View Full Version : Phoenix PD pulling Gen4 G21s off the street
My buddy just called me and told me that the armory called him and is pulling his Gen4 21 off the street. He has to go down tomorrow morning and get a replacement gun. They told him it has something to do with the magazine catch failing and ejecting mags during fire. I asked about my Gen3 21c and they said its good to go. Also the other Gen4 models are good to go. Anyone heard anything about this problem?
When he goes down tomorrow Ill have him try and get more detailed info.
Heck, from all that I've heard so far, I thought the G-21 was the success story of the Gen 4 Glocks.
Pa State Police are replacing theirs after having them for less than a year.
RadioActivity
06-27-14, 00:09
PLEASE send me or post up any info you have pertaining to this. I have a G41 that is doing this exact thing and it is INFURIATING.
PLEASE send me or post up any info you have pertaining to this. I have a G41 that is doing this exact thing and it is INFURIATING.
Stop limp wristing.
It's either a weak spring design or being hit somehow during use.
crazymoose
06-27-14, 12:41
It's either a weak spring design or being hit somehow during use.
That was my first thought. The great thing about a larger mag release is that it's easier to activate. The bad thing about a larger mag release is that it's easier to activate. I've heard the same complaint with the PPQ M2 mag release, although I haven't had the issue myself.
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
There's literally not one modern pistol I'd be confident in owning right now. I wonder if Glock could reverse engineer their original guns that actually worked. :fie:
Coal Dragger
06-27-14, 12:51
I think HK has a pretty good reputation here lately of making pistols that work right out of the box. Of course you will pay accordingly for it.
That is odd. Is the recall specific to a set of serials or all of them. The G21-4 I had was flawless. The new mag release was pretty big and did run a blister on my support hand. Nothing a needle file and some sharp corner rounding didn't stop. Wonder if people are accidentally hitting the mag release.
wildcard600
06-27-14, 15:56
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
There's literally not one modern pistol I'd be confident in owning right now. I wonder if Glock could reverse engineer their original guns that actually worked. :fie:
yeah its pretty sad how they managed to screw up thier own design so badly with such marginal changes.
davidjinks
06-27-14, 16:26
PSP are having issues with the triggers failing to reset.
They're going to the SIG P227 from my understanding.
From what I was told PSP also had some magazine related issues when they were topped off. My source also said they are going with the Sig 227.
Mine has never dropped magazines either. It always runs...
PSP are having issues with the triggers failing to reset.
They're going to the SIG P227 from my understanding.
A couple of the guys have told me they are going to be given the option to stay with the Glock or opt for the Sig??? Sounds like a Charlie Foxtrot for the armory but I have had several Troopers tell me the same thing. It will be interesting to see how it finally shakes out.
:(
More Glorps bite the dust.
A local dept here authorized the Gen4 21 and found after about a year some guys reportedly had "mag swelling" issues resulting in mags not dropping free and requiring the mag catch to be held in while removing the magazine. I only saw one of the pistols that did this but it was a problem. They never got it sorted out fully and ended up going with the M&P 45 as the only authorized sidearm.
My dept. issues the Gen4 Glock 21 sf, I haven't run into any mag problems as far as dropping.
The last couple of range sessions I have had a couple of failure to lock back on an empty mag.
I don't know about Phoenix PD but the PA State Police are dumping the G4 G21 after numerous problems. My understanding is Glock was given the chance to make it right but either didn't or couldn't. They are transitioning to the Sig P227. They had it less than a year and it's a significant contract that Glock lost. It's about 3,000 + pistols.
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
It would get recalled in a few months. We run G21SFs, Glock should have stopped there with the 21.
Drifting Fate
06-27-14, 19:06
Makes me want to run out and buy another Gen 3 G17 while I still can.
packinaglock
06-27-14, 19:20
Makes me want to run out and buy another Gen 3 G17 while I still can.
Older ones if you can, in the last year or two I've made sure to check the serial #'s on the ones I've bought.
A friend recently sent his 41 back to Glock twice for FTFeed issues. Glock didn't find any issues with it so I loaned him my Gen3 21 to try/compare/swap mags. Turns out he was hitting the mag catch and dropping the mag slightly. Adjusted his grip and the problem was solved. I wonder if this is a "gun" problem because the "operator" couldn't be at fault...
