View Full Version : Not one of us is without our vices - underfolder stocked AK's
Hello, my name is Brian and I have a problem.
I'm an advocate of the AK platform, I like just about every aspect of them and find them to be incredibly versatile platforms and honestly I do prefer them to the AR platform (just barely) albeit my latest build has upset that balance in the force.
I particularly enjoy the underfolder stock variants, I guess that makes me sort of a masochist in a way but the utility/versatility standpoint is very hard to ignore... at least it is for me. I had a Polish underfolder a while back that was my first AK along with a couple others that I ended up getting rid of or trading at some point and worked my way into a very nice Norinco type 56 fixed stock that I truly love, except for the fact that it is a fixed stock. Don't get me wrong here, it is a joy to shoot - recoil? What recoil? Accurate, dependable and can easily be used as a bludgeon if that time were to come about. Recently, I acquired another underfolder for a price that I could not pass up (well, a trade) and it has come full circle - I really truly do love the underfolder despite that many in the black rifle community dislike them, calling them uncomfortable/painful to shoot and fall short of the fixed stock versions in regards to cheek weld and in general shootability although I do tend to disagree and it comes down to user preference and a myriad of other subjective reasons.
I have run carbine courses, 3 guns and a lot of informal plate matches including several run and guns with friends and family and have tried to convince myself that it is an inferior platform in comparison to a fixed stock AK such as my Norinco but I still have yet been able to do so. My course times, split times and other various factors that generally are used to set a standard of which to show which one is run better with have been for the most part inconclusive - except vehicle drills and un-assing myself off the X and into a better position is where I find the U/F platform to shine unless I am going from folded to deployed can some times be a bit hectic due to the sling that I am using, but I do think that is something that can be better mitigated through training or just leaving it deployed (but then again I have to hammer myself on muscle memory on these aspects as well).
Yes, when run hard I do end up bruising my jaw with the U/F but some paracord along with not being a bitch will help with that as well - who hasn't hurt themselves during training, right? But the compactness and the fact that the U/F typically is a little bit lighter than most fixed stock variants - especially compared to my pig of a Norinco makes my kit a bit lighter and we all know that weight saved is GOLDEN. My norinco has been upgraded a bit with a Krebs rear peep sight, trijicon front night sight, custom made WML light mount and AK-74 brake that makes it heavier but a nicer shooter overall so maybe the comparison isn't all that fair until I outfit the U/F similarly.
I don't want to turn this into pissing match, but I wanted to hear from others on this board, of which I highly respect the opinions of due to experience and BTDT credentials along with valuable insight as to why the U/F platform gets the dissonance that it does. I know opinions are like A'holes but again I want to hear what y'all have to say.
Will I get rid of my AK's for an SLR-107f? possibly, but in my AO they are just about as rare as common sense.
Anyway, long story short - is there anyone else here that finds that they prefer the U/F in comparison or, am I just pissing up the wrong tree on this one and just keep my U/F as another training weapon and a backup to my other fixed stock AK's?
Of course I cannot have a thread about these without at least one picture of my third world battle rifles...
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140614_150631_zps957db8b5.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140614_150139_zpsef2e7f32.jpg
Please excuse the absolute filth that is my workshop floor, usually I am fairly OCD about cleanliness but way too much going on at the present to get down and scrub the floor.
Moose-Knuckle
06-14-14, 15:17
Here is the rub with underfolders, they can become loose over time and rattle. That does not impact the function of the rifle one bit. Also, they are not known to be very comfortable to shoot with compared to standard buttstocks and modern 100 series folders. I would think they are not as sturdy as side folders for butt strokes either. YMMV.
Lovely Norinco. Good looking UF. WASR?
The UF earned its rep because of the less than ideal cheek weld and the fact that the stocks can loosen up over time and get sloppy. There is nothing "wrong" with the rest of the rifle. As long as a person recognizes that they are trading cheek weld and comfort for compact then it's all good. Kinda like accepting your Snubby isn't the best tool for the job but that it is small and light so you'll have it.
DBMG makes an AK Tri-Rail and RS Regulate makes their BM-1 for light mounting solutions.
