View Full Version : Recommendations for first M4
crusader377
06-08-08, 22:38
I'm looking to purchase my first M4 in the next few months and I'm looking for suggestions. My budget is between $800 and $1100 but I would prefer to stay under $1000. Looking for an M4 flattop with 16" barrel and detachable carry handle. Would prefer a mil-spec barrel with 1:7 but would consider a 4140 barrel with 1:9. Looking for the highest quality rifle possible. Will either buy complete rifle or buy the complete upper and lower separately and build. Researched a fair amount of brands and came down with a short list. Please let me know what you think and if you have another recommendation.
To purchase complete:
CD M4 or M4LE
SW MP15
ADS M4 (Dont know to much about these but reviews from this site have been very good)
Armalite M15
To build using complete upper and lowers:
CMMG
LMT
ADS
Would consider CD but haven't been able to find any for sale yet.
I have also looked at the usual suspects at various gun stores like DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, and RRA but have eliminated them from the list because it seems like neglect numerous features in their rifles.
Thanks!
Paladin4415
06-08-08, 22:45
Looks like the CD M4LE might be your best bet.
Charles Daly
06-08-08, 23:01
If you can give us a few more weeks, say to the 2nd week of July, we will have complete uppers ready for sale direct to the consumer right from our website.
Also, our new complete lightweights are now less than a month away with the new middy's about 6 seeks away. All of these new builds will be 1:7 twist, 4150, M4 Feedramps (we have seen the light) along wiht all the little things we're now know to pay attention to, like gas carrier key and castle nut staking, proper F FSB, etc.
So, a D-M4LE might suit you now, wait for a lower and upper you can assemble yourself, or wait for the new builds that will also be highly desirable,
Take your time, just make sure you're waiting for a Daly! :D
P.S. I'll get a teaser announcement of all the new builds out later this week.
Mr. Kassnar,
Are you one in the same that imported Hungarian AK's into the U.S back in the mid-late 80's? If so, I had one and regret everyday that I got rid of it.
Kurt Reifert
06-09-08, 07:20
If you can give us a few more weeks, say to the 2nd week of July, we will have complete uppers and complet lowers ready for sale direct to the consumer right from our website.
Great. Another manufacturer that wants to cut the retailer out of the picture.
Charles Daly looks very promising....You could also go for S&W M&P-15, or have Jon at Anvil build you one - the examples I've seen of Anvil builds have been sweet. Looking forward to mine....
The Archangel
06-09-08, 11:28
Look in the Member Sale section. USMC03 has two very solid 16" Middy's. I would jumped on them, but with my recent purchase(s), my wife would eject me on the couch for an indefinate amount of time (and I like my king-sized pillow top). :D
rubberneck
06-09-08, 12:16
Any idea of what your pricing on the middy uppers is going to be?
Charles Daly
06-09-08, 12:50
Mr. Kassnar,
Are you one in the same that imported Hungarian AK's into the U.S back in the mid-late 80's? If so, I had one and regret everyday that I got rid of it.
Yes sir. My father's old company, Kassnar Imports, imported the pre-ban SA85M Hungarian AKM's in the mid-80's and our company, KBI, imported the post-ban SA-85M's and SA-2000's.
A few months ago I sold a set of serial number 1's, one folder and one pistol grip, and already I'm sorry I did.
Charles Daly
06-09-08, 12:56
Great. Another manufacturer that wants to cut the retailer out of the picture.
Kurt,
We would never do anything to upset the wholesaler or dealer with our direct online sales. Our prices online will be at MSRP. If anyone wants to buy non-FFL items from us at full retail, we will take the order, as we have always done for spare magazines and choke tubes. I would be very surprised if anyone would pay full retail for an upper. The consumer will always be able to buy from a dealer at much lower prices than he would be able to buy from us.
Check the pricing on anything we sell and you let me know if you can't buy something from one of our wholesalers, make a profit, and undercut our MSRP.
Sincerely,
crusader377
06-09-08, 14:44
Mr. Kassnar,
Which of your dealers and wholesalers will be getting the CD complete uppers and lowers? Second, I don't know if you disclose this but what would be a fair market price for them?
Thanks
Buy the CD. I have 2 of their rifles, and I couldn't be happier. They make a great product and their customer service is top notch. Mr. Kassnar is a great guy.
Charles Daly
06-09-08, 16:56
Mr. Kassnar,
Which of your dealers and wholesalers will be getting the CD complete uppers and lowers? Second, I don't know if you disclose this but what would be a fair market price for them?
