View Full Version : Izhmash Banned From Importation
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/20140716.aspx
Read it and weep.
PA PATRIOT
07-16-14, 18:29
No more Saiga's, grab them now before the price jumps insanely.
Meh...Arsenals are better anyway.
Don't Arsenals start out as Saigas?
Don't Arsenals start out as Saigas?
Only the SGL models.
Don't Arsenals start out as Saigas?
No, Arsenals are from Bulgaria. However, Arsenal USA (based in Nevada) was bringing in Saigas and doing great conversions with them before releasing them to the market. Those are referred to as, 'Arsenal converted Saigas'
Everyone should be advised that Saiga prices should go through the roof. Probably AK's across the board will be pushed up in price to compensate. Likely soon we'll be seeing shitbox Yugo PAPs going for golden prices.
I wonder about ammo prices, in particular the 7.63x39.
...and I wonder about ammo prices on any cartridge made in Russia. I don't think Tula, Wolf, etc fall under this, but I don't know for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen. Which will affect ALL ammo (regardless of mfg location) prices in the end due to a simple drop in the supply.
Kalash9305
07-16-14, 23:57
This is a temporary ban on Russian commerce not a public safety ban.
They could never justify such an action on a company with so many different products when similar if not identical rifles and products from other countries continue to be imported.
It would be reversed in court as restraint of trade in short order.
This is a sanction, done to coerce behavior.
Once the behavior improves it will be lifted by exec order or if need be by court injunction.
Hell Izhmash would probably be the lead plaintiff.
Barry would love to keep it around forever I'm sure .. but long term it's no bueno
...and I wonder about ammo prices on any cartridge made in Russia. I don't think Tula, Wolf, etc fall under this, but I don't know for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen. Which will affect ALL ammo (regardless of mfg location) prices in the end due to a simple drop in the supply.
Wolf GOLD is made in Taiwan so not sure that will be effected. The steel case stuff might be made outside of Russia as well.
MorphCross
07-17-14, 02:49
Wolf GOLD is made in Taiwan so not sure that will be effected. The steel case stuff might be made outside of Russia as well.
Wolf steel is made in the Tula Cartridge Plant in Tula District, Russia. Tulammo is also Russian manufacturer. Now, if their stateside entities are simply importing loaded ammunition, or unloaded components would be my question.
All of this is purely academic because neither Tulammo nor Wolf appear to be listed in the State Dept. statement.
Once the behavior improves it will be lifted by exec order or if need be by court injunction.
Hell Izhmash would probably be the lead plaintiff.
Barry would love to keep it around forever I'm sure .. but long term it's no bueno
I don't know what's funnier. That you think Putin will give a damn about this sanction or that Obama won't keep it in place forever. This is a nickel and half a dime in Putin's revenue bucket, he could care less. And Obama will NEVER put himself in a position of lifting a ban on evil assault rifles like Russian AKs.
Putin is laughing at Obama for his puny sanctions. Obama is laughing at Americans because he at least managed to piss off the gun community while pretending to take a hard line with Putin.
And guess what is next guys? Russian made ammo, they already got the 7N6 stuff. You can expect all Russian produced ammo to get "sanctioned." Hope you are stocked.
PatrioticDisorder
07-17-14, 05:15
Does this effect VEPRs as well?
Whether the sanction directly affects VEPRs or not...they're affected as people are buying them up (I bought a 12 myself as I've been eyeing them since the price dropped to $800) and at minimum there will be a temporary price spike. That said, it looks to me like VEPRs do fall under the sanctions since Molot is part of Kalashnikov Concern, but I could be wrong.
Does this effect VEPRs as well?
It looks like it.
I was hoping to pick up another shotgun, but the $800 VEPR shotguns have vanished.
PatrioticDisorder
07-17-14, 07:29
It looks like it.
I was hoping to pick up another shotgun, but the $800 VEPR shotguns have vanished.
That sucks, I have a VEPR 12 and wanted a steady supply of them for spare parts (just in case) and mags. Without a stream of available spare parts I'm tempted to sell, particularly if prices go kooky... And I already sent a form 1 in for it to SBS it, I have no idea if I can even get my money back for that yet...
Does this effect VEPRs as well?
No reason to do that. Vepr is Ukrainian company, not Russian.
