View Full Version : France looking at FAMAS replacement
Grand58742
06-27-14, 21:35
Interesting that they don't have a small arms manufacturing base anymore:
http://www.janes.com/article/38273/france-launches-famas-replacement-tender
France has launched its programme to replace the FAMAS as the French armed forces principle assault rifle in one of the biggest tenders for individual small arms in Europe.
France no longer possesses the industrial capability to manufacture assault rifles after the Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS) factory closed in 2002 following the completion of FAMAS production in 2000. Accordingly, France will have to buy in a foreign design. Possible bidders include the Belgian FN Herstal FN SCAR-L, the Thales Australia F90, the German Heckler & Koch HK416A5, the Italian Beretta ARX160, and the Czech CZ 805 BREN.
Why do I suspect FN has the inside mojo since they are in the French speaking half of Belgium?
The Germans are right out, the CZ rifle looks good but doesn't offer anything the SCAR doesn't also. The Steyr copy could be good, but, if France wants Steyrs they can buy them from EU member Austria. Besides the Australian version of the AUG had teething problems.
Dark horse candidate: F2000. It's made locally (close enough), is a ambi bullpup, and has a integrated 40mm grenade launcher with range finding sight.
H
MountainRaven
06-27-14, 22:16
Why do I suspect FN has the inside mojo since they are in the French speaking half of Belgium?
The Germans are right out, the CZ rifle looks good but doesn't offer anything the SCAR doesn't also. The Steyr copy could be good, but, if France wants Steyrs they can buy them from EU member Austria. Besides the Australian version of the AUG had teething problems.
Dark horse candidate: F2000. It's made locally (close enough), is a ambi bullpup, and has a integrated 40mm grenade launcher with range finding sight.
H
France will totally purchase the same rifle issued by Slovenia.
I think an FN call is probably good. But then again, France passed up the FN Hi-Power, to....
Why do I suspect FN has the inside mojo since they are in the French speaking half of Belgium?
The Germans are right out, the CZ rifle looks good but doesn't offer anything the SCAR doesn't also. The Steyr copy could be good, but, if France wants Steyrs they can buy them from EU member Austria. Besides the Australian version of the AUG had teething problems.
Dark horse candidate: F2000. It's made locally (close enough), is a ambi bullpup, and has a integrated 40mm grenade launcher with range finding sight.
H
I dunno, France is more than willing to buy MP5s from Germany. Anyone here remember when Walther was forced to manufacture handguns at Manurhin in France due to arms restrictions in Germany for domestic use?
Smart money would be on the SCAR or the 416, and for that reason France will likely go with something like the F2000.
France will totally purchase the same rifle issued by Slovenia.
I think an FN call is probably good. But then again, France passed up the FN Hi-Power, to....
But that was back when they had French Union peeps working in French factories to pacify. Now, there is no domestic industry.
And the French do still enjoy sticking a finger in the eye of the Germans every once in a while. Even if they do depend on them to keep the EU going.
I've got the civie version of the SCAR and F2000. Neither one would be great for beating on people with, but troops have been saddled with much worse weapons. Both of my FN products are well made, reasonably accurate, reliable, and durable. Either one is more complex for the end user than a AK, but not as bad as a M16/M4.
H
Grand58742
06-28-14, 10:46
Other than the obvious EU connection, is there any other reason they wouldn't consider a non-EU design like the M4, Tavor, C7, etc?
I know some of their forces already have the SCAR-L and 416 in place which obviously gives a leg up in a competition. Just wondering why they would limit it to an EU based system other than keeping the EU happy.
Wow. I just cannot fathom not having the internal capacity to produce weapons for your country's own defense.
My guess would be there are more countries that don't produce weapons than do...
How many of the 47 countries in Africa (as an example) produce weapons?
There are a few third world countries that produce weapons, Brazil comes to mind, but they're in the minority.
Grand58742
06-28-14, 12:23
My guess would be there are more countries that don't produce weapons than do...
How many of the 47 countries in Africa (as an example) produce weapons?
There are a few third world countries that produce weapons, Brazil comes to mind, but they're in the minority.
He does have a point though. France has always been pretty independent in weapons manufacturing save a few items. So it was surprising they don't have a domestic program capable of meeting the infantry rifle needs.
