View Full Version : Captured AR's In Iraq.
I've been seeing a few photos of rebels carrying captured Iraqi Army AR's and I was wondering how long they may last in primitive conditions without support. Will we be seeing them 10 or 20 years from now, in the news, all beat to hell? Photos of severely abused M1's and M14's from the past, in various hell holes, come to mind. Most of those look like they are missing parts like sights and some even look inoperable.
They will be around a long time, unfortunately.
Those pos's learn how to really shoot those m4 out m16's they took, god I'd hate too be on the other end. Anyone who's ever ran an ak or sks knows they generally don't carry accuracy like an ar does.
Once they figure out to just dump oil in them they will keep them running. Can't remember where it was but saw a photo of some bad guy group in Asia that had nam era rifles, still in use today.
It's not the sand box, but that's al long time no less.
I feel that ar reliability issues are over blown. Most people aren't pounding out 1500 rounds a day like a class setting.
Off topic, butI hope things get toned down over there soon. This situation has so much potential to get totally out of hand so fast for everyone.
Unfortunately they will last long enough to do their job. Ammo and mags will be limited and will be a supply issue.
Here's some pictures I shared with Colt, about 6 years back. They're Iranian made, NORINCO tooled AR with "Golt" marked suppressor. Colt was totally unaware of it at the time.
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt1_zps0b1af3db.png?t=1403036629
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt2_zps5d2ee241.png?t=1403036641
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt3_zpsf5bcdea2.png?t=1403036650
That just strikes as amusing as in LOL! Did they follow the TDP?
Grand58742
06-17-14, 15:45
Here's some pictures I shared with Colt, about 6 years back. They're Iranian made, NORINCO tooled AR with "Golt" marked suppressor. Colt was totally unaware of it at the time.
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt1_zps0b1af3db.png?t=1403036629
On this one in particular, was the rear takedown pin pulled creating that gap or was it just that loose?
turnburglar
06-17-14, 15:48
Believe it or not, alot of these jihadists are real warriors. When I was in Afghanistan their AKs where always very clean, and I frequently observed them cleaning their rifles first thing after they woke up in the morning. Not a rag tag group of retards like most people imagine. After years of conflict Darwin's laws of combat have only left the good insurgents alive.
Believe it or not, alot of these jihadists are real warriors. When I was in Afghanistan their AKs where always very clean, and I frequently observed them cleaning their rifles first thing after they woke up in the morning. Not a rag tag group of retards like most people imagine. After years of conflict Darwin's laws of combat have only left the good insurgents alive.
Was this before or after they raped some poor goat or child?
However "good" these goat-****ers are, he only reason there are any left is because we are fighting this war with one hand behind our back and blindfolded.
If we cut the politically correct nonsense and just had at it, like we did with the Japanese and Germans, we would have finished this dog and pony show by now.
But I digress...
Don't forget that the Chinese make lots of ARs, mags and 5.56 ammo, so actually I don't foresee too many supply issues.
Here's some pictures I shared with Colt, about 6 years back. They're Iranian made, NORINCO tooled AR with "Golt" marked suppressor. Colt was totally unaware of it at the time.
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt1_zps0b1af3db.png?t=1403036629
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt2_zps5d2ee241.png?t=1403036641
http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag285/krommetall/IranColt3_zpsf5bcdea2.png?t=1403036650
that is crazy. on the surface that looks like a semi decent knock off.
what is NORINCO?
The suppressor is what I like.
Golt, made in USA by Persian machine and tool....lol.
Doc Safari
06-17-14, 17:37
I remember seeing pics from Nicaragua or El Salvador a while back. Someone had an early M16 that had the front of the mag well completely eaten through, due to wear or corrosion from the shooter(s) putting their hands there, I guess. Someone had fashioned a complete set of wood furniture for it. I'll try to find a pic on the innernetz if I can.
MorphCross
06-17-14, 17:39
that is crazy. on the surface that looks like a semi decent knock off.
what is NORINCO?
China North Industries Corporation. They are responsible for a variety of reproduction weapons. Their military repro's haven't been legally imported into the US since '93 and all their products have been blocked from importation since '03.
As to regards to the fighting effectiveness of different insurgents I have seen.
depends bro, Iranian Quds forced trained Shi militias and Bathist led sunni fighters are of course going to be more professional and proficient at fighting. I have seen some straight up retarded Haj in assholistan but I also seen some squared away Taliban as well. Just like I have seen some very stupid big army units that couldn't fight their way out of a toilet if they fell in.
Was this before or after they raped some poor goat or child?
However "good" these goat-****ers are, he only reason there are any left is because we are fighting this war with one hand behind our back and blindfolded.
If we cut the politically correct nonsense and just had at it, like we did with the Japanese and Germans, we would have finished this dog and pony show by now.
But I digress...
Don't forget that the Chinese make lots of ARs, mags and 5.56 ammo, so actually I don't foresee too many supply issues.
Fighting insurgents is different from fighting nation-states.
We won Iraq like we did any other nation-state. Unfortunately, in doing so, we overthrew the dude who prevented this Sunni and Shiite civil war.
Now we have dudes who want to re-establish the caliphate fighting dudes who are waiting for the twelfth imam to reappear with Jesus to save humanity.
Ars are rather simple to manufacture With the cnc machining and any desired quality.
Tagged for later.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Shit, I had yellow-box Norinco 5.56mm in the early 90's (dating myself of course).
The handguards on that ChiCom M4gery actually look ergonomic.
I believe Canada gets some of the ChiCom M4geries imported.
3ACR_Scout
06-17-14, 21:46
Photos and video from northern Iraq show ISIS fighters demonstrating better weapons discipline (e.g. safeties on, fingers out of trigger wells) and using better load-bearing gear than I've seen in the past. They clearly have some training and standards that shouldn't be underestimated, likely coming from Chechen and other "imported" fighters.
Someone pointed out on LF that there are some other (probably captured) weapons out there aside from U.S.-provided Iraqi M16s and M4s:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/15/article-2658286-1EC9268A00000578-541_634x347.jpg
Dave
kaltesherz
06-17-14, 22:00
Never underestimate the enemy.
800 retards can't defeat 30-40k that easily (yes, even if they're the IA). These guys are motivated, trained, and most are seasoned combat vets from Syria.
I'm sure they captured a shitload of M16A2s and M4s, plus massive amounts of 5.56 and mags to boot. They'll last a very very long time, consider there's still M16A1's in Laos and Cambodia still ticking and the jungle is much worse on weapons than the ME. Also remember all that M855 they just found is non corrosive, unlike most 7.62 out there. So those weapons are here to stay.
