View Full Version : Charles Daly Preproduction lower build
Lagadelphia
06-07-08, 20:53
I got in on the Pre-Production buy on these in this thread :https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14838.The deal from start to finish went smooth. Today my lower parts kit came in so it was time to build up my first lower.
I used the guide from TOS and followed the instructions. I went at this with just a hammer, screw driver, a 1/16" punch, a drill bit, a chuck key from my drill, and some hex wrenches. The parts kit was CMT/Stag.
Everything went well aside from the bolt catch assembly. I had two problems here. First, I misinterpreted the diagram and put the roll pin in from the wrong side. This resulted in me dinging the receiver with a slip of the drill bit I was using as a punch even though I taped off the area to prevent just such a thing. Had I gone in from the other way, I would have been golden. Lesson learned.
While I would have rather not have dinged it, I'm not upset over the mark other than because it was a bone head move that caused it. It's gonna get marked up from use anyways.
The second issue I had with the bolt catch was that it wouldn't hold the bolt open when function checking it. Comparing it to my Bushmaster bolt catch, it had much more tension and the mag followers wouldn't activate it. They are very lightly used Pmags so I know the mag springs would be good to go. So I swapped the bolt catch from my Bushie to my CD lower and the bolt hold open now worked. I installed the CMT bolt catch in my Bushie and it works fine there.
Since I used some improvised tools to put this together, I am sure some of you are wondering just what the hell I used the chuck key from drill for. Well it turns out that the chuck key handle is the exact same diameter as the front pivot pin. As you all know and I found out, the pivot pin detent can be quite a challenge to put in. My first attempt using a hex wrench thru the pivot pin holes didn't work so well and resulted in a launched detent and spring. Fortunately I was able to find both. I then got a sandwich baggy to put over the lower and saw the chuck key sitting there. lo and behold, it was a perfect fit. So I slid it in and used it to hold down the detent. Then I pushed the pivot pin across to take the key's place and it worked perfectly.
I do have another issue but it is primarily cosmetic. The pistol grip is canted to the left. I'm not sure if the grip is off or the lower. The lower does have some sloppy machining around the trigger area as indicated in this picture:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/lagadelphia/cdlowerarrow.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/lagadelphia/seam1.jpg
Bushmaster on left, CD on right.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/lagadelphia/seam2.jpg
There is a ridge that runs along the center and it is uneven in height and where you mount the trigger guard with the roll pin, if you look down between the ears, it is very noticeable and quite jagged looking. I will get pictures of it late when I have my camera available. This does not interfere with the function, however. My Bushmaster lower also has a slight ridge but it is much less noticeable and and uniform. I am chalking this up to being a preproduction lower. For the price I paid, it is fine since it functions fine. If this was a production unit and I paid full price, I wouldn't be as happy.
There is a lot the satisfaction in doing it yourself and I also learned a lot. It'll be more satisfying when I get a chance to shoot it for the first time.
Next up, building my own upper.
Charles Daly
06-08-08, 12:35
...
I do have another issue but it is primarily cosmetic..... The lower does have some sloppy machining around the trigger area as indicated in this picture:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/lagadelphia/cdlowerarrow.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/lagadelphia/seam1.jpg
Bushmaster on left, CD on right.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/lagadelphia/seam2.jpg
There is a ridge that runs along the center and it is uneven in height and where you mount the trigger guard with the roll pin, if you look down between the ears, it is very noticeable and quite jagged looking. I will get pictures of it late when I have my camera available. This does not interfere with the function, however. My Bushmaster lower also has a slight ridge but it is much less noticeable and and uniform. I am chalking this up to being a preproduction lower. For the price I paid, it is fine since it functions fine. If this was a production unit and I paid full price, I wouldn't be as happy....
The forging "flash" in the trigger guard area is quite typical of most AR's. A few companies machine it away completely but most don't. We compared ours to several other brands, including Colt, BM and RR, and found that it was no better/no worse than them.
I would appreciate comments from other members on this "flash" subject. Do you find it objectionable? Do you think it should be machined away completely knowing that doing so would increase the cost?
I got both of my Preproduction lower's in yesterday and noticed the same thing as you with the machining in the trigger well. I got out several other maker's lowers I have(colt,rra,s&w,dpms,stag,cmmg) and noticed the same thing on all the others, the CD is a little more noticable but for the Price and fast service I am not going to bitch. Just need a good upper to mate them to.(maybe a CD 5.45x39?)
