View Full Version : UPDATE 17 July 2014 - Appears Gas Key Striking Lower- Input Please
SEE POST #51 FOR FINAL UPDATE - If you care...
SEE POST #35 FOR UPDATE
Below are some pics of the lower my FACTORY Daniel Defense Mk18 SBR. Bought the rifle as a factory new SBR...
I had some initial issues getting the carbine to run reliably as new. It was sent off to DD because of numerous malfunctions and it is running better now (I am positive it is overgassed). Then, I noticed this today while cleaning. Appears the gas key has been or had been lightly hitting the receiver. The carbine has been primarily shot with a Gemtech Trek T suppressor.
I verified the length of the buffer tube (appears in spec) and at full stop to the rearward position of the BGC, there is a about a 1/16" gap between the gas key and the receiver. More than anything, it appears the anodizing was chipped off and I can barely make out a light rub mark in the shape of the key. Using a razor straight edge, it does not appear the alloy itself has been deformed.
I can guess what's behind and I'll contact DD tomorrow but I'd like some of your input in the meantime. I am assuming this is not normal for a suppressed SBR.
Not the best pics but the best I could do. Thanks for the input.
http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu43/pomyc/image4_zpse426a2d2.jpeg (http://s632.photobucket.com/user/pomyc/media/image4_zpse426a2d2.jpeg.html)
http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu43/pomyc/image5_zpsab25a1f4.jpeg (http://s632.photobucket.com/user/pomyc/media/image5_zpsab25a1f4.jpeg.html)
What buffer assembly are you using? Does the bumper look like it has been taking a beating? The other part that you need to inspect is the disconnecter. Check the location indicated below to see if the hood on the hammer has been making significant contact. It's sounding like an H3 or X Buffer may be necessary.
26581
Currently an H2 with a white Springco spring. Bumper looks normal. The disconnector appears to have some slight contact marks but my other ARs appear to have similar marks. Thanks.
What buffer assembly are you using? Does the bumper look like it has been taking a beating? The other part that you need to inspect is the disconnecter. Check the location indicated below to see if the hood on the hammer has been making significant contact. It's sounding like an H3 or X Buffer may be necessary.
26581
I verified the length of the buffer tube (appears in spec) and at full stop to the rearward position of the BGC, there is a about a 1/16" gap between the gas key and the receiver. More than anything, it appears the anodizing was chipped off and I can barely make out a light rub mark in the shape of the key. Using a razor straight edge, it does not appear the alloy itself has been deformed.
Should be closer to 3/16. It's improbable on a properly built AR for the carrier key to come in contact with the receiver. In any event, a carbine with a 10 inch barrel needs an H3 buffer without the suppressor. The suppressor certainly changes things. Very often on seriously over gassed shorty carbines, the hood on the hammer will come into contact with the spine of the disconnector to the point of deforming it.
If the receiver extension is manufactured and installed correctly (should be 7 inches deep) and the buffer assembly is the correct length and the bumper is manufactured with the correct material, something else is going on. Is there any chance it was shot without the buffer assembly and action spring installed?
Sparky5019
06-15-14, 17:39
I'd also consider a Tubb flat wire 36 coil buffer spring or at least a Sprinco blue. You could also trade the DD GB for a Syrac. That would smooth it out a lot!
BufordTJustice
06-15-14, 17:52
Actually, it is possible for the gas key to make contact with the lower even if everything is in spec (aside from the gas port). If requires being grossly overgassed.
The Army research paper in the calibrated over gassing thread notes that this was seen with the rifle length gas system when you open the gas port up enough.
This is a gas issue and needs to be remedied by an adjustable gas block or a new barrel with a smaller gas port.
Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk
Actually, it is possible for the gas key to make contact with the lower even if everything is in spec (aside from the gas port). If requires being grossly overgassed.
If I were driving on the road behind you, I'd call 911 and report you as DUI...
Thank gents for the replies.
I just got back from the range to do some troubleshooting. There is something out of whack with the lower. I put my BCM 11.5 (non-supressed) on the lower and put a piece of tape between the upper and the lower at the back end. Even the 11.5 took a small bite out of the tape.