CNC Warrior and Manticore Arms both make plenty of FH and brake/comp options in 14mmLH.
Lovely Norinco. Good looking UF. WASR?
The UF earned its rep because of the less than ideal cheek weld and the fact that the stocks can loosen up over time and get sloppy. There is nothing "wrong" with the rest of the rifle. As long as a person recognizes that they are trading cheek weld and comfort for compact then it's all good. Kinda like accepting your Snubby isn't the best tool for the job but that it is small and light so you'll have it.
DBMG makes an AK Tri-Rail and RS Regulate makes their BM-1 for light mounting solutions.
CNC Warrior and Manticore Arms both make plenty of FH and brake/comp options in 14mmLH.
Thanks for the compliment on the Norinco, I do love it! And that's strange, how do you know that my EDC CCW is a J-frame snub?!
and yes, it is a WASR - I went through an entire rack to find one that was built well and solid. Can't beat the WASR AK for it's price and function IF you are able to inspect it firsthand and have a few to go through to pick out the nicest one of the lot.
Looking into the damage industries muzzle brake currently for my U/F and possibly to replace the '74 brake on the Norinco if it mitigates recoil as well because it's much smaller and lighter. As for the light mount, I made the one on my Norinco and it works pretty dang well and cost me $20 in parts to do so.
Here is the rub with underfolders, they can become loose over time and rattle. That does not impact the function of the rifle one bit. Also, they are not known to be very comfortable to shoot with compared to standard buttstocks and modern 100 series folders. I would think they are not as sturdy as side folders for butt strokes either. YMMV.
My polish U/F was still quite tight even after years of abuse and use, but nowhere near as bad as some that I have come across. This newer U/F I picked up has the tightest well fitted U/F stock I have come across yet and hopefully it stays that way, it has and will continue to get worked hard and if it does end up getting unacceptably loose then I will address it and figure out a solution. I do concur with you on it's lack of rigidity for buttstroking objects but then again that isn't a everyday practice that I have to do and I am certain that if you were to grip the two side bars and exert the force necessary I think that it wouldn't be FUBAR'd - may have to try it out on my punching bag I have in my workout area.
I find underfolders (at least the Yugo) every bit as comfortable to shoot as a regular stocked AK. The wide butt seems to spread out recoil nicely. Also, a bit of filing to get the butt locking nubs lets you get it nearly vertical which lets you shoulder it more quickly and easily. I never shot them in sub-freezing temps so that is a factor for paracord/etc. I don't seem to have a problem with cheekweld that so many talk about.
I'm a Paramedic. I know everything. :cool:
:jester:
Truth be told I keep a Yugo M70AB2 in the back of the safe. It's not my primary AK but it's too cool to let go.
Moose-Knuckle
06-14-14, 20:48
The wide butt seems to spread out . . . . . nicely.
Oh wait, nevermind.
Oh wait, nevermind.
Is it strange that I was thinking almost the exact same thing when I read that sentence?
I'm a Paramedic. I know everything. :cool:
:jester:
Truth be told I keep a Yugo M70AB2 in the back of the safe. It's not my primary AK but it's too cool to let go.
I had an M70ab2 at one point in time, then a friend of mine talked me out of it.
Moose-Knuckle
06-15-14, 01:41
Is it strange that I was thinking almost the exact same thing when I read that sentence?
Not at all, there are worst things in this world for a boy to obsess over other than Kalashnikovs and the derrières of the females of the species.
I've owned a lot of AKs over the years but I've never had an under folder. Now that I've seen this post I've decided that must change and will have to go shopping for one tomorrow.
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Not at all, there are worst things in this world for a boy to obsess over other than Kalashnikovs and the derrières of the females of the species.
Right you are, sir. There are much worse things out there to be concerned over... But Kalashnikovs and females are two things that consume a good portion of my thought processes (although if my girl asks, it is just 'female' and it damn well better be her otherwise no nookie :( )
I've owned a lot of AKs over the years but I've never had an under folder. Now that I've seen this post I've decided that must change and will have to go shopping for one tomorrow.
