View Full Version : Extractor Spring Insert?
What is the purpose of the insert?
Rifle is blue and Carbine is back right?
You have the colors right. My understanding is that a spring that small can only exert so much force, the insert adds additional force and life to the spring over the long haul.
Whether I'm right or wrong, someone will be along to give you an engineers answer and an equation with more numbers than NASA used to put a man on the moon. :)
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BufordTJustice
07-07-14, 13:34
Among other things, it prevents the spring from squirming laterally as it compresses.....therefor giving it more "strength" along it's linear axis. It essentially keeps it straight so that it only works on one axis.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Thank you.
Among other things, it prevents the spring from squirming laterally as it compresses.....therefor giving it more "strength" along it's linear axis. It essentially keeps it straight so that it only works on one axis.
Is "squirming laterally" a genuine engineering term? [emoji12]
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BufordTJustice
07-07-14, 21:16
Is "squirming laterally" a genuine engineering term? [emoji12]
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Haha. Only for members of WECSOG. ;)
1) The insert acts as a vibration damper to help reduce extractor bounce.
2) As mentioned above it helps to keep the spring from kinking.
3) According to the Crane extractor spring tests, using the original carbine spring, after about 1000rds the spring did very little to maintain extractor tension and the insert did most of the work. This is why I use a Defender D ring in all of my guns with the original rifle spring (the weak one). "O" rings are not equal to Defender rings in performance, durability or reliability. What you are paying for with the Defender ring is the time, cost and expertise that went into developing it. Crane said the Defender was still working well at 20,000 rds.
4)) From what I have read, the blue and black inserts are the same. The different colors were so the armorers could tell the difference between rifle and carbine extractor springs when they used different springs.
BufordTJustice
07-08-14, 13:47
Personally, I prefer to use the Springco 5-coil CS extractor spring in all my guns. I've got about 6k rounds on my 5 coil with a black insert and it still has PLENTY of strength (I still need some padded pliers to seat the extractor so I can drive the retaining pin into the bolt hole). Same with the one in my wife's 14.5" BCM middy....she has about 4k rounds. I know Gunz has more than that through his Springco 5-coil. IIRC, his is in an SBR running suppressed.
Spring steel and design has come a LONG way since the inception of the original rifle spring. Otherwise the Colt copper-washed spring wouldn't have replaced the rifle spring (which I have to assume that CRANE played a part in).
Personally, I prefer to use the Springco 5-coil CS extractor spring in all my guns. I've got about 6k rounds on my 5 coil with a black insert and it still has PLENTY of strength (I still need some padded pliers to seat the extractor so I can drive the retaining pin into the bolt hole). Same with the one in my wife's 14.5" BCM middy....she has about 4k rounds. I know Gunz has more than that through his Springco 5-coil. IIRC, his is in an SBR running suppressed.
Spring steel and design has come a LONG way since the inception of the original rifle spring. Otherwise the Colt copper-washed spring wouldn't have replaced the rifle spring (which I have to assume that CRANE played a part in).
Are you using the o-rings also or just the spring and insert?
BufordTJustice
07-08-14, 14:27
Are you using the o-rings also or just the spring and insert?
I only use the spring and black insert. I'm a 240lb weightlifter and I don't think I could get the damn thing installed with an o-ring, much less a Defender D-ring. ;)
So if Sprinco makes good extractor springs and good buffer springs that last longer then most buffer springs. How are there ejector springs? Its the one spring that I have not heard of really be talked about here.
BufordTJustice
07-08-14, 18:28
So if Sprinco makes good extractor springs and good buffer springs that last longer then most buffer springs. How are there ejector springs? Its the one spring that I have not heard of really be talked about here.
I generally don't mess with ejector springs unless ejection is erratic. I have never had an issue with using the following bolts and a Springco 5-coil extractor spring:
LMT, Colt, FNH, Rainier Arms, BCM, CMT, Spikes, Noveske, and PSA.
I have heard of some people experiencing improper ejection after upgrading their extractor spring, but this points to either a burr on the bolt face, an improperly dimensioned bolt face, or a weak (failed) ejector spring.
So, to answer your question, I'm confident they are as excellent as their other springs....but I have never needed to swap a factory spring for one.
Heavy Metal
07-08-14, 19:17
I only use the spring and black insert. I'm a 240lb weightlifter and I don't think I could get the damn thing installed with an o-ring, much less a Defender D-ring. ;)
Because of its profile, the D Ring is far, far easier to install than the O Ring.
BufordTJustice
07-08-14, 19:26
Because of its profile, the D Ring is far, far easier to install than the O Ring.
Thank you. That's good to know.
If you use a five coil spring be sure the spring doesn't "coil bind" and limit extractor travel. I've had this happen with a couple of bolts when I tried the five coil spring.
BufordTJustice
07-08-14, 20:46
If you use a five coil spring be sure the spring doesn't "coil bind" and limit extractor travel. I've had this happen with a couple of bolts when I tried the five coil spring.
I can't speak for the other 5-coil springs, but the Springco has no bind. Thank you for the advice.
