View Full Version : Interesting article by Army SOF on MK18 use
Tacti-square
07-19-14, 23:25
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbinesbr-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-ii/
Very interesting read. It basically covers the modern warfighter's trend toward shorter barrels, slicker hand guards and suppressors. After rereading all the benefits of 10.5 inch barrel, the DT MDR-C is looking even more appealing.
That article just made me go from six to midnight.
So, what’s changed my mind? Simple: SureFire suppressors!... I personally didn’t care for the KAC can (muzzle can, i.e., silencer/sound suppressor). The reason: shooting. I found there is an annoying amount of gas back-blast from the chamber area, and being a lefty, this goes right into my face while shooting.
With the Surefire SOCOM556-RC can, there’s no real noticeable gas-blast increase. Additionally the round count that the SureFire can is rated to take is super high, so you can train with it and not worry about degrading its capability prior to using it on missions.
I've shot suppressed once and the gas blow back was horrible, as a lefty. I decided it just wasn't worth it. Shooting suppressed wasn't fun for me.
MorphCross
07-20-14, 00:06
While an interesting read, the benefits of this system specifically pertained to the MK18 Mod 1 package, not to what currently counts as a concept rifle a company wants to get into production. Each person who was using their MK18 or their older M4 platform had their buttstock swapped out to their preference and set at a variety of positions as well as having different pistol grips with different grip angles for more comfort and control in the package of choice. Also the slicker hand guards on those rifles still had the required accessories such as lights, lasers, and vfgs. The Surefire SOCOM suppressor sounds like a fantastic design, however it should be noted that the KAC suppressor is a one and a half decade old design. We know that Knights has not been resting on their laurels (no forward thinking company would). It would be interesting to compare a modern KAC suppressor to the Surefire SOCOM to see if the newer Knights design stacks up.
And let’s face facts: Even with the best long-range 5.56mm ammo (MK262 77gr.) and a 18-inch barrel (the now retired Special Purpose Rifle MK12) although you could reach out to 750 meters with that weapon/ammo combo platform, unless you achieved a head shot, the 5.56 round (5.56x45mm NATO) is pretty anemic in terms of one shot stopping power.
Why is one shot stopping power important when the enemy is 700 yards away?
scoutchris
07-20-14, 01:57
MOD EDIT
The fella you're talking to fulfills or has fulfilled a similar role, and has his own grounds for his opinion.
If you have specific questions as to why he holds the opinion he does, it might be a better idea (on turf where the only real decision you have to make is whether or not to post, NOT who does or does not rate a SME tag....) to ASK those questions. Particularly since he'd likely answer them...
Spewing invective in a fit of pique, if you simply must have the catharsis, is perhaps better left to PM or email to the individual.
Why is one shot stopping power important when the enemy is 700 yards away?
It's kind of facetious, you don't get guaranteed one shot stops from 556 even at 3 yards. Not even with .308 at 3 yards.
So I don't see the problem.
MorphCross
07-20-14, 03:00
It's kind of facetious, you don't get guaranteed one shot stops from 556 even at 3 yards. Not even with .308 at 3 yards.
So I don't see the problem.
Well, stopping power in general terms is a myth, however there are numerous cases of one shot stops with a variety of calibers. The Brit who took out a Machine gunner and his backup with a .338 Lapua at outstanding distances being off the top of my head. I sometimes wonder if when a person isn't expecting the shot and doesn't ever hear it, does he just bleed out or is it more along the lines of a marionette getting its strings cut.
Also, I wouldn't consider the comment facetious, the author of the article may have had first hand experience with this.
Well, stopping power in general terms is a myth, however there are numerous cases of one shot stops with a variety of calibers. The Brit who took out a Machine gunner and his backup with a .338 Lapua at outstanding distances being off the top of my head. I sometimes wonder if when a person isn't expecting the shot and doesn't ever hear it, does he just bleed out or is it more along the lines of a marionette getting its strings cut.
Also, I wouldn't consider the comment facetious, the author of the article may have had first hand experience with this.
Besides a CNS hit, you won't get a physiological one shot stop with any reasonable round. An example of an unreasonable round would be 30x113mm or 30x173mm.
Even a lung or heart shot can give a person with enough adrenaline or drugs enough time to return fire a few times.
MorphCross
07-20-14, 03:26
Besides a CNS hit, you won't get a physiological one shot stop with any reasonable round. An example of an unreasonable round would be 30x113mm or 30x173mm.
Even a lung or heart shot can give a person with enough adrenaline or drugs enough time to return fire a few times.
