View Full Version : GLOCK reliability
In a recent article on MSW, Hilton wrote of polymer pistol (GLOCK and M&P) reliability. His advice was to run the pistols mainly with OEM parts and made this reference: "...Glock most commonly has suffered from extraction and ejection issues (in the transition to Gen4 production), if it suffers at all. A correct combination of the updated factory parts (current extractor with correct springs/plungers, updated ejector, correct recoil spring assembly) is now typically a sufficient fix."
Thanks Hilton for the update and info, but can anyone produce a list of the current "correct" parts for Gen3 and Gen4 9mm and .40SW pistols? I'm not due for my armorer recert until November and I'd like to get the info before then....
Thanks to all.
I assume the parts needed to make these God damned guns run is an out of pocket expense to the owner eh?
I have one of the shit G17s, and really don't want to play guessing mix and match on my own fukking dime.
Preach. Why in the hello kitty have they not put out a damn package with the correct RSA/30274 ejector/ dip lci or whatever the fudge unicorn parts are needed? Its hard to track down "if your glock feeds you brass, buy this:"
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm really glad that I didn't have to deal with that headache on G19 or G26. I did make sure that they had the 30274 ejector before I took them home, though.
I must be lucky. I am at the 3500 round mark on my Glock 17 Gen 4 purchased brand new Nov last year. No hiccups other than some weak Geco ammo not cycling the slide, causing a malfunction.
Boringly reliable function, no erratic ejection or brass to face.
Cleaned three times and I use Fireclean as lube.
Is there a way to tell if I have the correct ejector/extractor?
I assume the parts needed to make these God damned guns run is an out of pocket expense to the owner eh?
I have one of the shit G17s, and really don't want to play guessing mix and match on my own fukking dime.
You need all the parts because what makes it run, may be any combination of parts from Gen2-4, including some from Apex and White Sound. It's a mix 'n match guessing game.
OTOH, a few hours in an armorers class and you can take any 5" Colt, with Colt and/or Wilson parts and make a 1911 run better than any Glock. If it needs anything at all. But you know, they're obsolete and all that, so you gotta run what the cool kids run...
In a recent article on MSW, Hilton wrote of polymer pistol (GLOCK and M&P) reliability. His advice was to run the pistols mainly with OEM parts and made this reference: "...Glock most commonly has suffered from extraction and ejection issues (in the transition to Gen4 production), if it suffers at all. A correct combination of the updated factory parts (current extractor with correct springs/plungers, updated ejector, correct recoil spring assembly) is now typically a sufficient fix."
Thanks Hilton for the update and info, but can anyone produce a list of the current "correct" parts for Gen3 and Gen4 9mm and .40SW pistols? I'm not due for my armorer recert until November and I'd like to get the info before then....
Thanks to all.
Gen 4 9mm - Trigger Housing 30275 - ejector 30274; G17/34 recoil 08284 marked 024; G19 recoil 8703 marked 043;
Gen 4 .40 - Trigger Housing 28927 - ejector 28926; G22/31/35/37 recoil 07577 marked 014;
Gen4 .45/10mm - Trigger housing 05406 - ejector 8196-2; recoil spring 30077 marked 072:
Gen 4 .45/10mm Short Frame - Trigger Housing 08203 - ejector 8196-2; recoil spring 30077 marked 072.
As of 3/17/14. Your on your own for Gens 1 - 2 - 3. Send me an email and I'll scan the parts list and send it to you.
Straight Shooter
07-16-14, 17:40
As Ive posted here before... I got lucky with an $8 part from Midway...the 30274 ejector. Pistol has been run now for a few thousand rounds...including July 4th shoot with latest 300 or so downrange. NO btf since new install. Id try this FIRST before anything else, or giving up on the gun.
Straight Shooter
07-16-14, 19:08
I must be lucky. I am at the 3500 round mark on my Glock 17 Gen 4 purchased brand new Nov last year. No hiccups other than some weak Geco ammo not cycling the slide, causing a malfunction.
Boringly reliable function, no erratic ejection or brass to face.
Cleaned three times and I use Fireclean as lube.
Is there a way to tell if I have the correct ejector/extractor?
Yes...by putting 3500 rounds thru it and having no hiccups! Id say you are ok!!
Gen 4 9mm - Trigger Housing 30275 - ejector 30274; G17/34 recoil 08284 marked 024; G19 recoil 8703 marked 043;
Gen 4 .40 - Trigger Housing 28927 - ejector 28926; G22/31/35/37 recoil 07577 marked 014;
Gen4 .45/10mm - Trigger housing 05406 - ejector 8196-2; recoil spring 30077 marked 072:
Gen 4 .45/10mm Short Frame - Trigger Housing 08203 - ejector 8196-2; recoil spring 30077 marked 072.
As of 3/17/14. Your on your own for Gens 1 - 2 - 3. Send me an email and I'll scan the parts list and send it to you.
AND when I buy a brand new pistol "IF" it doesn't run right out of the box, I need to spend more money and try to fix it my self. I really wanted a G19 BUT NO FUKY WAY! PPQ or VP9!
thebarracuda
07-16-14, 20:09
Im bookmarking this thread straight shooter. I get to enjoy brass to face perfection on a regular basis from my g19. The thought of buying some/all or what combination of parts just makes my head hurt. Ill try this first.
Straight Shooter
07-16-14, 21:15
Cuda...let us/me know how it works for you, ok?
wildcard600
07-16-14, 21:37
seems that glock reliabilty = gen2 or early gen3.
fwiw/imho/ymmv:
I buy/have/use the Glock platform since I am most familiar with it, haven't mastered it so no need to change till I achieve "my" goals . . . long road . . . probably without an end . . . after that "why would I change"
* No other handgun will make me a better shooter at this point, its all me . . . more time = more skill
Gen1-4: Just shoot it, doesn't preform: swap parts - parts are cheap, plentiful, proven = Done. . . . . keeps going & going . . . but, this "usually" applies to most ALL quality firearms.
^ All of these have been reliable for me, haven't had one not perform.
* I stick with a formula of parts that work & anything I get my hands on, gets those parts.
"To each their own":
All the "reasons" that are PROs to the Glock: Google for days
All the "opinions" on CONs to the Glock: Google for days
Depending on application, but majority of the time: New Sights; OE springs & things get "attention", Match barrel gets fitted, Frame gets a face lift for ergo/traction
For "me":
Striker/Polymer = Glock
SA/Steel = 1911
DA/SA = CZ
^ All above, Just a tool for this/that . . . Shoot it like a rental
seems that glock reliabilty = gen2 or early gen3.
I don't know about that.
The internet has made it sound that way though.
Failure2Stop
07-17-14, 06:11
When the gen 4 guns initially hit the market, there was also issue with date-similar gen 3 guns.
It has become apparent that prior to and past that date range, the guns are fine.
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 06:19
When the gen 4 guns initially hit the market, there was also issue with date-similar gen 3 guns.
It has become apparent that prior to and past that date range, the guns are fine.
My Gen 4 G 19 manufactured Jan 2014 had multiple brass to face. I had installed an apex gen 3 extractor to correct this. Over 1700 rds since and its still gtg.
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 06:21
seems that glock reliabilty = gen2 or early gen3.
there are many gen 2 g 19 that have btf issues
And the famous NYPD stoppages- weren't those gen2 too?
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 08:58
And the famous NYPD stoppages- weren't those gen2 too?
I don't recall reading about any stoppages, there was a AD or slam fire with an early gen 2, supposedly by a NYPD detective . Which prompted Glock to make an upgrade, I just did on mine recently
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 09:56
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html
Well according to the article it's all generations
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 09:58
Would be interesting to know what constitutes extensive use
I have 2670 rds on my gen 4, 19 without any stoppages so far
DreadPirateMoyer
07-17-14, 10:36
When the gen 4 guns initially hit the market, there was also issue with date-similar gen 3 guns.
It has become apparent that prior to and past that date range, the guns are fine.
Huh? Apparent to who? I've personally owned and fixed multiple recent-production 9mm Glocks that spit BTF right out of the box, and there are still a swath of others that experience the same here on M4C (the 100+ page thread is a good look). Ken Hackathorn's recent comments and those of others who see hundreds/thousands of Glocks per year also reflect this.
When did the guns being fine become apparent? Because I and the Glocks I've seen sure missed the memo.
Free Agent
07-17-14, 13:28
Gen 4 9mm - Trigger Housing 30275 - ejector 30274; G17/34 recoil 08284 marked 024; G19 recoil 8703 marked 043;
My gen4 17 has all those parts and I get constant brass to face.
Failure2Stop
07-17-14, 13:37
Huh? Apparent to who? I've personally owned and fixed multiple recent-production 9mm Glocks that spit BTF right out of the box, and there are still a swath of others that experience the same here on M4C (the 100+ page thread is a good look). Ken Hackathorn's recent comments and those of others who see hundreds/thousands of Glocks per year also reflect this.
When did the guns being fine become apparent? Because I and the Glocks I've seen sure missed the memo.
Right off the bat, I do not believe that BTF is a non-issue, and it is certainly not something that should be glossed over.
However, 12:00 ejection is not the same as a stoppage or functional impairment.
The problem date era guns had issues beyond BTF, which is what I was referring to.
