View Full Version : Should police have mandatory PT? (Example vid) should this LEO be able to kee...
Let me start out by saying this: I am not here to bash LEO or start a discussion about me.
http://youtu.be/GivBf33rteA
My concern is that he is completely ineffective to act as a law enforcement officer in the shape he is in. However, I do feel like someone could have taken notice before now and put him on some kinda PT reg. I know his health is his own responsibility, but damn... Given the years he likely worked for the that force, you'd think they could've at least put him on dispatch until he got back into shape.. Still, no excuse for this guy to be that obese and think he can act if called upon.
What are some thoughts on this?
A lot of LE agencies have annual Physical Fitness Testing for this reason. The officer's physical condition should not have reached this point before command took steps to address the issue.
When you choose law enforcement as a career, you lose the right to be unfit.
New Centurion
06-26-14, 17:36
Hey Scrubber, I see you are in VA. I know of at least one agency here that gives its personnel the opportunity to work out on duty and has an annual PT assessment. I'm sure they are laying the ground work for future, more stringent requirements and reducing the maximum effective range of any excuse of being out of shape.
I think being fit for duty is a reasonable expectation and an attainable goal (aside from illness or injury, which would sideline you anyway).
If the job is to protect and serve and the LEO's ability to get there is impeded, that's absolutely on the leadership for that, and it needs to be rectified. The major leadership failure was prior to it getting that bad, because right before that test he may have been the officer tasked with arriving in a bad situation and wind up being a danger to himself and those he's responding to protect.
When you choose law enforcement as a career, you lose the right to be unfit.
Right or not, we see many unfit LE's on a daily basis. This is both a department issue and a personal resposibility.
I agree that those we entrust to protect and serve should be fit for the duty.
Maybe its all those free doughnuts...
There are a lot of departments that don't do yearly PT tests aside from specific units. I work for a large agency, and SWAT is the only one that does yearly ones. Others get into a fitness class/program over the course of a few months, where they have to pass the PT test every few months, but a lot of that has to do with people that want the medal, yes medal, for passing the PT test 3 times. It comes down to people wanting to fill their uniforms with stupid medals. Yes, I called the medals stupid. Other agencies around us offer discounts on their health insurance premiums, or a little added benefit pay per month.
Either way, I completely agree that it's pathetic people get in this kind of shape, regardless of military or law enforcement.
Don Robison
06-26-14, 20:29
He got his job back................and doesn't appear any more fit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcymAfIT6V8
Two years he had to lose that weight and it appears he may have actually gained some.... Wow
Inkslinger
06-26-14, 21:07
Now he lives in a van down by the river.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/27/me4u3y6y.jpg
New Centurion
06-26-14, 21:12
...but a lot of that has to do with people that want the medal, yes medal, for passing the PT test 3 times. It comes down to people wanting to fill their uniforms with stupid medals.
“Give me enough medals and I’ll win you any war”
-Napoleon was no fool
HighSpeedDreams
06-26-14, 21:17
Probably one of the most selfish things a cop can do. Disgusting.
My concern is that he is completely ineffective to act as a law enforcement officer in the shape he is in.
He still has a brain.
His physical effectiveness I agree. I don't understand where we got this deal of "ok, I got hired, so the job is mine no matter what"
If there is no desk job or similar for him then something has to change, and I agree that doesn't look like it happened overnight.
If there is no desk job or similar for him then something has to change, and I agree that doesn't look like it happened overnight.
His job is a patrol officer.
oh, ok, well.... that pretty well sums it up. Kinda like a pilot that is going blind. His job carries the expectation of reasonable agility which he clearly has lost through lack of self control.
Thoughts: If he is assigned to field duty or other assignment requiring physical force, arrest, foot pursuit, scaling walls, or entering an elevated structure then he is a liability to his fellow Officers and the public that he is charged to serve.
Obesity is a major problem in our Nation. I agree with the observation that there are many in public safety who are out of shape, but if they are still able to perform their duties then I do not take issue with it. However, if you cannot fufill your duties and basic job requirements then you should not be out on patrol or responding on a Fire engine, or whatever first responder position applies.
eljimbo142
06-26-14, 23:14
but the tax payers are getting 3 men for the price of 1
LOL, is it not required in all departments? It's only funny because it's so absurd.
I had guys on my teams in the past who were taking time off from various PDs, many major metro areas. It was common for rivalries to occur when less qualified team members were discovered to be the type to cut corners in their annual PT Testing. All of them came from departments that did enforce the testing, though holy shit was it weak. I learned that many who know they won't pass (passing score should be easy for most eighth graders) to find bogus reasons for doctors notes right around testing time. If they missed their annual test date, they often got lost in the sea of names and buried in schedules, and would have a year before testing again. Many of them hid behind those notes, knowing a union would defend them, for way too long.
