View Full Version : Inconsistent COAL because of case or bullet length?
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 09:55
I loaded my first 32 rounds last night of Winchester Primer, 77 SMK, 8208XBR. Trying to load match ammo for my 18inch AR15 Powder is ranging from 22.0 to 23.4 (ladder test cartridge).
This is my first time loading rifle and I was told case length did not matter for COAL just as long the case length did not exceeded 1.760'
Brass was once first brass that ranged from 1.735 to 1.760. I ran these through a SB Full Sizer (RCBS). Set the bullet seating die to give COAL of 2.260 (magazine length . Load up another round and its 2.253, 2.240, 2.262. It's all over the place. I did not trim the brass since it was not over 1.760. I did measure the bullets thinking it was that but I was only seeing a change of 0.003-4. Not the 0.01 change I was seeing.
So I got on here and a search what Google hit on but guys were saying they are getting small changes to .005-9 not .01-2.
Thoughts?
Press is a Less single stage
RCBS SB full die and Bullet seating
Lyman Full sizer die and Bullet seating die
I did notice the Lyman's bullet seating guide (the part that actually touches the bullet) sat deeper on the bullet vs the RCBS being smaller (grabs at closer to the tip vs Lyman)
Brass length has no impact on COAL.
Also, you CAN NOT measure COAL with OTM bullets. The meplat (hollow tips) are never uniform and the bullets themselves are different lengths.
I absolutely do not measure match ammo for consistent OAL, because it's a waste of time. I take a 3-4 round average OAL measurement to ensure they're mag length at around 2.250" +/-.008" or so and run the mothers out!
Your bullet seater pushes against the ogive (curved part of the bullet), which is not always identically-shaped bullet to bullet. So even if your bullets are all precisely the same length, they will still seat to different depths. In addition, the way you pull the lever on your press must be the same every time, or you will see some variance in how much the bullet seater presses against the bullet. And of course, if you have a compressed powder charge your seater may actually deform your bullet vs pushing it deeper into the case, causing those bullets to stick out just a bit more.
With 77 smks, his ogive should be pretty consistent, and if he's compressing powder with XBR, his rifle is going to be in pieces after shot number 1.
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 10:27
So there is no way to get a more consistent length? I'm seeing a variation of 0.022 or +/- 0.11 from 2.251.
How I run the press is place a bullet and run the ram up when I feel resistant I apply more pressure until the press cams over.
With 77 smks, his ogive should be pretty consistent, and if he's compressing powder with XBR, his rifle is going to be in pieces after shot number 1.
I'm not compressing powder, from IMR website load starts out at 20.5 to 23.2. I loaded up to 23.4 in 0.2 increments if there are not signs of over pressure at 23.2, then I'll run the 23.4
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 10:29
Double
The press should not cam over for bullet seating. It should be a smooth, low effort cycle with just the neck tension giving a touch of resistance.
I agree that the ogive on the 77 SMK should be very consistent. What I have seen though is that the meplat of otm bullets can vary, thus the bullet oal can vary slightly. It looks to me that in the forming of the otm that the manufacturers leave this area untrimmed.
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 10:46
The press should not cam over for bullet seating. It should be a smooth, low effort cycle with just the neck tension giving a touch of resistance.
Sorry when I say cam over I'm referring to when the press stops. What you describe is what I'm experiencing
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thirteen/autumns
07-09-14, 10:46
Also, you CAN NOT measure COAL with OTM bullets. The meplat (hollow tips) are never uniform and the bullets themselves are different lengths.
I totally agree with Mark on this... I have been loading 77 Noslers and SMKs now for about 2 years and the meplat makes my COAL a pain in the ass if your OCD like myself. I was expecting perfect COALs, boy was I wrong but I had have to get over my OCD. I usually set the seater die which is an RCBS like you have to set an approx COAL of 2.25ish. I will still get difference COALs from 2.24 to 2.26 depending on how the meplat is.
Ned Christiansen
07-09-14, 10:49
I've gone so far as to trim meplats, not for seating reasons but just to see if it made an accuracy dif-- it did not.
The base/ogive relationship had better be consistant within thousanths or it's time to find a better bullet-- but I doubt you have any issue with that.