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
There's literally not one modern pistol I'd be confident in owning right now. I wonder if Glock could reverse engineer their original guns that actually worked. :fie:
You mean like stay with a mag release that works, one that's sized properly? Like one that you learn to run without issue instead of folding into the market of people who need crutches to compensate for lack of training by having mag funnels, big mag releases, slide stop/releases, etc? --and yes-you purist, it does release the slide as well.
Aside from ClosetCaseNerd, has anybody seen a G21 or G41 that actually dumps mags on the deck. I'm looking for actual 1st hand experience.
FWIW, I have a G21-4 that sits right at 500 rounds and has performed as expected. I purchased a G41 last month, but it only has 100 rounds through it; also no problems.
Glock replaced the trigger and trigger bar on PSPs Glock 21s.
Troopers that I have spoken to, who are shooters, are not having problems with their issued guns.
Aside from ClosetCaseNerd, has anybody seen a G21 or G41 that actually dumps mags on the deck. I'm looking for actual 1st hand experience.
FWIW, I have a G21-4 that sits right at 500 rounds and has performed as expected. I purchased a G41 last month, but it only has 100 rounds through it; also no problems.
My Gen4 Glock 21 has a little over a thousand rounds through it without a malfunction of any kind.
Nevertheless, I should note that I always load 12 rounds in the magazine--never 13. When the gun was new the 13th round exerted so much upward pressure that it was almost impossible to fully seat the magazine and rack the slide. Now that the springs have relaxed somewhat I could probably fill the magazines, but I don't feel like screwing with something that's working.
A couple of weeks back two Indiana State Police come to my class for a presentation and after class I asked them why they did not have Glocks. One said they had been having multiple issues with them and switched over to Sigs. I didn't chat with them too long so I didn't get to ask what exact issues they were having and what particular model they had. Makes me curious, next time I see an ISP officer I will have to inquire further.
Wow... I so wanted a Gen4 but I can't bring myself to the table with these stories.
My Gen4 Glock 21 has a little over a thousand rounds through it without a malfunction of any kind.
Nevertheless, I should note that I always load 12 rounds in the magazine--never 13. When the gun was new the 13th round exerted so much upward pressure that it was almost impossible to fully seat the magazine and rack the slide. Now that the springs have relaxed somewhat I could probably fill the magazines, but I don't feel like screwing with something that's working.
Most instructors who recommend Glocks suggest to students that reload mags be downloaded by a round for this exact reason. The mag in my Glocks is always loaded to capacity. I take one out of my reloads - not mater which caliber or model I use.
Wow... I so wanted a Gen4 but I can't bring myself to the table with these stories.
Which is why I asked for first hand knowledge of specific issues.
Straight Shooter
06-27-14, 22:47
FWIW- Ive had my G21 I bought NIB back in late 2005. Almost from the start its had a big ass mag release button I put on it. As big, or bigger than the Gen 4's...and Ive ran many, many thousands of rounds thru this gun and aint never had this happen. Ive always, as a matter of course, downloaded mags by 1 round. I have + 4 extenders on some of my mags, and they have ran 100%.
buy an HK. When was the last time you heard of a recall from them?
RadioActivity
06-27-14, 23:48
Firing with one hand it won't dump the mag. I am certain I'm hitting it during the recoil cycle.
But - I can shoot any other gen of G21/G20, even with massive aftermarket extended magazine releases. Stock Gen 4 G19/23/17/26 and no issues. Others can shoot my G41 without issue. Its NOT limp wristing for christ sakes LOL, we can just leave it at that. I am a fairly accomplished shooter and I'm using correct form and grip. I can shoot a G20 with such a large extended magazine release its to the point that it blisters the meaty portion below my thumb during long training days. Its frustrating that the entire idea of GLOCK is that its the SAME controls and associated feeling between platforms - except in this case, it's not. FFrrawwwhhhrrr!
RadioActivity
06-28-14, 00:02
I am excited to see where the VP9 series goes. Maybe in 3 years time there will be an assortment of sizes and calibers. I'd dump Glock for one, or several I should say. At this point they (HK) are the last bastions. I loved the idea that my G19 and G26 shared magazines, that my G19, G26, G41 all had the same sights, trigger, magazine release, approximate grip etc.