In Russia, AK ban you.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
No reason to do that. Vepr is Ukrainian company, not Russian.
Maybe so, but the Molot factory is in Russia. I'm not sure how this will play out.
No reason to do that. Vepr is Ukrainian company, not Russian.
From what I understand Vepr/Molot was acquired by Kalashnikov Concern in 2013. Kalashnikov Concern also lists Vepr rifles and shotguns on their webpage as well. As to whether they'll be able to farm it out to another Ukraniane-based shell to skirt importation bans....?
This is a temporary ban on Russian commerce not a public safety ban.
They could never justify such an action on a company with so many different products when similar if not identical rifles and products from other countries continue to be imported.
It would be reversed in court as restraint of trade in short order.
This is a sanction, done to coerce behavior.
Once the behavior improves it will be lifted by exec order or if need be by court injunction.
Hell Izhmash would probably be the lead plaintiff.
Barry would love to keep it around forever I'm sure .. but long term it's no bueno
Kind of like the similar sanctions on Chinese goods that happened to ban Polytec and Norinco products that has never been lifted.
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-14, 00:37
"We're working on it, under the radar . . . " - Barry
Back in 2009 I sold a bunch of shit that I was going to give to Good Will on Craigslist. I took the $550 I made on that junk and bought an SGL21-61 for $499 when Arsenal/K-VAR were giving them away. Now I can say that I have lived through yet another "good ol' days".
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-14, 00:41
And guess what is next guys? Russian made ammo, they already got the 7N6 stuff. You can expect all Russian produced ammo to get "sanctioned." Hope you are stocked.
Yup . . .
Increasing frequency of mass shootings; Obama blames stockpiling of ammunition . . . (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?153746-Increasing-frequency-of-mass-shootings-Obama-blames-stockpiling-of-ammunition)
“You know, the United States does not have a monopoly on crazy people. It’s not the only country that has psychosis. And yet, we kill each other in these mass shootings at rates that are exponentially higher than any place else,” Obama said, according to BuzzFeed. “Well, what’s the difference? The difference is, is that these guys can stack up a bunch of ammunition in their houses and that’s sort of par for the course.” - Barry
I also see him making an EO play for imported mags (AK, HK, FAL, GLOCK, etc.) after he stops the importation of ammo.
Current sanctions have left a 4% dent in the RU economy since they began. They will only get worse. Even 4% is big thump.
Likely soon we'll be seeing shitbox Yugo PAPs going for golden prices. School us on Yugo Paps.
PatrioticDisorder
07-18-14, 09:31
On the bright side of things, this leaves a GAPING hole in premium 7.62x39 pattern rifles, maybe motivation for KAC to bring the SR-47 into production....
A "gaping" hole?
Hardely!
Arsenals are fantastic.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
On the bright side of things, this leaves a GAPING hole in premium 7.62x39 pattern rifles, maybe motivation for KAC to bring the SR-47 into production....
It's a small hole - but hopefully the pressure from one side means the potential flow is enough. I do want one, so irrationally badly.
A "gaping" hole?
Hardely!
Arsenals are fantastic.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
And let's hope that since Arsenal does business with Izhmash they don't get simply added to the ban list. SLR rifles are already getting cleaned out from every wholesalers as part of the current "AK panic buy." I'm hoping it will only be a matter of Arsenal simply not being able to bring in any more SGL rifles, but they could easily get hammered due to "guilt by association" thinking by the current administration.
In any case, really glad I grabbed my SGL31 when I did, wish I had kept my SGL21.
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-14, 19:01
In any case, really glad I grabbed my SGL31 when I did, wish I had kept my SGL21.
I must admit I do wish I had picked up an SGL31-95 (100 series folder) and more SGL21s when they were $499.
Patriotmrd
07-18-14, 22:27
Wolf GOLD is made in Taiwan so not sure that will be effected. The steel case stuff might be made outside of Russia as well.
Wolf manufactures steel ammunition in Russia and Ukraine. They may have plants in other countries as well. All the 7.62x39mm Wolf I have is manufactured in Ukraine.
MountainRaven
07-19-14, 00:42
A "gaping" hole?
Hardely!