Upon further inspection at the range, it appears to me the receiver extension should be turned one more time around... It has the extended lip on the bottom but the lip barely sits over top of the buffer catch. The additional twist looks to me like it will give me the +/- 3/16"...
I was able to try the suppressed upper with an H3 and blue Springco as well as with an H2 and white Springco. Same results.
There is no chance the gun was shot without the buffer and spring. I am the only owner of the carbine and again, it was new from DD at my LGS when I took possession after my stamp arrived. I did not shoot it sans buffer and spring. I still think it's overgassed. Especially when compared to how my 11.5 BCM shoots. The H3 and blue spring seemed to help but the thing still ejects brass about 9 feet and 1 o'clock even with low power .223 ammo. At least I haven't had any malfunctions since I got it back from Daniel Defense. Brand new the thing was frustrating - I had a bunch of malfunctions of every type. I don't know, experts who know more than me say not to read into the ejection pattern so long as it's reliable and it is has been upon fixing by DD. The BCM creates a nice pile of brass about 6 feet at 4 o'clock and it is so smooth.
Thank gents for the replies.
I just got back from the range to do some troubleshooting. There is something out of whack with the lower. I put my BCM 11.5 (non-supressed) on the lower and put a piece of tape between the upper and the lower at the back end. Even the 11.5 took a small bite out of the tape.
Upon further inspection at the range, it appears to me the receiver extension should be turned one more time around... It has the extended lip on the bottom but the lip barely sits over top of the buffer catch. The additional twist looks to me like it will give me the +/- 3/16"...
I was able to try the suppressed upper with an H3 and blue Springco as well as with an H2 and white Springco. Same results.
There is no chance the gun was shot without the buffer and spring. I am the only owner of the carbine and again, it was new from DD at my LGS when I took possession after my stamp arrived. I did not shoot it sans buffer and spring. I still think it's overgassed. Especially when compared to how my 11.5 BCM shoots. The H3 and blue spring seemed to help but the thing still ejects brass about 9 feet and 1 o'clock even with low power .223 ammo. At least I haven't had any malfunctions since I got it back from Daniel Defense. Brand new the thing was frustrating - I had a bunch of malfunctions of every type. I don't know, experts who know more than me say not to read into the ejection pattern so long as it's reliable and it is has been upon fixing by DD. The BCM creates a nice pile of brass about 6 feet at 4 o'clock and it is so smooth.
Excellent troubleshooting. I think everyone will agree that DD barrels have big gas ports to begin with and the suppressor exacerbates the problem but compressing the bumper on the buffer assembly to the point of impact is unlikely. One rotation of the receiver extension will shorten the travel of the bolt group by 1/16 of an inch. Since you have likely isolated the problem as the lower receiver and you are unable to get another turn out of the receiver extension, you may need to look at the location of the buffer retainer.
Is that the original receiver extension? Its hard to tell from the picture, but the castle nut doesn't appear to be staked.
If you know your key clearance is that small and continue to troubleshoot by test firing, then do yourself a favor and pull a quarter or two out of your pocket and drop them down the RE before the spring. There are many possible causes to your issue, including possible stacking of issues. The quarters will give you a margin of safety while you get your issue(s) resolved.
Another DD gaping gas port success story! :fie:
Get the syrac, forget the nonsense aftermarket springs.
Yes, it is the original receiver extension as delivered from DD. The castle nut is staked albeit barely. And just think, this was a gun I had purchased pre panic. Not impressed with the quality.
Is that the original receiver extension? It's hard to tell from the picture, but the castle nut doesn't appear to be staked.
You still have a decent gun if you bring that gas down to reality.
If his other upper had the key tagging the hoop, there's still other problems than just the over gassing.
sinlessorrow
06-19-14, 11:54
Just FYI DD Mk18's come with a super overgassed .081" gas port to allow use of wolf and tula ammunition. Proper port size is .071", so even in spec there could be striking due to how overgassed they make the Mk18.