But in the case of said 700 yard single shot, where does he return fire to? Believe me, i'm with you on close up defensive encounters, but when you combine suppression and a single supersonic crack... My only two guesses would be bleed out without medical aid and if it takes them a while to realize "Oh, hey what's this blood doing underneath me" it may be too late, or a quick follow up shot that speeds up the kill, in which case the one shot stop is disproved.
He is a vetted member and should he decide to divulge his background that's his prerogative. But, it's also not for you to question. He made several valid points and you can attempt to refute them if you would like.
MOD EDIT
The fella you're talking to fulfills or has fulfilled a similar role, and has his own grounds for his opinion.
If you have specific questions as to why he holds the opinion he does, it might be a better idea (on turf where the only real decision you have to make is whether or not to post, NOT who does or does not rate a SME tag....) to ASK those questions. Particularly since he'd likely answer them...
Spewing invective in a fit of pique, if you simply must have the catharsis, is perhaps better left to PM or email to the individual.
justin_247
07-20-14, 09:18
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbinesbr-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-ii/
Very interesting read. It basically covers the modern warfighter's trend toward shorter barrels, slicker hand guards and suppressors. After rereading a the benefits of a 10.5 inch barrel, the DT MDR-C is looking even more appealing.
David Crane is a joke. I would take everything he says with a serious grain of salt, since he's basically along the same lines as "Nut'n Fancy." For years he was hawking FERFRANS' weapons as the solution to all of the supposed M-4 woes.
Even his own bio is B.S. Supposedly, his site is "the authoritative source of news and information" on military small arms, according to him.
Nocalsocal
07-20-14, 09:55
David Crane didn't author the article he only posted it. It was written by Jeff Gurwitch a supposed deployed SF.
justin_247
07-20-14, 10:12
David Crane didn't author the article he only posted it. It was written by Jeff Gurwitch a supposed deployed SF.
I see. My bad.
Although my criticism of David Crane still stands.
And this guy is on an ODA? What the hell is his billet?
It's interesting that he chose to impale himself on the collective dicks of all his favorite manufacturers rather than focus on the bigger picture or the tactics. I'm all about good training and having the best equipment for the job, but there aren't a lot of ways to justify that much focus on what should be a very small part of his job. But who am I to judge.
Some of what the author used to justify his issues with certain gear items sound like the kind of stupid shit you hear at a gun show.
Well, the response to the article makes me apprehensive about trusting his suppressor claims. Any lefties that can comment about current production suppressors and gas blow back?
ClearedHot
07-20-14, 12:29
The drop #'s alone do not tell the tale of massive lose of efficacy on targets, but posting RemV/RemE would be to much hassle. When you start having poor effects by defacto throwing 22magnums.. doesn't make sense.
100m zero
14.5" m855 200m-1.6", 300-5", 400-8" , 500- 13", 600-18", 700-25", 800-32", 900-42",1000-52"
10" m855 62gr 200m-2", 300-6", 400m-10", 500-16", 600-23", 700-31", 800-41", 900-52", 1000-65"
14.5" 77gr 200m-.6mil/2", 300-1.5/6", 400-2.7/10", 500-4.0/15", 600-5.6/20", 700-7.5/27", 800-9.6/35", 900-12.2/44", 1000-15.2/55"
10.3" 77gr 200m- .8mil/3", 300-2.0/7", 400-3.4/12", 500-5/18", 600-7.0/25", 700-9.3/34", 800-12.0/43", 900-15.2/55", 1000-18.7/68"
drops from actual crony data with a nominal 4k elevation
Solid info. Is Mk262 still the go to ammo for the 10" barrels or has the Brown Tip stuff replaced it?
StevieJ309
07-20-14, 12:37
The author is a member on TOS. Maybe he'll chime in here.
Tacti-square
07-20-14, 13:00
The author is a member on TOS. Maybe he'll chime in here.
Would you mind directing him here if you haven't already done so? I'd be curious to hear his responses.
StevieJ309
07-20-14, 13:04
Would you mind directing him here if you haven't already done so? I'd be curious to hear his responses.
I sent him an IM after I posted that.
Interesting article. I followed the link to the "Part I" article as well, and it was an interesting read. I have several differences of opinion, but generally, to each their own.
That said, this line had me going "what the f@ck?"
The rifle is seen more as a personal defense weapon (PDW) than as a primary tool to engage the enemy.
I'll admit, I'm not a SF-cool guy, just a lowly infantryman, but I've never heard that theory put out by anybody... well, besides POGs and the like. Maybe SF-land is way different, but in my world, even with Humvees, Bradleys, Abrams, MRAPs, and air support, the rifle/carbine is always your primary weapon. Guess that's the difference between the Grunts and the cool guys.