The meplats are inconsistent just because of the way the bullets are made. It consists of scrunched-up jacket mouth material that comes to a slightly inconsistent point each time. Sounds bad but a non-issue- as long as you are not using it for seating. The seating punch should be contacting the ogive and as close as possible to the tip where the angle is least vertical / coaxial to the round.
My old pal who was a benchrest giant years ago, Robert Simonson, told me that he experimented with inconsistent meplats-- by actually filing them crooked, jagged, and irregular. It all had little to no effect on groups. Imperfections on the bullet's base however were group killers.
I was lucky at an early part of my gun career to have associated with Bob. Many of the extreme accuracy bits I learned from him DO apply to AR's. He made the bullet-making dies that made the bullets that won the titles, civilian and military, and that got Berger Bullets started. During my apprenticeship I worked after hours for Bob and sometimes helped making the dies.
I agree that the ogive on the 77 SMK should be very consistent. What I have seen though is that the meplat of otm bullets can vary, thus the bullet oal can vary slightly. It looks to me that in the forming of the otm that the manufacturers leave this area untrimmed.
Oops, just saw Markm comment. I would agree.
I had have to get over my OCD.
You have to throw that crap right over your shoulder. I don't claim to know everything about reloading, but I do get nice results.
And the one thing I see a lot of newer guys do is... they obsess on the science of reloading and pay no mind to the ART. Over measuring and under shooting. I'll tell you that I get more good info on feel from my press than I do with a dial caliper.
Measure your SDs, velocities, and group sizes. ;)
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 11:03
So what would give me such a bigger variant in lengths vs what markm +\- 0.008 vs mine +\- 0.011. Yes it's .003 but I'm OCD LOL
Mark, SD is seating depth?
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So what would give me such a bigger variant in lengths vs what markm +\- 0.008 vs mine +\- 0.011. Yes it's .003 but I'm OCD LOL
Mark, SD is seating depth?
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About the only thing it could be is the ogive. Although Sierra makes a good bullet, they're not perfect. .003, after all, is less than the thickness of a hair.
SD is standard deviations. Shoot the ammo. If it's not delivering, THEN go back and fine tune. Don't pin me down on my variances. I think they run +/- .008. I just don't look at those numbers very close.
I have a Forster adjustable competition seating die. I just spin it to where I get a few 2.250ish lengths and ignore it from then on.
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 12:25
SD is standard deviations. Shoot the ammo. If it's not delivering, THEN go back and fine tune. Don't pin me down on my variances. I think they run +/- .008. I just don't look at those numbers very close.
I have a Forster adjustable competition seating die. I just spin it to where I get a few 2.250ish lengths and ignore it from then on.
I plan on shooting today if the weather holds out. I'll report back then with chrono results from ladder test.
I have read on here and other forums that reloaders are often asked what do they set the COAL and alot say to mag length being 2.260. This is where my OCD is kicking in hard. If I read someone is loading to Max Mag Length then their cartridge is 2.260 in length. At this moment in time I'm having to check all the COAL to see if any are over 2.260 or by loading them in to a magazine. I guess I'll have to turn the Bullet Seating Stem down a quarter turn or so and seat them a little deeper to be sure all are under 2.260
I think about 2.265 will still squeeze into a mag. I set my die for an average of 2.250 and blast off from there.
You have to throw that crap right over your shoulder. I don't claim to know everything about reloading, but I do get nice results.
And the one thing I see a lot of newer guys do is... they obsess on the science of reloading and pay no mind to the ART. Over measuring and under shooting. I'll tell you that I get more good info on feel from my press than I do with a dial caliper.
Measure your SDs, velocities, and group sizes. ;)
This... much wisdom here... this describes precisely how I was 30 yrs ago.
Brass length has no impact on COAL.
Also, you CAN NOT measure COAL with OTM bullets. The meplat (hollow tips) are never uniform and the bullets themselves are different lengths.
I absolutely do not measure match ammo for consistent OAL, because it's a waste of time. I take a 3-4 round average OAL measurement to ensure they're mag length at around 2.250" +/-.008" or so and run the mothers out!
I ran into the same situation as the OP a couple months ago then realized the same thing as markm posted. Bullet tips are all different on the 77gr SMKs due to the open tip process.
