View Full Version : Reporting: Russians shot down a Malaysian Flight over Ukraine.
Mauser KAR98K
07-17-14, 11:04
Title to be edit in case the media gets it wrong.
http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board
A passenger plane with 295 people on board has been shot down as it flew above eastern Ukraine, according to aviation sources.
The Malaysia Airlines plane, which was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was travelling at an altitude of 10km (6.2 miles) when it was shot down, Russia's Interfax reported.
The Boeing 777 was brought down by a Buk ground-to-air missile, an adviser to the Ukrainian interior ministry quoted by the news agency said.
This just got interesting.
Do airliners routinely fly over war zones?
skijunkie55
07-17-14, 11:16
Oops... Guess I should have refreshed the GD page before posting...
half the news says "shot down" half says "crashed"
Grand58742
07-17-14, 11:22
This will not end well.
Prayers to the families of the victims.
A word to the wise....don't fly Malaysian Airlines. However this turns out, it most likely could have been avoided.
I'm sure it was just a fuel tank switch like TWA Flight 800.
TriviaMonster
07-17-14, 11:40
Either way, this is bad news and will further unrest until its sorted out.
Mauser KAR98K
07-17-14, 11:41
Rummaging through some other sites that have pictures of wreckage that is strewn over "15km area" with bodies in the pics, it was shot down. The Russians have been supply the "separatists" with SAMs, and "the separatists" have shot down a few Ukrainian planes the past two days, all high altitude shoots. I think some one wanted to one up their comrades...oops.
Either way, if all true, NATO, and hell the UN, need to come down on Putin hard for either supplying the rebels in a war to benefit them, or possibly lay blame at his feet as I believe their had to be a Russian adviser directing the SAM.
ETA: This could also give Ukraine the best shot of becoming an NATO member and getting NATO involved to drive out the separatist.
Eurodriver
07-17-14, 12:16
Flight 370 is finally discovered!
Grand58742
07-17-14, 12:18
Some interesting tweets:
Kateryna_Kruk @Kateryna_Kruk · 18m
Ukrainian police can't come to the side of the tragedy,terrorists are blocking the way.they said will send black boxes to Moscow...
hn Schindler @20committee · 11m
BREAKING: Andrei Purgin, DepPM of "Donetsk People's Republic," says #MH17 B777 black boxes will be given to Moscow for analysis -- Interfax
Here is where Moscow gets to be the good guys and turn over the FDR to an international committee or Malaysia.
Rummaging through some other sites that have pictures of wreckage that is strewn over "15km area" with bodies in the pics, it was shot down. The Russians have been supply the "separatists" with SAMs, and "the separatists" have shot down a few Ukrainian planes the past two days, all high altitude shoots. I think some one wanted to one up their comrades...oops.
Either way, if all true, NATO, and hell the UN, need to come down on Putin hard for either supplying the rebels in a war to benefit them, or possibly lay blame at his feet as I believe their had to be a Russian adviser directing the SAM.
ETA: This could also give Ukraine the best shot of becoming an NATO member and getting NATO involved to drive out the separatist.
The UN won't do anything, maybe just pass a resolution condemning the action by the separatist. They won't (or refuse to) see Russian fingerprints on this.
Ahhh the Evil Empire is officially back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAL_007
I'm sure it was just a fuel tank switch like TWA Flight 800.
Yup. Had to be. No other explanation exists.
KalashniKEV
07-17-14, 12:52
ETA: This could also give Ukraine the best shot of becoming an NATO member and getting NATO involved to drive out the separatist.
...which is exactly why the Kiev junta did it.
(the same as ISIS gassing the FSA and blaming al Assad)
/tinfoil
Fox claims there was 23 Americans on board.
WickedWillis
07-17-14, 12:58
What a terrible tragedy. If it was in fact shot down, someone needs to answer for this. Prayers and thoughts to all the families around the world who lost loved ones.
Fox claims there was 23 Americans on board.
And Russian fingerprints could very well be on this. Sanctions imposed on them just yesterday. Retaliation?
Our reaction will be interesting. Curious to watch N. Korea and China as well over the coming weeks...
No bueno...
And Russian fingerprints could very well be on this. Sanctions imposed on them just yesterday. Retaliation?
Our reaction will be interesting. Curious to watch N. Korea and China as well over the coming weeks...
No bueno...
Do you seriously think any official in the US government gives a rat's behind about the 23 Americans? It'll be labeled a tragedy and we'll go on down the road like always. If "we" don't get incensed about a diplomat and others killed in Libya, then what are these lives to us?
Do you seriously think any official in the US government gives a rat's behind about the 23 Americans? It'll be labeled a tragedy and we'll go on down the road like always. If "we" don't get incensed about a diplomat and others killed in Libya, then what are these lives to us?
Exactly.
Mauser KAR98K
07-17-14, 14:15
All right, Obama to the rescu....oh wait, he said something, now back to campaigning. Never mind 23 Americans were killed in a possible act of war.
Do you seriously think any official in the US government gives a rat's behind about the 23 Americans? It'll be labeled a tragedy and we'll go on down the road like always. If "we" don't get incensed about a diplomat and others killed in Libya, then what are these lives to us?
Understand the frustration but I wouldn't be so sure about that.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/here-real-time-flight-path-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh-17
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/fingerpointing-begins-ukraine-accuses-rebels-shooting-down-airplane-rebels-deny
I posted these in the Ukraine thread.
All of the puzzle pieces are falling into place. It was only a matter of time before we got dragged into this.
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-14, 15:28
"It wasn't the separatists, although Russia will try to blame them, or blame the Ukrainians."
- Retired Army Lt. Col Ralph Peters
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-passenger-jet-shot-down-over-ukraine/
Both the FAA and the State Department issued a travel warning a month ago about crossing this airspace. Malaysian Airlines must have ignored it:
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/ukraine-travel-warning.html
I surmise: The Russians gave the sepratists some missles, who are trying to get a shot at the Ukranian Air Force aircraft that are attacking them - and someone didn't do a better job of identifing a commercial aircraft vs. a fast mover. Or maybe there was a Ukraine jet in the AO and the missile locked onto the bigger signature..I can't see any reason/motive why the Russians would intentionally do this..
Either way, I doubt Putin thinks this was in his countries best interests to happen, so there is big-time mud on his face. But remember, we shot down an Iranian airliner, caught all kinds of hell, and paid out the azz in reparations....it happens...
Watching FOX and they are saying the Separatists claimed on Twitter that they shot down an Antonov An225 when it was actually this plane. The tweets have since been removed of course but I'm sure our friends at the NSA have them...
ETA: After a little googling, anybody that confuses a Boeing 777 for the only Antonov AN225 in existence is a complete ****ing idiot...
Mauser KAR98K
07-17-14, 16:24
Thing is, Vladimir is illegally arming separatist to get some sort of justification to invade Ukraine. He is completely responsible for this.
Who ever the missile controller (s) were, they were probably rewarded with a few 9x18mm rounds on the back on the head.
All right, Obama to the rescu....oh wait, he said something, now back to campaigning. Never mind 23 Americans were killed in a possible act of war.
Hillary will be along shortly to explain that at this point it really doesn't make any difference.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-passenger-jet-shot-down-over-ukraine/
His only justification for that assertion seems to be that he doesn't think the Russians would have given the rebels the missiles.
Thing is, Vladimir is illegally arming separatist to get some sort of justification to invade Ukraine. He is completely responsible for this.
Who ever the missile controller (s) were, they were probably rewarded with a few 9x18mm rounds on the back on the head.