For reference on how absurd .081 is... especially if you go suppressed, here's my 11.5 with .060" with a can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRk1anI-HnE
BufordTJustice
06-19-14, 11:59
If I were driving on the road behind you, I'd call 911 and report you as DUI...
I just saw your comment. Well, call Colt and the Army DUI as well...they did the research. ;)
See page 25, Part D) for the relevant statement.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/731218.pdf
BufordTJustice
06-19-14, 12:02
For reference on how absurd .081 is... especially if you go suppressed, here's my 11.5 with .060" with a can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRk1anI-HnE
Damn that BRT insert worked wonders! I could get an 18" with rifle length gas system to run on a .081 gas port. That's absurdly huge for an SBR (which DD should KNOW has a very high likelihood of being suppressed).
Marler5811
06-19-14, 12:40
Our COTS MK18 Uppers, Rifles, and Barrels do have a gas port diameter of .081". Yes, it is larger than the norm but we did this for good reasons. I think that we'd all agree that not all ammo will perform the same. Taking into consideration the short dwell times on a 10.3" barrel w/ carbine length gas system and which ammo is available on the commercial market, we had to optimize our gas port diameter to work with the widest range of ammunition which is available to end users and law enforcement agencies. The gas port diameter we've selected has proven to be very reliable with both 5.56 and most .223 ammunition. As a result of the reliability of our platform, the MK18 has been selected by many local, state, and federal agencies for duty purposes.
We welcome any and all feedback regarding our products. Both the good and the bad. It helps us become a better company and makes sure we stay on the cutting edge of manufacturing.
Semper Fi,
Joe Marler
sinlessorrow
06-19-14, 12:51
Our COTS MK18 Uppers, Rifles, and Barrels do have a gas port diameter of .081". Yes, it is larger than the norm but we did this for good reasons. I think that we'd all agree that not all ammo will perform the same. Taking into consideration the short dwell times on a 10.3" barrel w/ carbine length gas system and which ammo is available on the commercial market, we had to optimize our gas port diameter to work with the widest range of ammunition which is available to end users and law enforcement agencies. The gas port diameter we've selected has proven to be very reliable with both 5.56 and most .223 ammunition. As a result of the reliability of our platform, the MK18 has been selected by many local, state, and federal agencies for duty purposes.
We welcome any and all feedback regarding our products. Both the good and the bad. It helps us become a better company and makes sure we stay on the cutting edge of manufacturing.
Semper Fi,
Joe Marler
At the cost of greatly reduced parts life. Imo it's a cop out to cater to the weaker ammunition folks who choose to run shit ammunition. At .081" the greatly increased cyclic rate is actually detrimental to timing and bolt life. I know when I had my DD mk18 upper it was by far the least reliable upper I have ever had, averaged 1FTExtract every 2 mags with M193 ammunition, I also broke my bolt at 5-6,000 rounds. This was with the A5 system, had I been running a H2 and carbine spring I would have had even more FTE's and less bolt life.
I understand the problem that DD is going to have a great deal of stupid end users who expect to blast garbage ammo into the side of a hill with their Mk18 clone. But damn.... it's an ass ache for the rest of us.
BufordTJustice
06-19-14, 13:14
Our COTS MK18 Uppers, Rifles, and Barrels do have a gas port diameter of .081". Yes, it is larger than the norm but we did this for good reasons. I think that we'd all agree that not all ammo will perform the same. Taking into consideration the short dwell times on a 10.3" barrel w/ carbine length gas system and which ammo is available on the commercial market, we had to optimize our gas port diameter to work with the widest range of ammunition which is available to end users and law enforcement agencies. The gas port diameter we've selected has proven to be very reliable with both 5.56 and most .223 ammunition. As a result of the reliability of our platform, the MK18 has been selected by many local, state, and federal agencies for duty purposes.
We welcome any and all feedback regarding our products. Both the good and the bad. It helps us become a better company and makes sure we stay on the cutting edge of manufacturing.
