 19:08
Yeah! I mean... I loaded it down to where I got 3 or more failures to lock back, and was still seeing small ejector swipes.
What was causing it to fail locking to the rear?
.46caliber
01-02-15, 23:31
What was causing it to fail locking to the rear?
Markm pulled down and reloaded the cartridges. He backed off the powder charge to the point where the gas wouldn't lock the BCG back.
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sinlessorrow
01-02-15, 23:34
Markm pulled down and reloaded the cartridges. He backed off the powder charge to the point where the gas wouldn't lock the BCG back.
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Wanted to make sure, so he undercharged the rounds and still had brass damage. Sounds like the LC brass is a bit soft.
the swipes are the same thing i have seen on federal AE 223 spec ammo,which is a mild load compared to m193 spec ammo.
typical federal soft brass
.46caliber
01-03-15, 09:56
Wanted to make sure, so he undercharged the rounds and still had brass damage. Sounds like the LC brass is a bit soft.
That's my understanding. The Independence isn't loaded on LC brass though, it uses FC brass. There are some hot Independence lots that are too high pressure, but the brass is generally soft throughout.
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Wanted to make sure, so he undercharged the rounds and still had brass damage. Sounds like the LC brass is a bit soft.
It's not LC brass. It's FC brass with different headstamps than you find on AE223.
ALL of my FC 223 brass had loose primer pockets after only 2 firings. I still have some from the panic that I got from Freedom Munitions, but these days I try to avoid it as it is notoriously soft. I mainly load it for those times I can't pick up brass.
FC pistol brass seems to be GTG though.
sinlessorrow
01-03-15, 12:03
It's not LC brass. It's FC brass with different headstamps than you find on AE223.
I meant FC, which is a generally softer brass brand compared to other brass cases. You can see a bit of ejector bit from the case rim of the FC brass just by chambering and ejecting the round.
It is amazing what one can learn reading through these threads.
Thanks, gang.
sinlessorrow
01-25-15, 15:44
Thanks for bumping.
No chrono but ran some more rounds through my M4A1 clone and no over pressure signs. Ejector smear and swipe was barely noticeable and only minutely worse than PMC M193.
texasgunhand
01-25-15, 17:40
Interesting. I chrono'd that stuff out of a 20 inch Colt and was getting WELL over 3300 fps. After 5 rounds and 5 pretty swipey case heads, I pulled the other 15 rounds down and used the components for making sane ammo.
I don't think this crap will blow a gun to bits as long as they have consistent powder charges, but it's right up against the red line and not worth the wear on the gun. Slinging a 55 gr FMJ that hard is like slamming your head against the wall.
Wasnt there a post on here a while back were it did do damage or even blow up a gun? Iam pretty sure becouse after reading it i never bought any even during the crunch when it was available at my local wallmart. I just waited.
.46caliber
01-25-15, 17:49
Wasnt there a post on here a while back were it did do damage or even blow up a gun? Iam pretty sure becouse after reading it i never bought any even during the crunch when it was available at my local wallmart. I just waited.
I vaguely remember something along those lines. My lot checked out so I finished what I had and the brass is weak for reloading so I'm not picking up any more. One of those hot lots in a barrel that has less than a true 5.56 could be a disaster.
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sinlessorrow
01-25-15, 17:57
I vaguely remember something along those lines. My lot checked out so I finished what I had and the brass is weak for reloading so I'm not picking up any more. One of those hot lots in a barrel that has less than a true 5.56 could be a disaster.
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Yep. My biggest issue with this stuff is the brass. Some of the softest brass I have ever seen.
.46caliber
01-25-15, 18:55
Yep. My biggest issue with this stuff is the brass. Some of the softest brass I have ever seen.
Every last piece my father and I have shot of this stuff has swipes on the head. Every piece.
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JBecker 72
01-25-15, 19:00
Thanks for bumping.
No chrono but ran some more rounds through my M4A1 clone and no over pressure signs. Ejector smear and swipe was barely noticeable and only minutely worse than PMC M193.
Same here. I've run almost 1000 rounds of it at this point and have had the exact same observations.
250 rounds left.
Wasnt there a post on here a while back were it did do damage or even blow up a gun? Iam pretty sure becouse after reading it i never bought any even during the crunch when it was available at my local wallmart. I just waited.
There's been a few guns that bit the dust. The threads could have been duplicate posts from other forums.
Every last piece my father and I have shot of this stuff has swipes on the head. Every piece.
Same here. Even when I downloaded the ammo 1.5 grains or whatever... it still showed some swipes. Thin webbed brass, crazy hot load.... No bueno.
platoonDaddy
01-26-15, 01:36
Is this issue also occurring out of 20" barrels?
.46caliber
01-26-15, 06:44
Is this issue also occurring out of 20" barrels?
Maybe I don't understand your question.
Overcharged is overcharged whether it's 16 or 20. The velocity numbers are just bigger on the 20 like they always are.
Or are you asking if swipe marks are still seen on 20 bbls? Markm was seeing marks out of his 20 and I believe others reported same.
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Maybe I don't understand your question.
Overcharged is overcharged whether it's 16 or 20. The velocity numbers are just bigger on the 20 like they always are.
Or are you asking if swipe marks are still seen on 20 bbls? Markm was seeing marks out of his 20 and I believe others reported same.
Yep. 20 inch is what I chrono everything with for comparability. The swipes and high velocity were why I stopped shooting the ammo after 5 rounds.
platoonDaddy
01-26-15, 14:24
Or are you asking if swipe marks are still seen on 20 bbls? Markm was seeing marks out of his 20 and I believe others reported same.
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Yes, that was my question. Both you and markm have answered it.
Last weekend I was shooting that Independence 55gr ammo out of my BCM and I had a primer blow and the case got stuck in the chamber. I will not be buying it again. Downside is that I got an ammo can with a mix variety of 55gr ball, and there is Independence cartridges mixed in there as well.
.46caliber
01-29-15, 06:50
Last weekend I was shooting that Independence 55gr ammo out of my BCM and I had a primer blow and the case got stuck in the chamber. I will not be buying it again. Downside is that I got an ammo can with a mix variety of 55gr ball, and there is Independence cartridges mixed in there as well.
It has an FC head stamp. Should be easy to pick out.
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It has an FC head stamp. Should be easy to pick out.
Yeah. The Indy headstamps aren't hard to spot.
It has an FC head stamp. Should be easy to pick out.
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Thanks. Did not know and will keep that in mind.
kart racer
02-08-15, 22:32
chronoed some indy today out of a stag.3276,3267,3308,3276..no real pressure signs other than some splinters on the rim..accuracy at 60 meters with a cheap 2x7 leupold was 1/2-3/4 groups...I'm leary,but recoil,brass etc,isn't showing any real scary signs...just wonder if the chrono is right...16 inch m4 wannbe,bad thing is i got 1k of this stuff.lc green tip was 2961,2943,2772,2886...mast reloads,62 gr were 2849,2824,2830,2834...
.46caliber
02-09-15, 17:31
chronoed some indy today out of a stag.3276,3267,3308,3276..no real pressure signs other than some splinters on the rim..accuracy at 60 meters with a cheap 2x7 leupold was 1/2-3/4 groups...I'm leary,but recoil,brass etc,isn't showing any real scary signs...just wonder if the chrono is right...16 inch m4 wannbe,bad thing is i got 1k of this stuff.lc green tip was 2961,2943,2772,2886...mast reloads,62 gr were 2849,2824,2830,2834...
What is the lot#? That is for sure a hot one.
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kart racer
02-09-15, 19:41
Lot fc13l001-089...2013 headstamp
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