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I like the way you make decisions. Logical, concise, immediate and having the reason that you've never had one to be the sole deciding factor to purchase one...
Right you are, sir. There are much worse things out there to be concerned over... But Kalashnikovs and females are two things that consume a good portion of my thought processes (although if my girl asks, it is just 'female' and it damn well better be her otherwise no nookie :( )
I like the way you make decisions. Logical, concise, immediate and having the reason that you've never had one to be the sole deciding factor to purchase one...
I like to think it makes sense.. Hopefully I'll find one tomorrow.. None of my LGS ever have much in the way of decent AK's
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I've never messed with a Yugo underfolder. The one I did have the displeasure of shooting was a century gun. Especially in prone. However it was ok if shooting with a padded strap in the way, whether it be a PC, chest rig, or had a pack on.
Once I got my hands on a 100 series folding stock I realized I could have my cake and eat or too.
It folds and when extended it's every bit as comfortable and solid as a fixed stock variant.
A folding stock is what makes the modern AK an awesome part of my collection. Even better it's handier to take with me. All I have to do is throw it in a discreet 26" case and out the door I go and doesn't have to break down like an AR.
Well they are among the shortest of 16 inch AK's I'll give them that.
I didn't own mine (A beautiful Vector Arms, mostly Polish parts) very long because I hated the underfolder stock.
It started off okay but quickly got some annoying wobble to it. Another annoyance was having to release the pistol grip to open it. Very clumsy. The final straw was how much the "ears" that are raised while the stock is open (in use) catches on clothing and anything else badly. I considered cutting those off but in the end just sold the rifle.
As for the AK in general that's probably another thread. I used to think they were the best but now realize they are a tool with a certain purpose and limitations.
Also, just as a side note, having been one and around cops/feds for years I can tell you that the guy on scene with the AK is always perceived as the bad guy. Oh it may get straightened out later on but that may be too late. No it's not right but that's the way it is.
My take on the UF AK thing is they look great but aren't so hot for actual use. Kinda like dating a hot chick who can't cook, clean, and isn't that good in the sack.
For folders the AK-100 style left side folders are great. You get a more compact rifle for storage/transport but the stock locks up solid and shoots like a fixed stock. The only fly in the ointment is if you also run optics on the left hand rail, since that keeps the stock from folding all the way.
Personally, I have one left hand folder and one fixed. Going back to my original analogy, does that make me a bigamist?
H
There is no comparison to an AK100 style folder, or triangle for that matter. Its an older system, as per the MP 40.
It is cool. It brings out the libtard hate factor , and it is quite compact. It is also not as bad as folks make them out to be. A 'collection' should have one. Nice thread, Brian. Again, I find that they shoot very smoothly and comfortably.
But if you want LIGHT, SUPER compact, and a stock that deploys with the flick of your wrist, get a VZ 58.
It started off okay but quickly got some annoying wobble to it. Another annoyance was having to release the pistol grip to open it. Very clumsy. The final straw was how much the "ears" that are raised while the stock is open (in use) catches on clothing and anything else badly. I considered cutting those off but in the end just sold the rifle.
As for the AK in general that's probably another thread. I used to think they were the best but now realize they are a tool with a certain purpose and limitations.
Also, just as a side note, having been one and around cops/feds for years I can tell you that the guy on scene with the AK is always perceived as the bad guy. Oh it may get straightened out later on but that may be too late. No it's not right but that's the way it is.
The ears do catch on things, especially my chest rig/plate carrier so more caution has to be used when shouldering with gear on. I do agree on the AK system not being the best, but within its limitations I think they are very effective and capable systems especially when utilized within their ballistic efficiency envelope. It is very hard to ignore the capability of an almost infallibly reliable, decently accurate .30 cal lead launcher.
They do have the reputation of the bad guys gun, trust me - anyone with an assault rifle is considered the bad guy. I the threat is done, I will not have a weapon in my hands.
My take on the UF AK thing is they look great but aren't so hot for actual use. Kinda like dating a hot chick who can't cook, clean, and isn't that good in the sack.
