View Full Version : LEO and Possible Lawyer Question
Have recently found our front yard rolled. If I were to catch the perps. in the act, could I hold(literally) them until LE arrives? Being involved in BJJ for yrs., I am fairly confident I could get ahold of someone with very minimal discomfort to the person. I do not want them to be able to get away with this on a regular basis. If they are on foot, there is no license plate to get and following them home may or may not be an option.
Just looking for any advice on how to deal with them if I catch them red handed. I want to stay within the confines of the law and common sense. Please feel free to give advice, tips, past experiences, etc.
Grand58742
07-06-14, 16:07
Have recently found our front yard rolled. If I were to catch the perps. in the act, could I hold(literally) them until LE arrives? Being involved in BJJ for yrs., I am fairly confident I could get ahold of someone with very minimal discomfort to the person. I do not want them to be able to get away with this on a regular basis. If they are on foot, there is no license plate to get and following them home may or may not be an option.
Just looking for any advice on how to deal with them if I catch them red handed. I want to stay within the confines of the law and common sense. Please feel free to give advice, tips, past experiences, etc.
Keyword in your entire scenario is bolded.
Any hands on or even the perception of "discomfort" will cause hot water you probably don't want especially if it's kids. Because some parents just won't understand why you decided to assault their little precious that never did any harm.
I would be a huge fan of the scared straight method myself. And if that involves you scaring the living shit of out them to where they won't come back and doesn't require any physical hands on, you've won.
Eurodriver
07-06-14, 16:13
If I were to catch the perps. in the act, could I hold(literally) them until LE arrives? Being involved in BJJ for yrs., I am fairly confident I could get ahold of someone with very minimal discomfort to the person.
Not really. If they are no longer on your property the LEOs would get better stats for the kidnapping charge on you than the littering citation they'd give the turd burglars rolling your house. Expect a transport to the county jail for processing if they roll up and you've got a 15 year old (or younger) in an arm bar that you chased down the street. For reference, I used to TP houses while I was still in elementary school. You really think it's wise to tackle an 11 year old? Even if you don't end up in jail or charged, the news media loves shit like that. Bonus points if the kid is black and you're white.
After all, how are you going to prove the person you're holding against his will is the person who rolled your house? They will deny deny deny and you'll end up on the nightly news as the BJJ master that beats up little kids or the old guy that follows little kids home. It sucks and it's shitty, but unless you've got LEO buddies your options are fairly limited as most Depts will toss your complaint right into the garbage can. Of course, my local agency is pretty busy getting into shootouts with gang members. Yours might have less to do.
A better idea would be to install motion activated lights, and get a dog that alerts you to a ruckus in the front yard. A good camera would help but no one would be able to make a positive ID from any camera you would have on you at the time with the distance and darkness involved. If they're not too old (meaning, you're not getting rolled because you cut off a 25 year old stoner in traffic and he followed you home) you running out of your house with a flashlight screaming might be enough to get them to never come back.
Of course, if they're anything like the teenagers around here they would just escalate the situation by throwing rocks into your windows a few weeks later. Or shoot at you as you came out of your house. Or break into your house the next time you left.
My house got TP'd quite a few times a few years ago. Cops called and showed every time. They said "what else do we have to do at 2am in this small town".
One night these kids got BRAVE and parked their cars in front of my house. I called the cops and then let my 150lb Malamute out on a 250 foot retractable cable that was bolted to my front porch(that stupid dog would sit in the front yard in 100+ degree temps and refuse to come inside) to chase them down the street. Cops rolled up and I was sitting outside with the dog. Cops towed their two cars(presumably while these kids hid in the woods a couple hundred yards away and watched it all unfold). Dont know what the cops did after that, but house never got TP'd again.
montanadave
07-06-14, 17:43
My house got TP'd quite a few times a few years ago. Cops called and showed every time. They said "what else do we have to do at 2am in this small town".
One night these kids got BRAVE and parked their cars in front of my house. I called the cops and then let my 150lb Malamute out on a 250 foot retractable cable that was bolted to my front porch(that stupid dog would sit in the front yard in 100+ degree temps and refuse to come inside) to chase them down the street. Cops rolled up and I was sitting outside with the dog. Cops towed their two cars(presumably while these kids hid in the woods a couple hundred yards away and watched it all unfold). Dont know what the cops did after that, but house never got TP'd again.
Nicely done.
