View Full Version : 5.56 ammo and house walls question.
platinumdude
06-09-08, 00:16
I read from http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm that:
"In interior wall tests, 5.56 rounds have less wounding potential after wall strikes than any common 9mm or above handgun ammunition..."
However reading http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm
It shows during a test that the 5.56 was able to penetrate two simulated interior walls and was able to crack a brick passed that. The handgun ammo was unable to damage the brick.
Is someone wrong?
The misnomered "Box of Truth" did NOT capture the projectile in tissue simulant after first passing through an intermediate barrier, thus it offers NO useful information on the ultimate terminal effects of projectiles after encountering intermediate barriers...
Is someone wrong?
Do you want the brick broken or not?
To put what doc said in plain terms...
Shoot through a wall into ballistic gelatin and then get back to us. The "BOT" is not much more than entertainment and a mild distraction and claim to internet fame for a couple of retired guys.
XM193 would also not exactly be my pick for defensive ammo.
platinumdude
06-09-08, 22:34
Do you want the brick broken or not?
No, I bought a 20 pack of Hornady 75 grain TAP to try out, once my Noveske 16" rifle arrives.
I just wanted to know what the discrepancy was, and why the hand pistols couldn't crack it. I would rather of course rounds to only hit the BG, but if one misses, would hope it wouldn't go out the house.
There is only a rare, rare case where I want extra penetration like if a BG wears light armor vest. I presume the lighter faster round is better for this than the heavy round which is meant for easier fragmentation, correct?
If they are wearing armor and your threat isn't going down you should be reverting to training and administer a Failure Drill.
40/52/55/62/64/75/77 gr 5.56 loads will defeat concealable armor designed to defeat handgun ammunition but not rifle plates. The penetration needed to defeat armor is a non-issue I would think.
I would rather of course rounds to only hit the BG, but if one misses, would hope it wouldn't go out the house.
I see. I wouldn't waste another minute worrying about this. The 5.56 round is ideal for limiting over penetration... especially in the M193 realm. There's just way too much internut worry on this topic. Now if you were worried about your .308 home defense gun overpenetrating, you might have a real concern! ;)
The only thing less barrier penetrative than 5.56 would be shot gun... and thank God you're not one of those quacks! :D
I see. I wouldn't waste another minute worrying about this. The 5.56 round is ideal for limiting over penetration... especially in the M193 realm. There's just way too much internut worry on this topic. Now if you were worried about your .308 home defense gun overpenetrating, you might have a real concern! ;)
The only thing less barrier penetrative than 5.56 would be shot gun... and thank God you're not one of those quacks! :D
LOL. "the sound of a shotgun racking is the best home defense solution" LOL.
i always laugh at that. I'm sure it comes from some gunshop BS or some gunrag retard with a type writer.
I'm sure it comes from some gunshop BS or some gunrag retard with a type writer.
It's really bad over on TOS. The shotgun forum over there became known as the "Special Ed" forum after a while.
Those Retards would lock their decked out ARs in the safe at night, and grab a friggin BIRD GUN for Home Defense.... and see nothing wrong with that brilliance! :rolleyes:
It's really bad over on TOS. The shotgun forum over there became known as the "Special Ed" forum after a while.
Those Retards would lock their decked out ARs in the safe at night, and grab a friggin BIRD GUN for Home Defense.... and see nothing wrong with that brilliance! :rolleyes:
TOS is absolutely mind blowing. I can't believe some of the BS thats spouted over there. :rolleyes: ofcourse if your post count is over 10 billion and you have a lifetime internet commando membership everything you post must be viewed as fact!:rolleyes:
Here's an idea, take some sheetrock out to the range and put a few rounds through it at various ranges with backers at various distances...have fun!
It's really bad over on TOS. The shotgun forum over there became known as the "Special Ed" forum after a while.
Those Retards would lock their decked out ARs in the safe at night, and grab a friggin BIRD GUN for Home Defense.... and see nothing wrong with that brilliance! :rolleyes:
haha.. at least a handgun makes some degree of sense in a defensive situation... but the more i learn, the less i'm into the home defense shotgun idea.
haha.. at least a handgun makes some degree of sense in a defensive situation... but the more i learn, the less i'm into the home defense shotgun idea.
:confused: I'm not tracking on this... A handgun makes better sense than a shotgun in a defensive situation?