Luckily, we didn't have unions and we could essentially peer out anyone who couldn't perform. I worked out at least three days a week with my team, and anybody who couldn't keep up at a certain level found themselves elsewhere.
There are those who find it acceptable to be fat. Not just in LE, but in many situations where "tactical environments" exist. The assumption is that if one can be fat and still perform box drills, drive a car, ride a desk...whatever it is, then their physical build should have nothing to do with their ability to remain OTJ. I strongly disagree. Being fit isn't just about meeting the bare minimum. It is a display of personal standards and the expectation of the best performance from ones self at all times. Being unable to control your eating shows a lack of discipline and self control, which is detrimental and can be fatal to others. Making excuses for being fat shows an almost narcissistic ability to place blame on others for your own most basic human responsibility of maintaining the one body you have. It shows that someone will always make the time or complete their tasks and still seek self improvement for the day highest performance is required.
but the tax payers are getting 3 men for the price of 1
I was going to ask something similar, a little more serious though, but I'm a sucker for a bargain...how many Three-fers can I get at once? Is there a purchase limit? Might solve the budget problems...
But really as a taxpayer who expects a certain quality in the LEAs I am paying for (not much, I know) would my community and I be able to request the suspension (without pay) of any officer who clearly does not meet physical fitness standards? Or does anyone know if there are discrimination laws that would prevent such a reason for suspension/termination? I know the USSS has to abide by those Equal Op laws...trust me, you can tell ;)
I'm only asking from a legal perspective if this would even be allowed should a community band together on this issue. Whether or not the union has your house raided accidentally....several times....is a different discussion.
I work for a fairly large suburban department and we offer a physical fitness test once a year. It is completely optional and those who participate are rewarded with something (i.e. duffel bag, sweat shirt, jacket, etc). It's a total joke that it's not a mandatory part of the job. We have guys/girls who haven't taken the PT test since they were hired 20 years ago. We work 8 hour shifts and they let us take a 30 minute lunch/dinner or we can work out in the gym we have in the building for an hour per shift.....and we still can't get people to PT. If our Dept. ever put someone on "time out" for lack of physical fitness our union would be all over their ass.
Having had to rely on guys who couldn't get out of their own way as backup I think it should be mandatory. The job is physically demanding. Too many guys/gals get early retirement for injuries that could have been prevented with just a minimum amount of fitness.
I feel that EMS needs to maintain standards too. I see too many medics calling the FD for a "lift assist" for merely average sized PT's. We just got new stretchers. They weigh 20lbs more than the old ones. You'd think they were 100lbs heavier from all the bitching and moaning. I'm not in favor of the old height/weight standards but realize the job you are getting yourself into. This isn't a nice, clean, climate controlled office setting. If you can't be physical then get out of the field.
This poor guy has to buy Tactical gear that will fit over on the EE at TOS!
I don't see mandatory PT like the military does as something that I want my tax $$ spent on. Between reports, court appearance and all the other stuff these guys have to mess with adding PT to the mix will eventual turn an 8 hour work day into 18. Not fair IMO to demand that people do shit they aren't being paid for. Also not everyone needs a rigorous PT plan to stay in shape. Some may like to work out with their families.
However, I would love to see MANDATORY annual or even semi annual qualifications that include physical activity. If you're a patrol officer that means being able to get in and out of your car quickly, running an obstacle course, dragging weight, shooting straight and safe....Whatever you have to do at academy in preparation for your new job. Can't pass it you ride a desk and not risk lives. Can't pass it repeatedly and there aren't enough desks then you're out.
The responsible officers will figure out what works for them and their families. They will do what it takes to keep doing the job they like. The others... well it's probably a good way to weed out the chaff.
lincolns mullet
06-27-14, 11:44
Yes, of course there should be a annual physical test for LEOs in the field.
I can't speak for all areas, but I can tell you in my region where PD's have attempted to add a minimal yearly PT tests, it's the unions who shut the idea down. A PD for a major metro PD offered to grandfather LEOs who joined before X date, so the out of shape old timers didn't have to comply, and it was shut down by the union. After they graduate, zero PT standard is expected. They also reduced the shooting qual from 2x per year, to 1, but that's another issue...
This same PD added a smoking ban, and the union tried to block that also. That one at least succeeded.
Another medium sized PD in the region even offered to make it optional. Those that did it and passed got an extra day off, those that didn't, no harm done, no problems for them. Union shut it down.
You'll find in areas of the country minus a union, LEOs tend to be in better shape and minimum PT standards are required.