As the Author of the article, I understand arguing for using a shorty rifle like the MK18 is almost the same as bringing up the Weaver vs Isosceles or Glock vs M1911. I am putting myself in a almost no win situation. 2-3 years ago if you had asked me the best M4 set up for combat I would have said hands down 14.5 barrel at least for length. I too would have looked at running a shorty in Afghanistan as silly.
The 1st half of the article is my attempt at explaining why the shorty is so popular based on how I see it being employed over here. I truly understand why some will not agree and ballistic wise there are many good valid reasons why the MK18 may not be the best choice, but bottom line it is a very popular set up here. Go to any thread about SOF or troops in combat on here, AR15.com and other sites and you might notice at least more than half the pics of guys that are SOF are running shorties.
Now to address some of your points here,
By one shot stop I meant the 5.56 in general, article wise I know it looks like meant at 700 meters. The point I was trying to make was that unless you got a head shot, 5.56 is overall not the best man stopper at any range to begin with (as many of you might know from your own 1st hand experience).
The photos of the rifles are all in use (even the one with the Elcan that is mounted really far back to the rear) Yes I know its way too far back, personally I would not run it that far but I have used many Elcans and many have some proper eye relief issues. So maybe this guy has issues or he just like it that way.
The rails it was pointed out some may not be drop safe tested and deemed flimsy for combat use its what some guys are running.
For this article every time I saw a interesting rifle set up I asked the owner if I could get a picture of it. Are all MK18's and M4's being modified by the guys here no, but at least half have some sort of non issued accessory, the intent was to capture what items are popular with the guys here. And maybe a little of why they like it.
With any piece I write I expect disagreement and for some to be critical, that's perfectly acceptable. Within the shooting community many (myself included) justifiably base their rifle and gear selection on their job, training and combat experiences. What might work for one or many may not work for you that's fine, you need to run what does work for you.
My intent was to hopefully show off some popular shooting accessories, and try answer the why behind the popularity of the MK18 from my perspective.
Thanks everyone for taking the time checking it out and the feed back-------- JG.
Failure2Stop
07-20-14, 15:17
Gotta say, I'm happily surprised by the quality of the response.
Well played.
^^^ Just thinking exactly that...very well played.
platoonDaddy
07-20-14, 15:42
The rifle is seen more as a personal defense weapon (PDW) than as a primary tool to engage the enemy.
I am also confused about that comment.
I am also confused about that comment.
I know of some that used to carry only 3 extra M4 mags because if they ever got into it heavy, they'd just call CAS. Maybe something along those lines?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Eurodriver
07-20-14, 17:01
I'm glad M4C is still M4C. I thought this thread was going to result in a bunch of cheerleaders backing the latest and greatest video game guns, given the suggestion made in the OP.
Edit: Beat by F2S.
Got a chance to read the article. Like Dano, the full STOP moment came when the "game changer" mentioned was the SF suppressor.
Looking at some of the gun setups were, well like reading TOS. BAD lever?? Really?? I think what is hard for Civy's to believe/understand is that not all HSLD types are "gun guys." In fact, very few are. So when we see articles like this, we have to somewhat scrutinize what is being said.
C4
Nocalsocal
07-20-14, 17:58
I love how a SOF member's load out can cause such a stir to a community of "gun guys". It's apparent that constant training and actual real world use can offset supposed deficiencies in gear selection. It's also eye opening, to me at least, that some hard core fellas are willing to duke it out and risk their lives as well as their buddies lives on equipment this forum has deemed "not worthy".
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Failure2Stop
07-20-14, 18:04
I love how a SOF member's load out can cause such a stir to a community of "gun guys". It's apparent that constant training and actual real world use can offset supposed deficiencies in gear selection. It's also eye opening, to me at least, that some hard core fellas are willing to duke it out and risk their lives as well as their buddies lives on equipment this forum has deemed "not worthy".
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I think you missed the point of the discussion here.
I am also confused about that comment.
I don't think it's strange att all. Are there times when the carbine is the only weapon to be had? Of course. But then again if I got into a firefight and had the option I'd prefer to shoot at the enemy with the M240 or an M2 rather then a bunch of carbines. A regular infantry platoon has quite some firepower within it's own organization even without calling in mortar or CAS imo. I think this is even more true for regular infantry then SF. The regular infantry squad I saw when deployed sacrificed mobility by bringong more firepower then a dismounted SF patrol. If you take vehicles into the mix it can be another story.
turnburglar
07-20-14, 18:29
The author outlined why the m4 isn't the "primary" weapon. Bigger and better weapons proliferate the battle field. Putting it into car terms: it's like using a 1/2" ratchet when an impact gun is available. Sure you CAN put tires on with a ratchet..... But every single person would choose an impact.