Ned Christiansen
06-28-14, 12:45
The whole fleet is aged but the drive to replace them got a big boost when they ran out of the original French-spec ammo. France bought replacement ammo on the outside and immediately started having firing pin inertia slamfires. Unfortunately, if you look at the locking system, these inertia slamfires can occur before the bolt is locked. In our homegrown Stoner system this cannot happen.
Out of battery slamfires had injured 37 French troops at the time I was made aware of this.... maybe four years ago.
The shriveling-up of the French arms industry had resulted in a loss of institutional memory: the original French-spec ammo had very hard primers. Politics and bureaucracy put such a drag on solution-finding that, combined with the age of the fleet and waning matieral support and knowledge of the system, it started to make more sense to just start a replacement process.
It could happen anywhere..... when the government and culture show disdain for the making and maintaining of the tools needed to keep the country safe, you have to depend on outside sources.
I've lost touch with the situation other than what can be gleaned from open sources..... I sure hope there is an interim fix in place as opposed to
"hoping" no more soldiers are hurt or putting a moratorium on shooting their service rifles. That would not be good for morale or readiness......
It'd be nice if some US outfit would buy them all, mod to semi-only, address the slamfire issue, and put them on the market here.
There are economic reasons and ties as to why they're limiting themselves to an EU product only.
I wonder if the FAMAS is sold in the US as a semi auto? I have never seen one, maybe one of the next guns century arms will pick up as parts kits and butcher it back together to sell on the US market.
Grand58742
06-28-14, 13:01
It'd be nice if some US outfit would buy them all, mod to semi-only, address the slamfire issue, and put them on the market here.
Remember, this is the same Administration that refuses to import Garands and M1 Carbines because of how evil they are.
I could only imagine the conniption they would have at the Bugle.
kaltesherz
06-28-14, 14:22
There are economic reasons and ties as to why they're limiting themselves to an EU product only.
I wonder if the FAMAS is sold in the US as a semi auto? I have never seen one, maybe one of the next guns century arms will pick up as parts kits and butcher it back together to sell on the US market.
They're considering the Australian made AUG, so no- not just EU production. And yes, there were a very small number of semi FAMAS's imported by Century, they're worth more than my car.
Wow. I just cannot fathom not having the internal capacity to produce weapons for your country's own defense.
Me too! I know there are many countries in the world that don't manufacture their own weapons but France, despite the jokes, hasn't been one of them. The French 75 was a battlefield mainstay of WW1.
It'd be nice if some US outfit would buy them all, mod to semi-only, address the slamfire issue, and put them on the market here.
I think the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" rule would prevent that. At best we might see some FAMAS kits with chopped barrels. Some company like Century will knock out a piece of crap receiver for it and somebody like Green mountain will make an out of spec barrel.
I wonder how hard it would be to simply spring load the FAMAS firing pin.
There are economic reasons and ties as to why they're limiting themselves to an EU product only.
I wonder if the FAMAS is sold in the US as a semi auto? I have never seen one, maybe one of the next guns century arms will pick up as parts kits and butcher it back together to sell on the US market.
There were a few semi auto imports during the 80s, ironically CAI was the importer but had nothing to do with the manufacture. They cost a LOT of money and rarely come up. Here is one that sold for $13,000.00
http://www.prebanarmory.com/french-famas-2/
My money is on the Thales F90. Thales Australia is part of the Thales Group, a French multinational company. Steyr-Mannlicher would probably do the manufacturing or assembly for the contract.
http://www.lithgowarms.com/portfolio-item/f90/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hx82Brl5es
They're considering the Australian made AUG, so no- not just EU production. And yes, there were a very small number of semi FAMAS's imported by Century, they're worth more than my car.
I'm pretty sure that if they go for the Aug they will be buying the Austrian ones made by Steyr.
Austria:
http://i.imgur.com/qcItCX7.png
Hope this helps.
I'm pretty sure that if they go for the Aug they will be buying the Austrian ones made by Steyr.
Austria:
http://i.imgur.com/qcItCX7.png
Hope this helps.
That would be a wild deja vu moment for me. I was in France during Bastille Day of 1980 and my father took the time to point out the unique bullpup rifles to me as they paraded by. With no real knowledge of the FAMAS and my subsequent research into bullpups having made me very aware of the Steyr AUG I mentally substituted the AUG for the rifle I had seen on display that day.
If you asked me in 1984 I would have positively sworn I saw AUGs paraded before me in France a few years earlier. It wouldn't be until many years later that I learned about the FAMAS and realized it was that rifle, and not the AUG I had seen.