:confused: I'm not tracking on this... A handgun makes better sense than a shotgun in a defensive situation?
It depends on a ton of factors. There are certainly circumstances where a Shot Gun could be better than a pistol.
But generally speaking, the shot gun is the LAST thing I'd grab to shoot a bad guy. It's really a non issue anyway because we have these amazing, relatively small M4 carbines that do it all.... and do it all a hell of a lot better than a bird gun.
I don't think there's one aspect of defensive work where the shotgun is superior to the carbine... capacity, handling, recoil, flash, soft armor penetration, etc.
It depends on a ton of factors. There are certainly circumstances where a Shot Gun could be better than a pistol.
But generally speaking, the shot gun is the LAST thing I'd grab to shoot a bad guy. It's really a non issue anyway because we have these amazing, relatively small M4 carbines that do it all.... and do it all a hell of a lot better than a bird gun.
I don't think there's one aspect of defensive work where the shotgun is superior to the carbine... capacity, handling, recoil, flash, soft armor penetration, etc.
Its pretty hard to beat Carbine for defense. I keep a 10.5" locked and loaded on safe next me when I'm at home.
telecustom
06-11-08, 12:31
Its pretty hard to beat Carbine for defense. I keep a 10.5" locked and loaded on safe next me when I'm at home.
Me too, and it drives the wife crazy.:p
Me too, and it drives the wife crazy.:p
LOL
I'm recently single:confused: maybe that had somthin to do with it:confused:
:confused: I'm not tracking on this... A handgun makes better sense than a shotgun in a defensive situation?
a handgun is at least quick around corners...
toddackerman
06-12-08, 23:14
LOL
I'm recently single:confused: maybe that had somthin to do with it:confused:
Me too! She hated the guns, and would have freaked if she ever knew that I was a CCW holder. Moving out on the 7/7/08 to my new safe haven.
Back on track....75 Grn. TAP in my 16" MRP is my 1st choice.
230 Gn. Ranger HP's in my 1911 is my second choice.
Remmy 870. 18" IC with Federal Flite Control 00 Buck is my third choice, but the 00 Buck will definitely reach outside the walls of my house (soon to be apartment) if I miss. Just like a 9mm.
Rule #4...Know what's behind your target (which gets a little "Gray" when the SHTF).
CarlosDJackal
06-20-08, 10:50
LOL. "the sound of a shotgun racking is the best home defense solution" LOL.
i always laugh at that. I'm sure it comes from some gunshop BS or some gunrag retard with a type writer.
Believe it or not I've heard this from LE FI-types over the years. I have to smirk (and bite my tongue) at that every time. I also heard a certified LE FI and newly minted lawyer state to a class that "The Shotgun was still the better weapon over the Patrol Rifle.." without any type of quantifying statement. I also had to bite my tongue!! :eek:
I also heard a certified LE FI and newly minted lawyer state to a class that "The Shotgun was still the better weapon over the Patrol Rifle.." without any type of quantifying statement.
I wouldn't have been able to sit silent for that statement. There's NOTHING that the shotgun does better than the Carbine for patrol/defensive work in my opinion.
Shotguns make very large holes in things...
Shotguns with Brenneke slugs penetrate objects better than 5.56 mm.
Shotguns work better on larger animals.
Shotguns make very large holes in things...
Shotguns with Brenneke slugs penetrate objects better than 5.56 mm.
Shotguns work better on larger animals.
True. If I were in bear country, I don't think I'd be thrilled with a 5.56 SBR! :D
In that case, I'd opt for a Slugged up shot gun between the two choices. But in the grand scheme of things, the Carbine is much more effective and versatile!
It's really bad over on TOS.
TOS is absolutely mind blowing. I can't believe some of the BS thats spouted over there.
Er, uh, um. . .Excuse my ignorance here, but what is TOS? :confused:
A buddy of mine said it best. Here's my shotgun/rifle/pistol as he handed me his SP1 carbean. I tend to agree.
Er, uh, um. . .Excuse my ignorance here, but what is TOS? :confused:
I would like to know also. I think it stands for THE OTHER SITE. But I'm not sure.