Would I rather shoot, move, and communicate to destroy the Taliban? Or have a casual conversation with a pilot?
On my deployment we definitely used air power as much as possible to avoid casualties.
"warheads to foreheads" is the name of the game.
I liked the article. Im not agreeing with or disagreeing with anything the author says. He states that
he sees interesting setups through his travels "over there" and he documents it. He states what he sees happening and what is popular with the men he serves along side. First hand expirience, and documentation from the field is what interests me. To me, this is no different than one of the other discussions a couple days back that had pics of men in Viet Nam with tricked out carbines, scopes on carry handles, setups that if someone came to the range with would get laughed at today. Yet they went to war, and did their jobs with what others would call inferior weapons. The setups the author depics is the same kind of thing, documenting men with weapons doing incredible things. Maybe some on this forum have weapons of better quality or ideas of what a better weapon is, but the ones pictured are their and are used everyday. I dont care if the one carbine has a Troy rail or a UTG bipod or whatever. What I learned is that items I thought were less than perfect are still viable even on todays battlefield. I thank the author for his opinions and first person views, and for the documentation of what is being used by US soldiers. The historian in me loves this stuff. Oh and to the comment Ive heard many times on diffent sites " not all SF types are gun guys", maybe its better they are not, for if they were nothing would get done until everyone had a KAC this, DD that, BCM this, Colt this and the gun could shoot 1,000 yards and weight 4.45 pounds with a loaded mag.
I love how a SOF member's load out can cause such a stir to a community of "gun guys". It's apparent that constant training and actual real world use can offset supposed deficiencies in gear selection. It's also eye opening, to me at least, that some hard core fellas are willing to duke it out and risk their lives as well as their buddies lives on equipment this forum has deemed "not worthy".
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Ignorance is bliss? A good shooter with great tactics will make good use of Hi-Point. With that said, they are far better options available. I believe that is the point that you missed.
C4
I was surprised to see so many of those rifles not having BUIS. I kind of figured that they would be mandatory or at least highly recommended.
I was surprised to see so many of those rifles not having BUIS. I kind of figured that they would be mandatory or at least highly recommended.
From discussions with guys that actively train the HSLD crowd, that is pretty normal to see. What is also normal to see are optics that are mounted too high to co-witness.
Some times "solutions" to problems leads to a balancing act of what is MOST important. In other words, how can I best put rounds on a threat without being seen or utilizing a piece of gear that will protect me from environmental issues.
C4
My only comment is when I read "No Easy Day" (which is about the extent of my special forces experiance:cool: ) he said he was equipped with both a 10.5" hk416 with eotech and 14.5 with 2.5x10 I believe.
He stated he used the 10.5" 99% of the time.
He seemed to have spent a lot of time kicking in doors though.
I'm dont quite get all the uproar. He acknowledged the inherent ballistic weakness of the shorter barrel and made and argument for why 10.5 are seen out there in wild despite it. Sure a lot of the pics are not of the best possible gear EVER.
Bottom line seems like different tools for different job.
Nocalsocal
07-20-14, 20:23
I didn't miss the point. Just an observation. I just thought that the guys on the tip of the spear would be using the stuff that we (or at least me) consider cutting edge, bomb proof equipment. No doubt there are better options but apparently the guys who roll with the author are either behind the times or satisfied with what they have. But like you said not all HSLD guys are "gun guys".
Failure2Stop
07-20-14, 20:59
I didn't miss the point. Just an observation. I just thought that the guys on the tip of the spear would be using the stuff that we (or at least me) consider cutting edge, bomb proof equipment. No doubt there are better options but apparently the guys who roll with the author are either behind the times or satisfied with what they have. But like you said not all HSLD guys are "gun guys".
Gotcha, guess I was applying an inference that you didn't intend.
No worries.
Tacti-square
07-21-14, 01:36
I'm glad M4C is still M4C. I thought this thread was going to result in a bunch of cheerleaders backing the latest and greatest video game guns, given the suggestion made in the OP.
Edit: Beat by F2S.
Forgive me; a new rifle design comes along that looks promising, and suddenly I'm not allowed to show enthusiasm for it unless it's been adopted by 20 countries? To my knowledge the MDR is not featured in any game. Sorry for being excited about a cool platform, guess I'll only watch SHOT coverage that's 5+ years old from now on.