Those 1151's on the other hand... I'm sure they captured them deadlined.
PS- If you think they're bad now, wait till they figure out how to close ejection ports!
They're going to be around for a long long time.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1615/7987455/15005979/370634271.jpg
They're going to be around for a long long time.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1615/7987455/15005979/370634271.jpg
Wow, I wonder how well it functions?
kaltesherz
06-17-14, 23:06
Wow, I wonder how well it functions?
Well I doubt he's carrying it for looks...
China North Industries Corporation. They are responsible for a variety of reproduction weapons. Their military repro's haven't been legally imported into the US since '93 and all their products have been blocked from importation since '03.
Thanks. learn something new everyday.
Holy Crap, is that a Vltor Receiver? Look at the QD Sling Mount, it's tied into the Receiver Endplate, like a Vltor Sling Mount.
26640
26643
Photos and video from northern Iraq show ISIS fighters demonstrating better weapons discipline (e.g. safeties on, fingers out of trigger wells) and using better load-bearing gear than I've seen in the past. They clearly have some training and standards that shouldn't be underestimated, likely coming from Chechen and other "imported" fighters.
Someone pointed out on LF that there are some other (probably captured) weapons out there aside from U.S.-provided Iraqi M16s and M4s:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/15/article-2658286-1EC9268A00000578-541_634x347.jpg
Dave
China North Industries Corporation. They are responsible for a variety of reproduction weapons.
Those are cheapest ARs to buy in Poland. Some pictures here: http://bron.iweb.pl/viewtopic.php?t=87325&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1110.
So far no serious problems, but owners rather do not run them hard.
Eurodriver
06-18-14, 07:24
Believe it or not, alot of these jihadists are real warriors. When I was in Afghanistan their AKs where always very clean, and I frequently observed them cleaning their rifles first thing after they woke up in the morning. Not a rag tag group of retards like most people imagine. After years of conflict Darwin's laws of combat have only left the good insurgents alive.
This. It annoys the shit out of me when I hear the "They're just a bunch of savages living in caves." talk. They are savages, and they do live in caves. But that is not "just" what they "are".
Many people see images like the following and conclude the entire region is full of a bunch of stupid idiots. But as most of us know, one need not look further than any gun range in the United States to see what kind of Fudd-induced stupidity shows up when guns are involved. The ME is no different.
http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20140111_MAP001_0.jpg
The image of the old guy screaming while shooting his 40 year old AK47 into the air, scope too far forward and Grip-Pod extended is the most common portrayal of these guys because the dramatic images get shown most often by the media. It might be easy to look at that from our perspective and go "I'd take that guy out from a mile away." The 8000+ US troops KIA since 9/11 would disagree.
Shakir Wahiyib - He's the real deal, and look what weapons his boys have.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/wahid_2942025b.jpg
Thanks for the insight, very interesting.
I hope they have Springco springs in those guns. It's their only hope!
Photos and video from northern Iraq show ISIS fighters demonstrating better weapons discipline (e.g. safeties on, fingers out of trigger wells) and using better load-bearing gear than I've seen in the past. They clearly have some training and standards that shouldn't be underestimated, likely coming from Chechen and other "imported" fighters.
Someone pointed out on LF that there are some other (probably captured) weapons out there aside from U.S.-provided Iraqi M16s and M4s:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/15/article-2658286-1EC9268A00000578-541_634x347.jpg
Dave
Interestingly that is not a Colt, or Norinco. It is most definitely a SIG AR, which I could imagine there are not a ton of, especially in the sand box. Could they have been Contractors guns? I have no idea why the Mil would use them.
The QD sockets on the lower receiver are very non standard and caught my eye immediately.
Here is a link to Sigs sight where you can see both the lower receiver with QD and rail.
https://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sigm400-srp-swat.aspx
Holy Crap, is that a Vltor Receiver? Look at the QD Sling Mount, it's tied into the Receiver Endplate, like a Vltor Sling Mount.
I thought so at first, but no oversized mag release. Its a Sig, Sig rail too
4DAIVI PAI2K5
06-18-14, 09:09
With an Aimpoint on a gooseneck... on a detachable carry handle...
SilverBullet432
06-18-14, 09:29
Photos and video from northern Iraq show ISIS fighters demonstrating better weapons discipline (e.g. safeties on, fingers out of trigger wells) and using better load-bearing gear than I've seen in the past. They clearly have some training and standards that shouldn't be underestimated, likely coming from Chechen and other "imported" fighters.
Someone pointed out on LF that there are some other (probably captured) weapons out there aside from U.S.-provided Iraqi M16s and M4s:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/15/article-2658286-1EC9268A00000578-541_634x347.jpg
Dave
Is that an Aimpoint? :eek:
crusader377
06-18-14, 09:35
Interestingly that is not a Colt, or Norinco. It is most definitely a SIG AR, which I could imagine there are not a ton of, especially in the sand box. Could they have been Contractors guns? I have no idea why the Mil would use them.
The QD sockets on the lower receiver are very non standard and caught my eye immediately.
Here is a link to Sigs sight where you can see both the lower receiver with QD and rail.
https://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sigm400-srp-swat.aspx
I don't know if we will ever know where the ISIS got the Sigs, yes it could be a contractor gun but it could also have been captured from Iraqi military or police forces. Remember most of the middle east militaries are divided into many different and often competing fiefdoms and often each of these will purchase their own weapons. It is not like the U.S. or western European nations which will have a pool of money and standardize on one or maybe two rifles. In the ME, these pools of money might go to a dozen different groups and they will each make their purchases.
Another thought is it could have been a ISIS gun from the Syrian civil war purchased by some of our so called allies in the region (Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, etc..).
It also could have been supplied by the CIA or other American assets to arm supposedly more moderate Syrian groups and either traded, stolen, given, or captured from there by the ISIS.
Guns-up.50
06-18-14, 09:48
Photos and video from northern Iraq show ISIS fighters demonstrating better weapons discipline (e.g. safeties on, fingers out of trigger wells) and using better load-bearing gear than I've seen in the past. They clearly have some training and standards that shouldn't be underestimated, likely coming from Chechen and other "imported" fighters.