A couple of weeks back two Indiana State Police come to my class ...... I didn't get to ask what exact issues they were having and what particular model they had. Makes me curious, next time I see an ISP officer I will have to inquire further.
Good luck getting a straight story. Few agencies will admit to causing any problems and gun companies won't rat out an agency when they catch them faking problems.
Word was the gen 4 41 which is being t and e'd for duty use by armory staff was dumping mags when using various +p duty rounds. Had a buddy who is pretty solid drop his mags from his 41 during a class last month but we didn't think much of it. Glock has been contacted about the problem, ill guess well see what happens. I have a 41 that id like to carry on duty and haven't had any trouble with. At least I convinced myself I have an excuse to buy a G34 for duty now.
teutonicpolymer
06-28-14, 01:47
I think the extended mag release on your 20 might actually work to prevent the problem
My guess is that the user's fingers might be sliding over the big mag release which is basically flush with the frame during recoil.
Good luck getting a straight story. Few agencies will admit to causing any problems and gun companies won't rat out an agency when they catch them faking problems.
Exactly...
There is way more to this story. Let's hope it all trickles out.
PLEASE send me or post up any info you have pertaining to this. I have a G41 that is doing this exact thing and it is INFURIATING.
The rest of the story...
The G21's were not pulled because they were having issues. A T&E (Torture & Eradicate) G41 was ejecting magazines and someone decided it would be a good idea to pull all Glocks chambered in .45ACP. Brilliant, just f'in brilliant. Kudos to the decision maker at PPD.
About 1000 new serial Gen4 G17's put into duty use since March, with another 1000 or so to go. I personally signed off on approx 500 so far. No major issues, a couple minor things, like sights working loose. Will be conducting familiarization / transition training very soon for a unit that will field 65 new Gen4 G21's. All of the Gen4 G21's that I have encountered, including 2 of my own, have been issue free and great pistols.
About 1000 new serial Gen4 G17's put into duty use since March, with another 1000 or so to go. I personally signed off on approx 500 so far. No major issues, a couple minor things, like sights working loose. Will be conducting familiarization / transition training very soon for a unit that will field 65 new Gen4 G21's. All of the Gen4 G21's that I have encountered, including 2 of my own, have been issue free and great pistols.
That mirrors my experience. I have made several Glock purchases over the past 4 years which have resulted in about 40K rounds of 40, 45, and 9mm ammo being fired through various models - no systemic issues.
The rest of the story...
The G21's were not pulled because they were having issues. A T&E (Torture & Eradicate) G41 was ejecting magazines and someone decided it would be a good idea to pull all Glocks chambered in .45ACP. Brilliant, just f'in brilliant. Kudos to the decision maker at PPD.
I'm hearing different. What I was told today is that they started noticing the problem when people were qualifying with duty ammo which is +p. The armory tested multiple gen4 21s and had several dump mags when shooting the +p duty ammo. They contacted Glock last week and Glock hasn't responded.
Also they aren't pulling Gen 3 21s.
Also they aren't pulling Gen 3 21s.
You are correct, only Gen 4 G21's. Like I said, there is more to this story and I hope it all gets out. Glock clearly warns against the use of +P ammunition unless it meets SAAMI guidelines. Save me a call, what brand of "duty" ammunition are they using?
Mine has weak ejection, and BTF,BTH with low powered range ammo.
You are correct, only Gen 4 G21's. Like I said, there is more to this story and I hope it all gets out. Glock clearly warns against the use of +P ammunition unless it meets SAAMI guidelines. Save me a call, what brand of "duty" ammunition are they using?
Federal HST 230grn +p. Dont know the specific item number.
A couple of the guys have told me they are going to be given the option to stay with the Glock or opt for the Sig??? Sounds like a Charlie Foxtrot for the armory but I have had several Troopers tell me the same thing. It will be interesting to see how it finally shakes out.
The entire department is transitioning to the Sig P227 in the fall.
alcante262
06-28-14, 18:16
Sorry to hear that.I know down in Tucson the Cops are forced to carry a 40Cal Glock either 22 or 23.Hats off to Phoenix PD
Federal HST 230grn +p. Dont know the specific item number.
P45HST1
Were they seeing the same issues running standard pressure HST loads or just the +p?