MorphCross
07-21-14, 02:03
Forgive me; a new rifle design comes along that looks promising, and suddenly I'm not allowed to show enthusiasm for it unless it's been adopted by 20 countries? To my knowledge the MDR is not featured in any game. Sorry for being excited about a cool platform, guess I'll only watch SHOT coverage that's 5+ years old from now on.
We're not telling you not to be enthusiastic about an upcoming platform, you can feel however you want to feel about it. Just don't expect cheerleading from those of us who are skeptical about platforms that haven't reached any significant level of production especially if they lack vetting through testing in the military. We've seen what happened with the Masada, we've seen what happened with Kel-Tecs more recent designs, RobArm XCR could have, should have, would have. If the MDR end up being a commercial success, you can feel free to come on here and say "neener-neener-neener, I told you so" but until that time, respect our right to be skeptical.
Back to the originally scheduled program.
Eurodriver
07-21-14, 06:15
We're not telling you not to be enthusiastic about an upcoming platform, you can feel however you want to feel about it. Just don't expect cheerleading from those of us who are skeptical about platforms that haven't reached any significant level of production especially if they lack vetting through testing in the military. We've seen what happened with the Masada, we've seen what happened with Kel-Tecs more recent designs, RobArm XCR could have, should have, would have. If the MDR end up being a commercial success, you can feel free to come on here and say "neener-neener-neener, I told you so" but until that time, respect our right to be skeptical.
Back to the originally scheduled program.
Exactly. It wasn't meant to be a personal attack, Tacti-square.
Now I'm off to the Custom Build Form to see all of the Mk18 "clones" that look absolutely nothing like Mk18s.
Ha ha... yeah... to Dano's point... there are definitely some Match Homo rail/hand guards on some of those guns. They don't belong there for sure.
But the "game changer" bit is puzzling. I don't think SureFires cans make THAT much difference. I bet it's more of a combination of the limited set ups that the guy ran.
I've moved my same can from gun to gun and got more gassed out on some guns than others. There's more to it than this can is gassy and that one isn't. There's simply only so much gas you can reduce with any baffle stack and still make the can small enough to be functional.
My bet is the guy just got a nicer combo of parts and credited SureFire for the success.
Is it possible that some of those setups belong to ex-SOF guys, now contractors?
The author is talking about rifles in a war zone, modified by guys who spend far more time studying how to win battles than what is the best free float tube for the AR. We at home, have the the luxury of spending hours online to find just the right part and complain when it takes more than three or four days for the Man in the Brown Shorts to bring it to our door. Delivery service isn't as reliable in theater, accessories and parts aren't always available through approved channels, commanders often limit what can be used and on top of that, they also have to deal with ITAR.
It could be that the Surefire is a game changer, not because it's best choice, but it's good enough choice or finally available in enough quantities, that the advantages of using a short rifle are suddenly attractive. Some look at the rifles pictured in the article and see clown shoes. If authentic, and I have no reason to believe they are not, what we are really seeing the current American warfighter continuing the long held tradition of using worn out, less than ideal equipment to get the job done
Forgive me; a new rifle design comes along that looks promising, and suddenly I'm not allowed to show enthusiasm for it unless it's been adopted by 20 countries? To my knowledge the MDR is not featured in any game. Sorry for being excited about a cool platform, guess I'll only watch SHOT coverage that's 5+ years old from now on.
Sorry for the thread drift. But after talking to some of the guys at DT, the MDR concept is great but actually getting it to work has been a significant challenge.
The author is talking about rifles in a war zone, modified by guys who spend far more time studying how to win battles than what is the best free float tube for the AR.
Absolutely agreed. Many of the guys who really "do it" don't get bogged down in the gear obsessing that we do.
Reliability is by far the most aspect of a firearm.
If it works, there is little difference overall in what accessories you use.
Reliability is by far the most aspect of a firearm.
If it works, there is little difference overall in what accessories you use.
The stuff has to hold up. I don't want to put words in Dano's mouth, but some of those match gay tubes are designed for flitting around a bunch of barrels... not a war zone.
Emtothedee
07-21-14, 14:49
I didn't miss the point. Just an observation. I just thought that the guys on the tip of the spear would be using the stuff that we (or at least me) consider cutting edge, bomb proof equipment. No doubt there are better options but apparently the guys who roll with the author are either behind the times or satisfied with what they have. But like you said not all HSLD guys are "gun guys".
Ya i mean what are these HSLD guys doing not listening to all the freedom forum fighters and mall ninjas here on the internet forums. What are they thinking? I can't believe they are using gear that we civilians don't believe are the best option for them. What a bunch of idiots...
