View Full Version : MOE handguard vs Rail
This is not a gear question per se but a function question related to the gear mentioned. I currently have a 14.5 M4 clone (Norc CQA) with a carbine length MOE handguard (given to me for free). This is my first AR and I'm fairly new to shooting and I'm wondering if the short handguard will be a detriment to my shooting as it affects my grip and stance. Will switching to a longer rail be a better way to go? Will stretching my support hand further out really affect my shooting that much or will either set up be viable and just be a matter of training?
I originally intended on buying a rail and was looking at a Troy Delta rail until I was handed this MOE. I am currently deciding whether it's worth it to spend the extra cash to pursue getting the rail.
It's really a matter of personal preference. You can maintain the same stance and grip with the shorter hand guards. The extension of the arm is practical though, it helps mitigate recoil and will help you transition from target to target better. You also have to look at what you want the rail for, are you going to attach a light of vertical grip? All things like I said can be done with you MOE hand guards or if you want something longer look into one of the many modular forearms.
It's really a matter of personal preference. You can maintain the same stance and grip with the shorter hand guards. The extension of the arm is practical though, it helps mitigate recoil and will help you transition from target to target better. You also have to look at what you want the rail for, are you going to attach a light of vertical grip? All things like I said can be done with you MOE hand guards or if you want something longer look into one of the many modular forearms.
Yes, I envision my stance will be the same but I am wondering how much of a benefit I will get if I have my support hand further out. With the MOE, my VFG (BCM angled stubby) is just behind the FSP. If I get the Troy Delta rail, I can move the VFG a little bit further forward.
With regards to accessories, as I mentioned, I already have the VFG and if I get the rail, the difference is it will be further down. The only other thing is a light which I would like to mount at the 12 o'clock position. With the MOE, I think I've narrowed it down to either the IWC SMC mount which will give me a 1 o'clock mount (lefty) or the Mossie Tactics 2400 FSB Light Mount which will give me a 12 o'clock mount.
So basically, with regards to accessories, I can achieve what I want with either the MOE or the Delta rail. I'm just trying to see if there is a benefit with going a rail with shootability of the weapon that will justify the extra cost.
That really is going to come down to trying each if possible. I have used both and with the extended rail dose help. Only because I dont have to worry about burning myself on the gas block. It really is going to personal choice, hunt around on the EE if you really want to give it a shot.
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That really is going to come down to trying each if possible. I have used both and with the extended rail dose help. Only because I dont have to worry about burning myself on the gas block. It really is going to personal choice, hunt around on the EE if you really want to give it a shot.
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I have been looking out for deals at the EE. Nothing yet so far but I'll keep an eye.
If you're new to shooting, take the $ you'd spend on the rail and buy ammunition or attend a good training class. Later on look at buying a rail. Right now, you're trying to have equipment solve end-user problems.
Moving your arm further out has benefits. But so does a traditional carbine grip.
If you're new to shooting, take the $ you'd spend on the rail and buy ammunition or attend a good training class. Later on look at buying a rail. Right now, you're trying to have equipment solve end-user problems.
Moving your arm further out has benefits. But so does a traditional carbine grip.
What End User Problems Am I Trying To Solve? I'm Merely Wondering If It Is Better For Me To Practice And Adopt A More Forward Grip. I Already Have 1000 Rounds But It's Hard To Find Good Training Here In Canada.
What BC250 is trying to say is shoot the gun using the extended grip they way you have it set up. After a while see weather you think if the longer rail is more comfortable or will give you the control you need.
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Yup. If you're relatively new to shooting, you don't know what it really is you need and why yet. This isn't meant to be a slam on you, and I understand additional training may be hard to come by at your location, but get good and proficient with fundamentals using what you have first. The carbine length handguard has been around a long time, and people have used it quite well. You may find you don't need the VFG, or can change placement or size of it. There are a lot of things you can even do before switching to a longer rail.
Do you need a rail, or do you want a rail. More experience will give you the reasons and ability to tell the difference. I prefer a midlength, but I've been using a CAR15/M4 carbine of one fashion or another for duty use for almost 20 years now and required accessory placement to base that on.
I used to really like the moe handguards on my carbine. I have a mid and carbine with 12" fortis rails that just feel so much more natural to shoot. However, I'm 6'5 and have a lot of reach. I find that when I pick up a carbine with standard handguards I'm constantly choking up on the guards and burning the bejesus out of my hand on the fsp. Not a gear issue as much as it is me, but I'd prefer a full length rail on any rifle I'm shooting.
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I guess what I was really trying to ask was whether it was a generally accepted fact that having your support hand further out/"as far forward as you can" was better for shooting..perhaps in terms of recoil control etc. I could've been clearer with my question.
Now, after seeing the responses, it seems that it's part user preference and part training. I did from the get go plan to shoot with my carbine MOE handguard first to try and gain experience. I just wanted to see some opinions/advise because I have a chance to get some stuff ordered in the US because my cousin is coming up to Canada to visit. Most US gun/gun parts manufacturers don't ship outside of the US.