If you want to set your mind at ease, buy a box of Black Hills ammo and start taking measurements on that stuff.
That will show you where the expression If you want it done right, do it yourself came from. And that stuff is considered "good" among non handloaders.
Good info. here. Bullet tips are the most inconsistent part of the bullets, and seem to be the biggest reason for inconsistent measurements. Like Mark said, measuring 4-5 cartridges to make sure the cartridges fit the magazine will ensure proper function. That's what I use a caliper is for.
I'm not a master reloader, or even close to it, but I've found the use of a comparator measures a lot more consistently by using the ogive and not the bullet tip, reduces my stress level. I'll determine the shortest measurement with the comparator, of the 5 cartridges measured with the caliper, and then that's the length from now until doomsday for that particular bullet/cartridge combination. Usually there isn't much difference between the comparator measurements of the 5, compared with the caliper, since the seating die is normally pushing down on the ogive instead of the bullet. I've read it becomes more of an issue with the VLD type bullets, with very long ogives and a much reduced curve to them. They cause a normal seater to push on the tip of the bullet. You need to get a special bushing to prevent contact with the tip in that case.
Here's a link to the comparator I have, which seems to work pretty good: http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-comparator-basic-set-prod55255.aspx
P.S. - Federal GMM has been super accurate in my 308, but when I measured OAL with a caliper they were all over the place. Measuring them with the comparator however, they were very consistent.
Yeah... you need a comparator. I don't own one, however. Because no matter what it told me, I'm not changing a thing. And it'd just be another thing to worry about/drive me nuts.
Leade on most of our barrels is so long that variance in bullet seating depth is negligible.
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 15:57
If you want to set your mind at ease, buy a box of Black Hills ammo and start taking measurements on that stuff.
That will show you where the expression If you want it done right, do it yourself came from. And that stuff is considered "good" among non handloaders.
Good info. here. Bullet tips are the most inconsistent part of the bullets, and seem to be the biggest reason for inconsistent measurements. Like Mark said, measuring 4-5 cartridges to make sure the cartridges fit the magazine will ensure proper function. That's what I use a caliper is for.
I'm not a master reloader, or even close to it, but I've found the use of a comparator measures a lot more consistently by using the ogive and not the bullet tip, reduces my stress level. I'll determine the shortest measurement with the comparator, of the 5 cartridges measured with the caliper, and then that's the length from now until doomsday for that particular bullet/cartridge combination. Usually there isn't much difference between the comparator measurements of the 5, compared with the caliper, since the seating die is normally pushing down on the ogive instead of the bullet. I've read it becomes more of an issue with the VLD type bullets, with very long ogives and a much reduced curve to them. They cause a normal seater to push on the tip of the bullet. You need to get a special bushing to prevent contact with the tip in that case.
Here's a link to the comparator I have, which seems to work pretty good: http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-comparator-basic-set-prod55255.aspx
P.S. - Federal GMM has been super accurate in my 308, but when I measured OAL with a caliper they were all over the place. Measuring them with the comparator however, they were very consistent.
Yeah... you need a comparator. I don't own one, however. Because no matter what it told me, I'm not changing a thing. And it'd just be another thing to worry about/drive me nuts.
Leade on most of our barrels is so long that variance in bullet seating depth is negligible.
Thanks for the insight guys. Makes things easier and less stressful I did get a bullet comparator, thank you Amazon.
New to the precision-ish game and making my own ammo for each rifle. Way I'm looking at it is, I use to race cars (drag). Given the race car had to be setup for different tracks (rifle) and setup (ammo). I enjoyed setting up the car just as much as driving at times.
Take the comparator and make a Christmas ornament out of it.
Djstorm100
07-09-14, 18:28
Take the comparator and make a Christmas ornament out of it.
I do have a "gun tree" lol
Take the comparator and make a Christmas ornament out of it.
For the most part I agree, when used with 5.56 or .308. They really come into their own though when you can actually get the bullet to the lands when a round is chambered, on other cartridges.
For the most part I agree, when used with 5.56 or .308. They really come into their own though when you can actually get the bullet to the lands when a round is chambered, on other cartridges.
Yep. Loading that kind of ammo is too much torture for me. I stick to secant ogives.