Or at least partly responsible for giving this hardware to them...but it's now going to backfire in his face as there are plenty of other nations with citizens on this flight that are going to be pissed...we can only hope there were a bunch of Chinese nationals on it also...
Right now there's somebody in Eastern Ukraine going "Ooops"....
FlyingHunter
07-17-14, 19:10
Hillary will be along shortly to explain that at this point it really doesn't make any difference.
Excellent wit, well done
Ned Christiansen
07-17-14, 19:21
Remember KAL Flight 007.
Don't buy any Stoli.
I say, even if Ukraine forces did this by accident, it's still the aggressor Putin's fault.
Eurodriver
07-17-14, 20:18
Remember KAL Flight 007.
Don't buy any Stoli.
I say, even if Ukraine forces did this by accident, it's still the aggressor Putin's fault.
Interestingly, the commander of the air base the MIGs were launched from, Anatoly Kornukov, was promoted to Commander of the Russian Air Force and primarily focused on missile defense against civilian airliners that posed a threat to civilian cities. He just died a few weeks ago.
Odd, even if its nothing significant.
I caught a bit trolling the web that supposedly a high ranking Russian officials plane was expected to be on a similar if not identical flight path which suggests if that were the case the Ukrainians were trying to take him/her out. Only it was the wrong jet, obviously. Can anyone collaborate that?
Also what in the hell are commercial airliners doing flying over a war zone in the first place?
That official was supposedly Putin, and that is one of rumors being spread by Russian media. It was neither confirmed nor denied by Russian administration, and was strongly disputed by a report from an airfield that hosts Putin's plane where it was stated that Putin doesn't fly over Ukrainian territory.
Flight 370 is finally discovered!
It is interesting Air Malaysia lost two planes Big $$$ loss. Tin foil hat? I wonder though.
I bet Putin himself realizes what a cluster F he has on his hands now.
Clearly it was the separatists who did this, having shot down other aircraft this week.
They thought they were pushing a button on another one, though how in the hell they mistook a plane at 33,000 feet for a Ukrainen aircraft in the area is beyond me.
decodeddiesel
07-17-14, 22:57
Someone needs to pay for this.
MountainRaven
07-17-14, 23:30
NPR reported this evening that one of the separatist commanders boasted on his Twitter account of having shot down a Ukrainian military transport at or around the time that the Malaysian airliner was shot down and that those comments have been subsequently deleted from said Twitter account.
And that the missile(s) that (may have) destroyed the airliner were very probably fired from a SPAAG packing a Buk missile system - a weapon system (of course) utilized in large numbers by both Russia and Ukraine and supplied by Russia to the separatists.
Someone needs to pay for this.There's something around a 20-33% chance our tax dollars probably did.
but at leaf obama got to two fundraisers and hammered on republicans !
sure he read about it like you and I as he always says and seemed to not even know if the Americans lives lost were true ? then again he does not care about this country other than to destroy it
frigin makes me sick anymore the crap going on around us
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-14, 23:58
There's something around a 20-33% chance our tax dollars probably did.
Yup. What happened to all those MANPADs we supplied AQ/ISIS to help the "freedom fighters" topple Gaddafi and Assad?
Grand58742
07-18-14, 00:32
Massive fail by MSNBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jecFzJ1sgIQ
eightmillimeter
07-18-14, 01:19
Massive fail by MSNBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jecFzJ1sgIQ
NOT A MISSILE
http://youtu.be/roCjDRgewLw?t=3m30s
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-18-14, 01:25
I bet Putin himself realizes what a cluster F he has on his hands now.
Clearly it was the separatists who did this, having shot down other aircraft this week.
They thought they were pushing a button on another one, though how in the hell they mistook a plane at 33,000 feet for a Ukrainen aircraft in the area is beyond me.
I agree. Putin's comments recently about the situation in eastern Ukraine made me think that he felt like he was no longer in control of the separatists and things were getting out of hand. The RT network is going to have a hard time spinning this one.
Know what I'm waiting for? Sooner or later someone is going to bring up the USS Vincennes incident in 1988 with the Iranian airliner. Kind of a "You made a big mistake too you know! You have a lot of room to criticize us."
Grand58742
07-18-14, 02:04
Know what I'm waiting for? Sooner or later someone is going to bring up the USS Vincennes incident in 1988 with the Iranian airliner. Kind of a "You made a big mistake too you know! You have a lot of room to criticize us."
It's already being mentioned in the same articles as MH77.
It's already being mentioned in the same articles as MH77.
Well that didn't take long.
Little different circumstances though. MH was at like 36K feet, while the Iranian one was nowhere near that. We did ID the Iranian jet visually but it ignored attempts at radio contact (this is from memory, not Wiki so it may be a tad off). Flight path took it on a heading towards the Vincennes. Subjectively, knowing the Islamic propensity towards suicide missions (this was not even 5 years after the USMC Beirut fiasco) it was deemed a threat and shot down. Not justifying it but the Ukraine situation was more one of bragging rights about shooting down an "enemy" plane; the Vincennes incident was more of a *perceived* self-defense shoot.
EDIT: Did actually read up on it and the U.S. royally farked up with regards to the Vincennes incident. A tragedy indeed.
Averageman
07-18-14, 04:24
We can get to the bottom of this in hours and have an answer.
Lerners e-mails in our own govt system,..ehhhh not so much.
Rummaging through some other sites that have pictures of wreckage that is strewn over "15km area" with bodies in the pics, it was shot down. The Russians have been supply the "separatists" with SAMs, and "the separatists" have shot down a few Ukrainian planes the past two days, all high altitude shoots. I think some one wanted to one up their comrades...oops.
Either way, if all true, NATO, and hell the UN, need to come down on Putin hard for either supplying the rebels in a war to benefit them, or possibly lay blame at his feet as I believe their had to be a Russian adviser directing the SAM.
ETA: This could also give Ukraine the best shot of becoming an NATO member and getting NATO involved to drive out the separatist.
Oh you mean just like we've been arming radical Muslims in places like Syria, Egypt, and Libya???????? You know the ones that have been wrecking those countries since we started shipping them arms and funding..
Say have they ever found that other Malaysian 777 that just disappeared a few months ago?
Eurodriver
07-18-14, 07:10
Oh you mean just like we've been arming radical Muslims in places like Syria, Egypt, and Libya???????? You know the ones that have been wrecking those countries since we started shipping them arms and funding..
Say have they ever found that other Malaysian 777 that just disappeared a few months ago?
JDub, I don't know if I've said this before but despite our disagreements regarding LEO matters, know that I think you *are on point* with the rest of your posts.
Voodoochild
07-18-14, 07:47
Massive fail by MSNBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jecFzJ1sgIQ
Not to laugh at a tragic situation but that just shows you how dumb the MSM is. They will believe anything that is told to them. If they had done some research they would have known that the Embassy is a long way from the crash site and no one is gonna be able to see a plane getting shot down at 30K+ feet in the air.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-18-14, 07:56
There's something around a 20-33% chance our tax dollars probably did.
Except the plane was out of the Stinger engagement capabilities?
montanadave
07-18-14, 10:45
Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of mystery here regarding what happened: http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000003007434/intercepted-audio-of-ukraine-separatists.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld
Now it's time for the whole "fog of war" scenario to play out, with accusations, denials, and recriminations from all sides. The Russians will NEVER acknowledge supplying these SAM batteries to the separatists or having any role in their command and control; they'll claim the separatists seized the missiles from the Ukrainians during all the recent confusion and redirect blame on the Ukrainians for failing to secure their weapons. And good luck finding any evidence from the crash scene to positively identify just whose missile this was, as the scene has been contaminated, pilfered, sanitized, and god-knows-what else since this massive ****-up went public.
