View Full Version : Disappointed by HST
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/12/u8u9aga7.jpg Rounds 6-14 loaded into into my duty weapon. 21 years of service and never had this with premium ammo that I loaded my duty weapon with. I emailed Federal 12 days ago with no response. Even used my work email. .40 s&w 180 grain. Lot # Q11 M088 Please beware. I may have ended up with a crap box. Before anyone says "they'll be fine..." if the brass is this thin, will it cause a malfunction....
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1730,
Was that dept issued? And if so did any other officers have the same issue? Definitely not a confidence builder.
jpgm
Looking for a little clarification...
The way I read it is they were fine out of the box but loading them into you magazine caused that? Or something else?
No. Since I just transitioned to a striker fire weapon I had to supply my own this year. Glad I bought a variety. My department issues Ranger bonded and you get new rounds after yearly quals.
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Looking for a little clarification...
The way I read it is they were fine out of the box but loading them into you magazine caused that? Or something else?
Loading them into the mag. Those dents were caused by the base of the new round being loaded.
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Loading them into the mag. Those dents were caused by the base of the new round being loaded.
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I have seen the same thing, but it took several months of unloading magazines on days off, then reloading them on duty days before I noticed the dents. I believe it is caused while loading the last few rounds in the magazines when the spring pressure is the greatest.
I have also seen this issue with other brands of ammunition. All of the rounds fired fine during qualifications without any noticeable difference in report or reliability issues.
I have seen the same thing, but it took several months of unloading magazines on days off, then reloading them on duty days before I noticed the dents. I believe it is caused while loading the last few rounds in the magazines when the spring pressure is the greatest.
I have also seen this issue with other brands of ammunition. All of the rounds fired fine during qualifications without any noticeable difference in report or reliability issues.
MSgt, this was the initial loadout. As I said, never had it happen and should not have happened, starting at round number seven.
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OP- Check your PM.
I did and thank you sir!
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Wreckingball911
06-11-14, 23:36
Had the same thing happen with gold dots in my g23. Only loaded once.
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Had the same thing happen with gold dots in my g23. Only loaded once.
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Like I stated I never had a problem with premium duty ammo before in jhp.
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Like I stated I never had a problem with premium duty ammo before in jhp.
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So none of the rounds worked when you fired them?
Not sure I want to take a chance in a real life situation. When I get to the range some time next week I will use them. After I corresponded with a mgr at atk and thr answer I received, I am not buying any of their products ever again.
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Not sure I want to take a chance in a real life situation. When I get to the range some time next week I will use them. After I corresponded with a mgr at atk and thr answer I received, I am not buying any of their products ever again.
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I'm going to be honest with you, this is like complaining at a scratch or ding on your firearm and being worried it will no longer function.
Brass expands when it is fired....
I understand that. It's in 21 years of loading and shooting pistols I never dented a casing just by the action of loading the damn thing. At over a dollar a round I expect that to not be the case.
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I understand that. It's in 21 years of loading and shooting pistols I never dented a casing just by the action of loading the damn thing. At over a dollar a round I expect that to not be the case.
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Valid point. It may be the nature of loading the magazines of your current service pistol.
Could be but I did experiment using that magazine and four other manufacturers rounds. Loaded 15 and guess what, no dents. I was using more force then I normally do to load a mag. I use xm193 in my duty rifle. I wanted to like this round. I really did.
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I can understand your concern about the dents in the brass, but I have fired a lot of the same cartridges in the same condition without any problems.
If the round performs well when the projectile strikes the threat that would be my primary concern. It would still be worth your time to contact ATK Corporation and share your concerns with them.
I did. That was interesting. I will share but only by pm.
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I have a bunch of P40HST1 rotating out, some of which is 11-12 production. I'll see what it takes to duplicate the problem.
Voodoo_Man
06-13-14, 16:14
We had a bad batch of .45 hst, swapped it out, good to go.