I have 3 Gen 4 G17s and a Gen 4 G19, none of which show propensity for BTF. My sample size is insufficient to use as a data point to say that all Gen 4 17s/19s are free of BTF, but I do see quite a few Glocks in use, and recent production (as determined by date on fired case envelope) seem to indicate a lower BTF probability.
Recent production (2013 and newer) have shown far fewer FTEj (most observed issue) than were seen in the problem date range.
Function is what I link to reliability.
One could certainly say that BTF is an impediment to use, but the gun is still working.
Right off the bat, I do not believe that BTF is a non-issue, and it is certainly not something that should be glossed over.
However, 12:00 ejection is not the same as a stoppage or functional impairment.
The problem date era guns had issues beyond BTF, which is what I was referring to.
I have 3 Gen 4 G17s and a Gen 4 G19, none of which show propensity for BTF. My sample size is insufficient to use as a data point to say that all Gen 4 17s/19s are free of BTF, but I do see quite a few Glocks in use, and recent production (as determined by date on fired case envelope) seem to indicate a lower BTF probability.
Recent production (2013 and newer) have shown far fewer FTEj (most observed issue) than were seen in the problem date range.
Function is what I link to reliability.
One could certainly say that BTF is an impediment to use, but the gun is still working.
Well said. I have a Gen4 19 with about 2.5k through it. I know this isn't a high round count but mine has been extremely reliable with no stoppages or BTF. More reliable than my HK's. My glock was manufactured in November 2013.
I cant speak about pre-2013 guns but I'm sure it really is a problem and not merely coincidence.
Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
Glocks have always had poor ejection.
I first experienced it with a 3rd gen 17L. It had an exceptionally mushy trigger and dribbled brass out on my arm and face.
That was in about '07. I also had a 2nd gen 17 that occasionally did it. My 4th gen 19 was perfect and my favorite Glock.
Tomahawk_Ghost
07-17-14, 15:09
I don't recall reading about any stoppages, there was a AD or slam fire with an early gen 2, supposedly by a NYPD detective . Which prompted Glock to make an upgrade, I just did on mine recently
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 15:20
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html
someone else already posted that link, and I have since commented on it
Doc Safari
07-17-14, 16:01
I accidentally came across a fool-proof answer to Glock's reliability problems. I don't own one anymore.
Phillygunguy
07-17-14, 16:56
I accidentally came across a fool-proof answer to Glock's reliability problems. I don't own one anymore.
Guess you can't be Glockster anymore [emoji14]
DreadPirateMoyer
07-17-14, 18:21
Right off the bat, I do not believe that BTF is a non-issue, and it is certainly not something that should be glossed over.
However, 12:00 ejection is not the same as a stoppage or functional impairment.
The problem date era guns had issues beyond BTF, which is what I was referring to.
I have 3 Gen 4 G17s and a Gen 4 G19, none of which show propensity for BTF. My sample size is insufficient to use as a data point to say that all Gen 4 17s/19s are free of BTF, but I do see quite a few Glocks in use, and recent production (as determined by date on fired case envelope) seem to indicate a lower BTF probability.
Recent production (2013 and newer) have shown far fewer FTEj (most observed issue) than were seen in the problem date range.
Function is what I link to reliability.
One could certainly say that BTF is an impediment to use, but the gun is still working.
That makes sense. You're certainly correct about the early ones having reliability issues as compared to the (comparatively) simple BTF issues of recent-production Glocks, which lack the earlier issues.
Sorry for jumping like that, in that case. I just get so fired up when I see the BTF problems rejected due to my experiences with them (had 4x 17s in a row with BTF, and 1x 19) and the amount of money and labor I put into fixing them. That wasn't the case here, so mea culpa; just speaking about two different things.
ETA: as far as those glossing over this saying "Glocks have always had BTF," no, not like this: 2-5 per magazine is far different than the occasional BTF old Glocks used to have. As for my stake in this, it's just trying to ward others away from the travesty that is post-2010 Glock, as I'm with Doc Glockster: I solved my Glock problems by not owning them anymore, and every person that can be sold on an HK, Beretta, CZ, or Walther is a victory for gun owners as a whole.
Right off the bat, I do not believe that BTF is a non-issue, and it is certainly not something that should be glossed over.
However, 12:00 ejection is not the same as a stoppage or functional impairment.
The problem date era guns had issues beyond BTF, which is what I was referring to.
I have 3 Gen 4 G17s and a Gen 4 G19, none of which show propensity for BTF. My sample size is insufficient to use as a data point to say that all Gen 4 17s/19s are free of BTF, but I do see quite a few Glocks in use, and recent production (as determined by date on fired case envelope) seem to indicate a lower BTF probability.
Recent production (2013 and newer) have shown far fewer FTEj (most observed issue) than were seen in the problem date range.
Function is what I link to reliability.
One could certainly say that BTF is an impediment to use, but the gun is still working.
My family's shooters have 16 Glocks now. All 9mm except two .40s. Only 3 of those guns pre-date 2010. Eight of them are Gen 4s. Round counts range from 1200 on an FDE Gen 3 G19 I picked up this year to 11K on one of the first Gen 4 G17s to hit the market locally in the Spring of 2010. That gun is still running its orginal unmarked RSA.
They all run great. I've seen one bad gun in that time, an OD Gen 4 G21 with a horrendous slide to frame fit than ran but was not accurate.
I think the key is to buy them in north Georgia where the guns get the FBI/SOCOM contract quality inspections or something. ;)
Two brother in laws in different parts of the country, a nephew, a friend, and two co-workers have chosen G17s or G19s in the last two years and their guns run well albeit they don't pound them with the volume we do.
I accidentally came across a fool-proof answer to Glock's reliability problems. I don't own one anymore.
Same thing happened to me!
........
Function is what I link to reliability.
One could certainly say that BTF is an impediment to use, but the gun is still working.
This sums it up nicely. On a recent trip to the range, someone else pointed out that a lot of the brass ejecting from my Glock 17 was hitting my forehead. I was so focused on the shooting process, I did not even notice until he mentioned it. It was a little annoying, but the pistol ran without a malfunction for over 400 rounds.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-18-14, 11:09
This sums it up nicely. On a recent trip to the range, someone else pointed out that a lot of the brass ejecting from my Glock 17 was hitting my forehead. I was so focused on the shooting process, I did not even notice until he mentioned it. It was a little annoying, but the pistol ran without a malfunction for over 400 rounds.
Wait until the sharp edge of a case cuts your forehead, or a case finds that one slot between your glasses and eye and burns you, or falls into a shirt and does the same, or flings in the middle of a self-defense scenario into your dominant eye.
You'll notice it then.
Doc Safari
07-18-14, 11:22
Wait until the sharp edge of a case cuts your forehead, or a case finds that one slot between your glasses and eye and burns you, or falls into a shirt and does the same, or flings in the middle of a self-defense scenario into your dominant eye.
You'll notice it then.
Amen. Been there done that. Even if you buy the argument that you'll never notice it under stress, it will cause you to flinch during training, and that's enough of an indictment to disqualify the whole platform as a viable defensive weapon. To repeat an analogy I heard at the range: "It's hard to play the piano when someone is throwing tennis balls at you."
Glock has been given a pass for its many "quirks" for too long. Unfortunately, the company's reputation and mystique have caused people to heap excess praise on a pistol that is basically a "budget line" handgun compared to other offerings. Although the gun justifiably has a reputation for feeding nearly any reasonable round of ammo, its other problems negate this to some extent.
Sure, you might spend three or four times the price of a Glock to get another pistol that feeds everything, but you also don't have to tolerate brass to the face, Phase 3 malfunctions, inexplicable kaBooms, bent or broken dust cover rails, cracked breach faces, and on and on...
Phillygunguy
07-18-14, 11:59
I'm not ready to dismiss Glock entirely. I know there's issues, but any pistol can have problems I think Glock currently has QC issues that they have been pretty shitty about admitting. Are there better hand guns out there ? Sure but if someone tries hard enough in sure you can find something wrong with it. I read about issues with the PPQ rounds getting stuck half way through the magazine even read where the frame cracked after an altercation. The HK p30 triggers are something to be desired depending on what version you get the new VP 9 looks awesome, but is still new
and no one knows what problem could arise. M&Ps I owned the triggers sucked Not all glocks are bad there's plenty of people who had good experience with them
I had both good and bad. Plus the availability of parts compared to others is plentiful I'm not a Glock fan boy either I owned an m&p currently own a ppq p30 but still carry my Glock 19 . Why? I'm confident in it. True I did put an Apex extractor in it but it works. Plus it's holds 15 rounds and isn't the size of a duty gun
Wait until the sharp edge of a case cuts your forehead, or a case finds that one slot between your glasses and eye and burns you, or falls into a shirt and does the same, or flings in the middle of a self-defense scenario into your dominant eye.
You'll notice it then.Am I weird wearing a hat when I shoot?
Amp Mangum
07-18-14, 12:16
Check out the ejection patterns of the different Glocks at our local IDPA match last Saturday. Not sure of the generations except for the SO who is shooting a recent Gen 3 17.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY4C9SNPkYU
Apex Tactical extractor kit and proper ejector cured mine. I also used the little plastic "nipple" from the .40 S&W on the end of the extractor rod to give it extra extractor tension.
Ejects like a Sig P226: CONSISTENT 4 o'clock; one pile.