Thanks
So far, wholesalers who have committed for the complete uppers and complete lowers:
JSC (Jerry's Sport Center, Forest City, PA) and their other locations which include:
Bonitz Brothers-Harrisburg, PA
Simmons Gun Specialties-Spring Hill, KS
OSHI (Outdoor Sports Headquarter's Inc.) Dayton, OH
and
Banger's - Birmingham, AL
AcuSport - Bellefontaine, OH
Wholesalers typically work on very slim margins with the intent of "turning" their inventory several times a year.
It really is not for us to set a Fair Market Value. I'm a firm believer in free market capitalism. We set "Suggested" prices, but they are just that, "Suggested". The real world will determine the FMV. I am not a fan of MAP for this same reason.
mrosamilia
06-09-08, 20:26
So far, wholesalers who have committed for the complete uppers and complete lowers:
JSC (Jerry's Sport Center, Forest City, PA) and their other locations which include:
Bonitz Brothers-Harrisburg, PA
Simmons Gun Specialties-Spring Hill, KS
OSHI (Outdoor Sports Headquarter's Inc.) Dayton, OH
and
Banger's - Birmingham, AL
AcuSport - Bellefontaine, OH
Wholesalers typically work on very slim margins with the intent of "turning" their inventory several times a year.
It really is not for us to set a Fair Market Value. I'm a firm believer in free market capitalism. We set "Suggested" prices, but they are just that, "Suggested". The real world will determine the FMV. I am not a fan of MAP for this same reason.
Being a Mathews Archery dealer I have to agree with you about MAP. I seem to have issues with it if not monthly possibly weekly. Please if you could forward any info to my email in my profile. Thanks in advance
Kurt Reifert
06-10-08, 08:08
Kurt,
I would be very surprised if anyone would pay full retail for an upper.
If you really believed that, why would your company even bother?
Operating a retail shop is difficult enough without having to compete with the manufacturer whose products we stock.
rubberneck
06-10-08, 10:43
If you really believed that, why would your company even bother?
Operating a retail shop is difficult enough without having to compete with the manufacturer whose products we stock.
Because you wouldn't believe the number of knuckleheads that will only buy directly from a manufacturer. My company (non firearms related) sells 98% of our products through distributors and wholesalers, but we still offer our products on our website for substantially more than they can be had with our dealers. We do so because we got tired of dealing with phone calls from customers demanding that we do it.
None of our dealers care because they sell it for substantially less than we allow people to buy directly. I can't force a guy to go to a dealer and I sure as hell won't turn away business, but I can make it so costly that most rational people won't consider it. There is nothing you can do about those customers anyway.
If you really believed that, why would your company even bother?
Operating a retail shop is difficult enough without having to compete with the manufacturer whose products we stock.
I personally have zero issue with a manufacturer selling direct AS LONG AS they follow MSRP. Most consumers are wise enough to NEVER pay these prices.
Just about every manufacturer in the firearms business (from gear/parts to guns) sells directly. Some do it upfront with their website and others do it behind closed doors.
So I wouldn't throw CD under the bus for doing what everyone else already does.
C4
fascinating reading the interaction of mfr, dealers, and wholesales. Gives the average Joe a different perspective.
If you really believed that, why would your company even bother?
Operating a retail shop is difficult enough without having to compete with the manufacturer whose products we stock.
Because for every one of you that wants to stir the pot and find excuses to get upset there's some other customer that winds up bitching "why don't you sell direct".
This is definitely one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, but IMHO CD is choosing the lesser of the two evils.
fascinating reading the interaction of mfr, dealers, and wholesales. Gives the average Joe a different perspective.
You have no idea. I am fairly certian that I could write a book about what I know of the "tactical firearms/gear industry" and people would read it cover to cover (twice).
C4
fascinating reading the interaction of mfr, dealers, and wholesales. Gives the average Joe a different perspective.
In some cases most of them should be ashamed of themselves. The internet has really served to pull back the curtain on a lot of businesses (not just in the firearms business) and their ownership. Oftentimes to the detriment of the business.
Most business owners should find someone in their organization that is knowledgeable about the product and good with people and, if they want a web presence, assign that person to public/customer relations to check in on forums and answer emails from customers. In fact, that person doesn't even really need to be all that knowledgeable, they just need to know who to go to within the company to get the answers they need. That person should also be able to distance themselves from any emotional attachment to the business.
crusader377
06-10-08, 12:34
C4,
I saw that you are one of the retailers of the ADS line of M4s. On this site they seem to be receiving some pretty strong reviews especially for their price. Do you still sell them and if so what is the current pricing on them. Also, How would you rate them against some of the other brands I'm considering such as CD, armalite, S&W, and building an LMT
In some cases most of them should be ashamed of themselves. The internet has really served to pull back the curtain on a lot of businesses (not just in the firearms business) and their ownership. Oftentimes to the detriment of the business.