Let me clarify. I would only consider going hands on if they were still on my property. So, they are on my property and physically holding them there is the only option I have that would allow for them to be apprehended by LE.
What are my options at that point?
The house is always lit up with plenty of floodlights. They were no deterrent at all.
I have two very small children and cannot imagine why someone would do this. Don't care. I worry it may escalate further and would like to nip this in the bud. I hope this isn't a rock/hard place scenario.
Outlander Systems
07-06-14, 17:46
Let me give you some advice...
...an ass-whipping hurts temporarily...law suits hurt for a LONG time.
Catch the perps on video and sue the parents.
The problem nowadays is the, "Little Johnny is an AAAAAAngel" shit. All I know...my dad was scary enough to where I had not the ball sacks to try any shit as a kid.
Three words: Remote. Activated. Sprinklers.
Seriously, just get proof, and handle it through legal channels...or fire up the sprinkler system!
BufordTJustice
07-06-14, 17:58
Record and report. Any other rec has to much risk for you.
What the kids need is to get their fuggin asses beat. What will likely be best for you is criminal mischief charges and possibly a civil lawsuit as well.
Eurodriver
07-06-14, 18:01
Let me clarify. I would only consider going hands on if they were still on my property. So, they are on my property and physically holding them there is the only option I have that would allow for them to be apprehended by LE.
What are my options at that point?
The house is always lit up with plenty of floodlights. They were no deterrent at all.
I have two very small children and cannot imagine why someone would do this. Don't care. I worry it may escalate further and would like to nip this in the bud. I hope this isn't a rock/hard place scenario.
Gotcha. The biggest issue is that neither the law nor you can really do anything effective in this situation.
Even if you get video, good video, how are you going to know who it is you're looking at?
Also, it was fourth of July. We had assholes throwing firecrackers in our backyard that night. Maybe you were just a random target and you'll never have any other problems.
Rolled? is that the same as TP'd?
Isnt any sort of detaining against someones will against the law, given the abundance of dumb laws? Kidnapping, unlawful detention, battery, terroristic threats.... ?
Video, police reports.
Isnt any sort of detaining against someones will against the law, given the abundance of dumb laws? Kidnapping, unlawful detention, battery, terroristic threats.... ?
Exactly the sort of stuff I had considered which led me to ask on here what are the options? Multiple heads are better than just mine.
I am going to hide out and if I catch them in the act, will jump out screaming like a madman while throwing the little "poppers"(as in small child safe firework) on the ground. Maybe I can make someone piss/shit themselves and they'll find the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
My concern is that if it turned out to be some young punks and they decided to get physical. Not too worried about taking an ass whipping, but the ramifications if I had to defend(physically-no firearms!) myself; even if I am being attacked on my property.
Shoot them, you don't know if that's TP or dynamite.
It is never a good idea to use any kind of force to defend or recover property. Is it legal...I have no idea what your local state laws are, but it is still a really bad idea, for all of the reasons people have mentioned. If you accidentally hurt one of the kids it would be a very very easy lawsuit.
I would strongly advise against physical touching, you or your dog, booby trapping etc. Get some cameras, get some bright lights and call the cops.
I know it's frustrating, but especially in urban areas using BJJ against a 12 yr old is a pretty fast way to screw your life up.
I am going to hide out and if I catch them in the act, will jump out screaming like a madman while throwing the little "poppers"(as in small child safe firework) on the ground. Maybe I can make someone piss/shit themselves and they'll find the juice isn't worth the squeeze..
Honestly, I wouldn't even do that. That sounds like an easy case for negligence if someone gets hurt, has a heart attack, etc etc. don't think for a second just because someone is trespassing will absolve you of liability.
Shoot them, you don't know if that's TP or dynamite.Or if you could just lure 'em inside, BAM.... I kid, I kid. As mentioned before, you should hope it was a one time thing and if it continues hit them in the only place you can in this neutered society, their parents checkbook. Just coming forth with a pic of little Johnny caught red handed from the police using the term "liable for damages" will probably be enough to wake parents up. If you want to press your luck you might be able to get lil Johnny to pay for a new roof, maybe even damages to car needing new paint job.. Again, I kid.
First, questions to the original poster:
Has this happened before?
Do you have a suspicion of who it is?
My thoughts:
I would try to avoid situations that have the potential to escalate into violence if I could safely do so.
You may find yourself facing multiple assailants/weapons/a harder fight then you expected. It may escalate beyond what you expected or intended and you may wind up having to hurt someone worse than you expected.