Given the widespread availability of this information for over a decade, I am shockingly surprised to read about the "overpenetration" with "high powered assault rifles". In this day and age anyone who is spouting this BS needs to be horsewhipped... Several respected organizations have done structural wall testing, including the FBI, CHP, and IWBA. In our IWBA and CHP testing, replicas of standard construction interior walls were fabricated using two pieces of 1/2” thick dry wall cut in 12” x 24” segments and mounted four inches apart using 2 x 4” fir studs and 1.5” dry wall screws. Five rounds of each load were first fired into bare gelatin to serve as controls. Then 5 shots of each load were shot through interior wall segments into gelatin blocks placed a set distance behind the intermediate barriers--various distances have been tested, typically ranging from 1 to 10 feet.
Generally, common service caliber JHP bullets failed to expand and had very deep, excessive penetration after passing through the interior wall, due to plugging of the hollow point. With the hollow point plugged, the bullets performed nearly identically to FMJ pistol bullets. The terminal performance of the 12 ga. 00 buckshot and slugs was not altered by passing through interior wall replicas, with penetration and deformation nearly identical with their performance in bare gelatin. Likewise, .308 rounds were not usually effected by the presence of an interior wall intermediate barrier.
With one exception, the majority of the 5.56 mm/.223 loads, including M855 62 gr "green-tip" FMJ, which were fired through interior walls demonstrated either minimal changes in terminal performance compared with bare gelatin or reduced penetration. The major exception were 55 gr M193 style FMJ projectiles which exhibited minimal fragmentation and deformation after first passing through interior wall replicas and hence penetrated deeper than in bare gel. Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons.
Obviously, it is important to keep in mind that purpose built barrier blind 5.56 mm/.223 projectiles, such as the 55 & 62 gr Federal Tactical JSP’s and the Nosler 60 gr Partition, will offer deeper penetration than fragmenting designs and may exit.
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1620135812171.jpg
Ridgerunner665
06-20-08, 22:12
Sorry to repeat post...
Doc,
I asked this question earlier today on another thread, but you must not have noticed it...
You mentioned once before that you were testing the Barnes TSX bullets...how did they do for you?
I have been playing around with the 62 grain version and I like it for a hunting (and everything else) bullet...having seen what it can do to coyotes shot from end to end and penetrating steel plates and glass.
I'd like to hear the professional opinion...You most likely tested it more thoroughly than I did in my backyard tests.
The TSX is a good expanding, relatively barrier blind bullet. Because it does not fragment and usually retains nearly full weight, you can use a lighter bullet and still maintain adequate penetration. They also work well in SBR's. The only downside is a tendency to strip off the expanded "petals" when penetrating automobile windshields, leaving a caliber core, kind of like a wadcutter. When I get time, I'll try to eventually put up some images.
Ridgerunner665
06-20-08, 22:33
Thank You...I look forward to your pics and info.
Most of mine stripped the petals through glass, but they penetrated steel pretty good...it appeared that they closed up (flattened may be a more accurate description) instead of opening on the steel.
They do penetrate don't they...from brisket to butthole on coyotes.
Mine were reloads...using 26 grains of Reloder 15... 2900 fps muzzle velocity from a 16 inch barrel.
Ridgerunner665
06-20-08, 22:46
Here is a 62 grain TSX after being fired into slate rock (sorta soft rock)...it penetrated about 8 inches...Redneck hard barrier testing ;) ...done safely though, from behind a tree.
Retained weight was 43 grains...Pretty much identical to what they looked like fired through car windshields...but I don't have pics of those.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/122_2204.jpg
My wife won't go for the evil rifle by the bed either.
Hopefully it won't take a tragic incident to change her mind.
Er, uh, um. . .Excuse my ignorance here, but what is TOS? :confused:
I would like to know also. I think it stands for THE OTHER SITE. But I'm not sure.
I think it's a reference to AR15.com
Brian
Yes. That is correct. AR15.com "for the Win" :rolleyes:
Guess I am going to ditch the Glock 22 in the quick safe and pull out the old AR for home defense...not likey as I don't want ot have to go room with a few of the other guys on here who tried that. My wife won't go for the evil rifle by the bed either. Really good info. Thank you very much for the chart.
When my wife gave me shit for switching from a 12ga. to an 5.56 AR(the 870 doesnt look mean:rolleyes: ) I sat her down and explained the criminal,civil,moral ramifications of a errant projectile exiting our home and striking an innocent she changed her tune.
Now if I could only come up with a rational reason to get another car(i'm on notice one more and its over:rolleyes:) .I only have 4 non daily drivers :) .
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