Semper Fi,
Joe Marler
I understand what you are saying Joe. But, this is substantively punishing those who shoot full-power ammo (and also reducing parts life) to prevent complaints from the folks who insist on running their carbines dry with weak ammo.
Again, I understand why. Maybe consider developing an adjustable gas block or including a COTS solution from a partner company to address this?
Joe; Thanks for the response. I just sent you a PM and email asking for your opinion on my particular current issues... No luck getting a response from your Tech Support or Customer Service after several tries this week.
I went ahead and ordered a Syrac Gen II gas block from Brownell's. It will arrive Saturday.
So, the main question I still have after reading all the responses (thanks by the way), is the striking of my receiver in spec or not for this gun? The data from the BRL report is interesting but is it applicable for the 10.3 in barrel?
I know the Syrac will help but I am still suspicious that the key will continue to hit because, as mentioned, I put my BCM 11.5 upper (unsuppressed) on the lower and it also hit though not as bad... The BCM upper is not overgassed...
All I want to do is shoot the dang gun and keep it around as long as possible especially the lower as it my only registered SBR lower at this point.
Lastly, regarding the use of a suppressor, I had this debate last night with a guy at the LGS. He wondered what DD would help with the issue, especially because I am running a suppressor? I don't know yet. But, seems to me, the 10.3 is run by most folks with a suppressor more times than not so... I would think that should be considered but, their house, their rules...
Our COTS MK18 Uppers, Rifles, and Barrels do have a gas port diameter of .081". Yes, it is larger than the norm but we did this for good reasons. I think that we'd all agree that not all ammo will perform the same. Taking into consideration the short dwell times on a 10.3" barrel w/ carbine length gas system and which ammo is available on the commercial market, we had to optimize our gas port diameter to work with the widest range of ammunition which is available to end users and law enforcement agencies. The gas port diameter we've selected has proven to be very reliable with both 5.56 and most .223 ammunition. As a result of the reliability of our platform, the MK18 has been selected by many local, state, and federal agencies for duty purposes.
We welcome any and all feedback regarding our products. Both the good and the bad. It helps us become a better company and makes sure we stay on the cutting edge of manufacturing.
Semper Fi,
Joe Marler
How firm is the buffer cap on the end of your buffer? Is it mis shaped at all? I did, one time, see a guy's buffer on an over gassed suppressed AR that had actually mushroomed in shape from the beating of the cycle.
BufordTJustice
06-19-14, 13:44
Joe; Thanks for the response. I just sent you a PM and email asking for your opinion on my particular current issues... No luck getting a response from your Tech Support or Customer Service after several tries this week.
I went ahead and ordered a Syrac Gen II gas block from Brownell's. It will arrive Saturday.
So, the main question I still have after reading all the responses (thanks by the way), is the striking of my receiver in spec or not for this gun? The data from the BRL report is interesting but is it applicable for the 10.3 in barrel?
I know the Syrac will help but I am still suspicious that the key will continue to hit because, as mentioned, I put my BCM 11.5 upper (unsuppressed) on the lower and it also hit though not as bad... The BCM upper is not overgassed...
All I want to do is shoot the dang gun and keep it around as long as possible especially the lower as it my only registered SBR lower at this point.
Lastly, regarding the use of a suppressor, I had this debate last night with a guy at the LGS. He wondered what DD would help with the issue, especially because I am running a suppressor? I don't know yet. But, seems to me, the 10.3 is run by most folks with a suppressor more times than not so... I would think that should be considered but, their house, their rules...
I think it should be obvious to a manufacturer that ANY gun with a barrel of less than 13.7-14.5" has drastically decreased utility as a carbine UNLESS it is suppressed. DD fails to recognize this at their own peril.
Why else would somebody settle for increased recoil, decreased range of operable conditions with regard to ammo pressure, decreased terminal effective range of ammo, and increased muzzle flash/blast? Those who buy and do not plan on putting a can on should be educated. This is like Porsche putting some Perelli P-Zero Corsas on a 911 GT3 and the new owner complains that the vehicle has little grip in the wet, gets crappy gas mileage, has poor tire life, and is noisy inside. To address these concerns of the uninformed buyer is to dilute what makes that car a legend in its own right.