You can even find yourself being the next Zimmerman.
Let it go.. Call the cops and let it go.. Anything more will risk major problems.. They'll grow up, leave and the the next age group of kids will arrive... JMO
TriviaMonster
07-07-14, 00:25
Just get some security cameras set up in the front. You can get a cheap-o system from China for like 50 bucks. Even fake ones will deter people.
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montanadave
07-07-14, 08:25
Question for the OP. Any kids in school?
SomeOtherGuy
07-07-14, 10:58
I like the ideas for lawn sprinklers, cameras, and maybe a big dog sleeping in the front yard (depending on the particular dog).
There might be some statute on the books where it is technically legal for you to detain the perps, but as most have said, it's not likely to turn out well for you and just isn't worth the risk.
I have wondered about the utility of a paintball marking gun for this type of issue, but I do NOT recommend going that route.
I like the ideas for lawn sprinklers, cameras, and maybe a big dog sleeping in the front yard (depending on the particular dog).
There might be some statute on the books where it is technically legal for you to detain the perps, but as most have said, it's not likely to turn out well for you and just isn't worth the risk.
I have wondered about the utility of a paintball marking gun for this type of issue, but I do NOT recommend going that route.
NO. That in many states that could actually rise to a crime, not just civil liability for battery.
Holy crap there is some serious talk about potentially assault, kidnapping, suing, and costly equipment, etc. just for getting your yard rolled. Back in my day it was SOP for teens :)
My advice is to just suck it up and let it go. The more fuss you put up and the more intricate your equipment and capture techniques, the more they will probably try to repeatedly get you.
Versus getting bored and moving on to the next guy that will get himself worked up and his blood pressure boiling.
NO. That in many states that could actually rise to a crime, not just civil liability for battery.
Simunitions!
No kids in school. Very young children.
Taken so seriously b/c when in college made it a crusade to pound the piss out of any and all white supremacists I ran across. There are many in that area. Had reason to believe most likely "discovered" in last place we lived. Supposedly an SOS out on me for a while yrs. ago.
Could it simply have been an isolated, random TP'ing? Surely. But I must consider other explanations for obvious reasons. Moving soon to new house that will have major/massive security upgrades. Not there yet. As we are all aware, there are only very limited options for LE at this time so it falls on me. For all I know it could be TP'ing as a message followed by kicks on the front door. That is why I placed such an emphasis on catching/holding/identifying the culprits.
Eurodriver
07-07-14, 14:43
No kids in school. Very young children.
Taken so seriously b/c when in college made it a crusade to pound the piss out of any and all white supremacists I ran across. There are many in that area. Had reason to believe most likely "discovered" in last place we lived. Supposedly an SOS out on me for a while yrs. ago.
Could it simply have been an isolated, random TP'ing? Surely. But I must consider other explanations for obvious reasons. Moving soon to new house that will have major/massive security upgrades. Not there yet. As we are all aware, there are only very limited options for LE at this time so it falls on me. For all I know it could be TP'ing as a message followed by kicks on the front door. That is why I placed such an emphasis on catching/holding/identifying the culprits.
Are you saying that the people TPing your house are white supremacists and that you believe this is will escalate?
I know we all like to be prepared and consider the worst possible scenario and then be ready for it, but I think you are stretching a bit.
It takes a long time to TP a house. Its also not very damaging. Much easier to throw a brick into a window or spray paint racist remarks on the driveway.
99% sure your problem is young teens bored on a holiday weekend.
No kids in school. Very young children.
Taken so seriously b/c when in college made it a crusade to pound the piss out of any and all white supremacists I ran across. There are many in that area. Had reason to believe most likely "discovered" in last place we lived. Supposedly an SOS out on me for a while yrs. ago.
Could it simply have been an isolated, random TP'ing? Surely. But I must consider other explanations for obvious reasons. Moving soon to new house that will have major/massive security upgrades. Not there yet. As we are all aware, there are only very limited options for LE at this time so it falls on me. For all I know it could be TP'ing as a message followed by kicks on the front door. That is why I placed such an emphasis on catching/holding/identifying the culprits.
Ehh, I feel like its pretty safe to say the Aryans aren't the ones that TP'd your house over a grudge. I worked in a gang unit a for a little while and they usually just kill people when they have a problem with them...can't say I ever saw case of the TPing for revenge...:secret:
Whatever you do, I would highly advise against touching or holding someone captive over minor property damage. Like I said, states can vary, but body slamming some kid to the ground is probably going to get you in some trouble.
montanadave
07-07-14, 14:46
Damn. Well, it was bound to catch up with ya sooner or later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z75DN5r_6H4
All kidding aside, I hope it's merely a random prank with no future recurrences or additional headaches.