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
There's literally not one modern pistol I'd be confident in owning right now. I wonder if Glock could reverse engineer their original guns that actually worked. :fie:
m&p40, m&p45? I have seen Zero issues reported with these. That said, I'd be confident with a 9mm glock or m&p, after giving it the rundown. VP9 looks interesting as well. CZ SP-01s (especially SOA IMO) are also very good if you really want to stick with 9, but not set on striker. Also the PO7 and P09 CZs.
To be honest, I think a lot of the m&p9 and glock issues were real, but not extremely common. I also think they were exacerbated by people who just cant shoot jumping on the blame the gun bandwagon.
Back on topic Im interested to see all the facts come out on this issue.
The entire department is transitioning to the Sig P227 in the fall.
I personally think this is stupid.
It is my opinion that 99% of the issues are shooter induced. Guys who I have talked to (PSP) that are shooters have zero problems with their guns.
The issue I have is PSP dumps one gun and transitions to yet another gun that is new and un-proven. And also takes a step backward to a DA/SA pistol with crappy reset.
crazymoose
06-29-14, 00:22
Have four 4th gen Glocks: 41, 21, 17, and 34. Have not run a ton of rounds through any of them yet (probably under 1K on each one), but have not personally had any issues. The 41 did have a malfunction of some kind at the range while my friend was firing it; he's an Army vet who knows his way around a rifle but is a novice pistol shooter. Additionally, he has smallish hands, and I had the large backstrap on the gun. He cleared it and kept going, so I didn't see what was up. He's not familiar with the terminology for various malfunctions, but I believe from what he described that it was a failure to feed. Possibly induced by unintentional mag release.
Doesn't the P227 come with a DAO trigger set up? I know the OSP uses the P226 with the DAK trigger, and zero issues were had with reliability. Most of the local LEO's around here are either using M&P, or the XD platform. Hardly any carry a Glock. Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but who knows.
The 227's are da/sa weapons. I dont know if Sig is offering the DAK triggers for that gun. DAO is no longer offered
OSP has always opted for DAO pistols since going to automatics, starting with the Beretta 96. Then the Sig P226 was DAO before they switched over to the DAK. The trigger pull on the P226 DAO was super long, but yet smooth.
I personally think this is stupid.
It is my opinion that 99% of the issues are shooter induced. Guys who I have talked to (PSP) that are shooters have zero problems with their guns.
The issue I have is PSP dumps one gun and transitions to yet another gun that is new and un-proven. And also takes a step backward to a DA/SA pistol with crappy reset.
Everyone going to the same platform makes sense. CoryCop is right about the Glocks though, a few of the guys that I have spoken too want to keep their Glocks. Maybe it was wishful thinking on their part that they would have the option. Will have to try and score one when they transition.
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
There's literally not one modern pistol I'd be confident in owning right now. I wonder if Glock could reverse engineer their original guns that actually worked. :fie:
H&K...
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I am excited to see where the VP9 series goes. Maybe in 3 years time there will be an assortment of sizes and calibers. I'd dump Glock for one, or several I should say. At this point they (HK) are the last bastions.
DHS seems to think so, too.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
BoringGuy45
07-04-14, 12:41
Can we just have Toyota build a fukking pistol that works already?
There's literally not one modern pistol I'd be confident in owning right now. I wonder if Glock could reverse engineer their original guns that actually worked. :fie:
I've never had any issues with my M&P 45, and I've worked it hard. Never had an issue with my Sig; I sold it only because I hated the DAK trigger. Nobody I know has had problems with their Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs, or HKs. CZ's 75 series is still an excellent choice. Walther PPQ is excellent; FNX and FNS pistols are good pieces as well. There's a lot of good pistols out there that are worthy of trusting one's life to.
I think HK has a pretty good reputation here lately of making pistols that work right out of the box. Of course you will pay accordingly for it.
buy an HK. When was the last time you heard of a recall from them?
H&K...
They're not all perfect either. My '93 USP40 has been back to H&K twice for failures to feed & eject (problem solved when they installed the newer captive recoil spring setup). The slide also went back when the front sight insert came out. Finally, they had to replace the captive recoil spring unit when it kept pushing out a roll pin. On the plus side, I have to say that their customer service is good. They gave me two extra hicap mags back during the AWB (in a failed attempt to solve the FTF & FTE problem) and even replaced the original pistol case when the plastic hinge broke. I am confident enough to carry it now, but it has not always been a smooth road.
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