I plan on droping them in to the bottom of the safe for a while waiting to see how well the S&W 5.45x39 uppers work out (maybe we can get CD to start building them) Hint Hint....................
Dave
Since you asked,..why not go above and beyond and spend the extra $1.50 and go the extra thirty seconds to machine the excess flash away so that everything is nice and flush? Things like this obviously don't go unnoticed. Why not stake your name in the AR arena on a high quality product instead of "industry average"? If it were my company, I would insist on it.
...I would appreciate comments from other members on this "flash" subject. Do you find it objectionable? Do you think it should be machined away completely knowing that doing so would increase the cost?
until this post I've never even thought to look at that area of my AR's. Of course I had take a peek at what's in the safe:
- Colt 6920 (purchased in early 2007) had as much unfinished flash at the CD pictured above
- Noveske N4 lower build (purchased several months ago) was finish machined w/no flashing evident
I don't find it objectionable at all (didn't even realize it was there until today). I've never felt it during use, it's not noticeable unless I'm specifically looking for it - I say leave it be...
The forging "flash" in the trigger guard area is quite typical of most AR's. A few companies machine it away completely but most don't. We compared ours to several other brands, including Colt, BM and RR, and found that it was no better/no worse than them.
I would appreciate comments from other members on this "flash" subject. Do you find it objectionable? Do you think it should be machined away completely knowing that doing so would increase the cost?
I say leave it as is...
Just my .02
B
Charles Daly
06-08-08, 22:40
Since you asked,..why not go above and beyond and spend the extra $1.50 and go the extra thirty seconds to machine the excess flash away so that everything is nice and flush? Things like this obviously don't go unnoticed. Why not stake your name in the AR arena on a high quality product instead of "industry average"? If it were my company, I would insist on it.
I did ask and I will consider all responses. If it was only $1.50 and 30 seconds it would be an easy call. But it's not, it's more than that. The additional cost doesn't mean all that much in a finished rifle but it means a lot if we are just selling a stripped or complete lower. This is an extremely competitive market (lowers) and for a $10 bill, people will buy another brand.
And we are staking our name on a high quality product. It's just in areas where it actually means something to the function, reliability and "overall" finish of the rifle. Anyone that has already handled and fired our AR's will attest to that. We go way beyond any "industry average" as you call it. Since the majority of members here will compare any and all comers to Colt, and since our "flash" is the same as Colt's, then I didn't see why we would lose points based on this subject.
The forging "flash" actually means something to some people as it indicates to them that the lowers are actually forged and not cast.
M1A2_Tanker
06-09-08, 06:13
The OP has everyone running to their safes and AR's are flying all over!:D
I got 2 blems and 2 pre-productions and I hadn't noticed anything untill I read this post! I am very satisfied with the whole purshase ,But like everyone else it made me get out my S&W 15T and compare.
The S&W forging flash has been machined. It ''looks'' a little nicer, It was much more pricey. I am just fine with the Flash being there for the added value as i am a budget shopper anyway. Function and Value are more important in my view (in that order). With that said I my opinion is from that of a shooting Enthusiast and not from an Operator or professional, .02
I already hit on the 5.45x39 here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14939 :( 5.45x39 is cheap....and so am I :0
I'm curious to see this when I get my lower. I've never given it much thought either but I know I've seen lowers and thought "wow, that's rough".
Forged lowers with correct dimensions are fine. I have seen more than a few USGI lowers like this.
I will take two if you have a table at the Harrisburg gun show and are selling them for less than $100 each cash on the barrel head.
My Doublestar is completely smooth,it looks good but as long as a lower is in spec I see no problems with it
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PFC-JB/ViktoriasBirthdayParty007.jpg
Lagadelphia
06-09-08, 17:02
I did ask and I will consider all responses. If it was only $1.50 and 30 seconds it would be an easy call. But it's not, it's more than that. The additional cost doesn't mean all that much in a finished rifle but it means a lot if we are just selling a stripped or complete lower. This is an extremely competitive market (lowers) and for a $10 bill, people will buy another brand.
And we are staking our name on a high quality product. It's just in areas where it actually means something to the function, reliability and "overall" finish of the rifle. Anyone that has already handled and fired our AR's will attest to that. We go way beyond any "industry average" as you call it. Since the majority of members here will compare any and all comers to Colt, and since our "flash" is the same as Colt's, then I didn't see why we would lose points based on this subject.