For folders the AK-100 style left side folders are great. You get a more compact rifle for storage/transport but the stock locks up solid and shoots like a fixed stock. The only fly in the ointment is if you also run optics on the left hand rail, since that keeps the stock from folding all the way.
Personally, I have one left hand folder and one fixed. Going back to my original analogy, does that make me a bigamist?
H
I like your analogy, I guess that's why I have a couple AR's, couple AK's and an HK G3-A3... Kind of like dating a blonde, having a brunette on the side and a banging hot redhead as a late night call chick.
There is no comparison to an AK100 style folder, or triangle for that matter. Its an older system, as per the MP 40.
It is cool. It brings out the libtard hate factor , and it is quite compact. It is also not as bad as folks make them out to be. A 'collection' should have one. Nice thread, Brian. Again, I find that they shoot very smoothly and comfortably.
But if you want LIGHT, SUPER compact, and a stock that deploys with the flick of your wrist, get a VZ 58.
I would be all over a VZ-58 except for the absolute terrible decision to use proprietary magazines... I like you have absolutely no issues with UF's except for the chin abuse when run really hard but I haven't attempted to remedy that at all.
As for the libtard hate, I take it in stride - the underfolder always gets the most attention anywhere I go.
Brian: While sharing mags would be VERY nice - especially for us, in the late 50s, for folks who really liked something that met lighter specs and something 'national', it is reasonable. Also, the mags become available from time to time for very good prices, don't have sharp edges, and are VERY light weight, and have a great fit.
Brian: While sharing mags would be VERY nice - especially for us, in the late 50s, for folks who really liked something that met lighter specs and something 'national', it is reasonable. Also, the mags become available from time to time for very good prices, don't have sharp edges, and are VERY light weight, and have a great fit.
Agree with that! I wish AK's took Vz-58 mags, not the other way around!
The big problem with the Vz's is optics. It's even harder and less ergonomic to do than on an AK.
Agree with that! I wish AK's took Vz-58 mags, not the other way around!
The big problem with the Vz's is optics. It's even harder and less ergonomic to do than on an AK.
What? You don't find this practical?
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh255/amarshall_photo/scopemountclosed.jpg
Ha that is ridiculous! ^
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I just ordered a Arsenal SAM7UF-85 today. It should be here next week. I can't wait to get it and shoot the hell out of it. It will be my first AK even though I am not new to the platform.
I saw someone mention availability of VZ58 mags and just stumbled upon this.. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=MVZ58
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Ive sold a lot of guns in the past, and the one I regret selling the most was a WASR underfolder. It had a pretty rough finish, but it went bang every time and was accurate enough for what it was. I have two side folders now, but would love an UF again. They are the most compact when folded, and I am able to get a fairly good cheek weld. I think they make great truck guns
Ive sold a lot of guns in the past, and the one I regret selling the most was a WASR underfolder. It had a pretty rough finish, but it went bang every time and was accurate enough for what it was. I have two side folders now, but would love an UF again. They are the most compact when folded, and I am able to get a fairly good cheek weld. I think they make great truck guns
Except for an SBR AK, nothing beats an underfolder for a compact light truck gun. Atleast in my humble opinion. My WASR underfolder is a fantastic gun! while it doesn't replace my norinco as my go to AK it sure does the job when I don't have a lot of room to spare. It honestly shoots just as well as my norinco and cost half as much...
Well guys, I just happened across a deal today that I couldn't pass up in a trade for my underfolder WASR. A friend of mine got a brand new M&M M10 and decided he liked my underfolder more and offered to trade straight up for it. This M10 came with the wire side folder so it is still compact.
He did say that if I decided I wanted my underfolder back he would trade back... But I am pretty happy about this M10, very solid rifle.
AK underfolders are not a vice. You get a much better cheek weld from a vice.
VZ mags are different for a reason. They do things an AK mag will never do.
Love my YUGO M70 AB2. It's one of the icons of my age and does just exactly what it's suppose to do... Just saying.. Cheers..
Brian: While sharing mags would be VERY nice - especially for us, in the late 50s, for folks who really liked something that met lighter specs and something 'national', it is reasonable. Also, the mags become available from time to time for very good prices, don't have sharp edges, and are VERY light weight, and have a great fit.