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Wait until the sharp edge of a case cuts your forehead, or a case finds that one slot between your glasses and eye and burns you, or falls into a shirt and does the same, or flings in the middle of a self-defense scenario into your dominant eye.
You'll notice it then.
If you saw me, you would understand that a few more marks won't effect my chances at being a male model.
Most of the ejected brass was flying over my right shoulder with some over the top of my head. I was too focused on the sights to notice.
I'll try putting older parts I have on hand in the pistol and see if anything changes.
Howdy,
Yes...by putting 3500 rounds thru it and having no hiccups! Id say you are ok!!
I have a Gen3 G23 with +20,000rds without a hiccup and except for the RSA and the slide stop/catch/release thingy it's all original. Plus it has another 15,000rds through it with a LW 40-9mm conversion barrel and 25,000rds with a Ciener .22LR conversion kit.
I have a Gen3 G35 that's all original except for the RSA and slide stop/catch/release thingy ( I replaced the OEM extended unit with a non-extended unit and it's fired +15,000rds with a hiccup.
Gen2 G20 +7,500rds without a hiccup.
Ex-BIL G19 Gen3 +15,000rds without a hiccup.
Based on personal experience most Glock "hiccups" are shooter related not the gun.
I was watching a YouTube vid of a man shooting a Gen4 G17 and he was complaining about the BTF issue. Every time he would get BTF he would change his grip, tilt the pistol and was allowing it to "limp wrist". It was so obvious what was happening.
Paul
I don't know about that.
The internet has made it sound that way though.
Similar to the M&P 9mm FS being the only model that had some with accuracy issues = all M&P's suffered poor accuracy and should be avoided. Good old internet.
Wait until the sharp edge of a case cuts your forehead, or a case finds that one slot between your glasses and eye and burns you, or falls into a shirt and does the same, or flings in the middle of a self-defense scenario into your dominant eye.
You'll notice it then.
I agree - more than a rare stoning to the face/forehead is grounds for remediation.
Am I weird wearing a hat when I shoot?
Normal. Do you always wear a hat or safety glasses when you are carrying your gun? Nope. That is why BTF is an important issue to pay attention to.
C4
Phillygunguy
07-18-14, 16:56
Normal. Do you always wear a hat or safety glasses when you are carrying your gun? Nope. That is why BTF is an important issue to pay attention to.
C4
True and we typically don't wear hearing protection the loud bang is probably worse than btf
True and we typically don't wear hearing protection the loud bang is probably worse than btf
My experience with hot brass to the eye caused me to close my and look down (rapidly). Having shot guns without hearing protection (both by accident and on purpose) did not.
C4
MSparks909
07-18-14, 18:42
Have a Gen4 19 with the 30274 ejector. 2,000 rounds and no malfunctions/brass to the face/odd ejection patterns. Ejection is strong and consistent. Have a Gen4 34 with the 30274 ejector. 5,000 rounds and no malfunctions/brass to the face/odd ejection patterns. Just replaced the recoil spring on the 34. Just picked up a Gen3 17 (USA made) and it has the 336 ejector. Planning on putting ~150 through it tomorrow alongside my new FNS 9. I'll post if I have any issues.
What is BTF? How is it defined?
How frequently does it need to occur to be a "BTF"-affected gun?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defined) occurs in the hands of one shooter and not another, what then?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defines) occurs with one cartridge and not another, what then?
Phillygunguy
07-18-14, 23:39
What is BTF? How is it defined?
How frequently does it need to occur to be a "BTF"-affected gun?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defined) occurs in the hands of one shooter and not another, what then?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defines) occurs with one cartridge and not another, what then?
I define it as consistently getting btf be it every magazine or 1
in 100 rds is unacceptable. I would say maybe 1 in 500 would be tolerated but it' really shouldn't happen every time one goes to the range. JMHO
Heavy Metal
07-19-14, 00:11
Have a Gen4 19 with the 30274 ejector. 2,000 rounds and no malfunctions/brass to the face/odd ejection patterns. Ejection is strong and consistent. Have a Gen4 34 with the 30274 ejector. 5,000 rounds and no malfunctions/brass to the face/odd ejection patterns. Just replaced the recoil spring on the 34. Just picked up a Gen3 17 (USA made) and it has the 336 ejector. Planning on putting ~150 through it tomorrow alongside my new FNS 9. I'll post if I have any issues.
My Gen 4 34 ejects fine but it sometimes seems funny because the brass is bouncing off my right forearm. None to the face.
What is BTF? How is it defined?
How frequently does it need to occur to be a "BTF"-affected gun?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defined) occurs in the hands of one shooter and not another, what then?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defines) occurs with one cartridge and not another, what then?
I believe it is "brass to the face". I had a gen3 G19 that was consistently ejecting BTF with "normal" loadings. With +P's it would clear the ejected brass better, with weaker loads it would barely dribble out of the gun.
What is BTF? How is it defined?
How frequently does it need to occur to be a "BTF"-affected gun?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defined) occurs in the hands of one shooter and not another, what then?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defines) occurs with one cartridge and not another, what then?
What you just said is what defines Glocks as inconsistent PsOS.
If you want one, be prepared to tinker around and/or buy several until you find one that runs well for you...
Larry Vickers
07-19-14, 08:53
seems that glock reliabilty = gen2 or early gen3.
That's been my experience in the G17 and G19
G22 and G23 that doesn't apply as they have been problematic with certain ammo / light combos from day one
Larry Vickers
07-19-14, 08:54
What you just said is what defines Glocks as inconsistent PsOS.
If you want one, be prepared to tinker around and/or buy several until you find one that runs well for you...
Or buy a VP9
What is BTF? How is it defined?
How frequently does it need to occur to be a "BTF"-affected gun?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defined) occurs in the hands of one shooter and not another, what then?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defines) occurs with one cartridge and not another, what then?
It will be user dependent I think as we all are all different. For me, once per mag would do it for sure.
I think all that matters is how that gun performs for you. Meaning that if BTF does not happen when "your buddy" shoots it, that is irrelevant (as they are not going to be shooting said pistol in times of "need").
C4
What is BTF? How is it defined?
How frequently does it need to occur to be a "BTF"-affected gun?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defined) occurs in the hands of one shooter and not another, what then?
In a given gun, if "BTF" (as defines) occurs with one cartridge and not another, what then?
A friend has an OLD single pin Gen 3 that I've shot a good bit. Perfect. For her, about 4-5 out of 50 will stone her in the forehead - I "think" as she tires through a magazine. We got the extractor replaced in an upgrade at a GSSF match and we'll see how it goes.
Or buy a VP9
This. Every time people complain or want to upgrade their Glock, I recommend to buy a better gun.
There's a reason why Glocks are one of the cheapest handguns on the market....
Phillygunguy
07-19-14, 14:13
This. Every time people complain or want to upgrade their Glock, I recommend to buy a better gun.
There's a reason why Glocks are one of the cheapest handguns on the market....
I think a big part of it is marketing. Glock does a better job, plus there are plenty of cheap after market parts. HK has a great reputation, but people still think there CS sucks and have the " hate you"mentality. Walther hardly any parts availability except Earls and even then his prices are high. Plus a lot of law enforcement agencies aren't willing to adopt anything over their budget.
Heavy Metal
07-19-14, 15:40
A friend has an OLD single pin Gen 3 that I've shot a good bit. Perfect. For her, about 4-5 out of 50 will stone her in the forehead - I "think" as she tires through a magazine. We got the extractor replaced in an upgrade at a GSSF match and we'll see how it goes.
I would have fitted a Gen 4 Ejector to it first.
I've always noticed that the only Glocks you see with malfunction syndrome, are glocks that the owners modified to "upgrade".
Phillygunguy
07-19-14, 16:11
I've always noticed that the only Glocks you see with malfunction syndrome, are glocks that the owners modified to "upgrade".
There's hundreds of pages on this forum about Glock issues NOT related to modified upgrades
I work for a good size agency, have been to plenty of classes and trainings. The vast majority of Glocks are problem free, as are HK's and not far behind S&W's. Glock did stub their toe for a time around the time of the Gen 4 roll out but even Hilton Yam who is pretty critical is saying they're good to go. This whole solved my Glock by getting rid of it is I think a bit overblown. HK probably is the cream of the crop (loved my HK USP 45's) but they lack in one key area.....no Safarand 6360 holsters for them with a light. Glock or M&P, shoot to verify for reliability like you should anyhow and you'll be just fine. For the record I am not a traditional Glock guy, but the gen 4 17 I picked up has me impressed.
My Gen3 17 I bought arount the time the Gen4's were getting out had the erratic ejection problem, dropping a few $ on a 30274 ejector solved the issue and it's been that way for a few thousand rounds now.
My most recent Glock addition (gen 4 17) had some major issues. One: the trigger wouldn't reset all the way back to ready. Two: inaccurate as ****. Three: trigger bar release of the striker caused the whole pistol to shake upon pressing the trigger. Four: erratic ejection even with the proper ejector from the factory. Promptly traded it for a PPQ
My 3rd gen 26 is very accurate, no trigger issues, but does sling brass over my head every third round or so..
FollowThru
07-20-14, 00:21
I have two Glocks, a Gen 3 & 4 and both work fine. To be honest it's 1911s & AR-15s that out of the box you have to start buying parts/machining to get them to work to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of $$$ to just make them work. An out of the box 1911 is a crap shoot and a gun I would NOT recommend to someone because of all its issues and AR-15s are close behind. So I'd say Glocks all in all are excellent.