Djstorm100
07-10-14, 08:29
Loaded up some dummy rounds last night and tolerance is less but some rounds indicated copper being shaved off. There was a ring around the top of the neck of brass and if I took my finger nail I could remove the ring. I did notice these cases were harder to seat the bullet. Could be lack of chamfer? Since I'm using boat tail read it was not necessary to chamfer. I would say 5% experienced it and it was all head stamped "FC".
I did also find I needed to add a little more crimp. Some rounds when pushed on a bathroom scaled collapsed in the brass at 30-35lbs. Last thing is a bullet to be set back.
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You should be able to seat a boat tail without a chamfer if the neck doesn't have metal hanging over from the trimming. However, if you can feel it in the press it MIGHT be that the necks are not expanded enough.
What is your sizing process exactly? I used to get this when my expander ball was removed, but I didn't use an other method of neck expansion. In any case, it's not good and needs to be corrected.
Djstorm100
07-10-14, 08:40
I got a rcbs SB FL, I don't know if you remember the pm I sent you Mark about the brass failing go/no go. With the ram all the way up screw the die down until it touches shell plate then lower ram and turn 1/8 addition turn in and lock it down. I use lanolin and 99% alcohol as lube in spray bottle. I shake the cases so most of them are point up and spray lube in most of the case necks and then shake and add spray or two then shake the container again. Die is setup to have decamping pin sitting .4 below the bottom of the die. I have not looked to see if I can remove the decap pin without removing the expander. But the cases are decamped in a stage on there own.
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Here's what you can do for a quick test. Measure the outside of the necks with a dial caliper, then measure the outside of the necks after bullet seating. Take care to get the in and out measure on one that shaves jacket material.
Take the difference. It should probably be around .004"-.005" or so. If you're getting much more than that, then something needs correcting.
Djstorm100
07-10-14, 13:25
Here's what you can do for a quick test. Measure the outside of the necks with a dial caliper, then measure the outside of the necks after bullet seating. Take care to get the in and out measure on one that shaves jacket material.
Take the difference. It should probably be around .004"-.005" or so. If you're getting much more than that, then something needs correcting.
Just to clarify.. casing measures 2.202 before bullet...after bullet is seated the casing should measure 2.206 to 2.207?
At first I though the round was getting crimp (on the longer pieces of brass) and not allowing the bullet to be fully seated. So last night I took a middle of the road case length (1.755) and turned the seating die down until the shoulder touch and backed off 1 full turn. Then set the bullet depth. This gave me a COAL ( I know, can't measure it but tried) of 2.250-2.259 (better than .022 I was seeing. But as I said some failed at the bullet being able to push in to the casing, makes me thing it needs a slight crimp.
Just to clarify.. casing measures 2.202 before bullet...after bullet is seated the casing should measure 2.206 to 2.207?
I'm talking width at the case mouth. In other words, how much is the bullet pushing out the diameter of the case neck.
Something is WRONG. The neck should have tension with no crimp at all. I use a light crimp to uniform the tension for more consistency.
Now you're getting BOTH jacket shavings and low neck tension??? There are problems here.
Djstorm100
07-10-14, 14:01
Something is WRONG. The neck should have tension with no crimp at all. I use a light crimp to uniform the tension for more consistency.
Now you're getting BOTH jacket shavings and low neck tension??? There are problems here.
Sorry for the confusion.
For the copper shaving those were 5% count.
I took a round and placed it on the bench and side my fingers behind the front lip of the bench and tried to squeeze the bullet in to the casing. Think of it like one of the hand exercise machines. I was really having to put some force for it to finally give but the bullet did. I did go in to the bathroom and push down on a scale to 35-40 lbs. Some moved and some didn't hard to still since the tips are uniform (duh! lol) OK so I measured the around and turned them in the caliper to see what readings I was getting. Most of the time there was a 0.0005-0.001 difference. Loaded mag, hit the bolt release and ejected them, measure and some moved just a little (0.0005) so if one measured 2.2455 it was now 2.2450.
I'm going to chalk the shavings up to rough necks that need a chamfer at this point. Quit with the bathroom scale.
If you can't twist/move the bullet with your fingers, then you're probably getting enough tension. I'm not familiar with the RCBC or Lyman dies, so I don't know how their stem assembly works.