DD is too good of a company to have this philosophy.
Appears nominal to me... It was purchased new not too long ago from BCM.
How firm is the buffer cap on the end of your buffer? Is it mis shaped at all? I did, one time, see a guy's buffer on an over gassed suppressed AR that had actually mushroomed in shape from the beating of the cycle.
Any new info on this? I've used a couple without issue, but just in case I run into something similar...
The entire gun is on it's way back to Daniel Defense. They agree, it's not normal. Joe and others at DD have made the commitment to get it right. They have really been helpful.
I'll post an update when they figure out what the issues are.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
justin_247
06-24-14, 19:04
I understand the problem that DD is going to have a great deal of stupid end users who expect to blast garbage ammo into the side of a hill with their Mk18 clone. But damn.... it's an ass ache for the rest of us.
Yup. Stupid consumers are the problem here.
Remember when the KAC SR15 came out? All kinds of people were complaining about how finicky it was with ammo. KAC reps replied to them and said that it's ridiculous for users to feed a race horse that cost a significant amount of money the cheapest ammo you can buy. And this made the critics even more mad. So they eventually opened up the gas port on their production models.
There is a large crowd in the AR community who believe that only rifles that will happily eat any and all ammo, no matter how crappy it is, are the only ones worth buying. And, unfortunately, they have a huge amount of influence...
So, we get to deal with crap like this as a result.
How hard would it be for DD to offer a parallel line of barrel assemblies with a "we've come here to see if you want to go pro" gas port?
BufordTJustice
06-24-14, 20:01
Yup. Stupid consumers are the problem here.
Remember when the KAC SR15 came out? All kinds of people were complaining about how finicky it was with ammo. KAC reps replied to them and said that it's ridiculous for users to feed a race horse that cost a significant amount of money the cheapest ammo you can buy. And this made the critics even more mad. So they eventually opened up the gas port on their production models.
There is a large crowd in the AR community who believe that only rifles that will happily eat any and all ammo, no matter how crappy it is, are the only ones worth buying. And, unfortunately, they have a huge amount of influence...
So, we get to deal with crap like this as a result.
Exactly. It's tantamount to non-defeatable traction and stability control on an excellent sports car. It detracts from the 10/10ths experience in an effort to keep a low-skill driver from wrapping that b*tch around a tree/telephone pole like a wet noodle.
Ruins it for the drivers who have the talent and put in the work to be able to drive the car at the limit.
What a d*mn shame. As anecdotal evidence of this, I steered a buddy into a DD V5 LW 16" over a year ago and he recently shot it back to back with another buddy's 16" BCM middy....instant p*nis envy and I got to enjoy an earful from my bud. Not fun. They function about the same when the DD is running an H3 and the BCM an H.
justin_247
06-25-14, 09:19
Exactly. It's tantamount to non-defeatable traction and stability control on an excellent sports car. It detracts from the 10/10ths experience in an effort to keep a low-skill driver from wrapping that b*tch around a tree/telephone pole like a wet noodle.
Ruins it for the drivers who have the talent and put in the work to be able to drive the car at the limit.
What a d*mn shame. As anecdotal evidence of this, I steered a buddy into a DD V5 LW 16" over a year ago and he recently shot it back to back with another buddy's 16" BCM middy....instant p*nis envy and I got to enjoy an earful from my bud. Not fun. They function about the same when the DD is running an H3 and the BCM an H.
It's sort of saddening to me, because DD rifles didn't used to be like this. As an example:
I have a DD XV (no longer in production) from 2009... it doesn't like some cheap steel-cased ammo, and I have to swap out the H-buffer for a Carbine buffer when I do shoot a lot of it. If anything, the gas port is probably a little on the small size, since I've heard (although have no evidence of this) that DD gas ports were actually a little bit smaller than the mil-spec originally.