Phillygunguy
07-20-14, 00:43
I have two Glocks, a Gen 3 & 4 and both work fine. To be honest it's 1911s & AR-15s that out of the box you have to start buying parts/machining to get them to work to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of $$$ to just make them work. An out of the box 1911 is a crap shoot and a gun I would NOT recommend to someone because of all its issues and AR-15s are close behind. So I'd say Glocks all in all are excellent.
How many rounds have you put through your Glock ? Did you pay attention to see if you were getting btf ? What AR 15 do you own that you have to start buying parts/ machining for thousands of $$$ did you need ? I have a quality ARs that work fine out of the box
fwiw/imho:
Kind of early to say, but the new HK VP9 is probably the best striker fired platform right out of the box for someone that doesn't want to "make changes" if needed. I personally still view HK product line as being that, tested quality reliable products.
Think many LE dept. will look at it as a future service pistol replacement. It's accurate from the start, has the right pieces form the factory, nice trigger, metal sights, grip ergo, to make it fit for a wide range of shooters for duty. Don't quote me, but I believe I saw something about the frame rails being replaceable, that's a big plus compared to swapping frames and logging new SN. Many Glock issued shooters had to adapt to what was given, it works, just takes practice. As we know, not everyone puts in the time to be as proficient with their sidearm as they should, but that is another thread.
Also, I'm sure once the aftermarket comes into play the HK VP9 will be very competitive in SSP/Production division as well.
Again, Imho:
It's sad to say, but I don't expect majority of the firearms on the market to be 100% grab and go. I don't care if its metal or plastic, it is what it is. Most have fixes or better material replacements. Once setup, most everything will run smooth with proper maintenance.
The Glock platform, yes, some overblown <"opinion, issues that have remedies: Apex Tactical. Once sorted out = GTG. I stick with Glock as I'm up to my knees in support gear: mags, holsters, mag pouches, extra parts, etc.
Main reason, I've shot a Glock for so dang long it's what I know. Not that I couldn't adapt to another, but find no need to at this time. Another platform wouldn't help me become faster or more accurate, only training dry/live fire will. Always trying to be a better Indian
I sold off my previous early Gen models for Gen4 frames. Why? simple as the Mag release and the slight F/R reduction fits me better.
In current production models the better lock up is nice, but I can care less for barrels, ignition, sights, recoil springs, etc. since I have my own personal preference, "To each their own".
I've reduced previous Gen Glocks to fit the same or better, but again I like the Gen4 release better. To point out, never had an issue with the Gen3 release but times were more consistent with the Gen4.
I like everything about the HK VP9 but its in the G17 size category and really hope HK comes out with a G19 size variant, maybe keep the slide the same & just reduce the grip height ;)
"To each their own"
teutonicpolymer
07-20-14, 10:19
I work for a good size agency, have been to plenty of classes and trainings. The vast majority of Glocks are problem free, as are HK's and not far behind S&W's. Glock did stub their toe for a time around the time of the Gen 4 roll out but even Hilton Yam who is pretty critical is saying they're good to go. This whole solved my Glock by getting rid of it is I think a bit overblown. HK probably is the cream of the crop (loved my HK USP 45's) but they lack in one key area.....no Safarand 6360 holsters for them with a light. Glock or M&P, shoot to verify for reliability like you should anyhow and you'll be just fine. For the record I am not a traditional Glock guy, but the gen 4 17 I picked up has me impressed.
I agree with most of your points minus the general HK superiority. The DA/SA HK guns just have terrible triggers across the board and the USP series ergonomics just do not work for me. The VP9 seems to resolve these issues and I plan on picking one up when I can. Will it replace all Glocks in my eyes? No, because it is in awkward (in my opinion) size category between the 19 and 17 and I am also a big lover of the 34 and 20, and to a smaller extent, the 26.
I have two Glocks, a Gen 3 & 4 and both work fine. To be honest it's 1911s & AR-15s that out of the box you have to start buying parts/machining to get them to work to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of $$$ to just make them work. An out of the box 1911 is a crap shoot and a gun I would NOT recommend to someone because of all its issues and AR-15s are close behind. So I'd say Glocks all in all are excellent.
I think you might be exagerrating a fair amount concerning 1911s and a hell of a lot concerning ar15s. On the other hand Glocks are also not perfect but the issues are not that big a deal to me. Some Glocks do have issues with ejection patterns but since Ichave not noticed much of a problem with reliability, I just deal with the occasional but annoying brass to face while making sure to wear eye pro.
fwiw/imho:
Kind of early to say, but the new HK VP9 is probably the best striker fired platform right out of the box for someone that doesn't want to "make changes" if needed. I personally still view HK product line as being that, tested quality reliable products.
Think many LE dept. will look at it as a future service pistol replacement. It's accurate from the start, has the right pieces form the factory, nice trigger, metal sights, grip ergo, to make it fit for a wide range of shooters for duty. Don't quote me, but I believe I saw something about the frame rails being replaceable, that's a big plus compared to swapping frames and logging new SN. Many Glock issued shooters had to adapt to what was given, it works, just takes practice. As we know, not everyone puts in the time to be as proficient with their sidearm as they should, but that is another thread.
Also, I'm sure once the aftermarket comes into play the HK VP9 will be very competitive in SSP/Production division as well.
Again, Imho:
It's sad to say, but I don't expect majority of the firearms on the market to be 100% grab and go. I don't care if its metal or plastic, it is what it is. Most have fixes or better material replacements. Once setup, most everything will run smooth with proper maintenance.
The Glock platform, yes, some overblown <"opinion, issues that have remedies: Apex Tactical. Once sorted out = GTG. I stick with Glock as I'm up to my knees in support gear: mags, holsters, mag pouches, extra parts, etc.
Main reason, I've shot a Glock for so dang long it's what I know. Not that I couldn't adapt to another, but find no need to at this time. Another platform wouldn't help me become faster or more accurate, only training dry/live fire will. Always trying to be a better Indian
I sold off my previous early Gen models for Gen4 frames. Why? simple as the Mag release and the slight F/R reduction fits me better.
In current production models the better lock up is nice, but I can care less for barrels, ignition, sights, recoil springs, etc. since I have my own personal preference, "To each their own".
I've reduced previous Gen Glocks to fit the same or better, but again I like the Gen4 release better. To point out, never had an issue with the Gen3 release but times were more consistent with the Gen4.
I like everything about the HK VP9 but its in the G17 size category and really hope HK comes out with a G19 size variant, maybe keep the slide the same & just reduce the grip height ;)
"To each their own"
I agree about the size. I would like to see a longslide version to just firmly put it into the full size category, at which point I think it could give the G34 a run for its money.
I have one of the first production run Gen4 17's and indeed it did develop a BTF issue right around the 1500-2000 round mark. I would normally get 3-4 rounds per magazine that had very erratic ejection patterns. From ejecting to my support (left) side, to just dribbling out of the ejection port, to coming straight back at me. This was a constant from round 2K to the 25K mark and it remained that way up to the 25K mark when I finally changed out to the 042 RSA and the 30274 ejector. I actually had a video on the topic where I made the change of parts for the very first time and did it on video. I fired 60 rounds and then immediately swapped parts and fired 60 more rounds. For my pistol it was an immediate change. Since that change to the 042 RSA and 30274 ejector I have been trouble free with this same Gen4 G17 and it is right around the 50K mark now.
Since March I have been seeing 40 new Gen4 G17's (W series mostly) pistols per week and I have personally signed off on around 600 or so. Another training group has also seen that many, so since March we have seen 1200 Gen4 G17's and all getting right at 300 rounds through them prior to being put into service. I have tracked everything and in short I have zero problems in picking up a new Gen4 G17.
alcante262
07-20-14, 13:47
Never had any problems with Glocks and Ive owned 5 of them.Every once in awhile at range a stovepipe or failure to feed.Ammo was always the culprit.
I have one of the first production run Gen4 17's and indeed it did develop a BTF issue right around the 1500-2000 round mark. I would normally get 3-4 rounds per magazine that had very erratic ejection patterns. From ejecting to my support (left) side, to just dribbling out of the ejection port, to coming straight back at me. This was a constant from round 2K to the 25K mark and it remained that way up to the 25K mark when I finally changed out to the 042 RSA and the 30274 ejector. I actually had a video on the topic where I made the change of parts for the very first time and did it on video. I fired 60 rounds and then immediately swapped parts and fired 60 more rounds. For my pistol it was an immediate change. Since that change to the 042 RSA and 30274 ejector I have been trouble free with this same Gen4 G17 and it is right around the 50K mark now.
Since March I have been seeing 40 new Gen4 G17's (W series mostly) pistols per week and I have personally signed off on around 600 or so. Another training group has also seen that many, so since March we have seen 1200 Gen4 G17's and all getting right at 300 rounds through them prior to being put into service. I have tracked everything and in short I have zero problems in picking up a new Gen4 G17.
"Surf", your professional feedback is always very much appreciated. No one has this much live fire information on a manufactures platform. Thank you for your contributions to M4C.