Djstorm100
07-10-14, 14:28
I'm going to chalk the shavings up to rough necks that need a chamfer at this point. Quit with the bathroom scale.
If you can't twist/move the bullet with your fingers, then you're probably getting enough tension. I'm not familiar with the RCBC or Lyman dies, so I don't know how their stem assembly works.
Their bullet stem works the same as the Lee dies. Only difference is the diameter of the thread portion. What dies do you use?
From start to finish I go:
1. Dillon Carbide Sizer with Expander ball removed.
2. RCBS .224 neck expander die.
(tumble lube off, trim, hand prime)
3. Forster Micro adjustable competition seating die, and last...
4. Light Lee factory crimp die.
From start to finish I go:
1. Dillon Carbide Sizer with Expander ball removed.
2. RCBS .224 neck expander die.
(tumble lube off, trim, hand prime)
3. Forster Micro adjustable competition seating die, and last...
4. Light Lee factory crimp die.
Do you notice a difference with two sizing steps?
Djstorm100
07-10-14, 15:26
From start to finish I go:
1. Dillon Carbide Sizer with Expander ball removed.
2. RCBS .224 neck expander die.
(tumble lube off, trim, hand prime)
3. Forster Micro adjustable competition seating die, and last...
4. Light Lee factory crimp die.
Why use two sizers?
I like the carbide die because it's smooth and tough. BUT it squeezes the neck down a little too much because it's supposed to let the expander ball do the neck sizing on the up stroke as you pull it out.
The problem is... expander balls rape your brass and cause more case stretch and runout. So I took my expander ball out. The RCBS neck expander sizes on the down stroke. It doesn't pull your brass any longer. And the mandrel in there floats so it doesn't usually introduce additional runout in the neck.
I ran the Dillon die alone without using the RCBS for a while. But I was getting a jacket shavings, and probably too much tension... and possibly runout as well.
Steel head
07-10-14, 22:16
I size my brass in two stages also.
Redding body die and lee collet die.
The RCBS die I used before excessively sized down the neck then the mandrel opened it back up and often pulled the cases out of whack(or as MarkM said, brass raping) and I still had excessive neck tension.
I occasionally got bullet shavings on brass that I know was properly chamfered with that die also.
I size my brass in two stages also.
Redding body die and lee collet die.
That's a REALLY good way to go. The problem for me is the volume I run. The LEE collet die is the best, but it's not made to blow through thousands of rounds.
I have to take my 308 and 300 appart every so often and polish the collet shoulders and re grease the die. Pain in the ass, but worth it for those perfectly straight necks.
Djstorm100
07-11-14, 08:55
so you guys do what a full length sizing die does in one step and convert it in to two?
Here is picture of the round with shaving. You can see I peeled some off to help visualize what I'm talking about. You can see the small ring around the neck/where the base meets the bullet.
If I hammer this bullet our and measure the ID/OD will that be accurate to say if I have too much neck tension or will I have to load some rounds and when I feel the bullet being hard to seat measure that case before fully seating the bullet?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2562_zpsec3374b7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2562_zpsec3374b7.jpg.html)
Yes. The standard full length sizing die does too many things at once. It's over squeezing the neck a bit to accomodate for differing neck thicknesses,etc. I can work around the over squeeze, but the expander ball isn't acceptable for me. So I open the neck back up on a second step.
I can't see the pic til after work because it's filtered. Measurement-wise? No. You measure the O.D. of the brass at the neck, before and after the bullet is seated. This gives you an idea of how much neck tension you have.
Put a light chamfer on 20 or so rounds and see if it eliminates the problem.
Is that a pile of aspirin I see there? :lol:
I've been there! For ARs, other than test boxes, I load high volume on a Dillon 550 with their dies and just keep cranking until a loaded cartridge comes out. Do I periodically get a copper shaving? Yes, but I don't think it affects accuracy much at all. Every now and then I have to pluck a shiver out of the primer holder cup though. I just don't worry about it, and I've learned at some point I have to cut out the OCD in order to save the rest of the day.
Is that a pile of aspirin I see there? :lol:
This thread is wearing me out too. ;) It's hard to dial things like this in through the internet.
As far as the shavings, if you run the Giraud trimmer, you get a magnificent chamfer.
