View Full Version : Failed attempt at precision shooting with red-dot
No one I know has a spare scope, so I went out today to see what my barrel likes, what it doesn't, and ended up burning through ammo and not getting the info I wanted(but it was still a good time).
Setup (relevant stuff) is Knights URXiii, centurion 14.5" double chromed FN barrel, and a PA 4moa micro dot (yea yea, Im saving up for a real optic), on bench resting on my bag.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/p_00582_zps9025898e.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/p_00582_zps9025898e.jpg.html)
Last year, I shot the following 3 groups with the same setup as today, but in prone:
60gr TAP top/ 55gr vmax btm
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/60grTAPamp55grVMAX_zpsb0f2225d.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/60grTAPamp55grVMAX_zpsb0f2225d.png.html)
75gr TAP
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/75grTAP_zpse4bb8276.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/75grTAP_zpse4bb8276.png.html)
Today, I shot the following:
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/75grTAP7614_zpse1c75e46.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/75grTAP7614_zpse1c75e46.png.html)
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/win69grsmk_zpse77a4fdf.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/win69grsmk_zpse77a4fdf.png.html)
Surprise! To be fair I bought it for a helo-hog 'hunt', so looks okay to me...
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/bvac64grbonded_zps3cbfaab8.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/bvac64grbonded_zps3cbfaab8.png.html)
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/50grAmericanEaglevarminttip_zps9cde044e.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/50grAmericanEaglevarminttip_zps9cde044e.png.html)
bottom group was last group of day, and I think the disparity in size was all me. Also, the distance between targets was a guess so it may have been less(I was conservative).
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/75gr556superformance_zps8484119e.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/75gr556superformance_zps8484119e.png.html)
Not that the first groups were great, but I was happy with them given the equipment. What I did today was crap! I know its one day, but what I'm thinking is that the smaller dot is easier to center in a dimed (just enough to see the black behind it) red dot, rather than vice-versa. I'd have to try an 8" dot to really test it out. Anyone else try both? If so, what did you find?
The groups are high due to my poi being set to the top of the red dot @ 100yds.
Side notes:
It seems the Superformance accuracy is a lot better than what has been previously reported(older version). I don't know what my TAP bullet is, as its more rounded than the T2 but has a cannelure.
It also seems the 50gr American eagle stuff might be pretty accurate, I'm interested in testing it more for a varmint round as its not even half the price of the other "varmint" loads I tried, and just as or more accurate(maybe). I'm assuming 50gr is too light for coyote? I may be going out to get rid of some and I'm more than likely going to pick up the 60gr TAP.
For targets with 2 groups, I tried "cutting the target in half" with the dot. I learned that it works, but I'm not as consistent as I don't have a solid point of reference. Its hard to tell whats the exact center of a 5.5" circle at 100yds.
Define 'failed'. Hitting anything close to 4MOA precision out to 500m is fairly high Expert as far as that goes. The shooting is actually pretty good, but I'd exclude the following before trying to compare ammo:
I'd be willing to bet that other factors contribute just as much - with any kind of heat haze, shooting off low anything and my accuracy goes to literal crap, period. I'm fairly comfortable compared to most shooting like that, and my ability to even make cohesive looking groups in the first 5 rounds is tricky.
Same issue with tuning the brightness; for the 225m zero that should be trying to set up the top of the dot into the middle of the target, but easily 2/3 of the error is going to be with trying to make an awkward reference hold like that be consistent enough to usefully gauge any differences in ammunition; time of day, lighting, and fatigue (eye/other) are probably going to be a bigger deal.
I think that gargantuan dot is your problem. Having a nice little dot to center in that black target is all the difference. The littlest things bother me and destroy my ability to stack holes.
SilverBullet432
07-06-14, 10:19
Im not expert, but you do have a 4 MOA dot. Looks good to me. At 100, IMO, if I hit the target, its down.
When shooting a circular target at 100 yards, I make sure I see an even amount of black around the red dot when aiming. I also make sure I don't cant the carbine and position my head in the same place behind the Aimpoint every time I mount the weapon to my shoulder. It all adds up, so try it and see if these things work for you.
A 4 MOA dot is rather large for precise aiming. I have a 4 MOA dot on my Aimpoint and don't index the entire dot on the target when engaging at 300 yards. I index part of the dot, be it the bottom or top of the dot for precise shooting. I place the top of the dot at the base of the neck of a silhouette when shooting my carbine at 300 yards. With commercial 55g ball, my goal is to keep 20 shots inside 8" at 300 yards. A lot of groups run under 7" using this technique.
A 4 MOA dot is rather large for precise aiming. I have a 4 MOA dot on my Aimpoint and don't index the entire dot on the target when engaging at 300 yards. I index part of the dot, be it the bottom or top of the dot for precise shooting. I place the top of the dot at the base of the neck of a silhouette when shooting my carbine at 300 yards. With commercial 55g ball, my goal is to keep 20 shots inside 8" at 300 yards. A lot of groups run under 7" using this technique.