I have two Glocks, a Gen 3 & 4 and both work fine. To be honest it's 1911s & AR-15s that out of the box you have to start buying parts/machining to get them to work to the tune of hundreds if not thousands of $$$ to just make them work. An out of the box 1911 is a crap shoot and a gun I would NOT recommend to someone because of all its issues and AR-15s are close behind. So I'd say Glocks all in all are excellent.
I'm willing to bet you've never owned a Colt...
Free Agent
07-20-14, 16:54
I'm willing to bet you've never owned a Colt...
Or a BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Sionics, etc...
FollowThru
07-20-14, 17:27
I'm willing to bet you've never owned a Colt...
Or a BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Sionics, etc...
Been a shooter/DIY gunsmith since the 1970s. First 1911 I bought and still have back in the mid-1980s is a Colt Gold Cup out-of-the-box through brass into my face very violently every 2-3 shots. Also have a Springfield Armory 1911 that once in while throws a case in the face but not more than any other semi-auto handgun.
Being one that learns from others mistakes when I got my first AR-15 I build it myself & used high-end parts; the heart of the gun having a Daniel Defense barrel and BCG.
You have to admit if the parts stores didn't sell 1911 & AR-15 parts they would be out of business. And of course look at their track records.
Haven't personally done any comparisons, but I've heard that the Gen 4 Glock 17/19's are a bit more accurate than the Gen 3's.
And a touch softer recoil impulse on the gen4s imo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I get the feeling this problem is way overblown. I don't doubt it exists, just that if you believe the internet, every single post 2010 glock anywhere is pinging people in the dome every couple of rounds. I've personally not seen anyone in my area have chronic btf problems. I've owned 4 post 2010 glocks, a gen 4 23, 22, 17 and a gen 3 19, and the only one that even remotely gave me trouble was the 19. It had one fte, but that was in the hands of a petite inexperienced female shooter. I'll chalk that up to limp wristing. I've shot about 1,500 rounds through it and I've had 2 btf out of that. I'm not happy about it, but that's not that big of a deal to me. An interesting side note, my former college pistol team has 4 team gen 3 glock 34's all post 2010 manufacture that have each seen well in excess of 50,000 rounds, with one malfunction out of all of that at the hands of another inexperienced petite female. All have consistent ejection patterns.
What is a big deal to me is the finish on my 19 which has basically rubbed off on huge sections of the slide in the 1 year I've had it. It has this smooth matte gray finish as where the gen 4's have a darker spackle looking finish that holds up much better. None of my gen 4 glocks have so much as a scratch and the 19 has patches of bare stainless in a number of places. More of a cosmetic thing, but certainly not what my experience has been with my other glocks. This isn't going to convince me to bail on glock as a whole. I still think they are great guns.
Phillygunguy
07-20-14, 20:23
deleted
brickboy240
07-21-14, 11:54
I had very bad BTF issues with a 3rd gen G19 but the Gen 4 ejector and Apex's extractor totally cured the problems. I now have almost 3k rounds through this G19 and BTF has not even come close to rearing its ugly head again. I am pretty much convinced it is now "fixed" and will carry the pistol.
My BTF problems did not show up until about 800rds or so. I had bought a gen 3 G19 to try to avoid the BTF that was going on with the then new gen 4 guns.
My cousin bought a new gen 4 G17 and we ran about 300rds through it 4th of July and it showed no signs of BTF at all. In fact...I was shocked at how well the Gen 4 G17 shot and am considering picking one up.
-brickboy240
Free Agent
07-21-14, 12:33
I had very bad BTF issues with a 3rd gen G19 but the Gen 4 ejector and Apex's extractor totally cured the problems. I now have almost 3k rounds through this G19 and BTF has not even come close to rearing its ugly head again. I am pretty much convinced it is now "fixed" and will carry the pistol.
My BTF problems did not show up until about 800rds or so. I had bought a gen 3 G19 to try to avoid the BTF that was going on with the then new gen 4 guns.
My cousin bought a new gen 4 G17 and we ran about 300rds through it 4th of July and it showed no signs of BTF at all. In fact...I was shocked at how well the Gen 4 G17 shot and am considering picking one up.
-brickboy240
My gen4 G17 didn't start having BTF until after it had around 1100 rounds threw it. I had the same luck as you with my gen3 G19 with the apex and gen4 parts. My G17 seems to be a lost cause. The apex extractor didn't work at all.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-21-14, 12:46
I had very bad BTF issues with a 3rd gen G19 but the Gen 4 ejector and Apex's extractor totally cured the problems. I now have almost 3k rounds through this G19 and BTF has not even come close to rearing its ugly head again. I am pretty much convinced it is now "fixed" and will carry the pistol.
My BTF problems did not show up until about 800rds or so. I had bought a gen 3 G19 to try to avoid the BTF that was going on with the then new gen 4 guns.
My cousin bought a new gen 4 G17 and we ran about 300rds through it 4th of July and it showed no signs of BTF at all. In fact...I was shocked at how well the Gen 4 G17 shot and am considering picking one up.
-brickboy240
You were bitten by the bug before, so you should know a first shooting of a Glock is no determination of its reliability. 3,000 rounds is what you need, not 300.
ABANDON ALL HOPE! ;)
brickboy240
07-21-14, 13:40
While that might have a grain of truth..it seems we don't hear tons about BTF issues with 9mm Glocks these days as we did a year or so ago.
Maybe Glock quietly fixed the problems....
Phillygunguy
07-21-14, 14:21
While that might have a grain of truth..it seems we don't hear tons about BTF issues with 9mm Glocks these days as we did a year or so ago.
Maybe Glock quietly fixed the problems....
Uh NO. I bought a gen 4 Glock 19 manufacture date Jan 2014 constant BTF and my eye Installed An apex FRE gen 4 worked fine for 50 rounds, then btf . I called Apex and had swapped the gen 4 extractor for a gen 3. Since then I had over 1600 rds without btf.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-21-14, 15:04
While that might have a grain of truth..it seems we don't hear tons about BTF issues with 9mm Glocks these days as we did a year or so ago.
Maybe Glock quietly fixed the problems....
Nope. :( What my fellow Pennsylvanian said. Saw a Gen 4 purchased a 2-3 months ago, had BTF by round 1000.
Doc Safari
07-21-14, 15:08
You were bitten by the bug before, so you should know a first shooting of a Glock is no determination of its reliability. 3,000 rounds is what you need, not 300.
ABANDON ALL HOPE! ;)
This was the last straw with me. You can't shoot the gun to the tune of a few hundred rounds and assume it's GTG. It's like you can't ever be sure that a Glock won't eventually let you down.
Phillygunguy
07-21-14, 15:13
FWIW my glock 19 gen 4 has been good with over 1600 on the Apex extractor. The gun has over 2700 rds without any other malfunctions
Phillygunguy
07-21-14, 15:15
I still plan on making it my edc during the summer and carry my vp 9 in the cooler weather
We are still waiting for any our Gen3 G17s to act up...
They range from one to five years in age, some have decent round count o them.
Only maintenance has been to swap out recoil springs every 3,500 rounds and three slides were sent back to Glock to be refinished.
Only non-OEM parts are Ameriglo steel sights.
Pretty boring, but no complaints here.
I have north of ~30K now through my Gen4 G17 which is still running fine on the Apex FRE and 30274 ejector for most of those rounds. It did do the BTF with the old ejector and stock extractor after a lowish number of rounds when it was new. It was an early model Gen 4.
I picked up a G19 Gen4 that mainly gets carried and it got the same treatment as the 17 and has been rock solid, but I didn't even give it a chance to fail, the extractor was replaced straight away and it came with the new ejector.
All mine get the same treatment: 3.5ish connector, APEX FRE, sights and FBI mag release, so I'm into a new Glock for ~$200-$250 in parts from the word go, but granted, most of that is new sights which would go on virtually any new pistol anyway. That being said mine have been boringly reliable afterwards to the point I don't ever worry about them any longer. The Gen4s seem to be accurate as well, almost on par with my CZ, which is no slouch @ 25 yds.
Howdy,
Again, Imho:
It's sad to say, but I don't expect majority of the firearms on the market to be 100% grab and go. I don't care if its metal or plastic, it is what it is. Most have fixes or better material replacements. Once setup, most everything will run smooth with proper maintenance.
;)
I have found just the opposite to be true.
I have been shooting for 45 years ( I'm 50yo.... do the math ) and 10 years ago I would have posted my background but after dealing with Keyboard Kommandos who thought that their Super Top Secret Mall Ninja Training and combat experience from playing "Call of Dooty" on their Mom's wii was more "valuable" than real life experiences I quit posting about it.
Anywhooooo,
Back in 1993 I bought a Glock 20 10mm and was invited to shoot an IDPA style match at an indoor range in Plano, TX so I brought along my G20 and a friend brought his Dallas PD issued G17 to use during the match.
For some unknown reason they refused to allow us to use our Glocks because they claimed they were unsafe, well documented to blow up after a couple a mags and some were known to blow up the very first time they were fired.
This was standard gunshop/gunshow BS that went around about Glocks in the early days.
Twenty years later the reappear. What up with that? We called it "Glock Bashing".
Twenty years later we both still have our Glocks ( friend bought his from DPD after it was replaced with a newer G17 ) and after firing +7,500rds through my G20 it has never hiccuped much less exploded. Friend's G17 has had over 25,000 rounds fired though it without a hiccup.