I would say that is a possibility but not a probability. Have to consider. Started out similar to this in last place we lived; and escalated.
Euro- Sounds fuc**** funny the way what you wrote reads. White supremacists TP'ing houses!
From my experiences, the little wannabe's start sh** in a "mild" manner that escalates when the full blown types get involved.
I would say that is a possibility but not a probability. Have to consider. Started out similar to this in last place we lived; and escalated.
Euro- Sounds fuc**** funny the way what you wrote reads. White supremacists TP'ing houses!
From my experiences, the little wannabe's start sh** in a "mild" manner that escalates when the full blown types get involved.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/163/032/124.gif
sorry, but this is just silly. If that is a real concern then you need to notify your local LEO gang unit immediately, those people do not play around.
SomeOtherGuy
07-07-14, 15:33
Taken so seriously b/c when in college made it a crusade to pound the piss out of any and all white supremacists I ran across. There are many in that area. Had reason to believe most likely "discovered" in last place we lived. Supposedly an SOS out on me for a while yrs. ago.
Could it simply have been an isolated, random TP'ing? Surely. But I must consider other explanations for obvious reasons. Moving soon to new house that will have major/massive security upgrades. Not there yet. As we are all aware, there are only very limited options for LE at this time so it falls on me. For all I know it could be TP'ing as a message followed by kicks on the front door. That is why I placed such an emphasis on catching/holding/identifying the culprits.
If you believe this is something organized, then, like jmoney said, you need to talk to your local police right away, and explain why you think it is something more than teenagers being dumb teenagers.
If I'm reading your first paragraph right, it sounds as if you did your own illegal actions in the past, and it might be coming back to haunt you. If I were in that position, and especially in your part of the country (I've found it in other posts by you, but won't state it here), I would be inclined to move to an entirely different area.
Have clarified in PM's other details as to why could possibly be more than just TP'ing. Maybe just TP'ing, maybe not. Don't know.
Will report back local LE reaction/ideas/response, etc. when/if appropriate.
Already moved. Moving again very soon to much more secure house.
Point of post was to figure out what, if anything, could be done physically to hold someone until LE arrived to get an identity. Answer seems to be can't.
Have recently found our front yard rolled. If I were to catch the perps. in the act, could I hold(literally) them until LE arrives? Being involved in BJJ for yrs., I am fairly confident I could get ahold of someone with very minimal discomfort to the person. I do not want them to be able to get away with this on a regular basis. If they are on foot, there is no license plate to get and following them home may or may not be an option.
Just looking for any advice on how to deal with them if I catch them red handed. I want to stay within the confines of the law and common sense. Please feel free to give advice, tips, past experiences, etc.
If you catch them red handed, videotape them and contact the police.
Eurodriver
07-07-14, 17:14
6933, I read your PM and highly recommend notifying local LEOs and forgive me for not taking this more seriously. You might even be best served by having this thread deleted. You got your answer, no need to keep the Info out there.
Have clarified in PM's other details as to why could possibly be more than just TP'ing. Maybe just TP'ing, maybe not. Don't know.
Will report back local LE reaction/ideas/response, etc. when/if appropriate.
Already moved. Moving again very soon to much more secure house.
Point of post was to figure out what, if anything, could be done physically to hold someone until LE arrived to get an identity. Answer seems to be can't.
Some states have pretty clear "citizen's arrest statutes", but generally, restricting the ability of someone from leaving by force is a bad idea. If this is a legitimate dangerous issue then like eurdriver said, you should delete this thread. Posting about things like this on the internet can be used to show the formation of premeditation...
If it is a legitimate threat, delete, contact the police. Stay inside. Once you leave the legitimate safety of your home to confront someone it opens up a whole pandora's box of issues. Even if you are "legally in the right", things can always go another way.
I want to roll his house because he started this thread.
Gun forums aren't what they use to be.
In first post, bad idea:
I am going to hide out and if I catch them in the act, will jump out screaming like a madman while throwing the little "poppers"(as in small child safe firework) on the ground. Maybe I can make someone piss/shit themselves and they'll find the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
My concern is that if it turned out to be some young punks and they decided to get physical. Not too worried about taking an ass whipping, but the ramifications if I had to defend(physically-no firearms!) myself; even if I am being attacked on my property.