Someone pointed out on LF that there are some other (probably captured) weapons out there aside from U.S.-provided Iraqi M16s and M4s:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/15/article-2658286-1EC9268A00000578-541_634x347.jpg
Dave
This is because we trained them..
justin_247
06-18-14, 10:02
I don't know why this is so surprising to so many people. Norinco produces all kinds of M-4 and M-16 variants, and a few Gulf states have been conducting large weapons purchases from the Chinese and funneling them to insurgents in Syria. ISIS also has access to a slew of weapons being smuggled out of Iraq by corrupt members of the Iraqi security apparatus, if you can call it that, much of which is composed of weapons that we transferred to the Iraqi army before we left. And, of course, they have probably captured a ton from retreating Iraqi units.
Al Qaeda affiliated units had access to large numbers of these weapons for quite some time. There is actually a video from 2010 or 2011 of an Al Qaeda operation where they dressed up exactly like Iraqi special operations forces, cleanly shaven, with proper uniforms, and correct equipment, to include M-9s and M-4s, and then used seized military vehicles to impersonate their way into Iraqi barracks, where they executed several dozen members of the Iraqi army.
As far as the Shi'ites go, Iranian special operations units, especially the Pasdaran ones, have access to M-4s and M-16s and have so for some time. They are many photos that can be found via Google of them marching in parades carrying them at port arms. They also provide these weapons to their allies in the region, such as Hezbollah. There is also some evidence that Hezbollah may have acquired some of their M-16s and M-4s from Palestinian Authority officials, which we supplied back in the 1990s and early-to-mid 2000s.
With an Aimpoint on a gooseneck... on a detachable carry handle...
Very smart if he did not have a folding BUIS at his disposal. With this set up he has it co witnessed with fixed sights, I doubt this fact is lost on him. Seemingly his shit is laced pretty tight. As many have said here, he looks to be trained by us, and effectively so.
Breacher 217
06-18-14, 12:37
Isn't that a fake Comp M4? The Aimpoint lettering is bright white.
Doc Safari
06-18-14, 13:06
Shakir Wahiyib - He's the real deal, and look what weapons his boys have.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/wahid_2942025b.jpg
LOL. I thought we were looking at "Abe Lincoln: Shi'ite Hunter."
:lol:
Just the look in his eye tells you he's not effing kidding. That guy has had enough training and/or experience to not be afraid of much.
This. It annoys the shit out of me when I hear the "They're just a bunch of savages living in caves." talk. They are savages, and they do live in caves. But that is not "just" what they "are".
Many people see images like the following and conclude the entire region is full of a bunch of stupid idiots. But as most of us know, one need not look further than any gun range in the United States to see what kind of Fudd-induced stupidity shows up when guns are involved. The ME is no different.
http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20140111_MAP001_0.jpg
The image of the old guy screaming while shooting his 40 year old AK47 into the air, scope too far forward and Grip-Pod extended is the most common portrayal of these guys because the dramatic images get shown most often by the media. It might be easy to look at that from our perspective and go "I'd take that guy out from a mile away." The 8000+ US troops KIA since 9/11 would disagree.
Shakir Wahiyib - He's the real deal, and look what weapons his boys have.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/wahid_2942025b.jpg
the idea that people who live in caves are weak is a little bit stupid.
people who live in caves are hard, accustomed to living hard lives and surviving.
the line from generation kill comes to mind: "sleeping on the ground and living on rice…these are hard men. You guys whine if your MRE doesn’t come with pop-tarts"
I don't know if we will ever know where the ISIS got the Sigs, yes it could be a contractor gun but it could also have been captured from Iraqi military or police forces. Remember most of the middle east militaries are divided into many different and often competing fiefdoms and often each of these will purchase their own weapons. It is not like the U.S. or western European nations which will have a pool of money and standardize on one or maybe two rifles. In the ME, these pools of money might go to a dozen different groups and they will each make their purchases.
Another thought is it could have been a ISIS gun from the Syrian civil war purchased by some of our so called allies in the region (Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, etc..).
It also could have been supplied by the CIA or other American assets to arm supposedly more moderate Syrian groups and either traded, stolen, given, or captured from there by the ISIS.
I can't imagine sig selling to any of these entities though...
FireandFlames
06-18-14, 17:06
the idea that people who live in caves are weak is a little bit stupid.
people who live in caves are hard, accustomed to living hard lives and surviving.
the line from generation kill comes to mind: "sleeping on the ground and living on rice…these are hard men. You guys whine if your MRE doesn’t come with pop-tarts"
Have you ever got a MRE without a pop tart or poundcake? Shit sucks man, you try fighting on a stomach full of vegetable ratatouille and mre fried rice.
Fighting insurgents is different from fighting nation-states.
We won Iraq like we did any other nation-state. Unfortunately, in doing so, we overthrew the dude who prevented this Sunni and Shiite civil war.
Now we have dudes who want to re-establish the caliphate fighting dudes who are waiting for the twelfth imam to reappear with Jesus to save humanity.
These turdburgling chodaphiles are definitely not to be underestimated. But they are savages, nontheless.
I still stand by the statement that this could be won if we didn't fight one handed, blind-folded and with our own media just chomping at the bit to burn us for he slightest misstep.
The distinction between insurgencies and nation-states is not as clear as it seems.
The fact is that the insurgencies we are currently dealing with rely on supplies, training, funding, shelter and ideology from other ..... nation states.
Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran at the top of the ****ing list, not to mention numerous other shit-disturbers.
If we started stomping on these mother****ers and stopped funding our enemies, maybe we could start talking victory, or at the least, anything other than defeat.
Instead of playing Whack-A-Mole, let's get to the root of the problem.
crusader377
06-18-14, 22:58
I can't imagine sig selling to any of these entities though...
I don't see why not. The government of Saudi Arabia or one of the Gulf States are legit and SIG would have no legal problems selling to them or the Iraqi Army or Security/Police forces. Once in the hands of the customer, SIG or any other mfg. has little control what they do with the weapons.
Unintended consequences are real. It happens a lot. Enemy of my enemy is my friend is a very short term game.
Could you imagine if something awful like a U.S. supplied aircraft gets used in retaliation or a kamikaze event.
We're going to look back some day, and the consensus will be that lack of SOFA was the wrong call.
Makes me sad that some my friends have spilled blood in that hell hole. And yet, We'll probably still have to go back.
All those years of work... only to have them better armed, experienced and trained.
Wouldn't that be something if a lot of the Sunnis the coalition trained end up fighting on the other side in round two.
Ww2 required nuclear weapons to get the Japanese to quit, because they wouldn't. Ever. They would fight till the last man.