Bottom line is giving hillbillies sophisticated weapon systems will inevitably bite someone in the ass. Better to let these folks duke it out old school . . . like with rocks and sticks. But, hey, there's lots of money to be made selling all these goodies to folks hither and yon so I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Apparently the top 100 HIV/AIDS researchers were on the plane as well, en route to a conference in Melbourne. One article I saw talked about setting back AIDS treatment many many years.
Averageman
07-18-14, 11:24
Apparently the top 100 HIV/AIDS researchers were on the plane as well, en route to a conference in Melbourne. One article I saw talked about setting back AIDS treatment many many years.
I saw that last night, pretty damned tragic.
Just eyeballing a flat map, it looks to me like you'd have to fly a few hundred miles off of a straight line course to get OVER Ukraine.
Flying a relatively straight shot from Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur takes you over Romania and sich! ??
Grand58742
07-18-14, 12:29
Just eyeballing a flat map, it looks to me like you'd have to fly a few hundred miles off of a straight line course to get OVER Ukraine.
Flying a relatively straight shot from Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur takes you over Romania and sich! ??
Here's some maps of the international airways that travel over and close to the Ukraine.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=2
Many interesting theories and a lot of photos of crash site:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696975/Putin-blames-Ukraine-loss-Flight-MH17-298-innocent-souls-DOESNT-deny-Russian-separatists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html
- Did MH17 pilot divert INTO the danger zone? Aviation expert claims captain made last-minute change of course over Ukraine because he 'felt uncomfortable'
- Russian military expert claims pilot radioed his concerns about the route before diverting over rebel-held territory
- Russian media explores theory that Ukrainian armed forces shot down Boeing 777 after mistaking it for Putin's jet
- Malaysia Airlines filed flight plan requesting 35,000 feet through airspace but was told to fly at 33,000
- Kremlin leader was flying back to Moscow from Brazilian World Cup at around same time passenger plane crashed
- Russian aviation sources said the routes of the two planes 'crossed at the same point and on the same altitude'
- Ukrainian official accuses Putin of smuggling missile launcher back into Russia to cover up Kremlin involvement
- Malaysian transport minister said MH17 was flying on approved route and pilot given no last-minute instructions
- Putin calls for a ceasefire by pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces to allow for negotiations
- Confusion over the two black boxes: Rebel says none found, another said it has eight, Ukraine says it has both
Just eyeballing a flat map, it looks to me like you'd have to fly a few hundred miles off of a straight line course to get OVER Ukraine.
Flying a relatively straight shot from Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur takes you over Romania and sich! ??
The route you describe is what Malaysian 17 did today.
Looking back, over the last few days, that flight has taken a more southerly route passing near Crimea instead of directly over eastern Ukraine/Donetsk.
Here's today's flight path:
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/ii551/PalmguyFL/Studio_20140718_133048_zpsxj7hvsth.jpg
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From Daily Mail link above:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/18/article-2696975-1FC221C400000578-6_964x487.jpg
Yeah... I was looking at that image. Great fuel for conspiracy theories.
montanadave
07-18-14, 16:10
Using a great circle mapper indicates nothing particularly unusual about this flight path: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=AMS-KUL&MS=wls&DU=mi
Whiskey_Bravo
07-18-14, 16:13
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_REBEL_COMMANDER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-18-14-22-48
Weird statements by one of rebels/terrorist/separatist/wtfever
A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash - suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.
The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.
Epic MSNBC Punk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7laZU-yKh04
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ColtSeavers
07-18-14, 16:39
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_REBEL_COMMANDER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-18-14-22-48
Weird statements by one of rebels/terrorist/separatist/wtfever
I remember that movie!
Millennium
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0097883/
WickedWillis
07-18-14, 16:44
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_REBEL_COMMANDER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-18-14-22-48
Weird statements by one of rebels/terrorist/separatist/wtfever
If that was true, well then I am not sure how I would feel. The conspiracy theorists love this.
Moose-Knuckle
07-18-14, 16:57
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE_REBEL_COMMANDER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-18-14-22-48
Weird statements by one of rebels/terrorist/separatist/wtfever
Hmmm, might have to add this one to the growing list of false flag ops.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-18-14, 22:15
A hot head with a AA missile is just to simple for people???? I frickn swear that some people go out of their way to make everything more convoluted than it needs to be. Bad shit happens- accidentally and on purpose. There are amazing close calls where bad things don't happen and no one thinks there was a some good conspiracy.
Please, if you think this was more than just a separatist with an itchy trigger finger, please sound off. I've whittled down my ignore list and I'm looking for new dumb-asses to populate it with.
It was Elvis trying to shoot down the plane because Hitler's frozen body was on board with a post trans-sexual operation Osama Bin Laden sponsored by the oil companies, the multilateral commission with space aliens, telekinesis and a talking dog who had come up with a cure for aids and big pharma wanted to milk the current cocktail and the Pope wants gays to suffer.
A missile shot down an airplane, that's what it does- why does there need to be a conspiracy about it...
MountainRaven
07-19-14, 00:27
Except the plane was out of the Stinger engagement capabilities?
I haven't read or heard anything suggesting the (alleged) missile was fired by a man-portable SAM. Rather that it was an SA-11 'Gadfly' - a vehicle-mounted SAM.
A hot head with a AA missile is just to simple for people???? I frickn swear that some people go out of their way to make everything more convoluted than it needs to be. Bad shit happens- accidentally and on purpose. There are amazing close calls where bad things don't happen and no one thinks there was a some good conspiracy.
Please, if you think this was more than just a separatist with an itchy trigger finger, please sound off. I've whittled down my ignore list and I'm looking for new dumb-asses to populate it with.
It was Elvis trying to shoot down the plane because Hitler's frozen body was on board with a post trans-sexual operation Osama Bin Laden sponsored by the oil companies, the multilateral commission with space aliens, telekinesis and a talking dog who had come up with a cure for aids and big pharma wanted to milk the current cocktail and the Pope wants gays to suffer.
A missile shot down an airplane, that's what it does- why does there need to be a conspiracy about it...
I'm not entirely convinced it wasn't a moment of mental retardation on the part of either the Russians or the Ukrainians. I think that it is most likely separatists, but there still exists a good possibility that either the Russians or the Ukrainians pulled the trigger when they shouldn't have.
A missile shot down an airplane, that's what it does- why does there need to be a conspiracy about it...
That's right, don't you dare ask any questions regarding anything!!! You only need to know what CNN tells you by GAWD!!!
It was Putin, he had his hands on the TNT plunger and blew up the plane like yosemite sam! And Iran helped!....somehow...
RINO's assemble!!! Its time for WWIII!!!!!!!!!!!!
And again, don't ask any questions regarding anything about this or any other incident. You'll be told what you need to know.
montanadave
07-19-14, 07:48
And, interestingly enough, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-19-14, 08:57
I haven't read or heard anything suggesting the (alleged) missile was fired by a man-portable SAM. Rather that it was an SA-11 'Gadfly' - a vehicle-mounted SAM.
I took the comments that we may have paid for this to mean that some of the loose stingers from Syria and Libya had found their way to the Ukraine. The height of attack, size of the target and damage done seems to indicate to me that it could not have been a US provided, sponsored or sourced missile- unless we are handing out Patriots..
Interesting how missiles are being used for good by the Israeli's to stop inbound attacks, and there to shoot down airliners.