In over 20 years of owning and shooting Glocks I've never seen one hiccup in any form, fashion and/or manner that wasn't either ammo or operator related.
Actually I've only see one well known name brand semi-auto pistol that needed work new out of the box. It was a Browning made Walther ( DBM IIRC ). Functioned great but you couldn't hit the boardside of a barn with it even if you were inside the barm at the time.
Paul
Howdy,
I have found just the opposite to be true.
I have been shooting for 45 years ( I'm 50yo.... do the math ) and 10 years ago I would have posted my background but after dealing with Keyboard Kommandos who thought that their Super Top Secret Mall Ninja Training and combat experience from playing "Call of Dooty" on their Mom's wii was more "valuable" than real life experiences I quit posting about it.
Anywhooooo,
Back in 1993 I bought a Glock 20 10mm and was invited to shoot an IDPA style match at an indoor range in Plano, TX so I brought along my G20 and a friend brought his Dallas PD issued G17 to use during the match.
For some unknown reason they refused to allow us to use our Glocks because they claimed they were unsafe, well documented to blow up after a couple a mags and some were known to blow up the very first time they were fired.
This was standard gunshop/gunshow BS that went around about Glocks in the early days.
Twenty years later the reappear. What up with that? We called it "Glock Bashing".
Twenty years later we both still have our Glocks ( friend bought his from DPD after it was replaced with a newer G17 ) and after firing +7,500rds through my G20 it has never hiccuped much less exploded. Friend's G17 has had over 25,000 rounds fired though it without a hiccup.
In over 20 years of owning and shooting Glocks I've never seen one hiccup in any form, fashion and/or manner that wasn't either ammo or operator related.
Actually I've only see one well known name brand semi-auto pistol that needed work new out of the box. It was a Browning made Walther ( DBM IIRC ). Functioned great but you couldn't hit the boardside of a barn with it even if you were inside the barm at the time.
Paul
Paul, I'm with on the reliability of a Glock, but times change. Just like Glocks became widely accepted when at one time they weren't. Seems as if the company as a whole has became complacent and has allowed some shortfalls into their bread and butter. Hopefully it will be resolved and their name restored, but until they get their collective asses together and go back to what works, they will continue to fall in respectability as a renowned pistol manufacturer.
"Stengun" Paul,
Thanks for your feedback/input, but I guess I was not clear or you missed my point.
If it runs, shoot it. If it doesn't, get it to, move on-done, keep shooting. Simple.
Also, I am referring to present production/offerings. Well documented that other manufactures. not just Glock, make unannounced changes to fix performance issues. It is hard to name a firearms manuf. that hasn't made revisions to their current lineup, if there is a list - the list will be short or -----.
imho: the Glock BTF or whatever has been blown out of proportion. It is or was there, and I say "out of proportion" now because there was/is a fix. Yes, it takes some trial with a few OE parts & for some an upgrade to APEX Tactical's FRE, but we do have a solution & "for me" its a better setup than what OE offered - Again My Opinion. I am however glad we have forums such as M4C so we can bounce off experiences and share a solution that works. For me, Gen3 or Gen4 Glocks get APEX Tactical FRE setups. Besides that, the new Gen4 small frame 9mm Glocks have been improvements in re: ergo & barrel lock up [production dependent in my experience].
DreadPirateMoyer
07-23-14, 00:35
If you haven't seen a Glock malfunction outside of user error or ammo problems in 20 years, you haven't seen many Glocks. It's not Glock bashing. It's just the reality of any brand or platform.
And as for us having a fix to the well-documented BTF problem that still exists to this day, even Apex's parts don't always do the job. I had a G17 that needed the slide fit to a new extractor as well as the port lowered to get it to function (done by Apex as well; can't sing Randy Lee's praises enough).
The problem -- whatever is causing it -- definitely does not have a definitive cure in some guns. Glock has gotten sloppy.
How long is this thread going to last?
It's just the same thing page after page of someone saying they have no problem then the same people jumping in saying Glocks don't even work.
In the real world they are great guns but on the internet they are junk.
Yes I understand that there have been problems but you get that with anything.
Phillygunguy
07-23-14, 05:53
If you haven't seen a Glock malfunction outside of user error or ammo problems in 20 years, you haven't seen many Glocks. It's not Glock bashing. It's just the reality of any brand or platform.
And as for us having a fix to the well-documented BTF problem that still exists to this day, even Apex's parts don't always do the job. I had a G17 that needed the slide fit to a new extractor as well as the port lowered to get it to function (done by Apex as well; can't sing Randy Lee's praises enough).
The problem -- whatever is causing it -- definitely does not have a definitive cure in some guns. Glock has gotten sloppy.
Yeah the PSP had issues with the Glock 21 and decided to go to Sig.
Phillygunguy
07-23-14, 05:55
Howdy,
I have found just the opposite to be true.
I have been shooting for 45 years ( I'm 50yo.... do the math ) and 10 years ago I would have posted my background but after dealing with Keyboard Kommandos who thought that their Super Top Secret Mall Ninja Training and combat experience from playing "Call of Dooty" on their Mom's wii was more "valuable" than real life experiences I quit posting about it.
Anywhooooo,
Back in 1993 I bought a Glock 20 10mm and was invited to shoot an IDPA style match at an indoor range in Plano, TX so I brought along my G20 and a friend brought his Dallas PD issued G17 to use during the match.
For some unknown reason they refused to allow us to use our Glocks because they claimed they were unsafe, well documented to blow up after a couple a mags and some were known to blow up the very first time they were fired.
This was standard gunshop/gunshow BS that went around about Glocks in the early days.
Twenty years later the reappear. What up with that? We called it "Glock Bashing".
Twenty years later we both still have our Glocks ( friend bought his from DPD after it was replaced with a newer G17 ) and after firing +7,500rds through my G20 it has never hiccuped much less exploded. Friend's G17 has had over 25,000 rounds fired though it without a hiccup.
In over 20 years of owning and shooting Glocks I've never seen one hiccup in any form, fashion and/or manner that wasn't either ammo or operator related.
Actually I've only see one well known name brand semi-auto pistol that needed work new out of the box. It was a Browning made Walther ( DBM IIRC ). Functioned great but you couldn't hit the boardside of a barn with it even if you were inside the barm at the time.
Paul
Some people aren't Glock bashing, they have real problems. If they were bashing they wouldn't be spending money and time trying to fix it
DreadPirateMoyer
07-23-14, 07:46
How long is this thread going to last?
It's just the same thing page after page of someone saying they have no problem then the same people jumping in saying Glocks don't even work.
In the real world they are great guns but on the internet they are junk.
Yes I understand that there have been problems but you get that with anything.
The thread's going to last as long as people keep wrongly asserting that Glocks don't have issues outside of the internet, like this is some made-up or overblown conspiracy to destroy their favorite brand. If this were any other brand, the company would have been thrown long under the bus by now (can you imagine if it were HK?), but because it's Glock, people are in complete denial for some reason.
And as for getting problems with any gun/brand, yes, but not like this. This is a consistent and documented problem that hasn't been fixed (just like the 9mm M&P accuracy problems that persisted for years). There's a difference between random problems that happen due to humans being humans and machines being machines, and a consistent problem that continues to crop up for years in a specific brand. Every company suffers from the former. Glock suffers from the latter. Big difference.
ETA: or it'll last until a mod kills it. Looking likely now, I think.
The thread's going to last as long as people keep wrongly asserting that Glocks don't have issues outside of the internet, like this is some made-up or overblown conspiracy to destroy their favorite brand. If this were any other brand, the company would have been thrown long under the bus by now (can you imagine if it were HK?), but because it's Glock, people are in complete denial for some reason.
And as for getting problems with any gun/brand, yes, but not like this. This is a consistent and documented problem that hasn't been fixed (just like the 9mm M&P accuracy problems that persisted for years). There's a difference between random problems that happen due to humans being humans and machines being machines, and a consistent problem that continues to crop up for years in a specific brand. Every company suffers from the former. Glock suffers from the latter. Big difference.
ETA: or it'll last until a mod kills it. Looking likely now, I think.
I'm just a sample of one, but every 14 weeks for the last decade I've seen a new batch of shooters 75% of which are carrying Glocks. That is about 45 different Glocks every 14 weeks. 220 a year, 2,200 over the decade.
A couple years ago - look at my join date - I got onto this forum, Glock Talk, AR15.com and Lightfighter.
Up to that point, silly me, I didn't know that Glocks had a BTF problem. I'd been through the problems with lights, and 20 years ago (it seems) went through upgrade madness. But they had always ejected. And to my direct knowledge they still do.
Perhaps it is because we shoot heavier duty equivalent loads, I don't know, but when one of my shooters starts bouncing rounds off their hat, or over their shoulder, I've found it to be a shooter induced problem, usually easily remediated.
Somehow I think perhaps I've written this before, but here goes.
Sometimes when a timid shooter is having problems which indicate to me they are worried about controlling the pistol, I end up loading a dummy into a mag, then one live round, chambering the live round and then firing their pistol with only my thumb around the backstrap and my trigger finger providing the only grip/support. I'll be danged, the gun functions and cycles the dummy round into the chamber (don't use 2 live rounds). Now, I don't know how it happens, I don't know exactly what kind of push, retreat, twist, etc. the shooter uses, but very often they will malfunction the same weapon.
I don't think it is the weapon's fault in those cases. At some point the human interface just might have some impact on functionality.