If Slappy is 6'5" and uses a 12" rail then I might just be okay with a carbine length. I've been trying to dry practice my stance with my current VFG position and comparing it with a more forward grip by grabbing the barrel just under/slightly in front of the FSP and the difference in length of reach is one hand grip length, if that makes sense. Not much of a difference in terms of how much further forward my hand is but I can raise my elbow up more comfortably, not too high, just a bit under horizontal; whereas with my current setup, my support arm is about 45 degrees or less. Whether one elbow/arm position is better than the other, I don't know. I wish I could try both but every time I go to the range, there's hardly anybody there, much less anybody shooting an AR, so it's hard to get a chance to try it out.
The farther grip will help with recoil but try it a few times the way you have it. Even let the stock out a bit and if you are getting the consistent accurate hits leave it alone. Now if you are getting your hits with the thumb over bore grip but that extra handful feels better then go for a longer hand guard brother.
There are significant advantages to a longer reach on the forend of the weapon. Situation will dictate what type of hold is most advantageous and being able to adapt is ideal. If I were going to give you instruction or anyone instruction from scratch, I advocate a certain type of default method on mounting the rifle and your stance. When a carbine length handguard is the only option I will get more extension via a fully extended stock. Even though I don't have a large wingspan, the carbine handguard is still limiting my preferred default reach on a rifle.
Read the Samson Pro thread as there are some varying takes on the rifles hold. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?153769-NEW-Samson-PRO-Video-(Shooting-Stances)
Now, after seeing the responses, it seems that it's part user preference and part training. I did from the get go plan to shoot with my carbine MOE handguard first to try and gain experience. I just wanted to see some opinions/advise because I have a chance to get some stuff ordered in the US because my cousin is coming up to Canada to visit. Most US gun/gun parts manufacturers don't ship outside of the US.
They don't ship outside of the US due to ITAR regulations, and giving your shopping list to your cousin could affect his ability to possess firearms in the future if your items are seen at the border, just saying. There has been prosecutions and convictions on ITAR violations. You would need to go through retailers in Canada that have the proper permits to sell the items you want. And if you can't get them in Canada, there is a reason, and our laws don't allow it.
I tried the KISS setup, with a MOE. With a thumb-over-bore grip, my hands slips now and then during shooting. Then the "need" for a different handguard came about. Not the "want" from MOE to new handguards search. Hence, I did experiment on a VFG, AFG, or even a regular handstop.
Your shooting experience will dictate "your need."
I end up with a Fortis Rev midlength, enough "angles" for any spot in the handguard for me to secure my grip.
Good luck with your search.
They don't ship outside of the US due to ITAR regulations, and giving your shopping list to your cousin could affect his ability to possess firearms in the future if your items are seen at the border, just saying. There has been prosecutions and convictions on ITAR violations. You would need to go through retailers in Canada that have the proper permits to sell the items you want. And if you can't get them in Canada, there is a reason, and our laws don't allow it.
I had heard of ITAR and I should have read about it more. I thought that it was just the manufacturers that cannot ship outside the US themselves. I have had items shipped to my aunt and then she shipped it to me. I wasn't aware that that I was putting her at risk. However, the items were things that were available from Canadian retailers, they were just out of stock at the moment. Really benign items such as BCM mod grips etc. The only thing that I cannot find a retailer here that I am contemplating on getting is a Redi-mag. I do know that there are guys here that have or have had redi-mags. Maybe they had it shipped to them from the US too.
Shot with the MOE handguard last week and the biggest issue I have is that the front sling swivel gets really hot. I could mount my sling somewhere else but the best option, the IWC QD, cannot be shipped outside the US. I could probably have my cousin bring that, it's just a tiny little metal slot ffs. However, the other thing is I would like to mount a flashlight on the 12 o'clock position. I could get the IWC SMC mount but it feels a lot less than ideal as it will be either 1 or 11 o'clock.
There are significant advantages to a longer reach on the forend of the weapon. Situation will dictate what type of hold is most advantageous and being able to adapt is ideal. If I were going to give you instruction or anyone instruction from scratch, I advocate a certain type of default method on mounting the rifle and your stance. When a carbine length handguard is the only option I will get more extension via a fully extended stock. Even though I don't have a large wingspan, the carbine handguard is still limiting my preferred default reach on a rifle.
Read the Samson Pro thread as there are some varying takes on the rifles hold. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?153769-NEW-Samson-PRO-Video-(Shooting-Stances)
Thanks! I had done a lot of reading about stance and grip and this thread brought me back to Dave Borrensen's blog post about fighting carbine stance (due to a pic I recognized). I didn't recognize him and did not take his advice to heart at the time. I was at first trying to adopt the Magpul stance with a shortened stock, hunching the shoulders and dropping down my head but I feel that it is very fatiguing, really makes my neck sore and makes it hard for me to look through my sights. I started reading more here in M4C and watched LAV's videos on Tac-TV and it seems that a lot of the reputable instructors teach bladed stance and elongated stock (LAV, Pat McNamara, Kyle Lamb, Defoor) so I switched it around and with dry fire, I have found that it is more comfortable. I will try it out with live fire next time I get to the range.
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