Mauser KAR98K
07-19-14, 09:08
And, interestingly enough, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Unless you're Bill Clinton.
montanadave
07-19-14, 09:58
Unless you're Bill Clinton.
So did anyone ever identify what brand of cigar Slick Willy was poking around with? I would think that might have made a spectacular ad campaign.
Averageman
07-19-14, 10:03
It's kind of interesting watching MSNBC hosts get all swole up and tuff and call for action against Russia.
I think I threw up in my mouth a little.
Moose-Knuckle
07-19-14, 11:31
That's right, don't you dare ask any questions regarding anything!!! You only need to know what CNN tells you by GAWD!!!
It was Putin, he had his hands on the TNT plunger and blew up the plane like yosemite sam! And Iran helped!....somehow...
RINO's assemble!!! Its time for WWIII!!!!!!!!!!!!
And again, don't ask any questions regarding anything about this or any other incident. You'll be told what you need to know.
Spot on.
Pretty much every war for the last century was started over a false flag op/black swan of sort or another.
Averageman
07-19-14, 11:33
Spot on.
Pretty much every war for the last century was started over a false flag op/black swan of sort or another.
And from the fever pitched cry for some sort of action this morning it wont be long.
montanadave
07-19-14, 11:41
There have been a couple dozen civilian airliners shot down under all manner of circumstances by a variety of characters, the United States included, over the past fifty years. While some incidents occurred in active conflict zones, I don't recall any precipitating a war.
MountainRaven
07-19-14, 13:05
And, interestingly enough, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
In fact, a cigar is just about always just a cigar.
I took the comments that we may have paid for this to mean that some of the loose stingers from Syria and Libya had found their way to the Ukraine. The height of attack, size of the target and damage done seems to indicate to me that it could not have been a US provided, sponsored or sourced missile- unless we are handing out Patriots..
Interesting how missiles are being used for good by the Israeli's to stop inbound attacks, and there to shoot down airliners.
Those comments are not hugely surprising.
As I mentioned in another thread, for some folks, if a clock says 4:30 and Obama says the clock says 4:30, he must be lying and the clock cannot actually say 4:30.
A hot head with a AA missile is just to simple for people???? I frickn swear that some people go out of their way to make everything more convoluted than it needs to be. Bad shit happens- accidentally and on purpose. There are amazing close calls where bad things don't happen and no one thinks there was a some good conspiracy.
Please, if you think this was more than just a separatist with an itchy trigger finger, please sound off. I've whittled down my ignore list and I'm looking for new dumb-asses to populate it with.
It was Elvis trying to shoot down the plane because Hitler's frozen body was on board with a post trans-sexual operation Osama Bin Laden sponsored by the oil companies, the multilateral commission with space aliens, telekinesis and a talking dog who had come up with a cure for aids and big pharma wanted to milk the current cocktail and the Pope wants gays to suffer.
A missile shot down an airplane, that's what it does- why does there need to be a conspiracy about it...
Thank-you. Crap like that is the biggest downside to this forum.
the problem is obama would say its 4:15 and then campaign about it for a while and attend a fund raiser then call you racist for disagreeing with him !
the man is a liar about lots of things and has been caught lying over and over and over and over and over and can not be trusted
he rarely tells you the truth
In fact, a cigar is just about always just a cigar.
As I mentioned in another thread, for some folks, if a clock says 4:30 and Obama says the clock says 4:30, he must be lying and the clock cannot actually say 4:30.
like friendly fire in war times things happen
agree with others this was just something thinking they were shooting down a few more supply planes and messed up
what is the bad thing is the cover up that Russia seems to be doing BUT the pilot should never have been anywhere near that airspace either have to kinda lay blame on both of them
bad circumstances all the way around
Spot on.
Pretty much every war for the last century was started over a false flag op/black swan of sort or another.
I find it a bit odd that a MALAYSIAN 777 disappeared into thin air, literally, and now another MALAYSIAN 777 is conveniently blown out of the sky and blamed on Russia....
Just seems a bit strange.
I find it a bit odd that a MALAYSIAN 777 disappeared into thin air, literally, and now another MALAYSIAN 777 is conveniently blown out of the sky and blamed on Russia....
Just seems a bit strange.
Maybe someone is trying to devalue Malaysian airline stock lol
Maybe someone is trying to devalue Malaysian airline stock lol
An Asian version of Le Chiffre?
An Asian version of Le Chiffre?
Damn blood weepers I tell ya. Poker anyone?
My sources are telling me that it was likely a Jericho-2 which is the SAM version of Stark Industries flagship "Freedom Line" of weapon. Several of these made it into the black market.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBC1Qob27sM
MountainRaven
07-20-14, 15:09
My sources are telling me that it was likely a Jericho-2 which is the SAM version of Stark Industries flagship "Freedom Line" of weapon. Several of these made it into the black market.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBC1Qob27sM
Tony needs to get in his suit and fix that, then.
If this clip is legit, the article raises some very challenging questions. I suggest reading the linked article. What personal horror that must have been for those people on board (if conscious) as they fell over 33k feet out of control. :sad:
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/mikeshedlock/2014/07/21/video-of-mh17-hit-by-missile-n1864123?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl
Video of MH17 Hit by Missile?
Reader David sent an email and accompanying video that purportedly shows the Malaysian Flight 17 being hit by missile. Let's take a look.
David Writes ...
It appears as if the right engine and wing area took the hit. The camera operator is able to record the moment of impact in the first 2 seconds of this clip. Note the smoke burst left behind on impact with the #2 engine area. There is a 18 second delay (speed of sound delay) due to the distance and altitude of the explosion. Question: How did this video operator know to have his camera running just prior to the missile explosion? How many people run their camera in the sky looking for an airplane cruising at altitude so high that most are not visible to the human eye? Note that the pilots are maintaining wings level, the airplane and burning wing still intact, in what appears to be an uncontrolled descent from 33,000 feet when the video ends at 1 minute 19 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
Eurodriver
07-21-14, 12:49
I find it a bit odd that a MALAYSIAN 777 disappeared into thin air, literally, and now another MALAYSIAN 777 is conveniently blown out of the sky and blamed on Russia....
Just seems a bit strange.
Agreed. Occam's Razor usually holds true, but not always.
Is it possible that the simplest explanation (pilot suicide and Russian terrorists) were the cause of these disasters? Probably, but how do we really know?
WickedWillis
07-21-14, 13:02
If this clip is legit, the article raises some very challenging questions. I suggest reading the linked article. What personal horror that must have been for those people on board (if conscious) as they fell over 33k feet out of control. :sad:
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/mikeshedlock/2014/07/21/video-of-mh17-hit-by-missile-n1864123?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaQzMv89eeo
That is horrifying. I cannot even imagine. There are so many things that are completely odd occurrences surrounding this.
MountainRaven
07-21-14, 13:25
If this clip is legit, the article raises some very challenging questions. I suggest reading the linked article. What personal horror that must have been for those people on board (if conscious) as they fell over 33k feet out of control. :sad:
...plummeting thirty-three thousand feet after watching their fellow passengers get turned into hamburger by the missile's shrapnel.
If this clip is legit, the article raises some very challenging questions. I suggest reading the linked article. What personal horror that must have been for those people on board (if conscious) as they fell over 33k feet out of control. :sad:
The upload date for that video is June 6th, 2014. I believe it's the subject of this article which claims it's an AH-30 being shot down: http://operkor.net/pod-slavyanskom-sbili-ukrainskij-samolet-razvedchik-an-30/49743.html
http://operkor.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ан.jpg
Yeah, that doesn't look like a 777.