Ya i mean what are these HSLD guys doing not listening to all the freedom forum fighters and mall ninjas here on the internet forums. What are they thinking? I can't believe they are using gear that we civilians don't believe are the best option for them. What a bunch of idiots...
Make sure to take the time to read Dano's comments in this thread. He is a known SME and expert on gear/guns and deployment of such (read not a mall ninja).
C4
Emtothedee
07-21-14, 15:49
Make sure to take the time to read Dano's comments in this thread. He is a known SME and expert on gear/guns and deployment of such (read not a mall ninja).
C4
I wasn't referring to what dano said. I respect what he says. It was purely sarcasm aimed at the comment i quoted.
I wasn't referring to what dano said. I respect what he says.
Gotcha. When you paint with a wide brush, it is hard to tell whom you are talking about.
If you disagree with what someone has said as not being factual, speak up.
C4
Commanders do not have the deal with ITAR. The military is exempt from ITAR. Individual soldiers modifying weapons and buying stuff to send overseas is not covered. Most of the Special Operations guys I dealt with overseas brought components with them or the weapons were already modded.
The author is talking about rifles in a war zone, modified by guys who spend far more time studying how to win battles than what is the best free float tube for the AR. We at home, have the the luxury of spending hours online to find just the right part and complain when it takes more than three or four days for the Man in the Brown Shorts to bring it to our door. Delivery service isn't as reliable in theater, accessories and parts aren't always available through approved channels, commanders often limit what can be used and on top of that, they also have to deal with ITAR.
It could be that the Surefire is a game changer, not because it's best choice, but it's good enough choice or finally available in enough quantities, that the advantages of using a short rifle are suddenly attractive. Some look at the rifles pictured in the article and see clown shoes. If authentic, and I have no reason to believe they are not, what we are really seeing the current American warfighter continuing the long held tradition of using worn out, less than ideal equipment to get the job done
scoutchris
07-21-14, 19:05
Didn't ask for nor self anoint "SME" However do have a couple merit badges people atb enamored with. Most willing to play a pick up game with all comers on a square range, but critical judgements based on the 8+ yrs deployed on the two way... and formal RDTE in between.
Opins like arse holes and good luck separating the wheat from chaff w/o relevant experience. I do not feel that article is demonstrative of sound gear, ideas, or representative of current TTP realities in the war zone, or shows how solid operators set up their equipment.
The persons I know with ridiculous amounts of experience use a 14.5 or 16" carbine with a vari-opic with mil-based holdovers... for increased lethality, smaller CEP at unk ranges, smashing baddies at distance with clip on VAS and being relevant when the sun comes up.
Most walk around with their shorties cause it looks cool on the FOB and is more convenient. A discerning eye can sort someone out in seconds... by the manner of their equipment.
The only rail systems I have seen pass drop & torque testing are DD, KAC, Geisselle, Remington MilGroup and OEM HK. I have seen three pictured in that article fail.
The "m4A1" with "3-8" optic picture is clearly not an M4a1. None standard upper slapped on gov lower. Note Noveske marked upper receiver, thick fluted barrel and length. The optic atb POS luepy mk4 with extended target turrets. The MK6 3-18, or NF 2.5-10x are much, much better optics.
Picturing a carbine, actually a Larue upper, "set up for the long range fight"...1) the optic is riding too far back for proper eye relief 2) the top rail has light/laser switch on it preventing use of a clip on 3) the laser at 12 will prevent clip on use 4) riding a legacy KAC suppressor is odd &/or ill informed. The old KAC CQD suppressors have massive and inconsistent zero shift. Do note they are ridiculously robust and can even be run on a MK46/SAW. If issued a surefire it is a much better choice for precision. Do note, the new KAC cans with twist collar have shown reliable and repeatable zero shift.
Having an insight WML blocking the illum of the LA-5(ATPIAL) is odd.
Elcan 1-4x (zero shifting POS) reticle based on 14.5" m855. Odd choice IMO for a shorty. The newer (and even bulkier) 1.5-6x Elcan ATB better but nor issue free
The drop #'s alone do not tell the tale of massive lose of efficacy on targets, but posting RemV/RemE would be to much hassle. When you start having poor effects by defacto throwing 22magnums.. doesn't make sense.