Fear is the ultimate weapon. It messes with you even in your sleep. My guess is that the isis boys were able to up root two Iraqi divisions because isis is known for obscene brutality. Even after the fight is over. Cut off heads, take no prisoners. I watched part 4 of clang the swords, and had to sit and process it afterwards. It's top of the line violence. They even killed the guys kid in the one Scene. And it's not "got ya @$&!#“. It's were going to sit here and taunt you, mind f you, and then cut your head off.
I wonder how many guns like the m2and mini gun are in isis hands now?
I don't see why not. The government of Saudi Arabia or one of the Gulf States are legit and SIG would have no legal problems selling to them or the Iraqi Army or Security/Police forces. Once in the hands of the customer, SIG or any other mfg. has little control what they do with the weapons.
I wonder how easy it is to find out if this happened.
crusader377
06-18-14, 23:56
I wonder how easy it is to find out if this happened.
It probably would be pretty difficult because what ever weapons that the ISIS are using probably passed through multiple hands before they received them creating plausible deniability. Personally, I think the big issue is not small arms but how much equipment did the ISIS capable from the Iraqi army particularly MANPADs like the Stinger or other advanced weaponry. We gave the Iraqis way too much advanced hardware and I fear with events in Iraq we had an indirect hand in creating a far more powerful terrorist group than AQ ever was.
kaltesherz
06-19-14, 00:43
Fear is the ultimate weapon. It messes with you even in your sleep. My guess is that the isis boys were able to up root two Iraqi divisions because isis is known for obscene brutality. Even after the fight is over. Cut off heads, take no prisoners. I watched part 4 of clang the swords, and had to sit and process it afterwards. It's top of the line violence. They even killed the guys kid in the one Scene. And it's not "got ya @$&!#“. It's were going to sit here and taunt you, mind f you, and then cut your head off.
THIS. We used to destroy our enemies. Now we give them Humanitarian Assistance and apologize if we might have offended them.
A great man once said "Crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women"
pentosinjunkie
06-19-14, 01:51
I can't imagine sig selling to any of these entities though...
Easy chance some foreign entity sent their embassy peeps to buy rifles from a US distributor or gunshop on a DSP-5...then somehow it ended up here, intentionally or otherwise.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
We used to destroy our enemies. Now we give them Humanitarian Assistance and apologize if we might have offended them.
Liberalism is an extremely dangerous, and soon to be deadly, mental disorder.
Thanks for the responses. I've learned some new things. It looks as though the AR will remain viable, even in the hands of these throwbacks to the 7th century, as long as they have ammo. The best we can hope for is that they lose some small parts in the sand during disassembly.
Good thread guys. Lot's of good insight for an old fart like me.
Unintended consequences are real. It happens a lot. Enemy of my enemy is my friend is a very short term game.
All of this has happened before, and will happen again... again... again...
They're going to be around for a long long time.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1615/7987455/15005979/370634271.jpg
This is a really cool picture. I would love to see more of the rifle and history. A testimate to the genius of the system indeed.
Seeing the post about stingers....makes me wonder what the he'll else they got?
Weapons like the javelin and m107, mk 19 you know legit force multiplier hardware.
Anyone know if that's the case?
leibermuster
06-19-14, 23:17
Were arming them and training them all the time. CF is sending our boys to Jordan to train them and then again in Africa already on CBC, how long till they turn on the other side? With Saudi money they can get anything almost.
They'll be around for a long time.
If you look at the weapons used by guerrilla forces the world over you'll see a history of what nations have operated in/around those areas in the past. SE Asia is chock full of M16 variants, for example.
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2011/4/10/201141073235186360_20.jpg
http://www.kazeo.com/sites/fr/photos/196/les-deboires-d-un-enfant-soldat_1967051-L.jpg
http://www.interaksyon.com/assets/images/articles/interphoto_1313588156.jpg
http://www.hopeforthenations.com/client-data/image-ugc/3794_main.jpg
and these are all from regions with extremely wet climates. These weapons will be in the locality for a long time to come. Then of course, there's weapons smuggling which group like ISIS are very good at.
MorphCross
06-20-14, 00:27
They'll be around for a long time.
If you look at the weapons used by guerrilla forces the world over you'll see a history of what nations have operated in/around those areas in the past. SE Asia is chock full of M16 variants, for example.
http://www.kazeo.com/sites/fr/photos/196/les-deboires-d-un-enfant-soldat_1967051-L.jpg
http://www.hopeforthenations.com/client-data/image-ugc/3794_main.jpg
and these are all from regions with extremely wet climates. These weapons will be in the locality for a long time to come. Then of course, there's weapons smuggling which group like ISIS are very good at.
As backward as the use of child soldiers is to me, I have to admit the SBR equipment looks very functional and practical. *Shakes Head* I do have to wonder how old and worn out the bores or throats on those rifles are.
MountainRaven
06-20-14, 00:28
Ww2 required nuclear weapons to get the Japanese to quit, because they wouldn't. Ever. They would fight till the last man.
LeMay's fire bombing was more effective at destroying Japanese cities (and much more horrifying - the atomic bombings are probably larger in the American psyche than the Japanese, which has a centuries-old pathological fear of cities and villages burning in firestorms), Soviet-occupied Germany was being turned into a communist haven, and Japanese troops in Manchukuo - the Emperor's best and brightest - were steamrolled in under a month by Soviet troops fresh from routing the Wehrmacht and SS. VJ Day happened when we and the Japanese both agreed that we'd rather see Japan occupied by the United States than by the Soviet Union: The only thing more hated than Americans were communists and Soviets especially. (Japan having joined the Anti-Comintern Pact, dba the Axis, more out of a hatred of communism and the Soviet Union than out of some admiration for the Aryan ideal, anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism, or love of German- and Italian-style fascism.)
In fact, many Japanese who have been critical of the United States in the post-war era haven't just lambasted us for letting Japanese war criminals off the hook lightly, but for taking up Japan's anti-communist torch in the Far East and continuing to prosecute the sorts of wars the Japanese had been fighting in the Far East since the 1930s. (Of course, there are other Japanese who are critical of the US simply because we beat them and they tend to hog the limelight, because we prefer to be aghast that anyone could think that we're the bad guy for beating them fair and square, but cannot stand to see what horrors we have wrought on some third party.) But I digress.
Point being, the nukes weren't for the Japanese. It was - like the firebombing of Dresden - for the benefit of Uncle Jo (Stalin).
ETA: More on topic, isn't the new Iranian wunderwaffe, the KH2002, a 5.56mm DI, AR-15-inspired bullpup?