Then we later learn:
Taken so seriously b/c when in college made it a crusade to pound the piss out of any and all white supremacists I ran across. There are many in that area. Had reason to believe most likely "discovered" in last place we lived. Supposedly an SOS out on me for a while yrs. ago.
Could it simply have been an isolated, random TP'ing? Surely. But I must consider other explanations for obvious reasons. Moving soon to new house that will have major/massive security upgrades. Not there yet. As we are all aware, there are only very limited options for LE at this time so it falls on me. For all I know it could be TP'ing as a message followed by kicks on the front door. That is why I placed such an emphasis on catching/holding/identifying the culprits.
OMFG!
So you had some white supremacists that you beat the crap out of years ago, and you think this might be related to this, or even them?
And you want to leave the safety of your house unarmed to go after these unknown person or persons in a situation where no one's safety is at stake?
And these are people who you are afraid might be the type to kick in your door, a situation that would justify lethal force as a response on your part.
Yet you are wanting to leave the safety of your house and go after these people unarmed, and in doing so create a confrontation that has a huge potential to escalate into violence--a situation that you created by leaving the safety of your house when no ones safety was at stake.
Regardless of the outcome, you will be seen the one who initiated the physical confrontation by leaving the safety of your house to confront or hunt someone over a relatively trivial matter.
I can understand that it is upsetting and frustrating to be on the receiving end of this, but I am concerned that your actions will lead to a much worse situation for you.
This is such a bad idea on so many levels that words fail me.
Ed L.- I understand where you are at, but there is more to the story than shown here. I also understand your reaction to my perceived actions. Remember, I am just here looking for suggestions and I have done nothing to this point as far as trying to get ahold of someone. The point of the thread was to find out how to positively identify someone so the nature of the threat/no threat can be divined.
Really, at this point LE has its' hands tied. What can they realistically do? Very, very slim chance they would be caught if I called 911. So, how do I figure out if this is a warning shot or just some kids? Perfect result is getting someone identified and going from there. Just how is this to be accomplished? I am all ears.
6933,
I understand what you are saying. I don't have an solution. I can only point out that your considered course of action is a very bad idea for the reasons that I and other people have enumerated.
In the very best case scenario, your proposed actions could put you in more legal trouble than the kid you catch: (assault, battery, unlawful detainment/imprisonment). It goes downhill from there.
If you think going after someone who is TPing your lawn is worth possible criminal charges, legal fees, civil suits if you injure them, possible arrest and criminal records that could interfere with your ability to own & purchase firearms, etc, I don't know what to tell you.
So you used to think it was ok to have a crusade which you hunted down people you disagreed with and assault them, but no you are a cry baby over toilet paper in your yard? And now you want to physically use force to restrain them?
Report the incident to the police and call a psychiatrist. You need help. I mean this in the most sincere way as possible. I'm not attempting to be derogatory, but it will help you not to be so intolerant of ignorant people and help you recognize that you have to live with things you cannot change in the world and possibly dampen the obvious vengeful nature you have against what is likely just bored children. Think about this, you openly admit to doing illegal things as a younger man and now you're butt hurt over toilet paper---going into the internet trying to determine how far you can go to apprehend them and remain legal.
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Ed L.- I understand where you are at, but there is more to the story than shown here. I also understand your reaction to my perceived actions. Remember, I am just here looking for suggestions and I have done nothing to this point as far as trying to get ahold of someone. The point of the thread was to find out how to positively identify someone so the nature of the threat/no threat can be divined.
Really, at this point LE has its' hands tied. What can they realistically do? Very, very slim chance they would be caught if I called 911. So, how do I figure out if this is a warning shot or just some kids? Perfect result is getting someone identified and going from there. Just how is this to be accomplished? I am all ears.
Game cameras for close up shots and regular security cameras for constant monitoring. Also putting up a "no trespassing" sign if you don't have a fence might help depending on your state.
With a game cam you'll probably get a lot of false positives, which is why you need a regular camera system to get the time stamp.
I spent my career working with kids in different settings. I promise you that your action plan will land you in jail. You'll end up pleading to a high level misdemeanor after paying 1000's of dollars in legal fees, and then you will be supervised by the local adult probation department, paying their fees and pissing in their cups and doing what they order you to do. Now the civil suits(one per kid)start. No more CHL's. Get ready to be rejected after completing a yellow form.
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