That being said, it is really nice to shoot with quality ammo. I really like it.
There is a large crowd in the AR community who believe that only rifles that will happily eat any and all ammo, no matter how crappy it is, are the only ones worth buying. And, unfortunately, they have a huge amount of influence...
Yep. "I have a good gun... It runs every kind of ammo!" :stop:
I heard back from Daniel Defense today. Very disappointing news.
According to their Warranty Rep, the DD engineers have determined my factory SBR is defective and needs to be replaced. I asked for further detail as to what exactly the issues are but she did not have all the details today. She will provide details Monday. It does appear to be something with the lower.
The kicker is, as an NFA item, I have to wait for them to build a new gun, then transfer to a Class 3 dealer here then, guess what, I have to get in line and submit NEW paperwork to the ATF for a new stamp for the new gun. DD has offered to pay the $200 for the new stamp as well as provide me a "loaner" gun (non-NFA) of course.
I have A LOT of questions about the paper trail, timeframes, cost, etc... I am going to work with Daniel Defense on Monday to figure out next steps. I am going ask them to test the upper. If it is good, I will ask for it back for the interim. I am awaiting my stamp for a "spare" SBR lower that should come through any time I hope. Good thing I did the spare thing it appears.
So, there you have it. To say I am disappointed is an understatement. I just hope DD sticks with me and sees me through all of this. What a pain in the you-know-what.
The entire gun is on it's way back to Daniel Defense. They agree, it's not normal. Joe and others at DD have made the commitment to get it right. They have really been helpful.
I'll post an update when they figure out what the issues are.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Props to them for not only replacing the gun but also paying the Stamp.
However I am curious as to why they need to replace the lower as well.
Leaveammoforme
07-11-14, 20:27
However I am curious as to why they need to replace the lower as well.
Maybe something to do with receiver extension thread alignment or buffer retainer hole location?
It is certainly nice that DD is offering to take care of you, and that's to be expected given they have great CS. It's unfortunate they can't simply make a new lower with your same serial.
That said, the barrel you will get on the replacement gun is still going to cause you problems. I would seek a refund from DD and get a factory Colt 6933 or 6945. You could always re-barrel the former with a Colt 10.3" barrel from Specialized Armament Warehouse, sell the upper and build one, or just build a Colt Block II CQBR upper. If you have to wait anyway, might as well do it right from the start.
DD has the market somewhat cornered here as they are the only company to make a 10.3" factory Block II CQBR upper/rifle, but as mentioned their 10.3" uppers leave some things to be desired.
ETA: I don't say this to bad mouth DD. I'm actually getting ready go order another Mk18 RIS II to accompany the other RIS IIs I have. But it seems as though they are using the military designation of guns for which they make rails to market guns that appear similar but do not meet the actual spec. Sadly, I view it as a marketing ploy that attracts the uninformed consumer. But, hey, it says "Mk18," "M4A1," and "Mk12," on the side of the gun so they must be, right?
Daniel Defense will see you through it. They've the best CS in the firearms market hands down.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
This hits home for me: I owned a couple of DD M4v3s and both were reliable and after sending one of the uppers back (something was out of spec and the cam was chewing away at the gas key track) all was well.
Enters my next purchase, a 14.5 factory built, and issues similar to the OP became obvious within a couple hundred rounds of M855 and M193 through this carbine.
Pictures were sent to DD, but the only reply I got was "we have no idea what is causing this"... "good luck to you"...
Luckily, mine had a welded flash hider on. and no stamp was wasted on this.
Reliability was iffy and it ran rough.
However, it was far from a cheap build and this was and will be my last DD purchase.
This hits home for me: I owned a couple of DD M4v3s and both were reliable and after sending one of the uppers back (something was out of spec and the cam was chewing away at the gas key track) all was well.
Enters my next purchase, a 14.5 factory built, and issues similar to the OP became obvious within a couple hundred rounds of M855 and M193 through this carbine.
Pictures were sent to DD, but the only reply I got was "we have no idea what is causing this"... "good luck to you"...