Arsenals are fantastic.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Maybe they can return their pins and rivets to the original positions so folks can use Krebs safeties with them.
Wolf is also a US Company from my understanding. So if you check the Wolf boxes you will find their ammo comes from many different countries depending on the caliber and type. From what I have been told second hand from someone who does business with Wolf they been looking at other sources besides Russia for ammo in case something like this happens. I also noticed the same thing about a lot of their ammo coming from the Ukraine now.
I've have heard before that Wolf does not produce any of their own ammo but rather contracts it out with numerous and various producers under their banner. I cannot confirm any of this but seems to make sense. I was recently told that Wolf's .22lr match ammo is actually produced by Lapua.
Went to my LGS today and they had one Saiga 12(sporterized, not converted) for $940 and two of them chambered in .223 for about $560 I think it was. They had quite a few Serbian and (I think) Bulgarian AK's. They were all out of Arsenals and the guy I talked to said they have been having a hard time getting Saiga 12's for about 3 months.
The guy I talked to said they hadn't had much of a run on the AK's since the sanctions came down but that's not as big a chunk of their business as AR's are.
Their shotgun ammo is from Germany as well. Wolf also rebrands ammo from PPU/Privi Partisan. Most of their Wolf Gold is produced in Serbia with the exception of the newer Wolf Gold .223 Remington which is from Taiwan.
Kind of like the similar sanctions on Chinese goods that happened to ban Polytec and Norinco products that has never been lifted.
^^^^^^This. Once these bans are enacted, there is no political motivation to lift them by either party. We had a Republican President for eight years, but the Chinese ban was never lifted. I am surprised they even allowed the 1994 AWB to sunset, because all politicians love more regs, and control, especially on legally owned firearms. I am afraid AK pattern rifles and ammo prices are going up dramatically. There are other sources, but any reduction in supply will raise prices. "Red Army" ammo is made in the Ukraine so let's hope that still comes in at decent prices.
justin_247
07-21-14, 09:10
Their shotgun ammo is from Germany as well. Wolf also rebrands ammo from PPU/Privi Partisan. Most of their Wolf Gold is produced in Serbia with the exception of the newer Wolf Gold .223 Remington which is from Taiwan.
Wolf Gold hasn't been around for very long, but I have never heard of it being from Serbia. Ever since the beginning, they have stated that it is sourced from Taiwan, which produces hundreds of millions of rounds every year.
I had bought some Wolf Gold in 5.56, 75gr HP a few years back and I believe it was made by Priv Partisan.
Moose-Knuckle
07-22-14, 15:25
This will not only effect the Saiga rifles/shotguns but also the VEPRs as well, I wonder what Mark Krebs is going to do now since they base their custom rifles off of VEPRs?
I might have to finally get around to selling that NIB Rob Arms VEPR-K I have sitting in the back of the safe . . .
This will not only effect the Saiga rifles/shotguns but also the VEPRs as well, I wonder what Mark Krebs is going to do now since they base their custom rifles off of VEPRs?
I might have to finally get around to selling that NIB Rob Arms VEPR-K I have sitting in the back of the safe . . .
They've done some things with Yugo's in the past, so they'll probably do that again.
Guntrician
07-31-14, 22:04
Not to be a "glass half empty" guy but I'd be very surprised to see this lifted even if relations turn around. Every day things are "good" as they currently are seems like borrowed time till another nut job goes off and kicks the bee hive starting the vicious cycle again. We've seen things go to hell overnight just a couple times now. Those a-holes in office are on the edge of their seats waiting for the stars to line up again. All of us that suffered through the retarded AWB days know how precarious our position is at this time. I never thought I'd see a time I couldn't go to the store and get .22 lr ammo. Definitely never thought that POS Norinco under folder AK I bought new for $150 as a disposable truck gun would sell for $2100 like I saw the other night. Damn.
Gee, I guess I should clean my SGL 21 and quit beating it up. It might become a collectors item, lol.
Gee, I guess I should clean my SGL 21 and quit beating it up. It might become a collectors item, lol.
Not only do I believe you are correct, but that this is just the beginning and most all AK's will be shortly.
Not only do I believe you are correct, but that this is just the beginning and most all AK's will be shortly.