And SA-11s don't target engines.
The upload date for that video is June 6th, 2014. I believe it's the subject of this article which claims it's an AH-30 being shot down: http://operkor.net/pod-slavyanskom-sbili-ukrainskij-samolet-razvedchik-an-30/49743.html
http://operkor.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ан.jpg
Good catch!
Yeah, that doesn't look like a 777.
And SA-11s don't target engines.
That's what I thought too when I saw the footage. It was pretty obvious the engine had taken the hit and I assumed heat seeking missile. I would have assumed if it was a Buk-type, the plane would have been shredded and broken up mid-air (as the ground debris seems to verify). This was also pointed out in the linked article, but Irish's find makes my thoughts mute.
Mo_Zam_Beek
07-21-14, 15:12
The bigger picture take away - if these things are correct - at least one party has shot down a (private?) aircraft in that area AND that part of the story is NOT being included in this story.
Good catch!
Just trying to help. :) The only reason I caught it was I went to the actual Youtube video page that shows the upload date.
The bigger picture take away - if these things are correct - at least one party has shot down a (private?) aircraft in that area AND that part of the story is NOT being included in this story.
Separatists have shot down several aircraft, including one at 22K only 2 days before MH17...
With the tone of the reporting this may be a CIA incident.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-14, 20:46
The bigger picture take away - if these things are correct - at least one party has shot down a (private?) aircraft in that area AND that part of the story is NOT being included in this story.
Uhm, a few planes were shot down in the area.
Mauser KAR98K
07-22-14, 01:24
With the tone of the reporting this may be a CIA incident.
Say whaaaa????
He is from California :)
Say whaaaa????
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-14, 08:19
I think that some people are tone deaf.
Being serious, where is the 'ignore' button? I thought it used to be an option from a post, but I can't find it???
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/malaysia-plane-crash-propaganda-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
A good overview of what the world thinks and Russia's take on it. In hotels I had seen 'RT' news channel, but I just assumed it was Reuter's news service. Hard to tell the psuedo commies from the real thing.
Today's report on Il Corriere della Sera, east ukraine pro-russian rebels admit shooting down plane:
http://www.corriere.it/english/14_luglio_22/how-malaysian-plane-was-shot-down-51e99c60-118f-11e4-affb-3320a03d21e8.shtml
How Malaysian Plane was Shot Down
Pro-Russian militiamen describe tragedy: “Superiors told us about plane carrying paratroopers from Kiev”
di Lorenzo Cremonesi in Ukraine
“We shot down a Kiev plane, our superiors told us. We thought we were looking for baled-out Ukrainian pilots but instead we found dead civilians”. The aftermath of the shooting down of the Malaysian Boeing from Amsterdam last Thursday, as told to the Corriere della Sera by a pro-Russian militiaman, is something of an eye-opener. Moscow claims there was a Ukrainian fighter in the area, Kiev denies this and Obama has called for investigations to go ahead without hindrance. Meanwhile, the remains of 282 of the 298 victims - 16 are unaccounted for - are in a refrigerated train waiting to set off for Holland.
“We thought we were going to fight but instead we found dead civilians”
“We thought we would have to fight baled out Ukrainian pilots but instead we found dead civilians. All those poor people with baggage that certainly wasn’t military”. We spoke to a militiaman from the Oplot (stronghold) combat unit at midday yesterday on the concrete platforms of Torez railway station. He was standing beside five rail wagons - four refrigerated and the fifth with the refrigeration unit’s diesel geneerators - containing the human remains collected among the sunflower fields in pro-Russian separatist-held Ukraine. His words are revealing because he spoke them quite naturally, without reflecting, after telling us about the international representatives’ recently completed inspection of the bodies and his unit’s orders to stand
guard over the wagons. In its innocence and simplicity, the story is significant. In fact, it could provide new evidence for those who blame the pro-Russians for mistakenly launching the fatal missile under the impression that their target was a Ukrainian military aircraft.
“I was looking for a parachute and I found the body of a little girl”
“On Thursday afternoon, our commanders ordered us to get into the lorries with our weapons and plenty of ammunition. Perhaps ten minutes earlier, there had been a huge explosion in the sky. ‘We’ve just shot down one of the Kiev Fascists’ planes’, they told us, warning us to take care because at least some of the crew had reportedly baled out. White objects had been seen floating in the clouds. We might have had to fight to round them up”, the soldier explained. He had orders not to reveal his name or rank and neither would his Oplot companions. About ten militiamen were on the platform while the others stood guard on the track or on the edge of the village. My soldier told me he was thirty-one, lived in Torez and worked locally as a miner. He was happy to be photographed with the fresh seals on three of the wagons applied by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). Two hundred and eighty-two bodies had been collected and the fourth wagon remained open to receive the last few. The soldier made a point of telling me the area was calm. “We’re doing a good job. The European inspectors said the bodies were satisfactorily conserved. The temperature inside the wagons is kept between 0 °C and -5 °C”, he told me, before continuing his account of the tragic day: “My men and I were looking for parachutes on the ground and in the trees. All of a sudden, I saw scraps of material in a clearing. Underneath I found the body of a little girl, who can’t have been more than five. She was lying face down. It was awful. That was when I realised it was a civilian plane. Not a military one. And all these dead people were civilians. A heap of burst suitcases confirmed it”. The Oplot unit has been at the site ever since. They were the first to be tasked with identifying the bodies and then kept watch over the wreckage of the Malaysian jet before guarding the mortuary wagons. Yet the militiamen showed no sense of guilt, contradicting their commander who supplied the official version. “Obviously, it wasn’t us that shot the jet down. We haven’t got missiles that reach that high. This crime was committed by the bandits who take orders from the Kiev government. One of their fighters could easily have shot down the Malaysian Airlines plane”, they point out.
Agreement for handover of bodies
The militiamen’s hostility to Kiev was accompanied yesterday afternoon by sporadic fighting at the airport and railway station in Donetsk, the separatists’ capital. At least four people were killed in the city centre, all of them near the station. As evening drew in, however, the tension appeared to ease. Bursts of gunfire ceased to echo in the streets. Crucially, an agreement was reached to hand over the bodies and the stricken aircraft’s black boxes in a deal clinched during a phone call between the Malaysian prime minister, Najib Razak, and the self-proclaimed separatist prime minister, Alexander Boradai. It’s a solution that seemed to satisfy the pro-Russians, given that it leapfrogged the Kiev government. The refrigerated wagons with the remains of at least 282 bodies - the other sixteen are understood to have been destroyed in the blast - are due to move off during the night for Donetsk, and then the terminal at Kharhiv controlled by Ukrainian regular forces. The Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, has confirmed the agreement. This means that the remains and black boxes should be flown to Amsterdam in a Dutch C130 Hercules, escorted by a team of Danish and Dutch experts.
Moose-Knuckle
07-22-14, 15:58
With the tone of the reporting this may be a CIA incident.
Russian State Media Says CIA Shot Down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101852656#.
They claim the CIA aided the Ukrainians in taking down the airliner and blame it on the Russians and or their supporters. They also reference Operation Northwoods a past CIA false flag that almost happened. I find it also very interesting that they mention the BRIC nations angle in all of this.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-14, 17:14
Russian State Media Says CIA Shot Down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101852656#.
They claim the CIA aided the Ukrainians in taking down the airliner and blame it on the Russians and or their supporters. They also reference Operation Northwoods a past CIA false flag that almost happened. I find it also very interesting that they mention the BRIC nations angle in all of this.