Luckily, mine had a welded flash hider on. and no stamp was wasted on this.
Reliability was iffy and it ran rough.
However, it was far from a cheap build and this was and will be my last DD purchase.
I have had a lot of DD stuff and a few times have had to call them for support. Never have I gotten bad customer service. If anything they go out of their way to be helpful.
I have had a lot of DD stuff and a few times have had to call them for support. Never have I gotten bad customer service. If anything they go out of their way to be helpful.
That was my experience too prior to that time. They were great to deal with, knowledgeable and very helpful.
I do not know what happened, but someone dropped the ball on this one.
Our COTS MK18 Uppers, Rifles, and Barrels do have a gas port diameter of .081". Yes, it is larger than the norm but we did this for good reasons. I think that we'd all agree that not all ammo will perform the same. Taking into consideration the short dwell times on a 10.3" barrel w/ carbine length gas system and which ammo is available on the commercial market, we had to optimize our gas port diameter to work with the widest range of ammunition which is available to end users and law enforcement agencies. The gas port diameter we've selected has proven to be very reliable with both 5.56 and most .223 ammunition. As a result of the reliability of our platform, the MK18 has been selected by many local, state, and federal agencies for duty purposes.
We welcome any and all feedback regarding our products. Both the good and the bad. It helps us become a better company and makes sure we stay on the cutting edge of manufacturing.
Semper Fi,
Joe Marler
Thanks for weighing in. But just to give you one customers feedback, I was specifically looking at purchasing one of your rifles (the DD MK18) due to easy availability but the experience of others with overgass issues, especially when shooting suppressed, made me absolutely rethink my purchase.
I don't think most people who buy quality firearms are buying them with the ability to run "crap grade" ammo as any kind of criteria. I also didn't want to have to solve the problem with aftermarket gas regulators and such. It is my opinion, that you would be much better served, offering a rifle that has a smaller diameter gas port and as a result a SBR that doesn't beat itself up.
And when the inevitable call comes from a customer shooting bottom grade Z ammo, you can advise them that quality rifles shoot quality ammo. If you were making Z grade quality rifles for the "bubba crowd" then I'd understand your gas diameter thinking.
Not sure if it would be cost effective to offer two SBR options with different diameter gas ports but if you had one that was more or less the same diameter as a Colt, I would have purchased a DD rifle.
I heard back from Daniel Defense today. Very disappointing news.
According to their Warranty Rep, the DD engineers have determined my factory SBR is defective and needs to be replaced. I asked for further detail as to what exactly the issues are but she did not have all the details today. She will provide details Monday. It does appear to be something with the lower.
The kicker is, as an NFA item, I have to wait for them to build a new gun, then transfer to a Class 3 dealer here then, guess what, I have to get in line and submit NEW paperwork to the ATF for a new stamp for the new gun. DD has offered to pay the $200 for the new stamp as well as provide me a "loaner" gun (non-NFA) of course.
I have A LOT of questions about the paper trail, timeframes, cost, etc... I am going to work with Daniel Defense on Monday to figure out next steps. I am going ask them to test the upper. If it is good, I will ask for it back for the interim. I am awaiting my stamp for a "spare" SBR lower that should come through any time I hope. Good thing I did the spare thing it appears.
So, there you have it. To say I am disappointed is an understatement. I just hope DD sticks with me and sees me through all of this. What a pain in the you-know-what.
Honestly this is probably the best case scenario and there is little DD can do about the NFA process. A replacement gun that runs correctly is going to be far more enjoyable than a "fixed best we can" rifle that will have a lifetime of problems.
scoutfsu99
07-13-14, 22:30
Thanks for weighing in. But just to give you one customers feedback, I was specifically looking at purchasing one of your rifles (the DD MK18) due to easy availability but the experience of others with overgass issues, especially when shooting suppressed, made me absolutely rethink my purchase.
I don't think most people who buy quality firearms are buying them with the ability to run "crap grade" ammo as any kind of criteria. I also didn't want to have to solve the problem with aftermarket gas regulators and such. It is my opinion, that you would be much better served, offering a rifle that has a smaller diameter gas port and as a result a SBR that doesn't beat itself up.
