View Full Version : First time poster long term lurker need some help case seperation Reload
I would like to start out with saying hello and thank you for the forums. I've been shooting AR's since 2006 and been reloading for 4 years as well.
I have shot this specific load thousands of times and had no previous signs of pressure issues.
Anyways info on the gun 10.5" SBR suppressed LMT upper CMMG lower.
This was the first round of a new magazine and the bullet did hit the target and most importantly no one was hurt.
Load info 1x fired LC, 24.6 g H335, wolf magnum primer, 55g V-max bullet. Loaded on Dillon 650.
I always inspect (with a case gage) all brass twice once after sizing and once again when the round is completed. I really don't know how I could have gotten an extra powder charge as I always look at the powder when seating the bullet and I also have the alarm on my press when powder doesn't fall within the correct range.
Anyways I do need to re-examine my load and the rest of the rounds and try to figure out what happened.
Any input would be appreciated I know I'm lucky no one was hurt and I take pride in loading good ammo this has shaken my confidence somewhat but I also know I have shot thousands of this round with no issues what so ever.
Finally, the upper receiver and BCG is toast I don't know about the barrel is it still OK to use?
26752
26753
26754
26755
Thanks for any input.
All brass the same headstamp? I've found a few random pieces of brass in my 1x fired LC lots before. All brass is not created equal.
Do you crimp? If not, it's likely the bullet was setback upon chambering.
Wow. What was your load specifics? Were there any other rounds that fired normally before this mag? What equipment are you using to meter powder and charge, etc.
That's more of a case failure (obviously due to excessive presure) than a separation.
In my opinion, you're going overboard with the case gauging. Set the die with the gauge and be done. I gauge brass MAYBE every few thousand just to check.
All brass the same headstamp? I've found a few random pieces of brass in my 1x fired LC lots before. All brass is not created equal.
Do you crimp? If not, it's likely the bullet was setback upon chambering.
They are all LC but different years I do crimp yes but this is what I'm thinking as well not sure what else it could be.
Is there a way to test the crimp???
Wow. What was your load specifics? Were there any other rounds that fired normally before this mag? What equipment are you using to meter powder and charge, etc.
That's more of a case failure (obviously due to excessive presure) than a separation.
In my opinion, you're going overboard with the case gauging. Set the die with the gauge and be done. I gauge brass MAYBE every few thousand just to check.
I have fired at least 2500 of this round and had no issues until this. This was not the first round fired this day but was the first round in a new magazine.
LC 1x, 24.6 g H335, 55g V-max, wolf SRM primer, crimped bullet. Dillon 650 is my press and I do use a powder alarm.
Yes I may be going overboard with the case gauging but I just check every round with it to make sure something wasn't missed. I do not make any adjustments after every round.
Case head blown, nasty. Huge brass flow into the ejector, which would indicate big over pressure as opposed to a weak case head. I'm with Onyx Z on this one, bullet setback sounds like. I put a light crimp on even non-cannelure bullet to fight bullet setback.
Case head blown, nasty. Huge brass flow into the ejector, which would indicate big over pressure as opposed to a weak case head. I'm with Onyx Z on this one, bullet setback sounds like. I put a light crimp on even non-cannelure bullet to fight bullet setback.
Oh I'm sure it was a pressure issue and I've been leaning on the bullet setback. Is there a reliable way to test the crimp I may just knock every bullet on my bench to see if the bullet moves back. I was just posting this here to see what other people think as more peoples thoughts are usually better in a situation like this.
Also does anyone know if my barrel is good to go I don't see any damage in it but I just don't know? I'm leaning on no with the barrel due to too much pressure but if someone knows for sure please speak up.
And thanks
LC 1x, 24.6 g H335, 55g V-max, wolf SRM primer, crimped bullet. Dillon 650 is my press and I do use a powder alarm.
You can get WOLF primers to work with H335? They usually cause hang fires and stuff.
Odd though. The load isn't that hot, and H335 shouldn't give you metering issues. I'd pull a few bullets down and spot check the powder charge. I'm not a huge believer in bullet set back. I've had it happen with some goofy hollow point surplussed bullets, and it's always caused a misfeed for me.
You can get WOLF primers to work with H335? They usually cause hang fires and stuff.
Odd though. The load isn't that hot, and H335 shouldn't give you metering issues. I'd pull a few bullets down and spot check the powder charge. I'm not a huge believer in bullet set back. I've had it happen with some goofy hollow point surplussed bullets, and it's always caused a misfeed for me.
I've never had an issue with the small magnum primers and H335 even though I've read about it. I know I need to obviously look at all these rounds and at the very least break some down but I've literally shot thousands of these from this batch and had no issues. I usually load in bulk 1-2k at least.
I'm chalking this up to a fluke... assuming your powder charge audits check out.