Two points:
I'm not inherently anti union per se, and have seen where they helped, and where they harmed. In this case, I see no good came from union intervention
There's likely PD with a union where the LEOs do have some minimal PT standard they have to keep up with, and non union PD where they don't. I don't know the status of every PD in the nation on that score, but I believe my comment correct in vast majority of cases where you'll find PD with no PT requirements after they graduate from the academy.
New Centurion
06-27-14, 19:46
The Dept. I referenced earlier has had a smoking ban/contract in place for many years, and Virginia is a right-to-work state, no union.
I can't speak for all areas, but I can tell you in my region where PD's have attempted to add a minimal yearly PT tests, it's the unions who shut the idea down. A PD for a major metro PD offered to grandfather LEOs who joined before X date, so the out of shape old timers didn't have to comply, and it was shut down by the union. After they graduate, zero PT standard is expected. They also reduced the shooting qual from 2x per year, to 1, but that's another issue...
This same PD added a smoking ban, and the union tried to block that also. That one at least succeeded.
Another medium sized PD in the region even offered to make it optional. Those that did it and passed got an extra day off, those that didn't, no harm done, no problems for them. Union shut it down.
You'll find in areas of the country minus a union, LEOs tend to be in better shape and minimum PT standards are required.
Two points:
I'm not inherently anti union per se, and have seen where they helped, and where they harmed. In this case, I see no good came from union intervention
There's likely PD with a union where the LEOs do have some minimal PT standard they have to keep up with, and non union PD where they don't. I don't know the status of every PD in the nation on that score, but I believe my comment correct in vast majority of cases where you'll find PD with no PT requirements after they graduate from the academy.
This is what happened with my agency which has been trying to implement a PT test for several years. I have suggested making it optional and offering some type of incentive to take and pass the PT test like an extra personal day.
alcante262
06-28-14, 18:27
Physical fitness should be MANDATORY or take a reduction in pay.
I don't see how he even thinks hes okay to perform the job. He can't even get up from his knee.
On a lighter note do they even make bullet proof vests that big??
Of course this silliness happens! You guys remember the LEO in Miami a few years back who was from Haiti (he was black obviously). Part of the MPD requirements was the ability to swim. This makes sense for all LEOs, especially in Miami when you are surrounded by water (ocean, canals, pools). The guy sued the city because he couldn't swim. He claimed it was racial discrimination because he was black and blacks don't swim very much compared to whites. He actually won! Talk about putting the public and fellow LEOs in danger.
I don't think PT should be mandatory, but I do think PT tests should be mandatory for all sworn LEOs whether they be local, state, or federal. My question is why and when did being out of shape in law enforcement become acceptable, it can't be as simple as the unions?
My department's pt test is optional as well, thanks to our union. Some speciality units used to be given 2 hours a week to workout, and I gladly came in a half hour early to get good full hour of training in. At one time commanders were doing a pilot program granting patrol officers some workout time if it wasn't super busy which I thought was awesome. Working out as a squad made units tighter and encouraged competition. Our new chief squashed all pt time among other things when he arrived. I still find it amazing we don't have a mandatory pt test each year.
I'm finding it hard to have a big problem with this. On one hand, I very big on fitness, and though I do my best to be a non-judgmental humanist and cheerleader for my fellow man, I do have one weakness: obesity. I will judge you. I don't mean to, but I will.
That said, I still don't really care. What if he's a great PR cop? What if he's got a great personality, the community loves him, and he's a sage investigator with 15 years of perception and perspective? What if he's FTO'd dozens of great officers? What if the department loves him and finds his service invaluable? There are female cops who would get slaughtered in a street fight with a wet noodle- but you better damn well not discriminate against them. I think if the department has a place for a disgusting fatbody, or a 4'9" 95lbs female; that's their prerogative.
My 2 cents.
Voodoo_Man
06-29-14, 15:59
I skimmed the thread so forgive me if I missed some of this.
What needs to happen in order for departments to institute PT requirements:
1. Gym time on the clock
2. Free gym access at multiple locations
3. A grace period for those already on the job or them to be "grandfathered in" to no PT.
4. The unions to allow it, which will mean a raise for the officers since they are mandated to be more "fit" which requires "motivation" or something of that level.
5. Specific guidelines for what the PT standard is, which is an issue since most "academy" standards are state standards that go through an age/gender range type of scale - so what happens to the PD's that don't have a retirement cap? Are you going to expect a 60yr old to do what a 21 yr old can? Would it be fair for that 60yr old, that can otherwise perform his duties, to be fired because he cannot do the state PT test?