Most business owners should find someone in their organization that is knowledgeable about the product and good with people and, if they want a web presence, assign that person to public/customer relations to check in on forums and answer emails from customers. In fact, that person doesn't even really need to be all that knowledgeable, they just need to know who to go to within the company to get the answers they need. That person should also be able to distance themselves from any emotional attachment to the business.
Excellent.
I had this very conversation with the owner of a company that all of you would know. Excellent products - lackluster followthrough and poor communication. It has in my opinion, hampered many a business with the best products and the best intentions, but with no foresight to back it up with communications to the buying public...
C4,
I saw that you are one of the retailers of the ADS line of M4s. On this site they seem to be receiving some pretty strong reviews especially for their price. Do you still sell them and if so what is the current pricing on them. Also, How would you rate them against some of the other brands I'm considering such as CD, armalite, S&W, and building an LMT
We do stock them. Price is $840 for a complete AR (with no rear sight).
I would put them above Armalite and S&W, below LMT and pretty similar to the CD.
C4
Excellent.
I had this very conversation with the owner of a company that all of you would know. Excellent products - lackluster followthrough and poor communication. It has in my opinion, hampered many a business with the best products and the best intentions, but with no foresight to back it up with communications to the buying public...
From what I have seen, most manufacturers read the forums, but rarely post. The reason is that it is ever so easy to get sucked into fight with a troll (who is most likely an employee for a competing company). :rolleyes:
We (dealers) often talk amongst ourselves that if we treated our customers the way SOME manufacturers treat us, we would never have a single sale. My theory is that the better your product is, the worse you can be in all areas of business and still come out ahead.
C4
We (dealers) often talk amongst ourselves that if we treated our customers the way SOME manufacturers treat us, we would never have a single sale. My theory is that the better your product is, the worse you can be in all areas of business and still come out ahead.
Jonathan Arthur Ceiner
Jonathan Arthur Ceiner
Though I have never had a run in with him, he is at the top of many dealers list.
C4
Kurt Reifert
06-10-08, 13:46
I personally have zero issue with a manufacturer selling direct AS LONG AS they follow MSRP. Most consumers are wise enough to NEVER pay these prices.
Just about every manufacturer in the firearms business (from gear/parts to guns) sells directly. Some do it upfront with their website and others do it behind closed doors.
So I wouldn't throw CD under the bus for doing what everyone else already does.
C4
Not throwing anyone under the bus. Just pointing out that if Mr Kassnar really believed nobody would buy from his websight, he wouldn't waste the resources.
You're right, most manufacturers are doing it. It does take some sales away from retailers.
crusader377
06-10-08, 14:01
I appreciate all of the suggestions for this post. Although I'm probably won't purchase an M4 for another month or so. My first M4 will either be a CD, ADS, or LMT. I personally don't think I could go wrong with any of these three. It will probably come down to the best value and availability during the time of purchase.
Kurt Reifert
06-10-08, 14:14
Because for every one of you that wants to stir the pot and find excuses to get upset there's some other customer that winds up bitching "why don't you sell direct".
This is definitely one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, but IMHO CD is choosing the lesser of the two evils.
Not stirring the pot or looking for excuses, just questioning the rational of spending time and money with no expectation of a return.
The answer to "why don't you sell direct"? could be quite simply, "because we are a manufacturer and we have a distribution and dealer network set up to handle that".
Of course Mr. Kassnar can run his business however he chooses, I just thought it was silly to say that he didn't expect anyone to buy from him direct.
Kurt Reifert
06-10-08, 15:49
C4,
I saw that you are one of the retailers of the ADS line of M4s. On this site they seem to be receiving some pretty strong reviews especially for their price. Do you still sell them and if so what is the current pricing on them. Also, How would you rate them against some of the other brands I'm considering such as CD, armalite, S&W, and building an LMT
Look for a review of the ADS rifles in the October issue of SWAT Magazine.
Forrest_F150
06-11-08, 00:44
I Like My S&W M&P15A. It was a good deal when they had the $100 rebate on them a few months ago.
I think it's still a pretty solid rifle. I believe right now they have a $50 rebate or 2 free mags promotion going on (take the $50 rebate, you can buy 3 PMAGS for $50).
Charles Daly
06-11-08, 06:37
Not stirring the pot or looking for excuses, just questioning the rational of spending time and money with no expectation of a return.
The answer to "why don't you sell direct"? could be quite simply, "because we are a manufacturer and we have a distribution and dealer network set up to handle that".
Of course Mr. Kassnar can run his business however he chooses, I just thought it was silly to say that he didn't expect anyone to buy from him direct.