LeMay's fire bombing was more effective at destroying Japanese cities (and much more horrifying - the atomic bombings are probably larger in the American psyche than the Japanese, which has a centuries-old pathological fear of cities and villages burning in firestorms), Soviet-occupied Germany was being turned into a communist haven, and Japanese troops in Manchukuo - the Emperor's best and brightest - were steamrolled in under a month by Soviet troops fresh from routing the Wehrmacht and SS. VJ Day happened when we and the Japanese both agreed that we'd rather see Japan occupied by the United States than by the Soviet Union: The only thing more hated than Americans were communists and Soviets especially. (Japan having joined the Anti-Comintern Pact, dba the Axis, more out of a hatred of communism and the Soviet Union than out of some admiration for the Aryan ideal, anti-Zionism/anti-Semitism, or love of German- and Italian-style fascism.)
In fact, many Japanese who have been critical of the United States in the post-war era haven't just lambasted us for letting Japanese war criminals off the hook lightly, but for taking up Japan's anti-communist torch in the Far East and continuing to prosecute the sorts of wars the Japanese had been fighting in the Far East since the 1930s. (Of course, there are other Japanese who are critical of the US simply because we beat them and they tend to hog the limelight, because we prefer to be aghast that anyone could think that we're the bad guy for beating them fair and square, but cannot stand to see what horrors we have wrought on some third party.) But I digress.
Point being, the nukes weren't for the Japanese. It was - like the firebombing of Dresden - for the benefit of Uncle Jo (Stalin).
ETA: More on topic, isn't the new Iranian wunderwaffe, the KH2002, a 5.56mm DI, AR-15-inspired bullpup?
interesting. I've never officially studied history of warfare, but that makes sense. Thanks.
THIS. We used to destroy our enemies. Now we give them Humanitarian Assistance and apologize if we might have offended them.
A great man once said "Crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women"
The actual quote was taken from Genghis Khan, and I find the original much better:
“The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and daughters.”
― Genghis Khan
As backward as the use of child soldiers is to me, I have to admit the SBR equipment looks very functional and practical. *Shakes Head* I do have to wonder how old and worn out the bores or throats on those rifles are.
I suppose if the question was asked, 'what rifle would be best suited for a child soldier?' an XM177 wouldn't be at the bottom of the list, no. I don't imagine the bores are pristine at this point but I doubt any of those kids hold a sniper role either.
Seeing the post about stingers....makes me wonder what the he'll else they got?
Weapons like the javelin and m107, mk 19 you know legit force multiplier hardware.
Anyone know if that's the case?
Based on photo and video evidence posted around the web, ISIS has definitely acquired up-armored humvees, M2HB's, M136 (AT-4) rockets, Soviet manufactured MANPAD missiles, T-55 / Type 59 tanks, MTLB armored personnel carriers, and at least a battery of M198 155mm howitzers.
This is in addition to the hardware already captured from Assad's military in Syria.
Very smart if he did not have a folding BUIS at his disposal. With this set up he has it co witnessed with fixed sights, I doubt this fact is lost on him. Seemingly his shit is laced pretty tight. As many have said here, he looks to be trained by us, and effectively so.
What he said.. First I thought why not remove the carry handle and use the Aimpoint only, then I realized the dude probably cant pop down to the local electronics store and pickup batteries.. Makes sense to retain the carry handle.
Based on photo and video evidence posted around the web, ISIS has definitely acquired up-armored humvees, M2HB's, M136 (AT-4) rockets, Soviet manufactured MANPAD missiles, T-55 / Type 59 tanks, MTLB armored personnel carriers, and at least a battery of M198 155mm howitzers.
This is in addition to the hardware already captured from Assad's military in Syria.
lovely.... I'm sure every humvee is sporting a mah deuce also.
3ACR_Scout
06-20-14, 23:33
Makes sense to retain the carry handle.
I remember waaay back in the day, before the Army started issuing a BUIS to go with our optics, I would occasionally see someone with their carrying handle attached to one of the handguard rails, both to prevent losing it and to have it as a backup in case the optic when down. That seems like a long time ago, and would look crazy if you saw it today.
Dave
I remember waaay back in the day, before the Army started issuing a BUIS to go with our optics, I would occasionally see someone with their carrying handle attached to one of the handguard rails, both to prevent losing it and to have it as a backup in case the optic when down. That seems like a long time ago, and would look crazy if you saw it today.
Dave
There's a picture of me someplace with that exact same setup, ha!
5.56Spartan
06-21-14, 09:48
Based on photo and video evidence posted around the web, ISIS has definitely acquired up-armored humvees, M2HB's, M136 (AT-4) rockets, Soviet manufactured MANPAD missiles, T-55 / Type 59 tanks, MTLB armored personnel carriers, and at least a battery of M198 155mm howitzers.
This is in addition to the hardware already captured from Assad's military in Syria.
26716
Maybe Michelle should go talk to them? Her asking please might do the trick.
I remember waaay back in the day, before the Army started issuing a BUIS to go with our optics, I would occasionally see someone with their carrying handle attached to one of the handguard rails, both to prevent losing it and to have it as a backup in case the optic when down. That seems like a long time ago, and would look crazy if you saw it today.
Dave
Couple pictures of my platoon in 03 from the book "21 Days to Baghdad". We were mostly sporting Aimpoints on carry handle mounts on the M16A4s. Only the PL and PS had M4s at that time.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/iraq037.jpg
My squad leader. Im on the SAW
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/iraq032.jpg
My squad leader escorting a couple Iraqi Army prisoners we took at Talil.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm229/killerchase2000/Iraq%202003/iraq035.jpg
turnburglar
06-21-14, 21:00
Who cares about what ARs they captured. Some news outlets are claiming they took a chem warfare factory. That's far worse then anything that uses gun powder.
kaltesherz
06-21-14, 23:39
Who cares about what ARs they captured. Some news outlets are claiming they took a chem warfare factory. That's far worse then anything that uses gun powder.
Right... the media. You know, those objective guys that only report the facts.
Remember how we didn't find those large amounts of WMDs? Do you really think US sponsored Iraq then built a WMD factory? Even if they did they wouldn't have the know how to produce them. This is a non-issue.
3ACR_Scout
06-21-14, 23:42
Who cares about what ARs they captured. Some news outlets are claiming they took a chem warfare factory. That's far worse then anything that uses gun powder.