And when the inevitable call comes from a customer shooting bottom grade Z ammo, you can advise them that quality rifles shoot quality ammo. If you were making Z grade quality rifles for the "bubba crowd" then I'd understand your gas diameter thinking.
Not sure if it would be cost effective to offer two SBR options with different diameter gas ports but if you had one that was more or less the same diameter as a Colt, I would have purchased a DD rifle.
Didn't KAC have to resize their ports due to people shooting lower quality ammunition in their SR's and then complaining?
Didn't KAC have to resize their ports due to people shooting lower quality ammunition in their SR's and then complaining?
Yup. Stupid consumers are the problem here.
Remember when the KAC SR15 came out? All kinds of people were complaining about how finicky it was with ammo. KAC reps replied to them and said that it's ridiculous for users to feed a race horse that cost a significant amount of money the cheapest ammo you can buy. And this made the critics even more mad. So they eventually opened up the gas port on their production models.
There is a large crowd in the AR community who believe that only rifles that will happily eat any and all ammo, no matter how crappy it is, are the only ones worth buying. And, unfortunately, they have a huge amount of influence...
So, we get to deal with crap like this as a result.
Page two.
scoutfsu99
07-14-14, 09:35
I know. I was reminding Steyr that a lot of people DO buy expensive rifles and expect to and want to run crappy ammo through them.
I'm the OP. I can say with certainty, this was not the case. I maintain my firearms appropriately and shoot only quality ammo.
Unfortunately, it seems I got a lemon with this gun as I have issues with it from the get go.
It is what it is now and I'm just anxious to get a game plan figured out with DD.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry to hear. At least DD is replacing your rifle, paying the $200tax stamp, and giving you a loaner. I mean, that's pretty good CS.
NFA process you have to go through is another story though. Good luck to you.
I know. I was reminding Steyr that a lot of people DO buy expensive rifles and expect to and want to run crappy ammo through them.
A lot of people are retarded. Stating the obvious of course.
And it's not like some custom tuned super match 1911 that will only work with one special brand of ammo, but even with a full size AR I wouldn't bet all the marbles on wolf, tula, freedom munitions and the like. You can put some of that stuff through an AK, but an AR is a different story.
But somewhere, someplace there is a guy who wants a Diesel Lamborghini. Most disturbing of all is he will somehow have the money to buy one if it existed.
Last update for those who might be interested. As of yesterday, me and DD came to a final resolution.
From a technical standpoint here is what I was told was the issue:
"After performing an evaluation to determine the cause of the malfunction (the bolt carrier group striking the buffer tube) it was discovered that the lower receiver was out of tolerance by .0014. This slight deviance resulted in the misalignment between the upper and lower causing the malfunction. Replacement of lower deemed necessary under warranty."
Resolution wise, as previously mentioned, it involves me getting a completely new factory Mk18, a loaner SBR URG (WITH an adjustable gas block!) until I get my new stamp, them paying $200 for my new stamp, and a few other considerations. I am not the type to try and take advantage of the situation by asking for unreasonable requests - much of what was offered was offered by DD. They genuinely cared and felt bad. More than anything, I am miffed at the ridiculous NFA process the sheep-handlers (aka our wonderful .gov) makes us go through. Had this been a non-NFA gun, I would have had a new gun by now - but I digress. Again, unfortunate situation but at the end of the day this is a minor situation in the overall grand scheme of life...
I can't say enough about the responsiveness and willingness to help by DD Warranty Administrator, Caroline Britton. I know Joe from DD (who posted in this thread) also had a hand in things initially.
Thanks all for your input and chiming in.
That is amazing customer service!
BufordTJustice
07-17-14, 10:30
Excellent outcome from a reputable company! Glad you got this resolved.
Quick Draw
07-17-14, 12:34
I believe DD set the standard for how a reputable company should resolve an issue like this.
It would be great if more companies followed suit when problems arise.
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