Funny how the mind works where you use familiar patterns and objects to fill in knowledge gaps. To this day, even though I know it is a false memory, I can vividly see French troops with green AUGs marching down the street.
Though there are a multitude of reasons, mostly involving politics or nationalism
for not procuring the best weapon for your armed forces.
France should invest in the HK or Sig rifle and get modularity and precise manufacture
from either with tested designs and drop dead dependability.
If I were France I would go with another BP because the troops are already familiar with the handling of one. I'd pick the new Kel-Tec M43. JK! If I really had to pick though it'd probably be the Tavor. It's probably the most evolved combat BP and the folks in Israel make fine weapons.
Though there are a multitude of reasons, mostly involving politics or nationalism
for not procuring the best weapon for your armed forces.
France should invest in the HK or Sig rifle and get modularity and precise manufacture
from either with tested designs and drop dead dependability.
Especially since they might get dropped a lot.
:lol:
MountainRaven
06-29-14, 00:15
I'm pretty sure that if they go for the Aug they will be buying the Austrian ones made by Steyr.
Austria:
http://i.imgur.com/qcItCX7.png
Hope this helps.
Why would they buy them from Austria when they can buy them from a French company?
Especially since they might get dropped a lot.
:lol:
I thought the title was "France looking at FAMAS replacement" not "Italy looking at AR70/90 replacement".
:jester:
Grand58742
06-29-14, 02:22
Especially since they might get dropped a lot.
:lol:
What? And risk breaking the 1913 compatible wine holder?
They are handed over these days.
They're considering the Australian made AUG, so no- not just EU production. And yes, there were a very small number of semi FAMAS's imported by Century, they're worth more than my car.
IIRC,
LAV has one!
USMC_Anglico
06-29-14, 07:26
Hopefully logic will prevail. With all of their recent experience in Africa and Astan, they would do well to go with the SCAR or HK416. Their SF guys already run both of those platforms. The FAMAS is a POS and foisting a replacement in that same genre (AUG, etc.) is a disservice to those troops who have fought and died for operational experience.
Having fought with the French, both FFL and regular army, they don't lack fighting spirit. Their outdated equipment is a limiter and if they are smart they'll upgrade to a more ergonomic rifle system. As they are fond of saying - Bon Chance!
I say they go with the SCAR most likely the 16 not 17
but since it will have total force implications I see the french going with some thing that will have some factor unseen to US eyes that will take prevalence. (size, manual of arms, EU based system)
I dont see them going TAR-21, AUG is reflection of the past, 417 is too "american"
I say the darkhorse is the new Berreta platform
kaltesherz
06-29-14, 14:33
Hopefully logic will prevail. With all of their recent experience in Africa and Astan, they would do well to go with the SCAR or HK416. Their SF guys already run both of those platforms. The FAMAS is a POS and foisting a replacement in that same genre (AUG, etc.) is a disservice to those troops who have fought and died for operational experience.
Having fought with the French, both FFL and regular army, they don't lack fighting spirit. Their outdated equipment is a limiter and if they are smart they'll upgrade to a more ergonomic rifle system. As they are fond of saying - Bon Chance!
I agree completely- I see either the SCAR or 416 winning this and used to make a lot of French jokes till I spent some time with Chasseurs (Mountain Infantry) while passing through Bagram. Just like us, don't judge their military by their government.
Will the French require the rifle be made in France under license like how we require FN and Beretta to produce guns here? I think that the HK416 has a very good chance of being selected since their air force and some units have already adopted it.
Why would they buy them from Austria when they can buy them from a French company?
I thought the title was "France looking at FAMAS replacement" not "Italy looking at AR70/90 replacement".
:jester:
I think I see the ringer: Thales is French.
I suspect that the AUG variant they make for Australia will get the nod. Kinda like how HK got the contract to rebuild the SA80 for the Brits when HK was owned by a English company.
H
Grand58742
06-29-14, 20:00
I think I see the ringer: Thales is French.
I suspect that the AUG variant they make for Australia will get the nod. Kinda like how HK got the contract to rebuild the SA80 for the Brits when HK was owned by a English company.
H
And the $64,000 question will be AR pattern mag or AUG pattern mag.
They adapted the FAMAS to take AR pattern mags so they are already in the system or one would assume so. And while it's not STANAG, enough countries use an AR pattern mag to be considered "official" enough.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.