If a 10th percentile shooter (ooooh that's going to piss some people off) has issues with the weapon - is it the weapon's fault? I don't know what is reasonable in this instance, total functionality, regardless?
The problem is some experienced shooters have experienced this. Not saying everyone has a perfect grip 100% of the time, but when it happens frequently to some of these guys, you really have to wonder.
I do believe ammo quality plays a role in this. Almost never happens when I use Magtech. S&B standard 124gr? Frequent issues, BTF, FTE, etc.
In fact, I never experienced any problems until one particular case of ammo.
I have noticed weird ejection when a female shoots my guns. Brass over their left shoulder. 7 o'clock ejection?
TacticalSledgehammer
07-23-14, 14:03
I bought a Gen 4 G35 and had thought about getting Stihl to sponsor me if I ever run competitions. Because I could see this coming in handy. http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv164/Josh216_photos/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-07-23-14-48-482_zps14bc7c5e.jpg (http://s680.photobucket.com/user/Josh216_photos/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-07-23-14-48-482_zps14bc7c5e.jpg.html)
Doc Safari
07-23-14, 14:36
I love how people make excuses for BTF by saying it's the shooter or the ammo. Any gun that ejects brass into the shooter's face is poorly designed and that's all there is to it. I don't care how much you train or how good a shooter you are, brass to the face will cause you to flinch, lose your concentration, and spoil your aim. This could make you dead in a real defense scenario, and that is unacceptable.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-23-14, 14:42
I'm just a sample of one, but every 14 weeks for the last decade I've seen a new batch of shooters 75% of which are carrying Glocks. That is about 45 different Glocks every 14 weeks. 220 a year, 2,200 over the decade.
A couple years ago - look at my join date - I got onto this forum, Glock Talk, AR15.com and Lightfighter.
Up to that point, silly me, I didn't know that Glocks had a BTF problem. I'd been through the problems with lights, and 20 years ago (it seems) went through upgrade madness. But they had always ejected. And to my direct knowledge they still do.
Perhaps it is because we shoot heavier duty equivalent loads, I don't know, but when one of my shooters starts bouncing rounds off their hat, or over their shoulder, I've found it to be a shooter induced problem, usually easily remediated.
Somehow I think perhaps I've written this before, but here goes.
Sometimes when a timid shooter is having problems which indicate to me they are worried about controlling the pistol, I end up loading a dummy into a mag, then one live round, chambering the live round and then firing their pistol with only my thumb around the backstrap and my trigger finger providing the only grip/support. I'll be danged, the gun functions and cycles the dummy round into the chamber (don't use 2 live rounds). Now, I don't know how it happens, I don't know exactly what kind of push, retreat, twist, etc. the shooter uses, but very often they will malfunction the same weapon.
I don't think it is the weapon's fault in those cases. At some point the human interface just might have some impact on functionality.
If a 10th percentile shooter (ooooh that's going to piss some people off) has issues with the weapon - is it the weapon's fault? I don't know what is reasonable in this instance, total functionality, regardless?
This is the kind of drivel that has been discredited multiple times in the Glock problem threads (you've been here for so long that I'd imagine you've read all 100+ pages of the main one, correct?). It's not shooter induced. When an otherwise-functional pistol that was running perfectly for 3,000 rounds starts flinging 5 brass cartridges into your eyes per magazine, it's not the shooter.
I had 5 Gen 3 Glocks in a row that exhibited BTF by 3,000 rounds -- all with 30274 ejectors and stock extractors. I've shot over 30,000 rounds of pistol ammo in the last 2 years and have attended multiple classes; Glocks are the only ones doing this in that time. Other established shooters have also seen BTF and other problems with recent-production Glocks, including Grant himself, Ken Hackathorn, and Randy Lee from Apex Tactical (who personally modified and verified one of my problematic G17s and created a whole new product after extensive testing to fix this problem that he himself saw). Writing it off as limp-wristing or shooter-induced is the denialism of the last 4 years that has been proven to be nothing but fanboy-level dismissal, yet here we are dealing with the same old canards over and over.
It's Glocks. It's not the shooters. Accept it.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-23-14, 14:45
A mod needs to kill this thread. It's just a rehash of the last 4 years of information that already exists on this and other forums. If people choose to read all this information and experience and ignore it, that's their choice. No reason to keep going through the motions.
Seconded.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Howdy DreadPirateMoyer,
If you haven't seen a Glock malfunction outside of user error or ammo problems in 20 years, you haven't seen many Glocks. It's not Glock bashing. It's just the reality of any brand or platform.
And as for us having a fix to the well-documented BTF problem that still exists to this day, even Apex's parts don't always do the job. I had a G17 that needed the slide fit to a new extractor as well as the port lowered to get it to function (done by Apex as well; can't sing Randy Lee's praises enough).
The problem -- whatever is causing it -- definitely does not have a definitive cure in some guns. Glock has gotten sloppy.
Ive not seen many Glocks?
Gee, I don't know where you come up with that idea because I've shot in a couple of GSSF matches and the last one had 65 shooters with +100 Glocks and you guessed it......not a single Glock hiccup.
Went it a Regional IDPA match where there where over 100 Glocks and once again, no hiccups. I was at a GSSF match at the Dallas Pistol Club with over 250 Glock shooters and never heard of a GLOCK hiccup or BTF issue.
I attend several IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, informal competitions in my area, Central Arkansas, and know numerous Glock shooters and NONE of them have ever had any of the problems of BTF even with Gen3 and Gen4 guns.
I've shot several different Gen4 G17s with different brands of ammo including reloads and never had BTF not has their owners. These are people the shoot competition and usually fire about 500-1,000 rounds per month without any of the BTF issues with a box stock gun.
Some of these G17s are at the +10,000 round mark and some are at the +20,000 round mark and a couple at the +30,000 round mark without any issues except standard cleaning and replacing the RSA every 3-4,000 rounds.
Back a couple of years ago a member on Glock Talk made a video showing the BFT issue.
Yep, he got BTF. But he had to tilt his G17 and SHO limp-wristed it to get BTF. It was so obvious what was happening and I pointed it out to him and post that at x:xx on the video you changed your grip, tilted the Glock, used a limp-wrist hold and as a result got BTF because this is the result that you wanted.
Every semi-auto pistol my ex-BIL has ever owned was a "Jam-O-Matic". Problem pistols? Nope, problem shooter. I bought 2 of the "Jam-O-Matic"s from him and even though they would jam/hiccup 20Xs in 100 rounds for him both have been flawless since I bought them. One was a Norinco 1911A1 that I have senn fired +15,000 rounds through it and the only hiccups it has ever had was once with a cheapo GI mag and twice with a crappy reload ( strictly my fault ). The other gun was a Gen2 G19 that has fired +25,000 rounds without a hiccup except for a couple, as in 2 dud rounds. My daughter's BF now has the gun and as far as I know it's still runs great.
I personally know +100 Glock shooters ( not just owners but active shooters ) most own multiple Glocks and NONE have any of the problems that have circulated on the 'Net.
Sorry, but I'll pass on the "Glock Bashing Kool-Aide".
Paul
P.S. A friend from HS ( actually in the same class as my sister '79 ) is the Sheriff in the county I live in and the Dept. is equipped with Gen3 and Gen4 Glocks .40S&W and they've never had a BTF issue in the entire Dept.
What up with that?
It's hard to get some folks to understand something until it happens to them. Sometimes even when it's happening, they'll deny it... I've been a Glock guy since 2001, and up until I started getting pelted with brass on my noggin and forehead, piss poor groups due to trigger "shock", I'd never have believed it. As a matter of fact, I was on the same side of the fence that the deniers are on. That changed upon shooting a new gen3 19 and my new gen4 17..
DreadPirateMoyer
07-23-14, 15:30
P.S. A friend from HS ( actually in the same class as my sister '79 ) is the Sheriff in the county I live in and the Dept. is equipped with Gen3 and Gen4 Glocks .40S&W and they've never had a BTF issue in the entire Dept.
What up with that?
The fact that you even brought .40 caliber Glocks into this shows you aren't on the same page as the rest of us here. The problem has been exclusively with 9mm Glocks since roughly 2010. The same could be said for you discounting this problem as shooter-induced when it's been verified by Grant, Hackathorn, Randy Lee, and numerous other established shooters.
The only kool-aid in this thread is from Glock owners unable to accept that the problem exists. You are one of them. And yes, if you haven't ever seen a Glock malfunction once in 20 years, you haven't seen many Glocks. All gun brands malfunction on occasion, even HK.
It's hard to get some folks to understand something until it happens to them. Sometimes even when it's happening, they'll deny it... I've been a Glock guy since 2001, and up until I started getting pelted with brass on my noggin and forehead, piss poor groups due to trigger "shock", I'd never have believed it. As a matter of fact, I was on the same side of the fence that the deniers are on. That changed upon shooting a new gen3 19 and my new gen4 17..
Crazy, isn't it? I've never seen such widespread denial in a user base. It's mindblowing. We're not even claiming it's all Glocks (though I'd bet a lot of 'em would do it if people took them to 3,000 rounds, which most don't). Even the idea that some Glocks consistently exhibit this problem is untenable, apparently.