The forging "flash" actually means something to some people as it indicates to them that the lowers are actually forged and not cast.
When I posted this, I was simply posting all of my observations about the lower and my experience in the process putting it all together. I hope it didn't come off as a bash on this lower. I am actually very enthusiastic about what Charles Daly is trying to do here. Coming to forums and asking what folks want and then putting said features into rifles that are competitively priced with manufacturers that don't have the same features is terrific in my book.
Like other posters, I never paid any attention to this area on my already built rifle. Since it did look kind of "off", that is what made me check my other rifle. I have seen a grand total of two lowers in my life, these two. Now after reading that others who have seen quite a few say that this is pretty much normal, I am almost regretting posting about it.
Since it doesn't affect anything, I'd say leave it especially if it would add a significant cost to the machining process. I am a value minded guy and I want the best functioning item for the price, hence the reason why I carry Glocks :D If I can get all of the features that you are putting into your rifle for $10 cheaper if it has a little flashing, I'll take the flashing.
Took some photos the other night.
This photo is, from left to right, Charles Daly, DSA, two Spike's, and a Superior (in order from most flash to least)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2785.jpg
This photo is, from left to right, CD, DSA, Spike's
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_2786.jpg
Charles Daly
06-25-08, 15:32
As a result of discussions here on forging flash, several weeks ago we made a change to the machining of our lowers that has resulted in almost total removal of the flash. It will be another month or so before these new lowers will be seen on the market.
Its a non-issue in my book, I just went out and grabbed the CD lower that I've got, and can't figure out how this bothers people. Are people saying this is something that impacts their finger and causes irritation? Or is this more a matter of people not liking the way the underside of their receiver looks?
I agree that it's a non-issue, except to say that if I'm in the market and can choose from two lowers, one with the flash and one without, I'll pick the one without every time.
Charles Daly
06-26-08, 23:34
As I mentioned previously, our forging flash was identical to Colt's so I thought nothing of leaving it alone (hearing so often how high regard Colt was held in).
However, since we became aware that it was an issue for some, and after we conducted some "re-fixturing" experiments, we found that we could eliminate the flash with only a small increase in machine time.
Though it is only a cosmetic issue with no impact on functionality whatsoever, I decided to make the improvement for the sake of those to whom it mattered.
I trust our consumers will appreciate the "cosmetic" improvement.
Sincerely,
That is one thing I didn't do, and I will try to; compare it to my 5 Colts.
The Colts are all complete guns so it will be more difficult to get a picture like the ones above, but I will give it a shot.
Remember, too, that once prices are identical on lowers people have nothing else to go by but "cosmetics".
Can anyone tell me is the Charles Daly Defense lower High or Low Shelf?
Charles Daly
07-21-08, 22:02
Can anyone tell me is the Charles Daly Defense lower High or Low Shelf?
I am told that they are low shelf.
CD Defense, tell me what name brand of LPK do you use in your lowers?
Charles Daly
07-22-08, 01:10
CD Defense, tell me what name brand of LPK do you use in your lowers?
Lawdog-1, thanks for your posts. I am unable to disclose where we acquire certain parts. I consider that proprietary information. All I can tell you is that they are 100% made in the US.
I know several of our competitors are using LPK's from foreign countries like Israel, Taiwan, etc. Several of these overseas makers have contacted us, wanting to supply us with thier parts and components. All my career I have been an importer, rarely selling US made firearms. However, when we decided to make a high quality line of AR type rifles and carbines, we committed ourselves to only using US made parts and components. I'm not saying that all of what is made overseas is bad, but from what I've seen so far, it's just not as good as what we've sourced here. We are paying a lot more for US made quality, but with this rifle, I think it's worth it.
Sorry I'm rambling along at this late hour. I've disclosed our barrel makers and our lower maker and the rest will have to stay confidential for now.
To increase your comfort level with our guns, you could buy a LPK from us, pay for it with a credit card, take a look at it for a day or two and then send it back to us. When we receive it back we will issue a credit to your credit card for the full amount of your original purchase cost. It's a small package so I don't mind paying the freight to you and you pay the shipping back to us.
This is not something we would normally do, but if you just want to inspect the LPK for quality components and proper specs, then I would be willing to do it this one time. All I would ask for in return is that you post your findings here on M4C.
Let me know.
Thanks again for your interest in CD Defense.
Sincerely,
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