What is going to happen if the above occurs:
1. Tax payers not happy
2. Use of force reports skyrocket - more fit cops are more aggressive cops, physically
3. Officers getting injured at the gym, suing and winning because it is required by the PD, therefore they are responsible for them being there - more money gone by the tax payer
4. Officers being sore from working out and not aggressively patrolling or getting involved in something, while being sore, and getting injured or worse using deadly force because they know they are sore and will get injured.
5. Union will complain that this takes officers off the street and that they are away from their families - getting paid more to work out, or incentives for working out
If you think all of this is BS, ask any officer that works in a PD that has a "standard" and also has a strong union.
I think it is a great idea personally, the only issue I see is that you are going to have more officers who are exempt from the standard, due to whatever issue than the amount of officers required to for a while. Eventually it'll be half and half and then the whole department. The growing pains, through this, may cause the department to drop the whole standard due to litigation and other issues.
edit; this post was in no way a sweeping statement on all PD's, it is a very general statement that does not take into account states rights, "right to work" states vs. others as well the strength of the union of a specific PD.
We get a bouns to pass the state PT test. But I think this will be the last year the CO commissioners cough up the dime for it. We have been doing this for three years now and they have seen gradually higher passing rates each year. I try and stay fit cause of my personal goals and the job. The first year we had a bunch of old timers say they were eating better and walking to try and be ready for year two. Yes they were so out of shape they were shooting for next year before the first one was even done. However many stopped trying inside of a months time.
My partner is a big guy and I try and drag him to the gym and drop little hints about diet. But he has only joined me once in about 3 months and left after 15 minutes. The crazy thing about diet is he will agree with everything I say and turn around and eat rice, mashed potatoes and meat in the same meal not mention it is enough for two meals. I just wish I could get through to him.
I think PT should be mandatory.
Not only does being a fatty impede your ability to keep up with physically fit people, but it also makes you unhealthy, makes you a bigger target. It even makes you look like crap in uniform.
We have fatties in the military its disgusting, they should be PTd till they die.
If your gonna be a professional, then you should look like a professional.
America has a major obesity problem. Too many fat/ lazy people, and yes its laziness cause I knew a guy who came to the gym everyday for over a year and he made major life changes. Was he lazy? No he got his S*** together, got motivated and got off his butt.
I'm sorry, I mean I understand adding some weight, but being OBESE is not right. This man has a job to perform. I don't see how being obese is going to accomplish that.
Its almost a ****ing slap to the face to the people who try to get into the force that are way more in shape than this dude and miss the PT run or something by 2 seconds.
"Oh, sorry, you didnt pass the PT within the required time, but don't worry we have a obese cop that can't lift himself up to save his own life."
Either way, if your life is on the line daily, wouldn't you think you would want to be in the best condition possible to defend yourself when the time arises?
Lowering standards lowers morale and operational capability. Standards should be established and LEO should be required to meet those standards regardless of gender.
Standards on a sliding scale based on age are already in place at some agencies, so aging and minor injuries would not preclude an aging officer from employment. I doubt the officer in the video could meet minimum standards established for personnel who are in the upper age bracket.
I can't speak for all areas, but I can tell you in my region where PD's have attempted to add a minimal yearly PT tests, it's the unions who shut the idea down. A PD for a major metro PD offered to grandfather LEOs who joined before X date, so the out of shape old timers didn't have to comply, and it was shut down by the union. After they graduate, zero PT standard is expected. They also reduced the shooting qual from 2x per year, to 1, but that's another issue...
This same PD added a smoking ban, and the union tried to block that also. That one at least succeeded.
Another medium sized PD in the region even offered to make it optional. Those that did it and passed got an extra day off, those that didn't, no harm done, no problems for them. Union shut it down.
You'll find in areas of the country minus a union, LEOs tend to be in better shape and minimum PT standards are required.
Two points:
I'm not inherently anti union per se, and have seen where they helped, and where they harmed. In this case, I see no good came from union intervention
There's likely PD with a union where the LEOs do have some minimal PT standard they have to keep up with, and non union PD where they don't. I don't know the status of every PD in the nation on that score, but I believe my comment correct in vast majority of cases where you'll find PD with no PT requirements after they graduate from the academy.
I'm federal and from what I understand, this is exactly what happened to my agency having a fitness requirement. I feel it is on the individual to be responsible for maintaining a fitness level. I don't want an on the clock exercise regimen for the same reason another posted mentioned, we have actual duties, and secondary duties, and tertiary duties on top of that. We don't have the time to pay every agent to work out. That's why we have a tac unit. :D I'm not an administrator, but a suggestion could be fitness tests when a supervisor or manager (or even one's peers) deems an individual to be unfit. Failure results in remedial training, further failure results in suspension without pay, ultimately leading to termination.
The guy in the video could not back anyone up. He is a danger to himself, his colleagues, and to the public. I kind of feel that is worse than incompetence.
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