This is the kind of drivel that has been discredited multiple times in the Glock problem threads (you've been here for so long that I'd imagine you've read all 100+ pages of the main one, correct?). It's not shooter induced. When an otherwise-functional pistol that was running perfectly for 3,000 rounds starts flinging 5 brass cartridges into your eyes per magazine, it's not the shooter.
I had 5 Gen 3 Glocks in a row that exhibited BTF by 3,000 rounds -- all with 30274 ejectors and stock extractors. I've shot over 30,000 rounds of pistol ammo in the last 2 years and have attended multiple classes; Glocks are the only ones doing this in that time. Other established shooters have also seen BTF and other problems with recent-production Glocks, including Grant himself, Ken Hackathorn, and Randy Lee from Apex Tactical (who personally modified and verified one of my problematic G17s and created a whole new product after extensive testing to fix this problem that he himself saw). Writing it off as limp-wristing or shooter-induced is the denialism of the last 4 years that has been proven to be nothing but fanboy-level dismissal, yet here we are dealing with the same old canards over and over.
It's Glocks. It's not the shooters. Accept it.
How bout this - you pm me an address and we'll get together, I'll do whatever you want to ensure you get your pistols back - send them to me and let me experience the goodness - because all I was saying is I've never seen it and I do spend some time on the range.
As I mentioned we shoot heavy, 147gr, duty equivalent loads, perhaps that is the reason we don't have widespread issues.
As far as fanboy, your the one that is getting shrill.
DreadPirateMoyer
07-23-14, 16:52
How bout this - you pm me an address and we'll get together, I'll do whatever you want to ensure you get your pistols back - send them to me and let me experience the goodness - because all I was saying is I've never seen it and I do spend some time on the range.
As I mentioned we shoot heavy, 147gr, duty equivalent loads, perhaps that is the reason we don't have widespread issues.
As far as fanboy, your the one that is getting shrill.
How about this: no. Your denial of the problem isn't my problem. There are mountains of evidence (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?92133-Glock-Extractor-Issues-Gen-4-Gen-3) of this issue and well-established shooters (including the owner of this forum) who have experienced it and verified it. If you choose to reject all of this because you've seen limited samples that haven't shown the problem (and there are Glocks that don't; it's a dice roll if you get one), that's your prerogative and your potential future issue.
As for my stake in this, it's just trying to ward others away from the travesty that is post-2010 Glock, as I'm with Doc Glockster: I solved my Glock problems by not owning them anymore, and every person that can be sold on an HK, Beretta, CZ, or Walther is a victory for gun owners as a whole.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?155231-GLOCK-reliability&p=1952187#post1952187
I can't send you the problem guns (including the one that was verified as problematic and required a fitted slide and lowered ejection port by Randy Lee -- I guess it's just a shooter problem, though, right?), but I wouldn't even if I had the chance. You've already made up your mind, obviously. Enjoy your purchases. Hopefully people who read this thread have more open minds and buy better guns.
Howdy,
Go to Glock Talk and do a simple search and you will clearly see the "Glock Bashers" "claim" the "BTF" issue effects ALL of the small framed Glocks, not just the 9mm.
I'm stating for the record that BTF is pure Internet Bullshitte that doesn't really exist. Period.
I'm from Arkansas and Arkansas shares a border with Missouri and Missouri is the "Show Me" State so you're gonna have to show me.
If you have stated "BTF is real" find an experienced Glock shooter ( no, if you are have a BTF issue, you are NOT an experienced Glock shooter no matter what you think or claim ) and post a video of them shooting your Glock and getting BTF while they use a proper grip, stance and name brand ammo. ( Win white box, Rem, or Fed. 165gr FMJ will be acceptable. )
No video, never happened.
Pretty simple.
Someone posted about being a Glock shooter since 2001. I've been shooting Glocks since 1987 but since I'm not a 9mm fan I never bought one until they came out with the G20 and G21. I still have the G20 ( bought it in the Spring of '93 ) and the G21 was used in a SD incident and never was returned by the No. Little Rock PD. NLRPD "claimed" it was either lost or stolen from the evidence locker and I was given a voucher for the G21 stating that if it was ever found I could file a petition for its return. That was in '98 and I'm still waiting.
Paul
P.S. I'm willing to bet that the "BTF crowd" will all claim that either they no longer own the Glock are had it repaired and now it no longer "BTF".
Doc Safari
07-23-14, 17:57
I'm stating for the record that BTF is pure Internet Bullshitte that doesn't really exist. Period.
I've been a Glock owner since 1992, owning several generations of Glock 17, 19, 26, and 22. True, I've never seen BTF in either of my 40's, but the nines seem to be hit or miss as to whether they sling brass right back at you. It is NOT internet BS.
My beef is that the guns seem to develop the problem even when you thought you had put enough rounds through one to determine it's GTG.
Let's see....all these people are complaining about BTF in Glocks but I never seem to read about any other pistol having the problem.
Admittedly I don't surf many forums, but there are enough handgun owners participating on this board that surely other pistols would be exhibiting the same problem if it were not specific to Glocks.
But DON'T tell me it's bullshit when I've owned some Glocks that did it and others that didn't.
Howdy Doc,
Like I posted earlier, I've dealt with "Glock Bashers" for almost 30 years and it's always one thing after another. For years it was the "KaBoom" issue. This started in the late 80's and lasted until the mid 2000s.
Then it was "If you drop your Glock it will fire all by itself." which we Glockers know is untrue and actually impossible due to the Glock design.
Next up was the "You can NOT shoot lead bullets in a Glock because they will explode on the second shot." crap. The sad/funny thing is there are people floating around the gun forums that still believe this BS.
With the "New" Gen4 came "BTF" issue.
Sure, Glock probably made a few of the first production run of Gen4s with issues but that's part of manufactoring. It's called DPMU. Defective Per Million Units. It's a manufactoring term that used by everyone.
If your acceptable DPMU is say 100, with a new product or a redesign product it would triple or quadruple, maybe even more.
No matter how tight or strict your QC/QA standards are a bad apple will always slip through the crack.
Paul
I can't send you the problem guns (including the one that was verified as problematic and required a fitted slide and lowered ejection port by Randy Lee -- I guess it's just a shooter problem, though, right?), but I wouldn't even if I had the chance. You've already made up your mind, obviously. Enjoy your purchases. Hopefully people who read this thread have more open minds and buy better guns.
You know Timmy, you assume a lot - did I post that have a bunch of Glocks or that I even shoot them? So whats this about purchases?
I have an open mind all I said was I hadn't seen the issue and I have a fairly large observed sampling.
I'm open to suggestions, but absent seeing the problem, you will excuse me if your breathless exhortations - 'including the one that was verified as problematic and required a fitted slide and lowered ejection port by Randy Lee -- I guess it's just a shooter problem, though, right?' aren't compelling to me.
If I do observe this in the future, trust me, I will not be shy about acknowledging the error of my observations.
I wish I could say thanks for your courteous responses, but I guess that would be fibbing, huh?
SeriousStudent
07-23-14, 20:01
Feel free to discuss the pistols. If you want to discuss each other, either take it to PM or drop it entirely.
This is the only warning you are going to see.
Point taken, thanks. I think we are done.
I'd be curious to know the actual percent of Glocks that exhibit this BTF.
Obviously we could never figure it out but you would think it was 95%.
I wonder what the ratio of Glock to brand X handgun sold in the US is? Are Glock handguns 50% of the handgun sales? Every hand gun manufacture has some kind of issues. Do we just hear more about the Glock issues because two or three time as much Glocks are being sold and we are seeing the law or averages playing out?
There is NO doubt that Glocks have issues but I think it is more pronounced due to the amount of Glocks out and about. ...yes, shame on Glock for not fixing the issue(s). Oh, one more thing. When you are at the top you will always have a bullseye on your back!!!
Howdy,
Go to Glock Talk and do a simple search and you will clearly see the "Glock Bashers" "claim" the "BTF" issue effects ALL of the small framed Glocks, not just the 9mm.
I'm stating for the record that BTF is pure Internet Bullshitte that doesn't really exist. Period.
I'm from Arkansas and Arkansas shares a border with Missouri and Missouri is the "Show Me" State so you're gonna have to show me.
If you have stated "BTF is real" find an experienced Glock shooter ( no, if you are have a BTF issue, you are NOT an experienced Glock shooter no matter what you think or claim ) and post a video of them shooting your Glock and getting BTF while they use a proper grip, stance and name brand ammo. ( Win white box, Rem, or Fed. 165gr FMJ will be acceptable. )
No video, never happened.
Pretty simple.
Someone posted about being a Glock shooter since 2001. I've been shooting Glocks since 1987 but since I'm not a 9mm fan I never bought one until they came out with the G20 and G21. I still have the G20 ( bought it in the Spring of '93 ) and the G21 was used in a SD incident and never was returned by the No. Little Rock PD. NLRPD "claimed" it was either lost or stolen from the evidence locker and I was given a voucher for the G21 stating that if it was ever found I could file a petition for its return. That was in '98 and I'm still waiting.
Paul
P.S. I'm willing to bet that the "BTF crowd" will all claim that either they no longer own the Glock are had it repaired and now it no longer "BTF".
Do you realize that Glock made running production changes to address this FTE/BTF "pure internet BS"? Namely the 30274 ejector.
Also, comparing .40 to 9mm will solve nothing since the 9mm Glocks, to my knowledge are the ones that experience this issue.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.