I could see imported AKs being banned, but USA made rifles would take their place eventually, unless, Obummer goes full retard (not out of the question I guess). The quality of USA AKs would be the question.
I'm more worried about the ammo bans right now.
I could see imported AKs being banned, but USA made rifles would take their place eventually, unless, Obummer goes full retard (not out of the question I guess). The quality of USA AKs would be the question.
I'm more worried about the ammo bans right now.
I agree
MorphCross
08-05-14, 20:23
I agree
Only if they can get something passed through congress. Sanctions are temporary. Even then other companies like Arsenal will work to import more Bulgarian manufactured AKs into the US. As long as Bulgaria doesn't decide to go to war with US Allies there would be no cause for economic sanctions thus that supply route is clear. As long as none of these manufacturers or their importers don't violate 922r we're good, as long as congress doesn't make a law toughening import restrictions across the board we're good.
Only if they can get something passed through congress. Sanctions are temporary. Even then other companies like Arsenal will work to import more Bulgarian manufactured AKs into the US. As long as Bulgaria doesn't decide to go to war with US Allies there would be no cause for economic sanctions thus that supply route is clear. As long as none of these manufacturers or their importers don't violate 922r we're good, as long as congress doesn't make a law toughening import restrictions across the board we're good.
I hope your right but there are multiple sanctions, EO's, taxes, etc that were so supposed to be temporary that are still in place today. I know by the letter of the law your correct but I guess I just don't trust this regime.
MorphCross
08-05-14, 20:41
I hope your right but there are multiple sanctions, EO's, taxes, etc that were so supposed to be temporary that are still in place today. I know by the letter of the law your correct but I guess I just don't trust this regime.
I probably should have phrased it as non-permanent sanctions with an indefinite life. I can recall instances where sanctions were softened under one admin. only to be toughened under another. My main point is that until congress passes a bill that implements a permanent economic sanction of a government, they are all dependent on the whims of the administration and political pressure when it gets dropped.
So investing in a Krebs 103K Saiga would be a wise choice.
Ouroborous
08-07-14, 00:53
So investing in a Krebs 103K Saiga would be a wise choice.
Yeah sure. If you can find one at a reasonable price to begin with that is.
^If you could find one period. I spoke with Krebs; I was on the wait list for two of them since the August before Sandy Hook shooting. Last thing they told me a couple months back was that they do have Saigas for conversion, but they're just not sure what to do with them.
I just hope that with their recent change in how they take orders won't loose my place in line.
At this point, will Saiga AK's only go up in price? It seems that they're still available in GB and other places, but prices are slowly creeping up.
I'm asking because I have a fully converted Saiga 5.45 that I was contemplating on selling soon to get out of that caliber and stick with 5.56 and 7.62x39 only.
I think a lot of it has to do with the conversion itself, as well as the condition of the gun. Either way, I don't really think Saigas are going to suddenly jump to $2000+ guns.
Especially the unconverted ones, look at Arsenal SA-93's and Hungarian SA-85m's. You can still find NIB ones for +\- $1000, and how long has it been since they stopped importing them?
Converted Saigas will reach $2000 in value IMO, but that will be for NIB/LNIB professional conversions, not garage conversions. At least that's what I think.
I think a lot of it has to do with the conversion itself, as well as the condition of the gun. Either way, I don't really think Saigas are going to suddenly jump to $2000+ guns.
Especially the unconverted ones, look at Arsenal SA-93's and Hungarian SA-85m's. You can still find NIB ones for +\- $1000, and how long has it been since they stopped importing them?
Converted Saigas will reach $2000 in value IMO, but that will be for NIB/LNIB professional conversions, not garage conversions. At least that's what I think.
Mine was professionaly converted already when I bought it. Everything is straight including the sights.
I might put it up for sale anyway to see if there are any interest. I prefer AK47's for the larger round anyway.
I still have my SGL20-41 NIB that I got 2yrs ago. I haven't even fired yet as I just never got around to it(no close ranges nor did I own land). I just recently bought a house w/15 acres 2 months ago and currently building a range. I had intentions of finally firing it and putting it through it's paces but alas with all these sanctions I'm just going to keep it a safe queen I guess. So I'm looking at just acquiring a Yugo or Pap and shooting the snot out of those.
I wish I hadn't sold my Arsenal now :(
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