EDIT: I just checked a Wolff 5-coil XP I have on hand for cleaning in a BCM bolt and it doesn't bind either. Has about 500 rounds of mostly Federal M193 through it according to the owner.
I also have Sprinco extractor springs in some of my bolts and their ejector springs. I just haven't had the time to shoot lately and form an opinion on the ejector springs.
Regalkismet
07-09-14, 01:22
Anyone use the Tubbs extractor and ejector Springs? I recently purchased a couple sets of the Tubbs and the Sprinco extractor and ejector Springs....
So if Sprinco makes good extractor springs and good buffer springs that last longer then most buffer springs. How are there ejector springs? Its the one spring that I have not heard of really be talked about here.
They don't last longer and there isn't a soul on this forum that could prove otherwise on a bet. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count for scheiße. USGI springs work and always have. There is just no reason to use ANY of this aftermarket junk on a fighting gun. The race gun scene is a whole 'nother story.
If you use a five coil spring be sure the spring doesn't "coil bind" and limit extractor travel. I've had this happen with a couple of bolts when I tried the five coil spring.
What brand of spring was it? How do you know it was coil bind and not simply installed incorrectly? The extractor spring only has to deflect 0.015 of an inch to allow the extractor to clear the rim of the case.
Anyone use the Tubbs extractor and ejector Springs? I recently purchased a couple sets of the Tubbs and the Sprinco extractor and ejector Springs....
I only have to look at the DT ejector and extractor spring to know that they are JUNK. Ask yourself why Colt extractor and ejector springs have squared and ground ends and why the DT springs and most, if not all, others are open ended? Now ask yourself why an open ended spring is not the right choice for the applications were discussing.
sinlessorrow
07-09-14, 13:19
Since late 2006 when Colt got wide spread issuance(no idea if that's a word) of it's enhanced copper wash spring has has become the only extractor spring out there.
It goes in everything from the M16 to the CQBR, and no longer is an O-ring used.
And yes there is a material and strength difference in the blue and black insert, but black is the only one used anymore.
IIRC the five coil extractor spring was an early version from Sprinco. The bolt and extractor was BCM. The spring worked OK in a Colt bolt and extractor. I spoke with the owner of Springco at the time and he was aware of problems with some bolt/extractor combos.
The spring was installed properly (I've done several dozen extractor spring installs). The extractor cleared the case rim (just barely) but it was clearly bottoming out before the extractor has reached its full travel. Changing to the Colt gold spring fixed the problem. Now I only use the Defender ring with the original rifle spring and no insert. This on the advice of the people that make the Defender ring.
Works like a charm.
I can't speak to the extractor and ejector springs (yet), but I can to the actions springs. I have an A5 kit on all of my AR's. The one BCM lower has over 24K rounds on it with the original Sprinco spring. Not only are they slightly longer and more consistent than every single Colt spring I have purchased through Brownells, but they last longer from what I have seen.
They don't last longer and there isn't a soul on this forum that could prove otherwise on a bet. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count for scheiße. USGI springs work and always have. There is just no reason to use ANY of this aftermarket junk on a fighting gun. The race gun scene is a whole 'nother story.
What brand of spring was it? How do you know it was coil bind and not simply installed incorrectly? The extractor spring only has to deflect 0.015 of an inch to allow the extractor to clear the rim of the case.
I only have to look at the DT ejector and extractor spring to know that they are JUNK. Ask yourself why Colt extractor and ejector springs have squared and ground ends and why the DT springs and most, if not all, others are open ended? Now ask yourself why an open ended spring is not the right choice for the applications were discussing.
I can't speak to the extractor and ejector springs (yet), but I can to the actions springs. I have an A5 kit on all of my AR's. The one BCM lower has over 24K rounds on it with the original Sprinco spring. Not only are they slightly longer and more consistent than every single Colt spring I have purchased through Brownells, but they last longer from what I have seen.
I can't argue with your experience. I replace my action springs annually whether they need it or not. Sprinco's are $20 a pop. That's three years of new Colt springs and all of my karbeans run just fine...
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Heavy Metal
07-09-14, 19:41
I replace my action springs when they fail to meet minimum length like the TM specifies.
That lower has had that set up now for about 4.5 years. I simply prefer them to OEM ones. To each his own.
I can't argue with your experience. I replace my action springs annually whether they need it or not. Sprinco's are $20 a pop. That's three years of new Colt springs and all of my karbeans run just fine...
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The extractor cleared the case rim (just barely) but it was clearly bottoming out before the extractor has reached its full travel. Changing to the Colt gold spring fixed the problem. Now I only use the Defender ring with the original rifle spring and no insert. This on the advice of the people that make the Defender ring.
Works like a charm.
Bottoming out? Are you saying the extractor was reaching the mechanical limit of its travel or your certain coil bind was limiting it? How far the extractor moves past the minimum distance required to fit over the rim of the case is irrelevant.
Changing to a Colt "gold"" spring allowed the extractor its full range of travel. The guy at Sprinco said they were aware of the issue and were coming out with a modified spring to fix it. The extractor just barely cleared the case rim and the travel was very stiff at that point. OK or not IMO it was not how it was designed to work and my other bolt carriers didn't have the issue.
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