100m zero
14.5" m855 200m-1.6", 300-5", 400-8" , 500- 13", 600-18", 700-25", 800-32", 900-42",1000-52"
10" m855 62gr 200m-2", 300-6", 400m-10", 500-16", 600-23", 700-31", 800-41", 900-52", 1000-65"
14.5" 77gr 200m-.6mil/2", 300-1.5/6", 400-2.7/10", 500-4.0/15", 600-5.6/20", 700-7.5/27", 800-9.6/35", 900-12.2/44", 1000-15.2/55"
10.3" 77gr 200m- .8mil/3", 300-2.0/7", 400-3.4/12", 500-5/18", 600-7.0/25", 700-9.3/34", 800-12.0/43", 900-15.2/55", 1000-18.7/68"
drops from actual crony data with a nominal 4k elevation
Have the best day ever!
I guess what it comes down to is the fact that it doesn't matter what you think about the current realities and TTP's of the current warzone. You're not there. You have absolutely no clue what this guy is seeing on a day to day basis. You're in America on a cell phone or keyboard. He's taking pictures of weapons at his feet in a war zone. The fact that he is still typing means he's doing something right. I have a few badges and patches myself, even got the tattoos and a few ASI's. It really doesn't mean anything. The face that I spent a few years in Iraq doesn't make me I can even begin to fathom what is going on in the ever evolving battlefield where he is right now. The fact that you are judging someone's operational ability based upon their rail selection or where they place their accessories is pretty ridiculous. It's an immediate red flag to me. That's the whole point of SOF and SOCOM. It's the Indian. Maybe that's what works for him? Just because it doesn't pass your internet drop test it means he's less than solid soldier? That's absurd and I'm quite surprised I'm the only one to pick up on that.
I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.
I hope this doesn't get edited by a moderator, because it needs to be read and understood.
The stuff has to hold up. I don't want to put words in Dano's mouth, but some of those match gay tubes are designed for flitting around a bunch of barrels... not a war zone.
That's what I meant about reliability. Maybe should have also wrote "durability" to be more clear.
I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.
Good stuff. I have availed myself of the opportunities to speak with the SOF guys as to why they have their (specific) junk, why they wear it where and how they wear it, etc. I recognize that a veteran of a firefight is a veteran of a firefight, but I also recognize that they tend have more deployments with different missions and have developed a sense of what worked well vice what did not. Some ideas I adopted, some not, but all the points were valid and cogent.
Visibly pictured are High Drag Low Speed collages of crap not capable of 24/7 cycle of operations. SOCOM has approximately 66,000 assigned.... However, the number of people with breadth and depth of experience to really do things well, fast, in any condition.. only number in the hundreds. Lots of room for silly badges and clownshoes. Clearly demonstrated by altering robust and reliable issued gear to be cool and "special".
Which, not to get to off track, brings up the relevant question of exactly what is SOCOM?
What is the taxonomy of that 66,000 person group?
Seals, delta, intelligence, Air Force etc.
Commanders do not have the deal with ITAR. The military is exempt from ITAR. Individual soldiers modifying weapons and buying stuff to send overseas is not covered. Most of the Special Operations guys I dealt with overseas brought components with them or the weapons were already modded.
When I was talking about ITAR, I meant the soldiers trying to get stuff outside their regular supply channels
John_Burns
07-21-14, 21:13
I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.
I hope this doesn't get edited by a moderator, because it needs to be read and understood.
Maybe.
I have seen a lot of teen age girls texting while driving. Does that mean it is a safe and responsible activity?
Just because it worked once or twice or how ever many times does not mean good to go.
In at least two of the pictured setup the rails used were designed from the get go for ease of installation. Clamping to standard barrel nuts was the primary design consideration. I have used both of those rails and both rail designs were in no way as solid or as durable as something like the Geissele.
Mounting laser aiming devices on such rails is, simply, clownshoes.
scoutchris
07-21-14, 21:28
Here's Dano's reply to my PM asking him what his MOS was or what team he served with:
Post another PM from an SME and you're gone.
Failure2Stop
07-21-14, 21:33
I guess what it comes down to is the fact that it doesn't matter what you think about the current realities and TTP's of the current warzone. You're not there. You have absolutely no clue what this guy is seeing on a day to day basis. You're in America on a cell phone or keyboard. He's taking pictures of weapons at his feet in a war zone. The fact that he is still typing means he's doing something right. I have a few badges and patches myself, even got the tattoos and a few ASI's. It really doesn't mean anything. The face that I spent a few years in Iraq doesn't make me I can even begin to fathom what is going on in the ever evolving battlefield where he is right now. The fact that you are judging someone's operational ability based upon their rail selection or where they place their accessories is pretty ridiculous. It's an immediate red flag to me. That's the whole point of SOF and SOCOM. It's the Indian. Maybe that's what works for him? Just because it doesn't pass your internet drop test it means he's less than solid soldier? That's absurd and I'm quite surprised I'm the only one to pick up on that.