I like this idea (even though I can't shoot to 300 nearby). Wonder if it would work just as well at 100 with a black circle dot? Not necessarily to check my zero/hit targets, but just for comparing accuracy of loads.
I think that gargantuan dot is your problem. Having a nice little dot to center in that black target is all the difference. The littlest things bother me and destroy my ability to stack holes.
Same here. I use a 4 MOA T1 and if I have the time to flip up the rear sight (with a folded front) it makes the dot (for my eyes) considerably smaller, more crisp and easier to place on a smaller target. This technique alone has made me completely do away with fixed front sights. Yeah I know Mark. ;)
Rest your eyes every 3-4 shots. Ive found this important especially with 1X optics/irons. Get comfortable. Breath slowly. Breathe in, breathe out while simultaneously begin edging yourself towards the wall of the trigger. Upon full exhale and during respiratory pause break the shot. I use double hearing protection to make the world around me as quiet and calm as possible. Make sure your rifle AND you are directly perpendicular to the target. Yeah its the little things that make a world of difference when trying to keep a group tight.
-Jax
Same here. I use a 4 MOA T1 and if I have the time to flip up the rear sight (with a folded front) it makes the dot (for my eyes) considerably smaller, more crisp and easier to place on a smaller target. This technique alone has made me completely do away with fixed front sights. Yeah I know Mark. ;)
Rest your eyes every 3-4 shots. Ive found this important especially with 1X optics/irons. Get comfortable. Breath slowly. Breathe in, breathe out while simultaneously begin edging yourself towards the wall of the trigger. Upon full exhale and during respiratory pause break the shot. I use double hearing protection to make the world around me as quiet and calm as possible. Make sure your rifle AND you are directly perpendicular to the target. Yeah its the little things that make a world of difference when trying to keep a group tight.
-Jax
Good advice here. It's important to breathe because your eyes dim as they run out of oxygen as you hold your breath.
An Aimpoint isn't a 1x optic any more than a window pane or iron sights are. It's a 0x optic :)
A 4 MOA dot is smaller than the width of an AR front sight. If a shooter can learn to shoot good groups with iron sights, they can learn to shot good groups with a 4 MOA dot. That takes nothing away from the groups MegademiC shot. Shows good, consistent shooting!
A 4 MOA dot is smaller than the width of an AR front sight. If a shooter can learn to shoot good groups with iron sights, they can learn to shot good groups with a 4 MOA dot.
Thats a good point. I'm definitely not there with a dot yet, but my work with irons has come a long way. I guess I need to spend some time with my RD, which is also 4 MOA. I get the feeling that utilizing the dot in the same manner as the FSP(target sitting atop the post/dot and bisecting)will prove more successful than actually covering the target with the dot. That concept will be new to me.
I had convinced myself that longer range work necessitated the use of irons, but this thread has me wanting to prove myself wrong.
I like this idea (even though I can't shoot to 300 nearby). Wonder if it would work just as well at 100 with a black circle dot? Not necessarily to check my zero/hit targets, but just for comparing accuracy of loads.
Currently, I sight my carbines to hit 2" high at 100 yards. I index the top of the red dot on the center of a SR-1 target at 100 yards for low 10 to center X ring hits. The red dot is almost as big as the black area on a SR-1 target and I found this technique easier when shooting in bright sunlight. No matter how you zero, this technique may make it easier to shoot tighter groups.
Canting and head position also affect group size. Sometimes I suggest someone I am coaching place a piece of Velcro on the sweet spot of the buttstock, so they can index their cheek on it for consistent stock weld each time they build a shooting position. If a front sight base is available, I ask them to make sure the FSB is plumb before indexing the red dot or iron sights on the target.
Good luck.
Okay, thanks for the input, all. I'm definitely going to try some different targets next time out - both the B2, and an 8" dot and see what happens. Due to cost, and apparent acceptable accuracy, I'll most likely be using the AE blackbox 50gr varmint.
I think the breathing may have been an issue, and maybe inconsistent cheek-weld. I noticed there may be minor parallax issues with the PA micro.
As for POI/POA, I have it set up to hit the top of the dot at 100yds. I graphed theoretical 60gr TAP ballistics below, the red line is the bottom of the red dot, and the top is the x-axis. I do see some theoretical benefit as you can use the dot as a hold-over. For example, at about 275-300yds the bullet will impact within an inch of the bottom of the dot. That said, you could do the same with a 2moa dot as well.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/chart_zps4dbd7da6.png (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/chart_zps4dbd7da6.png.html)
That is not a "Fail"! What your seeing (Assuming center hold) is the difference of the loads used (Lot#, bullet wts) and the effect of barrel harmonics! If your saying the the fail is the group size then stop using a dot, use a scope instead ! A dot is not made to shoot bug holes.:nono:
I graphed theoretical 60gr TAP ballistics below, the red line is the bottom of the red dot, and the top is the x-axis. I do see some theoretical benefit as you can use the dot as a hold-over. For example, at about 275-300yds the bullet will impact within an inch of the bottom of the dot. That said, you could do the same with a 2moa dot as well.