So it is a 1960s CIA plot? More like the Russian cover-up is a replay of the 1980s KAL007 cover up, which was to blame the US. I like the mention that Russia is the leader of the BRICs.... yep, not so much.
I guess we should be honored that we are implicated. I wish we were half as diabolical and scheming as our enemies make us out to be..
One would think that blaming the U.S. is so.... Convenient?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-14, 17:46
One would think that blaming the U.S. is so.... Convenient?
Nobody ever expects the Spanish (Inquisition). I wonder if Finland ever feels left out of conspiracies. They could complain that they were against the Russians with the Nazi's- so they could be dangerous....
Ironically, like the old joke about the two poor Russian Jews reading the tabloid newspapers about how they were ruling the world.
What appears to be shrapnel.
http://defensetech.org/2014/07/21/mh17-wreckage-photo-shows-evidence-of-shrapnel/
MountainRaven
07-22-14, 20:43
So it is a 1960s CIA plot? More like the Russian cover-up is a replay of the 1980s KAL007 cover up, which was to blame the US. I like the mention that Russia is the leader of the BRICs.... yep, not so much.
I guess we should be honored that we are implicated. I wish we were half as diabolical and scheming as our enemies make us out to be..
If only our government and intelligence services were half as capable and intelligent (if as cold-heartedly ruthless) as they make us out to be.
Nobody ever expects the Spanish (Inquisition). I wonder if Finland ever feels left out of conspiracies. They could complain that they were against the Russians with the Nazi's- so they could be dangerous....
Ironically, like the old joke about the two poor Russian Jews reading the tabloid newspapers about how they were ruling the world.
Ever read The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? Or more importantly, it's sequels? It pretty heavily involves a conspiracy with the Swedish government (being set in Sweden). Not exactly the same thing as the Finnish government, of course, but you can pretty much guarantee that Finnish thriller authors will probably not infrequently use Finnish government conspiracies.
skijunkie55
07-23-14, 07:19
These pro-russian separatists are just having a hay-day with their SAMs lately...
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/23/2-ukrainian-military-fighter-jets-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine/
KIEV, Ukraine – Two Ukrainian military fighter jets have been shot down in the east, according to the country's Defense Ministry.
The Sukhoi-25 fighters were shot down 1:30 p.m. local time Wednesday over an area called Savur Mogila.
Defense Ministry spokesman Oleksiy Dmitrashkovsky says the planes may have been carrying up to two crew members each.
Mauser KAR98K
07-23-14, 10:59
These pro-russian separatists are just having a hay-day with their SAMs lately...
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/23/2-ukrainian-military-fighter-jets-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine/
KIEV, Ukraine – Two Ukrainian military fighter jets have been shot down in the east, according to the country's Defense Ministry.
The Sukhoi-25 fighters were shot down 1:30 p.m. local time Wednesday over an area called Savur Mogila.
Defense Ministry spokesman Oleksiy Dmitrashkovsky says the planes may have been carrying up to two crew members each.
Paging Wild Weasels.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-23-14, 12:12
Paging Wild Weasels.
Do they call the drone versions 'Robot Weasels"?
He is from California :)I have seen their methods of operation in central and S. America in the 1970s. I am Sorry if I don't blindly believe what the tv and radio
tells me , forgive me if I am not as mindless and non thinking as the majority of TV watchers are. Follow the money. Just a little common sense sometimes goes a long way.
I was kinda poking fun :)
I hear ya and don't trust things either press or our gov or any gov for that matter :)
911 I don't think was a inside job like some do ?
this was not the CIA it was the same guys who had been shooting down planes already they just screwed up shot down a passenger plane this time and are covering there butts now
all the chatter is pretty clear who did it and was a accident or tragedy really but was accidental
again not everything is the CIA etc... but makes for a great story if it was
I have seen their methods of operation in central and S. America in the 1970s. I am Sorry if I don't blindly believe what the tv and radio
tells me , forgive me if I am not as mindless and non thinking as the majority of TV watchers are. Follow the money. Just a little common sense sometimes goes a long way.
I am Sorry if I don't blindly believe what the tv and radio
tells me.
I know, I really wish we would stop blindly doing that here as a group.
forgive me if I am not as mindless and non thinking as the majority of TV watchers are. Follow the money.
Instead of insinuating how above the crowd you are why not provide a little substance? Where is the money trail leading you specifically? We await the answer.
Just a little common sense sometimes goes a long way.
Write this on a piece of paper and tape it to your computer screen, then ponder why you were asked to do so.
Just pay attention to the news and figure out why what is going on. What is there to gain? Where does the $$$ come from? Who is stirring up the pot? I search for the info you have a computer so you can search the web as needed. I don't trust the Ruskie government. The Euro government, the Arab government or our government to do what is "correct and proper" based upon prior results.
skijunkie55
07-24-14, 07:05
I think we might need to rename this thread "Another reason why you shouldn't board that plane today..."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/air-algerie-plane-reportedly-disappears-from-radar/
"An Air Algerie flight carrying 116 people from Burkina Faso to Algeria's capital disappeared from radar early Thursday, according to the the plane's owner.
Air navigation services lost track of the Swiftair MD-83 roughly 50 minutes after takeoff from Ougadougou, the capital of Burkina Faso, at 9:55 p.m. ET Wednesday, the official Algerian news agency said. That means that Flight 5017 had been missing for hours before the news was made public."
WickedWillis
07-24-14, 11:45
I think we might need to rename this thread "Another reason why you shouldn't board that plane today..."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/air-algerie-plane-reportedly-disappears-from-radar/
"An Air Algerie flight carrying 116 people from Burkina Faso to Algeria's capital disappeared from radar early Thursday, according to the the plane's owner.
Air navigation services lost track of the Swiftair MD-83 roughly 50 minutes after takeoff from Ougadougou, the capital of Burkina Faso, at 9:55 p.m. ET Wednesday, the official Algerian news agency said. That means that Flight 5017 had been missing for hours before the news was made public."
I already am terrified of flying, and these last few weeks have not helped at all.
Just saw this today.
http://investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/.
NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.
‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight recorder is in England and is being evaluated. What can come of this? May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is certainly shocking. Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation, but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes and
some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards,these are much smaller and round in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards. Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double aluminium skin and bent them outwards. That is to say, splinters from inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open rivets have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is exclusively in the cockpit area….
Armour-Piercing Ammunition. Russia has published radar data that a Ukranian SU 25 was close to MH 017. this corresponds with Spanish air traffic control that two Ukranian fighter aircraft were in direct contact with MH 017. Examine the weaponry of the SU 25: it is fitted out with a 30mm cannon Type GSch-302 /AO-17A, with 250 rounds of splintering exploding bullets on a belt – shrapnel rounds. The cockpit of MH 017 was hit from TWO sides, as there are entry and exit holes on the same side….’ Very compelling stuff, is it not?
‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a surface to air defense missile” .
This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany” (Thursday edition). Had splinters from a surface to air missile hit the plane, it would have immediately caught fire, argues the NVA
anti-aircraft missile specialist. His reasoning is because of the “enormous frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating the fuselage. A single splinter contains the same kinetic energy as a 40-ton freight car hitting the buffers at 60 kilometers per hour.” In the case of the Malaysian Boeing, scattered fires had broken out after the impact with the ground, because hot debris from the aircraft had come in contact with combustible materials.
Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology, he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany and taught at the Military Academy in the field of anti-aircraft missile troops.’