Djstorm100
07-11-14, 12:27
I appreciate the help guys really. Working with such pressures it's something I don't want to get wrong
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I'd stay below the 556 load ranges until you ring a few rounds out. Shoot! I did 40-50 thousand rounds of regular low quality blaster ball ammo before I tried making match and 556 pressure ammo.
It takes time and experience to get all of this stuff soaked in.
I'd stay below the 556 load ranges until you ring a few rounds out. Shoot! I did 40-50 thousand rounds of regular low quality blaster ball ammo before I tried making match and 556 pressure ammo.
It takes time and experience to get all of this stuff soaked in.
Bullshit! It only takes us enough rounds to get familiar with our equipment, then we get your load data & start cranking out match ammo. :D
Thanks for taking one for the team. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Djstorm100
07-11-14, 12:57
I'd stay below the 556 load ranges until you ring a few rounds out. Shoot! I did 40-50 thousand rounds of regular low quality blaster ball ammo before I tried making match and 556 pressure ammo.
It takes time and experience to get all of this stuff soaked in.
Yes it does. I'm not even trying to load up to 5.56 pressures lol Just to get better/= quality ammo than black hills. I have a match next month and so that's why I'm devoting a lot of time to this and as have you. I plan on shooting some reload this weekend, the weather has been spotty during the week but at least on Sunday I'll have some long distance data (600-700 yards)
Yes it does. I'm not even trying to load up to 5.56 pressures lol Just to get better/= quality ammo than black hills.
Helen Keller can do that. :sarcastic:
I have a match next month and so that's why I'm devoting a lot of time to this and as have you. I plan on shooting some reload this weekend, the weather has been spotty during the week but at least on Sunday I'll have some long distance data (600-700 yards)
It took me years to evolve my process.... It's personalize to my equipment and priorities. I'm not sure if a month from now is realistic.... unless you have quick access to a range of your back porch.
Djstorm100
07-11-14, 13:20
Helen Keller can do that. :sarcastic:
It took me years to evolve my process.... It's personalize to my equipment and priorities. I'm not sure if a month from now is realistic.... unless you have quick access to a range of your back porch.
LOL
I do have 200 yard range at parents down the road and 700 yard 35-40 minutes. Luckly. 10inch gong at 600 yards is what I'm looking at in the match.
No joke. If you have a 100 yard target that you can get to quickly, you're saving weeks on your testing. For me, if I get some results, it's another week minimum before I can retest.
Sorry to derail, but I'm curious what die you use when sizing/depriming and expanding separately. Would the RCBS 223 Rem Neck Sizer be what I'm looking for, or is the Lee Collet die going to be better than the RCBS one?
Quick Draw
07-11-14, 19:42
I think about 2.265 will still squeeze into a mag. I set my die for an average of 2.250 and blast off from there.
2.250 avg has worked well for me.
Yes. The standard full length sizing die does too many things at once. It's over squeezing the neck a bit to accomodate for differing neck thicknesses,etc. I can work around the over squeeze, but the expander ball isn't acceptable for me. So I open the neck back up on a second step.
Is there a reason why you don't simply forego opening the neck back up and simply use a full length sizing die with properly sized neck bushing? I abandoned the standard full length dies for all the reasons you have previously stated. Now I full length, decap, and neck size to whatever tension I want, usually about 0.003", all in one step.
Steel head
07-11-14, 20:04
That's a REALLY good way to go. The problem for me is the volume I run. The LEE collet die is the best, but it's not made to blow through thousands of rounds.
I have to take my 308 and 300 appart every so often and polish the collet shoulders and re grease the die. Pain in the ass, but worth it for those perfectly straight necks.
Yea, they do require some LEE TLC but I still prefer them to even bushing dies which work damn well also.
If I was going to the one step approach again I'd go the redding S die or a Forster with custom neck diameter( which they will do) and set it up so the expander is not working the brass excessively.
Is there a reason why you don't simply forego opening the neck back up and simply use a full length sizing die with properly sized neck bushing?
I hate bushing dies. They don't work good with mixed brass that has differing neck thickness. And they give you the "dreaded donut". With the LEE Collet die all brass is sized to the mandrel which works off of the inside instead of the outside.