Let's slow down and think about that one for a minute. We spent almost a decade in Iraq, and no chemical weapons were found after the initial invasion or in the years following when we had troops all over the country. I'm pretty confident the Iraqi government hadn't suddenly developed chemical weapons in the couple of years since we left. So... the media is referring to one of the defunct sites were Saddam developed chemical weapons several decades ago that the UN inspection teams visited a dozen times or so. If they're lucky, ISIS might find some trace chemical residue at the site that hopefully will get some of them sick.
Dave
The chemical weapons are known and have been for a while. much it was in bunkers that were sealed. The reason was quite simple. It was too dangerous to move it or destroy it. That means if these chuckleheads try anything, it will almost certainly benefit us.
wildcard600
06-22-14, 01:21
The chemical weapons are known and have been for a while. much it was in bunkers that were sealed. The reason was quite simple. It was too dangerous to move it or destroy it. That means if these chuckleheads try anything, it will almost certainly benefit us.
Here hoping that they try REALLY hard to get a couple of those things open.
KalashniKEV
06-22-14, 08:22
The chemical weapons are known and have been for a while. much it was in bunkers that were sealed. The reason was quite simple. It was too dangerous to move it or destroy it. That means if these chuckleheads try anything, it will almost certainly benefit us.
There are 2 x sealed magazines at the al Muthanna Chemical Complex. Everything else is just junk.
I would love to see them go at it with jackhammer, or better yet explosives to crack them.
We guarded it on rotation, but I never went there.
Um... Doesnt Syria have chem weapons? Were the media reports referring to them capturing Iraqi, or Syrian, chem weapon plants?
It all goes back to the Candy Asses that drew the line in Korea, pulled out of Viet-Nam and other "POLICE" actions we got involved in. They should have went in and stomped their sht in the ground period. If you're only going to do it half assed with one hand tied you should stay out of it. And get the news media out of it.
LOL. I thought we were looking at "Abe Lincoln: Shi'ite Hunter."
:lol:
Just the look in his eye tells you he's not effing kidding. That guy has had enough training and/or experience to not be afraid of much.
This guy is no joke. If you are going to claim sunni when crossing their path you beter be ready t prove it.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/wahid_2942025b.jpg[/QUOTE]
KalashniKEV
06-23-14, 10:56
Um... Doesnt Syria have chem weapons? Were the media reports referring to them capturing Iraqi, or Syrian, chem weapon plants?
The final 8% of the declared stockpile in Syria was taken off shore for destruction last weekend.
Also, this whole story with the chemical weapons is BS. Worldnetdaily doesn't even qualify as the "media."
3ACR_Scout
06-23-14, 11:55
Also, this whole story with the chemical weapons is BS. Worldnetdaily doesn't even qualify as the "media."
CNN has been covering the story too but describes the materials as remnants of damaged and unserviceable munitions that have been sealed in bunkers for years (I stand corrected on the point that nothing was found there):
http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/20/isis-takes-chemical-weapons-complex/
Dave
If there were any real chemical weapons the previous administration would have paraded them around.
Had the same thing been found back then most likely the media and everyone else would be talking about what an assclown Bush is and how this is proof Iraq didn't have real useable WMD. Hell I bet that exact story about this exact place was aired in 2004.
KalashniKEV
06-23-14, 12:32
CNN has been covering the story too but describes the materials as remnants of damaged and unserviceable munitions that have been sealed in bunkers for years (I stand corrected on the pint that nothing was found there):
http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/20/isis-takes-chemical-weapons-complex/
Dave
The first I read about it was from the typical gun forum Fear Junkie, who was peeing in his pants over it and posted the link from WND.
CNN Blogs doesn't really count as "coverage."
(Neither does CNN iReport)
I knew they had to be talking about al Muthanna. That place has been rotting since 1991 when they told Saddam he couldn't use it anymore.
It's nothing more than a junk pile.
3ACR_Scout
06-23-14, 13:15
CNN Blogs doesn't really count as "coverage."
(Neither does CNN iReport)
Ok, now that's just getting silly. That was the first CNN link that turned up in Google, which I used to find something quickly since I remembered several reports on it from CNN. Here's a "real" CNN report, if you prefer that:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/20/world/meast/iraq-crisis/?c=&page=0
ISIS takes old chemical facility
Fighting raged across Iraq. Iraqi security forces regained control of the Baiji oil refinery, the largest in Iraq, on Friday following a night of fighting, Iraqi security officials in Samarra told CNN.
Iraqiya State TV reported that Iraqi security forces killed an undisclosed number of ISIS fighters.
Also on Thursday, ISIS militants took control of a facility that Saddam Hussein once used to produce and store chemical weapons.
But the State Department doubts that the Al Muthanna complex contains any material of "military value."
"The materials in the bunkers, which date from the 1980s, are of little military value and would be very difficult to safely move," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Thursday.
Dave
I would bet the CIA arms and trained a good percent of them. Provided arms munitions and other Arabs chipped in as well. Good ole Saddam ,he was able to keep the natives subdued.
They did recover some chemical weapons in Iraq during the Bush Admin. The media chose to mostly ignore it: http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf
They did recover some chemical weapons in Iraq during the Bush Admin. The media chose to mostly ignore it: http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf
Most people with half a brain realize our media isn't our friend.
ClearedHot
06-27-14, 04:59
Looks like they got some complete SOPMOD kitted M4's...
http://i.imgur.com/1HDkUdi.jpg
ClearedHot
06-27-14, 05:05
Mahdi Army militia member with an interesting AR. Notice the PEQ-2.
http://abload.de/img/iraq108sjsw6.jpg
I am just really curious as to how many of these people were trained by the MiTT's like the one I was part of where we embedded with the Iraqi Army and taught them US style tactics? We were joking then that we need to only teach them the very basics so they don't come back to bite us one day. Not so funny now.
Mahdi Army militia member with an interesting AR. Notice the PEQ-2.
Interesting indeed. Looks like an M16A4 with some non-issue parts. If you magnify the photo and focus on the lower, it's definitely a Colt.
ETA: The pic of the guy with the M4 is particularly irritating... Bastard even has Pmags.
kaltesherz
06-27-14, 09:29
Looks like they got some complete SOPMOD kitted M4's...
http://i.imgur.com/1HDkUdi.jpg
Are we sure these guys are ISIS and not the "good guys"? Guy with the PSL looks clean shaven and they're both wearing matching kit. They just look a lot different than ISIS regulars...
And an Elcan. Wonder if they have any NODs? That would effing suck.
I haven't seen any pics of isil rocking us made sniper/sapr gear. Anyone seen our have pictures of this?