You could check bullet tension before and after crimping to see if some die or step in your process has gone awry. Just finger twisting the bullet is adequate. No need to smack the round on the bench.
With 24.6 of H335, the bullet could be set back quite a good bit and not kaboom like this. There has to have been a mechanical issue that let too much powder into the case.
You can get WOLF primers to work with H335? They usually cause hang fires and stuff.
Odd though. The load isn't that hot, and H335 shouldn't give you metering issues. I'd pull a few bullets down and spot check the powder charge. I'm not a huge believer in bullet set back. I've had it happen with some goofy hollow point surplussed bullets, and it's always caused a misfeed for me.
The Wolf magnums seem to work well with ball powders. The standards don't seem to have enough horsepower, I was getting hangfires and no fires alot with them. I moved on.
The Wolf magnums seem to work well with ball powders. The standards don't seem to have enough horsepower, I was getting hangfires and no fires alot with them. I moved on.
SRMs were horrible for me with H335. They did work fine with CFE, 748, and TAC however. (remember the good old days when you could buy those powders) ;)
I'm chalking this up to a fluke... assuming your powder charge audits check out.
You could check bullet tension before and after crimping to see if some die or step in your process has gone awry. Just finger twisting the bullet is adequate. No need to smack the round on the bench.
With 24.6 of H335, the bullet could be set back quite a good bit and not kaboom like this. There has to have been a mechanical issue that let too much powder into the case.
I will check all for neck tension the way you recommend and see if I can find anymore.
What are people's thoughts on the barrel?
I think it's a wild goose chase, but who knows?
Again... I bought these screwball hollow point Federal contract surplus bullets that were horrendous. (obviously I know why they surplussed the component now) I had 5 or 6 set backs in several guns. Never did the round make it to chamber.
Pain in the ass though. Would puke powder into the barrel extension area and make a mess. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it if you have normal neck tension otherwise.
All brass the same headstamp? I've found a few random pieces of brass in my 1x fired LC lots before. All brass is not created equal.
Do you crimp? If not, it's likely the bullet was setback upon chambering.
Bullet setback in a rifle is not going to create an over pressure problem. It does not take up a large enough volume in the case tho create an issue. There have been test where bullets were intentionally setback by an extreme amount and velocity was either the same or slower. In rifle cartridges pressure is reduced the farther from the lands. It increases as the bullet gets closer to the lands.
It is one of the most misunderstood concepts of reloading. Everyone figures because it is true for pistol it has to be true for rifle.
SRMs were horrible for me with H335. They did work fine with CFE, 748, and TAC however. (remember the good old days when you could buy those powders) ;)
Good to know. Some guys on here said they were gtg, but that's not true for all obviously. I'm moving on from ever using those also. If I'm diligent I can find 1 pounders at my local stores, but the 8 pounders have gone extinct around here. I've pretty much given up on the mail order houses.
The case setback and still chambering is unlikely, but crazier things have happened.
Obviously there was a huge pressure spike, so there has to be some kind of overcharge, bullet setback, etc. Maybe a long/heavy bullet (77gr) slipped in there? I don't see what else it could be.
No clue about the barrel. If it were mine, I would replace it without question.
What are people's thoughts on the barrel?
Does it show in signs of failure? Any cracks in the extension? Bulged anywhere? Just some thoughts.
The case setback and still chambering is unlikely, but crazier things have happened.
Obviously there was a huge pressure spike, so there has to be some kind of overcharge, bullet setback, etc. Maybe a long/heavy bullet (77gr) slipped in there? I don't see what else it could be.
No clue about the barrel. If it were mine, I would replace it.
I had a case head let go very similar to this one (didn't damage the gun) where I know I had a good crimp working. I sometimes wonder, if for some unknown reason, that in an otherwise sound cartridge the powder, instead of burning just sort of detonates. We'll never really know what happen, all we can do is be as careful in assembly as we're capable of.
I had a case head let go very similar to this one (didn't damage the gun) where I know I had a good crimp working. I sometimes wonder, if for some unknown reason, that in an otherwise sound cartridge the powder, instead of burning just sort of detonates. We'll never really know what happen, all we can do is be as careful in assembly as we're capable of.
That very well could be true.
Maybe some sort of foreign object found it's way in there? Though rare, I have found stainless media stuck to the inside of the case when dry. Just throwing out some ideas...
When I first started wet tumbling, I had a piece of SS media stay in a case and get fired. It popped out the ejection port and landed on Pappabear's arm. (he was shooting prone) I went to a wet rinse and dry media tumble to get additional protection from this happening.
That very well could be true.
Maybe some sort of foreign object found it's way in there? Though rare, I have found stainless media stuck to the inside of the case when dry. Just throwing out some ideas...