Bushing dies gave me inconsistent runout too. Some were great and some would go .007" out of whack. When I first tried the lee collet, I was in love!
Mixed brass is definitely an issue but "lucky" for me we have 0 degree winters here where the snow comes down sideways and I have time to segregate brass based on headstamps. I have experienced the donut but usually it's not an issue with limited sizing. I have a love/hate relationship with lee products, some I love and some I hate.
Also, forgot to mention I've checked my runout frequently over the last several years and have not experienced more than 0.003" to 0.004".
Djstorm100
07-11-14, 23:23
I hate bushing dies. They don't work good with mixed brass that has differing neck thickness. And they give you the "dreaded donut". With the LEE Collet die all brass is sized to the mandrel which works off of the inside instead of the outside.
Bushing dies gave me inconsistent runout too. Some were great and some would go .007" out of whack. When I first tried the lee collet, I was in love!
I do have a lee collet neck die... I pulled pills in the dumby rounds. Going to resize the dummy round brass (full size, then Lee collet die) and report back. If I get more consistant ammo I don't care about the extra step. I've got time.
Djstorm100
07-19-14, 13:45
Finally, got around to shooting some of my first loads. Did a ladder test with 8208 xbr 22.0 to 23.4. I did 4 8 shot strings while seasoning the new barrel. Last string all shots were under 1moa at 100 yards. I'll post pictures up later. I'm happy though.
Is 2650-2700 FPS ok or do I need to be closer to the 2600fps? 23.4gr gave me 2665 fps. brass show almost no signs of overpressure. 1 out of the 4 cases that I loaded with 23.4 have some marks where the rim meets the case but it is very little.
I don't know what barrel length you're talking about. Out of a 20" barrel, I like to be around, and not much more than, 2750. I wouldn't push it much more than 23.4 gr. XBR has a way of turning on you without warning. This was mentioned on accuratshooter. You'll go from no signs to popping primers and swipes in an instant. I had this happen at 23.8 gr.
Djstorm100
07-20-14, 09:57
18inch barrel.
Does the powder " turn on you" because it's not very temp stable? I just read a lot of post about using it and reloaded 15. My shop only had the xbr.
Using tapatalk
Its very stable in varying temps, but pressure builds fast. So when switching lots or loading past max you can get pressure problems. My load is 23.4 for 77mk and 8208 xbr. If you go past 23.4 which I believe is .2 over max move up by one tenth at a time. If you settle on a load above max make sure to take notes of what lot of powder you used, and whenever you switch lots rework the load.
Its very stable in varying temps, but pressure builds fast.
This. 23.4 +/1 a tenth seems to give a good cushion.
Djstorm100
07-20-14, 22:56
I loaded 100 rounds today. 20 are 23.2 max and 70 at 23.4 and 5 at 23.5 and 5 at 23.6. Shooting for average of 2700 fps. I trimmed these down to 1.750 and debur/chamfer the brass. All went in smoothly and didn't have the brass shave off any brass. Ogive to brass was much more consistent with only .007 change. COAL (not that it matters too much, 2.247 to 2.257)
I'll get picture of the target and velocity as soon as I can.
Djstorm100
07-20-14, 23:58
this is with a brand new barrel. First shot is 22.0 and following +0.2 grain. So 2nd 3rd and 4th are 22.2, 22.4 22.6 grains. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2597_zps8649d642.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2597_zps8649d642.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2598_zps163077b6.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2598_zps163077b6.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2599_zps0d903ce8.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2599_zps0d903ce8.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2600_zpsa4aba978.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2600_zpsa4aba978.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/Djstorm100/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2601_zps978122fc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Djstorm100/media/Firearms%20and%20Training/IMG_2601_zps978122fc.jpg.html)
I can't see the pics here at work. Did the ammo group? Also... a brand new barrel (other than a cut rifled barrel) really needs some rounds down it before it can be truly assessed.
Djstorm100
07-21-14, 10:00
I can't see the pics here at work. Did the ammo group? Also... a brand new barrel (other than a cut rifled barrel) really needs some rounds down it before it can be truly assessed.
Yes the 4th string (8 rounds per string) grouped. From group 1-4 you can see the groups getting smaller and smaller. Yes, the barrel needs to be "seasoned"
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