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ds-NGxw20xE/U9bE-COl-_I/AAAAAAAAaUE/QEnG9LVvHLo/s1600/High+Res+MH17.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I7s6ER4PplI/U9bQClYJ8WI/AAAAAAAAaUU/ERKhXtXqx8g/s1600/bullet+holes.png
Another article with some good evaluation of the German guys' explanations.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/07/calling-all-munitions-and-fighter-plane.html
Six Questions
Is the MH17 damage consistent with either a buk or an air-to-air attack?
Does the damage assessment favor one type of attack vs. the other?
Could a Buk reasonably have only hit the cockpit?
Could multiple Buks be in play to cause both input and exit holes as show?
If so, could multiple Buks have only hit the cockpit?
Could the flechettes (dart-like or ball bearing-like projectiles) launched when the buk exploded simply have traveled completely through the cockpit leaving both entry and exit holes?
Three Scenarios
If the damage is only (or primarily) consistent with an air-to-air attack, we have a new ballgame.
If the damage is consistent with either a Buk or an air-to-air attack, with roughly equal probability, we have not learned much.
If the answer to number 6 is yes, and the rest of the damage is also consistent with a Buk, and the damage is inconsistent with an air-to-air attack , then it is safe to rule out the latter.
This seems to havew fallen by the wayside in view of recent events.
MH17 Three Years Later: What Have We Learned?
Ralph S. Clem
July 18, 2017
If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough. -Einstein
Three years and a day ago, about noon local time, Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) pushed back from Gate G3 at Amsterdam’s Schiphol Airport en route to Kuala Lumpur. Just over three hours later, the aircraft — a Boeing 777-200 — crashed in a rural area of eastern Ukraine, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board. Three years later, the public — not to mention the families of the dead — ought to have definitive answers to two key questions: What physically caused MH17 to crash? And, who was responsible?
However, what followed the immediate tragedy is one of the most convoluted attempts in recent memory to attribute causation and responsibility in a major international incident. The complexity of the forensic examinations and criminal investigations into the crash has been daunting. As a result, official results have come out in drips and drabs over the course of months and years. Indeed, the final report from the authorities regarding criminal charges against the perpetrators is still pending as the investigators seek to interview all possible witnesses and analyze thousands of evidentiary items.
Further, Russia, an interested state actor, mounted a massive disinformation media campaign to discredit official reports and to impede investigations. From the beginning, the Russian government has sought to deny and obfuscate its own complicity in the deaths of nearly 300 innocent people. Had Moscow not undertaken such an obstructionist strategy, the investigations would no doubt have progressed more quickly, and the results would have been more universally accepted.
Thankfully, citizen journalists and civil society analysts, such as Bellingcat, helped mitigate these problems. They assiduously compiled detailed evidence from a variety of social media and other unofficial sources, making major contributions to the effort to determine what actually happened to MH17. This experience is the latest and most significant example of how publicly-sourced information enables greater transparency in such matters, especially when governments refuse to release relevant data out of concerns for protecting sources and methods.
By reviewing the official and publicly-sourced evidence now available — and despite the Russians’ best efforts at obfuscation — we do now know with certainty the answers to our two questions.
MH17 on July 17: The Basics
Departing Schiphol, MH17 climbed to an altitude of 33,000 ft on a route that took it over Germany, Poland, and then into Ukrainian airspace. The aircraft followed standard civil aviation flight routes and was under continuous air traffic control throughout, being acquired in sequence by successive radar tracking stations until it reached the tracking station in Dnipropetrovsk (known as Dnipro Radar), which exercises radar control over southeastern Ukraine, and which established radio contact with MH17.
After that initial contact, and following a series of routine exchanges of information over 27 minutes, controllers lost radio and then radar contact with the aircraft. A series of increasingly urgent attempts to regain radio contact with the aircraft were unanswered. Dnipro Radar contacted the adjacent Rostov tracking station, which handles air traffic in southwestern Russian airspace — through which MH17 was programmed to fly next — for assistance, but Rostov was also unable to locate or contact the aircraft. Dnipro Radar requested a nearby Singapore Airlines flight to visually acquire MH17, and check their onboard collision avoidance system for any sign of the missing aircraft, also to no avail.
The worst possible explanation for MH17’s disappearance from air traffic control radar became clear soon enough, as dozens of images of aircraft debris, body parts, and personal belongings of passengers began appearing on social media almost immediately after MH17 hit the ground. These 298 victims had found themselves among the casualties of ongoing armed hostilities between Ukraine and Russia.
The MH17 crash site was in an area of eastern Ukraine known as the Donbas, where active fighting was (and still is) underway in a conflict that had rapidly escalated from civil unrest in March 2014, to full-scale combat by July. The Russian government, which backs local separatist militias and provides them with arms, advisors, and paramilitary fighters, had already intervened directly in the conflict (although Moscow steadfastly denies this) and was steadily upping the ante in terms of its support both in men and more sophisticated weaponry.
The Official Investigations
As the full scope of the tragedy became clear through international mainstream media, calls for an urgent investigation followed from European and other leaders. On July 21, the U.N. Security Council unanimously passed Resolution 2166, which, among other things, “[s]upport[ed] efforts to establish a full, thorough, and independent international investigation into the incident in accordance with international civil aviation guidelines.”
Nowhere was the grief and anger more intense than in the Netherlands, which had 193 of its nationals on the flight. Under international civil aviation regulations, Ukraine had primary jurisdiction for the MH17 crash, which it delegated to the Dutch Safety Board — the Dutch civil authority for safety investigations — on July 23. The board’s mandate was to determine the cause of the accident, but not to attribute blame to any party. The essential documents that were published by the Dutch Safety Board are its preliminary report (September 2014) and final report (October 2015). In August 2014, the Netherlands took the lead in forming the Joint Investigation Team tasked with conducting a criminal inquiry into the shooting down of MH17 in order to “arrive at conclusive and convincing evidence that will stand firm in court.”
The Joint Investigation Team issued its interim report in September 2016, but its final report is still pending until all witnesses can be interviewed, all possible evidence examined, and individual suspects identified. All of these reporting agencies, by design, operated independently. Their investigations overlap, allowing crosschecking and confirmation of most findings.
Well Inside the Frag Envelope
Although the Dutch Safety Board team faced serious challenges in getting to the crash site (which was in contested territory and largely unsecured), investigators were able to obtain the aircraft’s cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, as well as photographs of sections of the fuselage (the aircraft had broken up in midair, and the wreckage was scattered over some 50 square kilometers). In its preliminary report, the Dutch Safety Board stated that analysis of the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder confirmed the radio transcript from the Dnipro Radar station, which indicated that no distress calls were made. Further, there were no discussions among the flight crew or audible warnings in the cockpit, nor did systems data indicate problems with the aircraft.
However, the vital point is what the Dutch Safety Board found from scrutinizing the wreckage photos:
[T]he pattern of damage observed in the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft was consistent with the damage that would be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from outside.
In other words, pending more detailed analysis, the Dutch Safety Board began to focus on MH17 having been shot down, ruling out an onboard bomb explosion or other causes originating inside the aircraft. The question became: shot down by what?
Initial reporting from official sources, including the U.S. government, indicated that a surface-to-air missile was responsible for bringing down MH17, but it would take another 13 months for the forensic evidence to establish that as fact. During that period, the Dutch Safety Board painstakingly collected parts of the aircraft and transported them to the Netherlands for reconstruction and forensic analysis. They also conducted numerous ballistics simulations and ran computer models of possible missile trajectories to evaluate likely launch points.
Given MH17’s flight parameters and the extent of destruction done to the aircraft, investigators were able to rule out two of the three possible missile types (air-to-air or short range surface-to-air) that could have brought the aircraft down, or air-to-air cannon fire. This left only the third option, a powerful surface-to-air missile that incorporated both a large warhead and a high-altitude capability.