I have a bunch of P40HST1 rotating out, some of which is 11-12 production. I'll see what it takes to duplicate the problem.
03/2014 was this lot.
I have a bunch of P40HST1 rotating out, some of which is 11-12 production. I'll see what it takes to duplicate the problem.
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PatrioticDisorder
06-23-14, 21:46
None of my HST 180gr purchased in early fall 2012 do that, I have several loaded in M&P mags from the Shield, compact and full size, no dents or anything remotely like that. That is very odd I must say.
So ATK pretty much just said oh well ?? About the issues I'd love to hear what it was they wrote .. Feel free to pm me.. All my HST's over the years have never done that.. Bad batch of brass ???
Never shot HST, but have never seen this from Gold Dot or Ranger. Used both in 1911, Glock 19, P226 357SIG, S&W M&P9, etc.
Either you are loading your magazines incorrectly and retardmuscling them full, or that brass is soft. I'm pretty sure I'm safe to say the latter.
Never shot HST, but have never seen this from Gold Dot or Ranger. Used both in 1911, Glock 19, P226 357SIG, S&W M&P9, etc.
Either you are loading your magazines incorrectly and retardmuscling them full, or that brass is soft. I'm pretty sure I'm safe to say the latter.
Never took the short bus to school so....I am now only carrying GD or PDX1.
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Never took the short bus to school so....I am now only carrying GD or PDX1.
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Everyone can run a bad batch from time to time. Maybe re-visit HST in 6 months when all of that is out of the system?
Everyone can run a bad batch from time to time. Maybe re-visit HST in 6 months when all of that is out of the system?
True. But I did not like their response when I emailed them direct with my concern. Not at all.
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Same thing haooened with HST in my daily carry P229 .40. We determined it was from the groves in the top of the sig mags. My top few were pretty bad.
Mike
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My Winchester bonded (overrun stuff in the white box, but its the pdx-1 design), does that, but nearly as bad as yours looks. When loading, do you push the top round down with your thumb, or the next round you're putting in?
My Winchester bonded (overrun stuff in the white box, but its the pdx-1 design), does that, but nearly as bad as yours looks. When loading, do you push the top round down with your thumb, or the next round you're putting in?
Thumb then seat the round.
A friend of mine experienced a similar issue with the 180 gr HST in a FNP .40. Indentation seemed to be caused by the geometry of the magazine itself, specifically the shape of the sidewalls of the magazine for the top few rounds. It would occur in all mags he had for the FNP. The same didn't occur with Ranger T, Gold Dot, or various practice ammo. Some of the HST became grooved fairly significantly, though it didn't seem to have any effect on function. I haven't seen it in any HST I've used in 9mm Glocks.
Odd. I've never seen this in either caliber of HST I carry (.40 and .45), or any of my other defense ammo I've used. HST has been my go to round since doing some water expansion tests with it, and seeing just how massively it expands. Sorry to hear so many people on here have had weird issues with it.
I really wanted to be a fan of this product. Had the response from Federal been more positive, I would have chalked it up to bad luck. As for design of the mag, GD, Ranger Bonded, GS, CDuty did not dent.
What was their response again?
Please feel free to PM.
OP, what is the handgun these were loaded in, if I may ask? How long after loading the magazine did you notice they were dented?
FWIW, upon a little googling, it seems this issue has been a recurring one, and has been discussed on several other forums as well over the past 5 years. Do a Google image search for "federal hst creased case" to read more. Some people specifically noted it occurring in their M&P40C, and pointed out the sidewall geometry of the M&P mags as they taper upward matched the pattern of denting in the cases they noticed, similar to the experience my friend had with the FNP40. There are other anecdotal reports of it happening in a variety of other mfgr's magazines, however, so I'm not sure the mag geometry is related.
Again, not to imply this is actually a problem one needs to be concerned about, as the examples my friend experienced all fed/shot/ejected/functioned normally. I'm curious what combination of factors causes it, however.