That chart is a fantastic visual aide. That really sheds some light on the dramatic change of bullet position within the dot relative to trajectory. Thanks for posting it. I recently shot mostly irons at a 12" x 20" steel silhouette at 300 meters, but briefly tried the dot with little success. Considering the dot is also 12" wide at that distance it is no wonder. I like your thinking here, and I'm going to give this a try.
That is not a "Fail"! What your seeing (Assuming center hold) is the difference of the loads used (Lot#, bullet wts) and the effect of barrel harmonics! If your saying the the fail is the group size then stop using a dot, use a scope instead ! A dot is not made to shoot bug holes.:nono:
People do it with irons, I should be able to do it with a dot... Figuring out "how" is a little different though. I remember seeing molon posting a very impressive group with an rds... 3 shot composite int the 1.2" range. I don't have a scope yet, but want to find out what shoots well out of my gun... hence the range trip that led to this thread.
TexasAggie2005
07-08-14, 11:15
http://youtu.be/c_Q3_vwJlNA
Seems about right to me. I've found it hard to make tight groups with a 4moa T1 at 100 yards. But that's not my goal anyway. When I'm shooting with an RDS I just have a goal of shooting certain sized groups at different distances. Bench and free hand.
If I want to get more precision then I use a rifle with a magnified optic. That's when I can really tell more about the rifle's accuracy with different types of ammo. I guess you need to use a different optic tool to find out what the maximum accuracy is for that rifle.
I think your shooting is pretty good.
The chart fits what I have observed with my own setup. I have to hold the bottom of the 4 moa red dot on the top of the head of a B-27 silhouette at 400 yards to get center mass hits with 62g ammunition.
The chart fits what I have observed with my own setup. I have to hold the bottom of the 4 moa red dot on the top of the head of a B-27 silhouette at 400 yards to get center mass hits with 62g ammunition.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm looking forward to trying it out, hopefully this weekend.
Kinda related to precision red dot work, but vickers tactical just posted this.
I say impressive, but my old lady says I'm easily amused...
Aimpoint Distance Challenge: http://youtu.be/c_Q3_vwJlNA
LAV, mighty fine shooting sir.
Wow, with my 42yr old eyes, I'm not sure I could even SEE that target at 600Y (though if it was going to be filmed, I'd have my optometrist hook me up with some binocular-like Rx glasses).
I do wish I had a place to try it--local range only goes to 200Y, and I've never tried it without a 3X behind the 2MOA T1.
MorphCross
07-09-14, 16:41
Kinda related to precision red dot work, but vickers tactical just posted this.
I say impressive, but my old lady says I'm easily amused...
Aimpoint Distance Challenge: http://youtu.be/c_Q3_vwJlNA
LAV, mighty fine shooting sir.
Oh, it's impressive, things that made the difference were experience of both the shooter and the spotter, quality glass for the spotter, large brightly painted targets, and more than likely the ammunition (they never specifically mention what ammo). Also they weren't going for silhouette for accuracy, just for hits.
With a bit more practice and steel silhouettes for actual man shaped testing you would get a better idea of the capability.
Farthest I've gone is 300 with reduced c zone steel with both irons and my "huge" 4moa T-1. Is it a great optic for longer ranges? No, but then again no red dot is. Just gotta balance out what you want. Mission drives the gear train.
I think we loose sight of how well dudes use to shoot irons back in the day at distances we consider magnification only today.
MorphCross
07-09-14, 17:18
Farthest I've gone is 300 with reduced c zone steel with both irons and my "huge" 4moa T-1. Is it a great optic for longer ranges? No, but then again no red dot is. Just gotta balance out what you want. Mission drives the gear train.
I think we loose sight of how well dudes use to shoot irons back in the day at distances we consider magnification only today.
But you also have to consider the sight radius and picture on those old rifles. Simo Hayha used open sights on his Finnish Mosin Nagant because Irons were superior to any optic he had access to at the time.
I can't even imagine hits that far with no magnification. I'll have to try it one of these days.
MountainRaven
07-09-14, 21:36
But you also have to consider the sight radius and picture on those old rifles. Simo Hayha used open sights on his Finnish Mosin Nagant because Irons were superior to any optic he had access to at the time.
Well, in fairness, he wasn't shooting very far.
He was shooting in an Arctic Winter (can you say foggy optics?).
He was probably more used to his own personal Mosin-Nagant, rather than the scoped Swedish Mauser (donated by Sweden) he was issued to use as a sniper.
And something like half of his kills were made with an SMG - firing from an open-bolt.
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