Could SS media stuck in a case create such an event that happened with my gun I do use SS media and wet tumble maybe I missed one. I check but maybe missed one not sure how the media could create a kaboom though?
Was the case first-fired from your chamber, and was it small-base sized?
Do you check sized brass headspace length to the shoulder with a comparator (vice a drop-in gage)?
You had a case head failure where the brass failed at the extractor groove. "Fat" brass shoved into a tight chamber along with a set-back bullet and the increased back pressure and duration curve from a suppressor could raise your pressures to yee-hah levels (with component failure, possibly leading to a kaboom).
Is your LMT barrel NATO or commercial chamber reamed?
H335 is a good analog equivalent to .mil 844, and a small magnum primer would work like a CCI .mil primer.
Was the case first-fired from your chamber, and was it small-base sized?
Do you check sized brass headspace length to the shoulder with a comparator (vice a drop-in gage)?
You had a case head failure where the brass failed at the extractor groove. "Fat" brass shoved into a tight chamber along with a set-back bullet and the increased back pressure and duration curve from a suppressor could raise your pressures to yee-hah levels (with component failure, possibly leading to a kaboom).
Is your LMT barrel NATO or commercial chamber reamed?
H335 is a good analog equivalent to .mil 844, and a small magnum primer would work like a CCI .mil primer.
No the case was not first fired from my gun it was 1x fired LC so it probably went thru a machine gun.
When setting up my dies I do use a comparator after that just a drop in gage.
barrel is NATO
If possibly first-fired in a SAW do sized cases and loaded cartridges drop freely all the way into the chamber and drop freely if you tip up the muzzle?
Does a loaded cartridge need to be "Nudged" into the chamber with a finger tip to fully seat?
Do you have a "Field" headspace gage? You can check to see if your chamber is still within safe specs.
Yes they do I have thrown away a few cases along the way that wouldn't size properly it is usually getting hung up and the base of the case where it would be extracted I will sand that area and it would usually drop in but I still toss the case none the less.
No loaded cartridges never need to be nudged in or I won't use them.
No I do not have a field headspace gage but I will look into getting one.
...I will sand that area and it would usually drop in but I still toss the case none the less.
No loaded cartridges never need to be nudged in or I won't use them.
No I do not have a field headspace gage but I will look into getting one.
What type and brand of sizing die are you using? It may only affect THIS particular chamber.
What type and brand of sizing die are you using? It may only affect THIS particular chamber.
Dillon full length
The thing is... this is ONE out of thousands of normally functioning rounds from what I gather.
Is it possible that a bullet might have instead of set back got loose when chambering as it hit the feed ramp and popped out of the case then lodged itself in the lands due to the chambering inertia? Maybe this is what really happens in supposed bullet setback kabooms.
Op... Are your VMax cannelured?
Dillon full-length sizing dies are NOT small-base dies. Your cases about 1/8 to 1/4 inch off the base (just above the extraction groove) are probably not being sized small enough for the chamber (thus the necessity to sand some of the cases to fit).
Should the cases get jam-fit by the inertia of the bolt carrier group you risk a slam-fire or an out-of-battery fire (especially if your headspace is near minimum depth, not fully supporting the case). Any weak or stretched areas become liable for a pressure fissure, which would follow the path of least resistance (blowing out at the extractor cut in the bolt face and following to the primer pocket and flash hole.
If the Dillon die does not size the case with sufficient neck tension you may risk bullet set-back, giving part two of a double-whammy.
I understand you have fired somewhere around 2500 rounds using this recipe. Have they all been fired from this weapon?
Dillon full-length sizing dies are NOT small-base dies.
I didn't look at the link at that time... but someone here a year or so back posted that Dillon's dies were small base.
A quick peek on their basic description doesn't say that they are, but somebody posted some sort of reference a while back. ??
FOUND IT..
http://www.dillonprecision.com/Dillon_223_rem_sizing_die-98-14-311.htm
Per Dillon. All rifle dies are small base with a carbide expander ball. They do have a steel .223 steel die#12778 that I think is not small base. But it is special order I believe.
i doubt it was bullet set back. i've fired plenty of rifle rounds with zero neck tension and the bullet pushed forward or back. ime, it means nothing as far as pressure is concerned. (of course, you still want to avoid it for several other reasons)
inspect your can carefully. if SS media was the culprit, it would almost definitely strike baffles on the way out. some might even still be in the can.
barrels are not super expensive. it might be ok, but why risk it? especially since you're building a whole new upper anyway. also, in the event something to do with the chamber was partially responsible for the kaboom, you won't have to worry about another. and if something like this happened again, this barrel might self disassemble along with the rest of your rifle where a new barrel might not.
if the flash hole is still intact, measure the size of it. an excessively large hole could cause a pressure spike, especially with a magnum primer. (though i don't know if 'magnum' in that brand means more juice).