I'm going to load some HST I recently got into M&P 9mm magazines and see if anything of note happens.
Its a M&P 40. I will do some research. I just found it disconcerting that the casing rim would have caused it to dent. The mag spring is taut but it still compresses. And I have nearly 650 rounds in it and its my carry weapon.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/03/e8a6upes.jpg
May say screw it and carry my New Army [emoji12]
Not quite sure why the response from ATK is so secretive. People routinely share ammo related info so someone else can avoid a potential issue.
Ig. Wasn't sure what the policy on this forum of sharing a personal email. I'd be happy to post with the names redacted
People do at all the time with the appropriate information redacted.
Sgt. , Thank you for your contact, concerning the dents in your duty rounds. Without an opportunity to inspect your ammo prior to loading into magazines, we believe the 40S&W came out of the box undented, or you would have noticed the dents. If the ammunition went into the magazines undented and came out with these dents after a period of carrying on duty, we don’t believe this is an ammunition issue. The conventional cup and draw method of case manufacturing is the same on .40S&W as it has been for nearly 20 years. We have not changed over to “thinner” or weaker brass. You didn’t mention what firearm/magazine system you’re using, we suggest that you contact the firearm manufacturer for advice. The lot number you provided shows your ammunition was manufactured in March of this year. Thanks again for your inquiry. Mgr.
Sgt. , Thank you for your contact, concerning the dents in your duty rounds. Without an opportunity to inspect your ammo prior to loading into magazines, we believe the 40S&W came out of the box undented, or you would have noticed the dents. If the ammunition went into the magazines undented and came out with these dents after a period of carrying on duty, we don’t believe this is an ammunition issue. The conventional cup and draw method of case manufacturing is the same on .40S&W as it has been for nearly 20 years. We have not changed over to “thinner” or weaker brass. You didn’t mention what firearm/magazine system you’re using, we suggest that you contact the firearm manufacturer for advice. The lot number you provided shows your ammunition was manufactured in March of this year. Thanks again for your inquiry. Mgr.
I don't know their process, but there is probably an infinite # of variables at play here, half of which the author has no idea about. I'm assuming they don't have technical people answering customer emails. Do they anneal after they draw? What is the temper/hardenss before draw? I'm curious what is the hardness of the brass is compared to other brass(of finished product)? If EVERYONES brass doesn't dent but theirs, obviously its on them. Now, if its an actual issue is a completely different topic than what I'm touching on here(I would not be worried about it.) Point is, I understand your irritation with that email. They wrote a paragraph of words, but there was no information given.
You can have the same type of process and material thickness with VASTLY different properties. Also, "weaker" can have different meanings. "Weaker" could mean less tough, which is harder. So maybe using "tougher" brass could cause this?
... At over a dollar a round I expect that to not be the case.
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I just paid $24.95 plus shipping no tax for 50 rounds. You need to shop around.
I have been using HST for years. In all my time loading Glock mags in 9mm, .40, and .45 I have never dented the cases. However, I do notice a VERY slight dent on cartridges that have been chambered. I always set the chambered round aside when unloading and only re-chamber it twice, piling up the rounds for later range use. This used to get very expensive depending on how much I unloaded and reloaded, but now that I have a dedicated carry gun and a dedicated range gun, not so much anymore unless I travel.
The photo shows some pretty significant dents. I would not be comfortable carrying those for duty use regardless of the posts that say just shoot it. Even if there was only the slightest chance those deep dents could weaken the case enough to blow it out, this is absolutely not something I would chance with a duty gun.
I just paid $24.95 plus shipping no tax for 50 rounds. You need to shop around.
Very few places will ship to Chicago and I cannot emphasize "very few" enough. Illinois still considers BP a firearm and if you purchase one in state still have to follow the waiting period.
PatrioticDisorder
02-06-15, 07:13
None of my HST 180gr purchased in early fall 2012 do that, I have several loaded in M&P mags from the Shield, compact and full size, no dents or anything remotely like that. That is very odd I must say.