What about radios? Imaging goods gear, good radios, good training. This just gets better and better.
Looks like they got some complete SOPMOD kitted M4's...
http://i.imgur.com/1HDkUdi.jpg
Dude's kitted-out. SOPMOD M4 w/Elcan, PMAGs, nice carrier, GLOCK 17/19.....are these supposed to be bad guys or good guys?
And the dude on the right is wearing a pretty nice dress shirt.....Deney Terrio would be jealous.
justin_247
06-27-14, 10:15
Are we sure these guys are ISIS and not the "good guys"? Guy with the PSL looks clean shaven and they're both wearing matching kit. They just look a lot different than ISIS regulars...
There are plenty of Ba'athists working with ISIS, so don't rule them out here.
There are plenty of Ba'athists working with ISIS, so don't rule them out here.
Source?
I am given to understand that Baathists are basically socialists, and not muslim extremists.
justin_247
06-27-14, 12:58
Source?
I am given to understand that Baathists are basically socialists, and not muslim extremists.
Uh, no, Ba'athism is primarily a heavily fragmented Arab pan-nationalist ideology who derives its ideas and policies from a myriad of different, and sometimes conflicting, sources. That's about as general as you can get to defining them. They have no problems aligning themselves with all kinds of folks who may be opposed to them when its militarily or politically expedient.
With that in mind, I direct your attention to Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri. He currently heads up a large fragment of the Iraqi Ba'ath Party, also known as the Men of the Naqshbandi Order (JRTN). It forms much of the leadership component of the Supreme Command for Jihad and Liberation, which is composed of a huge number of militias all with differing agendas.
This grouping has aligned themselves with ISIS.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-crisis-saddam-husseins-generals-fighting-jihadist-isis-insurgency-1452365
Fighting insurgents is different from fighting nation-states.
We won Iraq like we did any other nation-state. Unfortunately, in doing so, we overthrew the dude who prevented this Sunni and Shiite civil war.
Now we have dudes who want to re-establish the caliphate fighting dudes who are waiting for the twelfth imam to reappear with Jesus to save humanity.
26818
Assad is running sorties. The Israeli's are pledging to help. This is either going to be the greatest transcendence of of nations and the cause of the greater good, or the punt kick off the ww3. I really hope it's the first one.
All it takes is some stupid ass friendly fire incident to escalate this into an extremely bad situation.
KalashniKEV
06-27-14, 16:28
Are we sure these guys are ISIS and not the "good guys"?
As already pointed out, this conflict is not "ISIS vs. the Iraqi Government."
ISIS is spearheading a Sunni coalition with the goal of separating from Maliki's corrupt Shi'ite regime.
Many of the towns they "conquered" welcomed them with a parade. A lot of the IA that threw down their weapons and uniforms in flight have trickled back in and are taking denunciation oaths for their time served under the New Iraqi Flag.
The Kurds have pushed the Green Line south of Kirkuk, and are obviously hoping more for fracture than unity.
I am just really curious as to how many of these people were trained by the MiTT's like the one I was part of...
I partnered with a Sunni, AQI infiltrated unit in '05-'06.
As that city was among the first to "fall," I can guarantee you right now that most of those soldiers are fighting with the Sunni coalition of tribes against the Maliki regime.
(Probably right next to Safwa forces/SOI that bled themselves out expelling AQI during those same years)
I partnered with a Shia, JAM infiltrated unit in '08-'09.
I can also guarantee you that at least a chunk of those soldiers left the IA to go fight in the JAM.
(Probably all the best ones...)
As already pointed out, this conflict is not "ISIS vs. the Iraqi Government."
ISIS is spearheading a Sunni coalition with the goal of separating from Maliki's corrupt Shi'ite regime.
Many of the towns they "conquered" welcomed them with a parade. A lot of the IA that threw down their weapons and uniforms in flight have trickled back in and are taking denunciation oaths for their time served under the New Iraqi Flag.
The Kurds have pushed the Green Line south of Kirkuk, and are obviously hoping more for fracture than unity.
I partnered with a Sunni, AQI infiltrated unit in '05-'06.
As that city was among the first to "fall," I can guarantee you right now that most of those soldiers are fighting with the Sunni coalition of tribes against the Maliki regime.
(Probably right next to Safwa forces/SOI that bled themselves out expelling AQI during those same years)
I partnered with a Shia, JAM infiltrated unit in '08-'09.
I can also guarantee you that at least a chunk of those soldiers left the IA to go fight in the JAM.
(Probably all the best ones...)
Yep that's probably exactly what happened
And an Elcan. Wonder if they have any NODs? That would effing suck.
If they have PEQ2's I bet they have NODs. I know that when I was in Iraq in 08/09 IA were getting PVS7's. Whats funny is that what ever SFG is being sent over there is probably going to be fighting people who are better trained, equipped and organized than who we were fighting back in 08. lol what did we think they were doing in the 2 years after we left, guess we know why things were so smooth when we left in 2011.
KalashniKEV
06-27-14, 19:16
Whats funny is that what ever SFG is being sent over there is probably going to be fighting...
I'll bet they don't even leave the wire.
The Maliki regime is a lost cause. He chose to rule in a corrupt and sectarian fashion specifically because he thought he could spit in the Sunnis faces every day, massacre them in the streets with their protest banners, and if they ever tried to strike back that we would bail him out.
Well now guess what? We're not doing it.
Guess what else? A week after Sistani issued his "grab your gun and get in the street" fatwa to the Shi'ite militia, he is calling for a new Iraqi government "with broad support" within the next four days.
Ma'aslaama, shitbag.
http://media.cagle.com/180/2014/06/24/150155_600.jpg
Maybe they just got back from a Costa class ?
Maybe they just got back from a Costa class ?
Or perhaps instructors for the middle eastern branch.
Was reading somewhere that isis was getting trained by the mujahdeen, which were trained by the Chechens, which were probably trained by us.
Don't know if that's legi. Anyone really know?
. Maybe Someday we'll quit doing this proxy war thing and not have to deal with blow back.
Worst part of all, the next round is going to be so much worse. God help us if these sum bags really do some damage here in the conus.
more captured western equipment. UN vehicles are from the overrun Golan Heights position.
http://i.imgur.com/gFS7Zzg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CqES2gj.jpg
At least the UCP pattern will have a home after we finally drop it...
