View Full Version : M&P frame crack? UPDATED
Already sent this back to S&W for inspection, but figured I'd post to see if anyone here has seen or heard of this. This is my brand new M&P 9mm full size. I put 100 rds through it and then noticed this crack during the subsequent cleaning. Doesn't seem like a major structural issue, but didn't seem normal either. Pics:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/mike9250/001_zps5f69ce14.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/mike9250/002_zps07a56a09.jpg
It looks like the replaceable back strap has exerted recoil forces on the frame tool instead of distributing it along the frame, but it could have been a defect from the molding process. Also, your photo shows a discoloration of the polymer in the crack area. I wonder what caused that? Cleaning fluids or lube?
Your problem made me go check my new FS 9mm (test shot date April 2013) with 140 rounds to date and alls fine with it. Let us know what S&W reports back.
Not sure on the discoloration, seems like some guns have it and some don't based on some of the pics I've seen of this area. I'm thinking it's something to due with the molding process like you said. The frame tool does fit pretty snug in there and I'm wondering if it could have caused additional stress in that area.
Crow Hunter
07-10-14, 07:31
Not sure on the discoloration, seems like some guns have it and some don't based on some of the pics I've seen of this area. I'm thinking it's something to due with the molding process like you said. The frame tool does fit pretty snug in there and I'm wondering if it could have caused additional stress in that area.
Looks like incomplete knitting and a burn where it wasn't molded right. Too small a shot size for some reason would be my guess and/or possibly the mold was too cold and the material got sluggish before completely filling and burned where it didn't knit will. Might even need a vent there to speed up closure.
A square hole is very hard to get complete fill behind if the flow isn't just right. Usually you should put a feeder sprue on the back side so that you get more consistent fill. I am surprised they didn't do that. Or they may have and the gate was stopped up.
That would have been a rejected defect and the part sent to regrind if it had been an air cleaner box.
Injection molding is a much art as science.
Interesting analysis, thanks! Sounds like you know a thing or two about plastics.
Looks like incomplete knitting and a burn where it wasn't molded right. Too small a shot size for some reason would be my guess and/or possibly the mold was too cold and the material got sluggish before completely filling and burned where it didn't knit will. Might even need a vent there to speed up closure.
A square hole is very hard to get complete fill behind if the flow isn't just right. Usually you should put a feeder sprue on the back side so that you get more consistent fill. I am surprised they didn't do that. Or they may have and the gate was stopped up.
That would have been a rejected defect and the part sent to regrind if it had been an air cleaner box.
Injection molding is a much art as science.
Crow Hunter
07-10-14, 11:35
Interesting analysis, thanks! Sounds like you know a thing or two about plastics.
I was a manufacturing engineer for 3 years in a factory that was a Tier 1 supplier of injection molded air cleaner boxes and filters for Japanese automakers. That was right after college so I have forgotten quite a bit. :D
We would see those burn marks when there was a bad knit and sometimes when a mold wasn't vented properly and air was trapped in part of the mold and it combusted some.
I just learned more about plastic molding than I ever thought I would on this site!
OP, S&W should take good care of you, keep us informed.
Leaveammoforme
07-11-14, 01:27
I just learned more about plastic molding than I ever thought I would on this site.
You're not the only one! I really enjoy how many different walks of life are on this forum and how 99% of the bull crap gets left at the login screen.
Heard from S&W today, they are going to replace my pistol. Will post another update once it is received.
Still waiting for my replacement pistol. I guess it's not in stock at the moment:confused: Hopefully won't be too much longer.
Nightstalker865
08-08-14, 20:11
Went through this exact same issue back in Dec 13 on a M&P9C. S&W replaced the gun, but it took 4.5 months for the replacement. Needless to say it was quite frustrating. The crack in the frame was underneath the back strap.
Interesting, thanks. You're the only other person I've found that has had this issue. But 4.5 months for a replacement? That's pretty ridiculous. What was the explanation for such a long wait?
Went through this exact same issue back in Dec 13 on a M&P9C. S&W replaced the gun, but it took 4.5 months for the replacement. Needless to say it was quite frustrating. The crack in the frame was underneath the back strap.
Nightstalker865
08-08-14, 20:32
Interesting, thanks. You're the only other person I've found that has had this issue. But 4.5 months for a replacement? That's pretty ridiculous. What was the explanation for such a long wait?
Because they didn't have one "in stock" yes... I heard that from a couple different CS reps I spoke with and emailed. It was an LE SKU model that was purchased through Grant so I contacted him for help. He gave me the contact info of the LE rep in my region. Exactly ONE!!!! Day after I emailed that rep I had an email from CS that my gun was on its way to my FFL.
Thanks. I'm LE and my agency has 500 or so M&P's, so maybe I'll try and get a hold of our rep and see if he can help. Mine might be an LE sku as well as it's the model with no mag disconnect.
Because they didn't have one "in stock" yes... I heard that from a couple different CS reps I spoke with and emailed. It was an LE SKU model that was purchased through Grant so I contacted him for help. He gave me the contact info of the LE rep in my region. Exactly ONE!!!! Day after I emailed that rep I had an email from CS that my gun was on its way to my FFL.
Finally got my replacement pistol after about a 2 month wait. My particualr sku was not available, so they sent me essentially the same gun, but with Crimson Trace laser grips. I have no need or want for the grips, so I'll probably just sell them off. I also ended up with 2 extra mags out of the deal. Now for the bad news... The new gun has some weird metal flakes or burrs on the side of the barrel. I sent pictures to S&W and they want me to send the new gun back to them for inspection. I asked if they could just send me a barrel and they said no. Not happy at this point. Pic of current issue:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/mike9250/001_zps60e661df.jpg
It may just be me, but it looks like those flakes could be removed.