I don't "expect" people to buy from us direct, but I would be a fool if I did not make that possibility an option. Does every dealer stock our products? No. Is every Dealer willing to order in one of our products for a consumer to look at before committing to a purchase? No! Will a Dealer try and move a consumer from buying a Daly to something else he has in stock? Yes.
We spend a small fortune in advertising and if a consumer is willing to pay full retail, he is more than welcome to purchase directly from us. Why would I turn down that sale? That consumer has decided that he wants that Charles Daly product and for one reason or another he cannot find a Dealer to handle this item for him. At the end of the day our consumers are the most important customer in the distribution chain.
We have always supported a two-step distribution system (wholesaler to dealer) and we still do. Any dealer can buy our product from a wholesaler, make a normal gun industry profit, and sell it to a consumer at least 5% to 10% lower than we will. And please remember, this is only for non-FFL items. We are not selling anything that needs an FFL direct to the consumers (other than something really different like the lower blems we sold here, although that did require transfer to a FFL).
I don't "expect" people to buy from us direct, but I would be a fool if I did not make that possibility an option. Does every dealer stock our products? No. Is every Dealer willing to order in one of our products for a consumer to look at before committing to a purchase? No! Will a Dealer try and move a consumer from buying a Daly to something else he has in stock? Yes.
We spend a small fortune in advertising and if a consumer is willing to pay full retail, he is more than welcome to purchase directly from us. Why would I turn down that sale? That consumer has decided that he wants that Charles Daly product and for one reason or another he cannot find a Dealer to handle this item for him. At the end of the day our consumers are the most important customer in the distribution chain.
We have always supported a two-step distribution system (wholesaler to dealer) and we still do. Any dealer can buy our product from a wholesaler, make a normal gun industry profit, and sell it to a consumer at least 5% to 10% lower than we will. And please remember, this is only for non-FFL items. We are not selling anything that needs an FFL direct to the consumers (other than something really different like the lower blems we sold here, although that did require transfer to a FFL).
Note that Bushmaster has done this exact same thing for YEARS. They were "Quality Parts" before they were Bushmaster. Rock River Arms, Armalite, DSA, just to name a few, all do the exact same thing. With that said, you'd be a fool to buy anything directly from these manufacturers as you can always find the exact same items cheaper from a vendor.
Maybe you're not stirring the pot Kurt, but your "concerns" make little sense.
Kurt Reifert
06-11-08, 11:59
I never used the word "concern".
LIL-COMMANDO
06-12-08, 00:13
I'm looking to purchase my first M4 in the next few months and I'm looking for suggestions. My budget is between $800 and $1100 but I would prefer to stay under $1000. Looking for an M4 flattop with 16" barrel and detachable carry handle. Would prefer a mil-spec barrel with 1:7 but would consider a 4140 barrel with 1:9. Looking for the highest quality rifle possible. Will either buy complete rifle or buy the complete upper and lower separately and build. Researched a fair amount of brands and came down with a short list. Please let me know what you think and if you have another recommendation.
To purchase complete:
CD M4 or M4LE
SW MP15
ADS M4 (Dont know to much about these but reviews from this site have been very good)
Armalite M15
To build using complete upper and lowers:
CMMG
LMT
ADS
Would consider CD but haven't been able to find any for sale yet.
I have also looked at the usual suspects at various gun stores like DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, and RRA but have eliminated them from the list because it seems like neglect numerous features in their rifles.
Thanks!
Just get a LMT Complete rifle for a little more then $1100. or buy the upper seperate then buy the lower later and you will be between 900.00 and 1000. bucks for your complete rifle. Check out this thread, http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=15566
Mr. K,
I can't believe you did it? I cry everytime that I think about it. I was a dumb ass 18 y/o private and should have held onto that gun. The Hungarian guns were actually some of the best AK's imported into the U.S. Plus it would have been a California legal AWB registered weapon.
Yes sir. My father's old company, Kassnar Imports, imported the pre-ban SA85M Hungarian AKM's in the mid-80's and our company, KBI, imported the post-ban SA-85M's and SA-2000's.
A few months ago I sold a set of serial number 1's, one folder and one pistol grip, and already I'm sorry I did.
Operating a retail shop is difficult enough without having to compete with the manufacturer whose products we stock.
I never used the word "concern".
First quote looks like a "concern" to me, whether the word itself has been used or not.
HAIL-CAESAR
06-17-08, 04:01
Take it to the tool shed fella's, almost sounds like barfcom.
Back to answering the original question. You could have an LMT upper and any good lower for under a grand easily, with almost any stock. The CD sounds good as does the ADS but I'd stay with the LMT because of the longer reputation of quality. Plus if you decide 12 months later that you don't want it anymore it would be sold in a millisecond. My and only my opinion, and I know absolutely nothing.
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