By analyzing hundreds of fragments recovered from the aircraft and bodies of the flight crew (120 fragments were found in the first officer’s body alone), the Dutch Safety Board identified the warhead as a 9N314M — a type compatible with only one model of SAM: the Russian-manufactured 9M38/9M38M1 “Buk” (NATO designation SA-11 Gadfly). Small pieces of metal identifiable as parts of a Buk missile were found in the vicinity of the crash and paint samples from those matched small foreign metal objects found in the aircraft wreckage.
Location, Location, Location: It Really Does Matter
With the cause of the aircraft’s destruction established as a surface-to-air missile, the next task was to determine the launch site. Given that the front lines between Ukrainian government and separatist forces at that time were fluid, the launch site would likely reveal the perpetrator. The Dutch Safety Board proposed a geographic area for further investigation, but — because it was not responsible for assigning blame — it did not pursue the point further.
However, the Joint Investigation Team was tasked to assign blame, and they did so in their interim report in September 2016. After confirming the Dutch Safety Board findings indicting a Buk 9M38 series SAM, the Joint Investigation Team produced evidence showing that the missile in question was launched from a field just outside the settlement of Pervomaiskiy — an area controlled by the pro-Russian separatists on the date in question.
In a series of animations, the Joint Investigation Team explained how it geolocated and recorded telephone conversations among separatist commanders who had requested that type of missile to counter air attacks by the Ukrainian Air Force. They also explained how telephone intercepts and geolocated photos and videos revealed the route taken by the transporter carrying the missile to the launch site on July 17.
By comparing time-sequenced satellite images, testimony of eyewitnesses, and photos of the missile’s smoke plume, the team determined precisely where the launch site was (including a patch of scorched farmland caused by the missile launch blast). Finally, they tracked the same missile transporter-launcher vehicle crossing back into Russia on July 18 — and this is important — with one fewer missile than it had onboard when it entered Ukraine. As convincing as the Joint Investigation Team report was, the Russian government objected strongly to the findings and launched a major effort to counter them.
The Russian Disinformation Campaign
One must admire the agility and creativity with which Russia’s state-owned media and official information outlets are able to generate story-lines supportive of government positions. On no occasion has Russia’s ability to spin information been on better display than during the MH17 crisis. Within hours of the crash, a variety of Russian sources — both government controlled and oligarch-sponsored freelancers — circulated various theories of the MH17 crash that deflected attention from Russian complicity. Online, trolls and bots piled on to narratives that served Kremlin interests.
In an impressive display of disinformation — just 4 days after MH17 was shot down — Russia’s Ministry of Defense held a briefing replete with convincing graphics and satellite imagery. Here, senior military officers presented two different scenarios that assigned blame to the Ukrainian military. One of these scenarios involved a Ukrainian missile, and the other a Ukrainian aircraft. Notwithstanding the fact that only one of these could have been true — and that both were later definitively debunked — the “evidence” quickly circulated through social media.
Then, in October 2015, the Russian defense firm Almaz-Antey — which produced the type of missile used to bring down MH17 — organized a press conference to demonstrate that investigators had misidentified the warhead, claiming that the “actual” warhead was no longer in Russia’s arsenal, but was in Ukraine’s.
Despite the fact that Russia was an official party to the investigation, Moscow denounced the Dutch Safety Board’s final report. Finally, on September 26, 2016, the Russian Ministry of Defense held another press conference at which Russian officials dismissed their own July 2014 findings blaming Ukraine. Instead, they alluded to newly-discovered radar data that ruled out any missile launch from separatist-controlled territory. These data, after a long delay, were eventually turned over to the Joint Investigation Team, but not in an internationally recognized format. As such, their evidentiary value was nil. This gambit is consistent with the obstructionist approach adopted by the Russians from the outset.
The Citizen Techies
I wrote previously in War on the Rocks about the extraordinary growth and technical sophistication of public-sourced information on matters of national security. In my article, I pointed out that this new type of data might, with appropriate caution, better illuminate events in crisis situations. This rapidly expanding capability owes especially to burgeoning internet and social media connectivity — both in terms of collection and dissemination — and the growing ability to geo-locate events or things via GPS.
The much greater resolution and coverage of commercial satellite imagery and the ubiquity of smartphones capable of shooting video have also added vast amounts of publicly accessible information. In the case of MH17, this information was synthesized almost immediately, providing a fairly informed view of the basic outlines of what happened within a day of the event.
By employing digital forensic tools, and by putting in thousands of hours of painstaking work to verify the authenticity of collected photos and arcane but important details, crucial evidence was brought to bear on key aspects of the search for answers to the MH17 puzzle.
The focus of publicly-sourced research on MH17 has been primarily on the provenance of the suspect missile (now known to be the Russian Army’s 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade). Using publicly-sourced intelligence from social media, analysts were able to document the journey of the specific missile transporter-launcher vehicle from its base near Kursk, Russia, to eastern Ukraine, and then back to Russia. Likewise, investigating possible missile launch sites — including the attempt by Almaz-Antey to alter its own original proposed launch area to another that conformed to the Russian government’s changing storyline — complemented the official findings.
The work of the amateur analysts, especially those at Bellingcat, has been crucial in exposing the misdeeds that resulted in the deaths of 298 people aboard MH17. Indeed, over the last three years, publicly-sourced intelligence has matured to the point that the Dutch used it in the investigations. Further, the fact that the Russian government made such an overt effort to disparage their analysis — unsuccessfully, I might add — further underscores the effectiveness of publicly-sourced information.
Three Years Later
On July 29,, 2015, just over a year after the MH17 was shot down, the government of Malaysia brought a resolution to the U.N. Security Council seeking to establish an international tribunal that would prosecute those responsible for the act. Not surprisingly, Russia, a permanent member of the Council, vetoed the resolution. Two years after that veto, on July 5, 2017, the Dutch Foreign Ministry announced that it would try in Dutch courts any suspects identified by the Joint Investigation Team. This is a tall order, given that Russia will not extradite its citizens. Additionally, any suspects in the separatist regions of Ukraine remain outside the remit of the Ukrainian government, at present.
However, we do not need to wait for the trials of particular suspects to answer the two big questions at the heart of the matter. First, it was the detonation of the warhead on a Russian-made missile that caused MH17 to crash. Second, that particular missile was supplied by the Russian military to its separatist clients in eastern Ukraine, making the Russian state partially responsible for the deaths of those 298 people. That missile was launched from territory controlled by the separatists, making them also responsible. Other contributing factors, such as the failure of the Ukrainian government to close its airspace over the contested eastern regions and the lack of specific threat information to civilian airlines require corrective action, but are not the proximate causes of this disaster.
Notwithstanding the many and varied attempts by Moscow to cloud the MH17 matter through dissimulating tactics, it defies common sense that the Russian leadership was not culpable. Their failure to acknowledge complicity is fully in keeping with their recent behavior.
To deal with such situations, the United States and other democratic governments must be prepared to employ their full range of investigative powers (as the Dutch certainly did), engaging more fully with open-source citizen analysts to achieve the level of transparency that the public deserves.
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/mh17-three-years-later-what-have-we-learned/
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-18-17, 19:50
How many high-performance (non MANPAD) SA missiles were launched in the war? That is the part that is missing in the whole to me is the 'Why'- as in this happened in the context of what was going on. Was this a common thing? Was the launch just a complete FU?
We got the "Why" in the shoot down of the KAL007 and I think it helped to frame the event.
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