It's still pretty sloppy on S&W's part.
Finally got my replacement pistol after about a 2 month wait. My particualr sku was not available, so they sent me essentially the same gun, but with Crimson Trace laser grips. I have no need or want for the grips, so I'll probably just sell them off. I also ended up with 2 extra mags out of the deal. Now for the bad news... The new gun has some weird metal flakes or burrs on the side of the barrel. I sent pictures to S&W and they want me to send the new gun back to them for inspection. I asked if they could just send me a barrel and they said no. Not happy at this point. Pic of current issue:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/mike9250/001_zps60e661df.jpg
It's possible that they could maybe be scraped off, but it would be bare metal underneath. I tired scraping them with a plastic pick and it had no effect. I haven't tried anything more aggressive as I wanted to get S&W's take on it first. The more I look at it the more it looks like loose metal shards that were not cleaned off the barrel prior to it being finished. Once it was finished the shards got stuck on there pretty good. If S&W could just send me a barrel I'd be happy.
Crow Hunter
09-09-14, 12:41
Looks like they didn't clean off the chips from where they machined the barrel before they coated it.
I would be pissed too.
There is nothing more embarrassing for a company than to send out a bad part as a field service replacement. Mistakes happen but you shouldn't replace a mistake with another one. We have done crap like that where I work and it went up the food chain very fast. Especially the one that was the THIRD field service claim. It was kind of funny to see the plant director inspecting the parts before they went out for the 4th time.;)
My guess is the reason they want the whole gun back is so they have the evidence needed to can somebody for that. That isn't something that a routine inspection should miss so I am sure they want to see where their quality system failed to catch that.
They may also want to analyze the chips to see what process it came out of.
ETA:
You should also look at the slide. Depending on what process those chips came off of they could have been seriously work hardend to the point that they may have indented or gouged the slide.
We used to see crushed chips like that on rotors when the grinder fixtures had become magnetic and it started attracting/having chips stick to it. People would have to manually go in and degauss the fixturing. Depending on the steel and process they are using they might have the same problems.
Finally got my replacement pistol after about a 2 month wait. My particualr sku was not available, so they sent me essentially the same gun, but with Crimson Trace laser grips. I have no need or want for the grips, so I'll probably just sell them off. I also ended up with 2 extra mags out of the deal. Now for the bad news... The new gun has some weird metal flakes or burrs on the side of the barrel. I sent pictures to S&W and they want me to send the new gun back to them for inspection. I asked if they could just send me a barrel and they said no. Not happy at this point. Pic of current issue:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/mike9250/001_zps60e661df.jpg
WOW.
Lots of threads of defective pistols from other manufacturers too, all over the internet. Check out these posts:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?157828-An-Interesting-Failure&p=1987276#post1987276
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?157197-SIG-P226-357-SIG-QC-issues-for-our-HP
WTH is going on?????
I think my next defensive pistol purchase may be a pre-1950's, six-shot revolver.
Crow Hunter
09-10-14, 20:29
WOW.
Lots of threads of defective pistols from other manufacturers too, all over the internet. Check out these posts:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?157828-An-Interesting-Failure&p=1987276#post1987276
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?157197-SIG-P226-357-SIG-QC-issues-for-our-HP
WTH is going on?????
I think my next defensive pistol purchase may be a pre-1950's, six-shot revolver.
You have to keep something in mind.
99% perfect quality means that for every 100,000 pistols produced you will have 1,000 pistols that aren't perfect.
10 bad guns out of a company that runs 50-60k pistols a year is pretty damn good quality. That is 99.983% perfect quality.
Now a company that only runs 10,000 and gets 10 bad guns, that is poor quality.
S&W, Sig, Glock and Beretta make a bunch of pistols every year. There WILL be units that are rejects. Quality controls that are detectable only by visual inspection are at best only 85% effective. So 15% of those defects will statistically escape the best visual inspector. So 15 bad guns out of 100 will get by.
Combine that with the age of the internet and even a company with 99.99999% perfect quality that makes enough parts will get a bad reputation on the internet.:)
As and aside, all those real "high quality" guns made "back in the day" when "craftsmen" made guns were not shot anywhere near as much as guns are today AND they benefit from survivorship bias and a lack of the internet. The pistols we see today from the "good old days" are the ones that lasted. We don't see all the production from then. The bad ones are long gone and there wasn't a worldwide forum for people to type up their problems. ;)
Let me hastily add that defective, out of the box handguns are not a new phenomenon. Today, the big producers are turning out record numbers of handguns. Owners as a group are firing a greater amount of handgun ammunition than in years past, and law enforcement training is burning up more rounds per officer than in previous decades. My opinion is that the semiautomatic handguns of the 1970s and 80s would have had a much higher rejection rate if the same pistols had been sold to and issued to today's shooting and law enforcement community.
IMO S&W hasn't made a quality semi-auto since the 6906. Flame-retardant suit donned...
S&W confirmed that they need the entire pistol sent to them, said they no longer send out barrels or slides. Rep said it was machining residue (metal) that was not cleaned off prior to being Melonited, and that they see this from time to time.
I have 4 of their metal-framed pistols of various vintages. I've had no problems with any of them. I've had 2 M&P's. Both had to be returned to the factory, one was replaced entirely. Anecdotal I know, but that's been my experience.
IMO S&W hasn't made a quality semi-auto since the 6906. Flame-retardant suit donned...
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