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=224269&d=1409006211
TOW missiles are becoming quite prolific back inside Syria, check out youtube...
http://i.imgur.com/RbMb0nQ.jpg
Trifecta! M-16, uparmored truck, and M-198 howitzer
http://abload.de/img/iraq202goj92.jpg
Was reading somewhere that isis was getting trained by the mujahdeen, which were trained by the Chechens, which were probably trained by us.
Don't know if that's legi. Anyone really know?
. Maybe Someday we'll quit doing this proxy war thing and not have to deal with blow back.
Worst part of all, the next round is going to be so much worse. God help us if these sum bags really do some damage here in the conus.
I though we were the ones who helped train and supply the mujahideen in the 80's. I think this go around will be much worse just due to them having decent equipment we left behind. The biggest threat of them attacking here is how big they are on social media. All it takes is the right moron already living here to be brainwashed enough to do something.
kaltesherz
09-01-14, 16:10
Was reading somewhere that isis was getting trained by the mujahdeen, which were trained by the Chechens, which were probably trained by us.
Don't know if that's legi. Anyone really know?
. Maybe Someday we'll quit doing this proxy war thing and not have to deal with blow back.
Worst part of all, the next round is going to be so much worse. God help us if these sum bags really do some damage here in the conus.
You've got it mixed up, we trained the Muj in the 80's, not the Chechens. In all reality, most of the original Muj we trained are long since gone- but the Chechens learned a bit in their conflict with the Russians (some from Muj but mostly the hard way) and should not be underestimated.
Thanks for the correction guys. Sorry, I did mix it up. Little tired. Me and the mrs just had a baby this afternoon.
Thanks for the correction guys. Sorry, I did mix it up. Little tired. Me and the mrs just had a baby this afternoon.
Congrats!
more captured western equipment. UN vehicles are from the overrun Golan Heights position.
http://i.imgur.com/gFS7Zzg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CqES2gj.jpg
At least the UCP pattern will have a home after we finally drop it...
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=224269&d=1409006211
TOW missiles are becoming quite prolific back inside Syria, check out youtube...
http://i.imgur.com/RbMb0nQ.jpg
Trifecta! M-16, uparmored truck, and M-198 howitzer
http://abload.de/img/iraq202goj92.jpg
Howitzers and TOW missiles.... this just gets better and better. That pretty well just leaves m107 rifles and javelin missiles left to show up in photos.
KalashniKEV
09-01-14, 22:29
Was reading somewhere that isis was getting trained by the mujahdeen...
ISIS is trained by the CIA clandestine service, or was.
There was a 7 week course in Qatar for pre-screened "FSA Fighters only."
One of the Syria based VICE reports had an interview with a fighter who received the training. He had a library of the Arabic FMs we used on MiTTs plus a duffel bag of gear- he pulled out a nice, new, USGI lensatic compass from the bag.
The problem with that approach is that Jabhat-al-Nusra, FSA, ISIS, and other groups all have interlocking memberships.
We should be doing everything we can to support the secular, suit wearing people in the region- up to and including re-issuing new chemical weapons so we can wag a finger at Asad when he actually uses them to save the world.
Fighting against Saddam made no sense.... ever.
Fight against Qaddafi in 2011 made no sense.
Fighting against al Asad is completely insane.
(Unless you're trying to justify a robust, overt American presence on the ground in those places)
kaltesherz
09-02-14, 00:33
ISIS is trained by the CIA clandestine service, or was.
There was a 7 week course in Qatar for pre-screened "FSA Fighters only."
One of the Syria based VICE reports had an interview with a fighter who received the training. He had a library of the Arabic FMs we used on MiTTs plus a duffel bag of gear- he pulled out a nice, new, USGI lensatic compass from the bag.
The problem with that approach is that Jabhat-al-Nusra, FSA, ISIS, and other groups all have interlocking memberships.
We should be doing everything we can to support the secular, suit wearing people in the region- up to and including re-issuing new chemical weapons so we can wag a finger at Asad when he actually uses them to save the world.
Fighting against Saddam made no sense.... ever.
Fight against Qaddafi in 2013 made no sense.
Fighting against al Asad is completely insane.
(Unless you're trying to justify a robust, overt American presence on the ground in those places)
I watched a PBS special on the CIA training process and came away with the complete opposite opinion on who they're instructing and arming. They seemed to have almost been too careful about vetting who they're training, and even then only trained a very small number at a time, to a point that it's laughable. The FSA fighters they were embedded with were spending more time fighting ISIS than Assad because they thought they were a bigger threat, with limited success.
Don't even get me started on invading Iraq and starting this quagmire...
I would venture that the recent air strikes there was to take out the captured equipment such as the armor and the artillery more so than the individuals. Even if that were not the case, aside from better small unit tactics and personal equipment and gear, I doubt any significant number of ISIS members know what to do with tanks, artillery, and aircraft. It is one thing to use those assets (I was arty, you don't just pull the string), another to use them effectively. That would take the kind of time and training only an actual established military can provide. Anyone who spent more time with these guys have input on that?
nation building, particularly in that region, is utterly pointless. God bless the kids who sacrificed so much over there, but the region is a lost cause (nothing new). Ive got no problem with mauling direct threats to our nation, but we gotta get our shit together and pull some of our proverbial irons out of the international fire.
KalashniKEV
09-02-14, 08:40
I watched a PBS special on the CIA training process and came away with the complete opposite opinion...
Perhaps the vetting is tough, I don't know what that part looks like, but the product of that training is rejoining insurgent formations with the goal of overthrowing the Asad regime. If they do their part and spread that training throughout the force, then that doesn't help regional stability or our national interest.
We should be bolstering the Asad regime and putting the squeeze on ISIS via proxy.
If I were President, I'd even let Iran pay for it and provide the air support in exchange for lifting the sanctions, loans for development, oil on favorable terms, and iPhones for everyone.
I doubt any significant number of ISIS members know what to do with tanks, artillery, and aircraft.
I'm sure there are guys in ISIS, particularly the JRTN guys, that have a lot of experience in a tank. There are 9th IA Division guys trained on M1 Abrams in their ranks.
Do they have the $$$, parts, ammunition, fuel, space, time, and people to break off a training set and conduct training?
Yes, Actually they do.
Did they do it?
Who knows?
It would be just as ignorant to think they cant quickly figure out how to use this equipment and establish some training as it is to dismiss them as cave dwelling savages. Prior military service is by my guess probably more common than in our society but either way, veterans arent too hard to find and information on alot of this stuff is available. Combine the two and you have a start. We dont exactly recruit potential rocket scientists to operate and maintain most of our "sophisticated" weapon systems
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