Could SS media stuck in a case create such an event that happened with my gun I do use SS media and wet tumble maybe I missed one. I check but maybe missed one not sure how the media could create a kaboom though?
One is not likely to cause a kaboom, but there could have been more that never found their way out after tumbling. Anything is possible.
Op... Are your VMax cannelured?
Sorry guys been busy with work and I somehow got a bad summer cold just been going home and going to bed
Anyways no cannelure
Dillon full-length sizing dies are NOT small-base dies. Your cases about 1/8 to 1/4 inch off the base (just above the extraction groove) are probably not being sized small enough for the chamber (thus the necessity to sand some of the cases to fit).
Should the cases get jam-fit by the inertia of the bolt carrier group you risk a slam-fire or an out-of-battery fire (especially if your headspace is near minimum depth, not fully supporting the case). Any weak or stretched areas become liable for a pressure fissure, which would follow the path of least resistance (blowing out at the extractor cut in the bolt face and following to the primer pocket and flash hole.
If the Dillon die does not size the case with sufficient neck tension you may risk bullet set-back, giving part two of a double-whammy.
I understand you have fired somewhere around 2500 rounds using this recipe. Have they all been fired from this weapon?
Yes 90% from this weapon maybe more.
How much of this ammo do you have loaded?
How much of this ammo do you have loaded?
I would bet at least 1k more rounds.
Wow. That's tough. I'd have a hard time just shooting up the rest of this without knowing what happened.
Not sure how your 650 is set up. But for me... I have a Target store bought clamp on, plug in, LED light that I have mounted to beam down from above on my powder charge station.
I get a visual check on 100% of my powder charges, and can see if one is high in the case or if the measure has run empty. I load primed brass and focus my attention on powder and bullet seating completely. I've pulled PMP brass on the fly because I could see the powder level was high compared to my other cases.
This might be an option for you... I know my confidence would be shaken if I'd kaboomed a gun with my loads.
Dillon dies may be small-base now -- in my experience (originally) they were not. Small base dies in a 550 or 650 may not properly size if the shell plate is not tightened down correctly. The only way you can verify is to use a set of calipers and measure the widest part of the case above the extractor groove.
Cases sized in Dillon dies in a 550 can slam-fire in an M16 with a commercial match chamber (been there, done that, Quantico Range 4, Standing Off-Hand).
Since it's a short-barreled rifle with a suppressor you can try using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. If your cases were not sized to freely chamber you can try sizing your loaded ammo in a Redding body-only sizing die in a single-stage press (avoiding a Dillon sizing die plate to ensure the cases are sized as low as they'll fit before touching the case holder).
OP, do you ever reload pistol ammo?
H
OP, do you ever reload pistol ammo?
H
yes I do.
yes I do.
How do you ensure you don't get pistol powder in your rifle loads?
The easiest (most logical) explanation for your 'oopsie' is that you loaded a rifle case with pistol powder or a mix of rifle and pistol powder.
H
On the 550b those would have two different powder bars. ??
How do you ensure you don't get pistol powder in your rifle loads?
The easiest (most logical) explanation for your 'oopsie' is that you loaded a rifle case with pistol powder or a mix of rifle and pistol powder.
H
There is no way for that to happen unless they would all be loaded with pistol powder all my calibers have their own setup and own powder funnel on my setup ie no pistol powder ever goes in a rifle powder funnel and vise versa.
If 25grs of pistol powder was substituted for rifle powder I would think damage to the rifle would have been massive, much, much more devastating. I don't think that was the problem. Besides, how would only one case get charged in such a way?
If 25grs of pistol powder was substituted for rifle powder I would think damage to the rifle would have been massive, much, much more devastating. I don't think that was the problem. Besides, how would only one case get charged in such a way?
I think he was thinking a powder change over left a little pistol powder in the system. Apparently not the case.
Read his post too quick, I understand his point now.
There is no way for that to happen unless they would all be loaded with pistol powder all my calibers have their own setup and own powder funnel on my setup ie no pistol powder ever goes in a rifle powder funnel and vise versa.
Do you have a better explanation for what happened that fits the facts as we know them?
1) Case failure consistent with pressure in excess of proof load.
2) Reloaded ammo caused the failure.
3) Pistol powder is present on site.
4) Unknown how many/if any more cartridges have the same defect.
H
If 25grs of pistol powder was substituted for rifle powder I would think damage to the rifle would have been massive, much, much more devastating. I don't think that was the problem. Besides, how would only one case get charged in such a way?
I had a KB like that. I stuffed a case with 23 gns of AA#9 instead of 2230. The upper was bulged, and cracked the barrel ext. pretty similar to the op's KB.
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