I will agree with you, the VZ-58 and it's magazines are superior in their design and the VZ58 never got off the ground like it should have. I wish as well that they would cross fit between the two rifles but we are not that fortunate. For my gear, my money and how I like to set up my systems to work with my friends as well... It's going to be AK/AR all the way.
Jakedasnake
08-04-14, 07:55
Hello, my name is Brian and I have a problem.
I'm an advocate of the AK platform, I like just about every aspect of them and find them to be incredibly versatile platforms and honestly I do prefer them to the AR platform (just barely) albeit my latest build has upset that balance in the force.
I particularly enjoy the underfolder stock variants, I guess that makes me sort of a masochist in a way but the utility/versatility standpoint is very hard to ignore... at least it is for me. I had a Polish underfolder a while back that was my first AK along with a couple others that I ended up getting rid of or trading at some point and worked my way into a very nice Norinco type 56 fixed stock that I truly love, except for the fact that it is a fixed stock. Don't get me wrong here, it is a joy to shoot - recoil? What recoil? Accurate, dependable and can easily be used as a bludgeon if that time were to come about. Recently, I acquired another underfolder for a price that I could not pass up (well, a trade) and it has come full circle - I really truly do love the underfolder despite that many in the black rifle community dislike them, calling them uncomfortable/painful to shoot and fall short of the fixed stock versions in regards to cheek weld and in general shootability although I do tend to disagree and it comes down to user preference and a myriad of other subjective reasons.
I have run carbine courses, 3 guns and a lot of informal plate matches including several run and guns with friends and family and have tried to convince myself that it is an inferior platform in comparison to a fixed stock AK such as my Norinco but I still have yet been able to do so. My course times, split times and other various factors that generally are used to set a standard of which to show which one is run better with have been for the most part inconclusive - except vehicle drills and un-assing myself off the X and into a better position is where I find the U/F platform to shine unless I am going from folded to deployed can some times be a bit hectic due to the sling that I am using, but I do think that is something that can be better mitigated through training or just leaving it deployed (but then again I have to hammer myself on muscle memory on these aspects as well).
Yes, when run hard I do end up bruising my jaw with the U/F but some paracord along with not being a bitch will help with that as well - who hasn't hurt themselves during training, right? But the compactness and the fact that the U/F typically is a little bit lighter than most fixed stock variants - especially compared to my pig of a Norinco makes my kit a bit lighter and we all know that weight saved is GOLDEN. My norinco has been upgraded a bit with a Krebs rear peep sight, trijicon front night sight, custom made WML light mount and AK-74 brake that makes it heavier but a nicer shooter overall so maybe the comparison isn't all that fair until I outfit the U/F similarly.
I don't want to turn this into pissing match, but I wanted to hear from others on this board, of which I highly respect the opinions of due to experience and BTDT credentials along with valuable insight as to why the U/F platform gets the dissonance that it does. I know opinions are like A'holes but again I want to hear what y'all have to say.
Will I get rid of my AK's for an SLR-107f? possibly, but in my AO they are just about as rare as common sense.
Anyway, long story short - is there anyone else here that finds that they prefer the U/F in comparison or, am I just pissing up the wrong tree on this one and just keep my U/F as another training weapon and a backup to my other fixed stock AK's?
Of course I cannot have a thread about these without at least one picture of my third world battle rifles...
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140614_150631_zps957db8b5.jpg
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/bstegall31/20140614_150139_zpsef2e7f32.jpg
Please excuse the absolute filth that is my workshop floor, usually I am fairly OCD about cleanliness but way too much going on at the present to get down and scrub the floor.
I Love my M92 UF SBR! The stuck is slightly shorter than you average UF stock. Plus, I utilize a sturdy cheek peace for it.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/04/ugabapeh.jpg
Jakedasnake
08-04-14, 08:01
^^^Like I so much it's my screen saver! :-D
where did you find the cheek rest?
where did you find the cheek rest?
Looks like the Samson Manufacturing cheek riser.
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