Well I'm eating crow, I checked my carry ammo for the first time in a while, my 147 & 124 g&r HSTs have no issues but my M&P compact .40 loaded with 180gr HSTs have 6/10 rounds dented most worse than OPs, my .40 Shield and. Full size .40 M&P do not have any issues. The .40 compact has always been hard to load with a full mag so I'm not sure if this is an ammo issue or an issue with the M&P compact .40.
PatrioticDisorder
02-06-15, 07:18
OP, what is the handgun these were loaded in, if I may ask? How long after loading the magazine did you notice they were dented?
FWIW, upon a little googling, it seems this issue has been a recurring one, and has been discussed on several other forums as well over the past 5 years. Do a Google image search for "federal hst creased case" to read more. Some people specifically noted it occurring in their M&P40C, and pointed out the sidewall geometry of the M&P mags as they taper upward matched the pattern of denting in the cases they noticed, similar to the experience my friend had with the FNP40. There are other anecdotal reports of it happening in a variety of other mfgr's magazines, however, so I'm not sure the mag geometry is related.
Again, not to imply this is actually a problem one needs to be concerned about, as the examples my friend experienced all fed/shot/ejected/functioned normally. I'm curious what combination of factors causes it, however.
I'm going to load some HST I recently got into M&P 9mm magazines and see if anything of note happens.
I missed this the first time around, M&P 40c seems to be the culprit, at least for me. I'm going to treat it as a 9 round magazine instead of 10 round magazine, seems to seat in the gun much much easier (like all my other M&Ps do).
I missed this the first time around, M&P 40c seems to be the culprit, at least for me. I'm going to treat it as a 9 round magazine instead of 10 round magazine, seems to seat in the gun much much easier (like all my other M&Ps do).
I ALWAYS download my mags by at least one, regardless of caliber.
These are the reasons I always preached to the Officers check your ammo before you load up your mags and gun. Even the best companies can have issues because there built on machines and they make them quickly. It a mechanical device that makes ammo. That appears to have been caused in manufacturing when loading the bullet head into the case. Possibly not enough belling on the case mouth for the bullet to seat properly. Give federal a call, I'm sure they are going to want that box and lot number. Speer had a problem many years ago and recalled tons of duty ammo then resold it as training ammo only, not for duty use. Because of the bulge and dent those rounds are out of spec, so why don't you use the departments ammo. I have found ripped cases on brand new duty ammo and primers upside down or crushed on their sides. Always inspect ever piece of ammo before using it for duty use. I would pick out the bad ones then remove the barrel of my gun and drop each round into the barrel to properly insure they are in spec.
PatrioticDisorder
02-08-15, 08:27
These are the reasons I always preached to the Officers check your ammo before you load up your mags and gun. Even the best companies can have issues because there built on machines and they make them quickly. It a mechanical device that makes ammo. That appears to have been caused in manufacturing when loading the bullet head into the case. Possibly not enough belling on the case mouth for the bullet to seat properly. Give federal a call, I'm sure they are going to want that box and lot number. Speer had a problem many years ago and recalled tons of duty ammo then resold it as training ammo only, not for duty use. Because of the bulge and dent those rounds are out of spec, so why don't you use the departments ammo. I have found ripped cases on brand new duty ammo and primers upside down or crushed on their sides. Always inspect ever piece of ammo before using it for duty use. I would pick out the bad ones then remove the barrel of my gun and drop each round into the barrel to properly insure they are in spec.
In my case the ammo was perfect before It was ever loaded, only 1 of my handguns caused the casings to deform.
My unqualified opinion is that the brass was too soft because of extent of annealing. It's likely that this batch of brass was used throughout different ammo lots and may not be traceable by the maker. Doesn't Beretta recommend unloading their 92 mags and then reloading ammo in a different sequence so as to avoid dimensional change? I've never heard an explanation for their recommendation.
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