I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.
I hope this doesn't get edited by a moderator, because it needs to be read and understood.
Nope, not editing.
Just going say that the man that you are criticizing is one of those guys that earns his pay by being succinctly correct in this area.
You are free to disagree with his statements and opinions, but not with his character or integrity, just as others may and may not do with yours.
Very enjoyable discussion all around for a non-operator, gun enthusiast like me.
Cincinnatus
07-21-14, 21:54
May I make a Platoon analogy? We are all Charlie Sheen, green behind the ears, and Dano is Tom Berringer or Willem Dafoe telling us to leave that damn L-pattern flashlight off our gear; because he's been there and done a long damn time. The SOF guys running around with no place for NV or lasers are probably in nearly the same place as Sheen via experience. Not all SOF guys are Delta or Devgru; they have their rear echelon pogues with jump wings and scuba bubbles that like to show off supposedly high speed gear, but are NOT actual experts on jack or shit. Dano knows his stuff, and only a fool would not sit down and shut up when he speaks. (A fool hates correction, but a wise man listens to it.)
Tacti-square
07-21-14, 21:57
So glad that this was a productive thread. David Crane is in my opinion a bit of a nut (and uses WAY too many hyphens and parentheses), but occasionally he'll post a guest article that is worth reading. I would be very interested to know if anyone has seen teams or individuals utilizing shorties in non-mil calibers, most notably the .300 BLK. If the author in question is a proponent of suppressed MK18 builds in Afghanistan, wouldn't the next appropriate question be whether or not there are other, better cartridges with which to get the job done? I would assume the main barrier from conducting trials like this would be military logistics and restrictions, not to mention wide 5.56 availability. Still, the Blackout was designed for military use, and it would be nice to see a little more overseas shooting after almost a decade of production, if only the supersonic loads.
scoutchris
07-21-14, 21:58
May I make a Platoon analogy? We are all Charlie Sheen, green behind the ears, and Dano is Tom Berringer or Willem Dafoe telling us to leave that damn L-pattern flashlight off our gear; because he's been there and done a long damn time. The SOF guys running around with no place for NV or lasers are probably in nearly the same place as Sheen via experience. Not all SOF guys are Delta or Devgru; they have their rear echelon pogues with jump wings and scuba bubbles that like to show off supposedly high speed gear, but are NOT actual experts on jack or shit.
The guy he is insulting/questioning is a 23 year Special Forces veteran and current Team Sergeant... Pretty far stretch from Mr. Sheen.
John_Burns
07-21-14, 22:05
Removed
turnburglar
07-21-14, 22:08
Those guns definitely belonged to SOF.
Regular Army guns look like this.....
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/zturney/IMAG0431.jpg
justin_247
07-21-14, 22:12
Here's another article by the author:
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover/
As a civilian "gun guy" here are my thoughts on the article.
- I was surprised to see the Troy and Samson rails being used given their durability and mounting concerns.
- it's good to see keymod rails in the mix.
- It does sound plausible to me that a carbine becomes a "personal defense weapon" in the presence of heavy weapons on a team, in particular if vehicle mounted weapons are available to the team and if the team works around/with vehicles much of the time. In civilian terms, we might equate that to how concerned are you really with ballistics between your .45 and 9mm handguns when you're carrying an AR as primary.
- Some of the optics mounting seemed odd, the Elcans are mounted inconsistently with respect to eye relief. I've used an Elcan DR since 2009 on my main AR and I have no issues mounting one just in front front of a Troy BUIS even with the stock one click short of full out. Odd choice of a Lower end Leopold and odd mounting too.
- I have very very little time running suppressed guns but I did find the gas blowback to the face annoying - particularly on sustained bursts/strings - if the new surefire socom cans are better at this then legacy devices, then that's surely a plus.
- Finally I'm not sure why some of PEQs are mounted mid rail vs all way forward, I have seen people block the lasers with their hands/fingers and even splash them their white light heads when mounted anywhere but full up.
Anyway these are just my thoughts of a weekend commando/training junkie type guy.
Those setups are interesting to say the least. One thing for sure, there is only one "shorty" setup to rule them all.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/HenryThePanda/168332935-L-1.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/HenryThePanda/media/168332935-L-1.jpg.html)
scoutchris
07-21-14, 23:07
Removed
scoutchris
07-21-14, 23:14
Removed
Failure2Stop
07-21-14, 23:25
This is one of those times that members are either going to have to accept our vetting or move on.
The derail ends now.
Further disruption at this point cannot be permitted.
Please, no dog-piling, this has been addressed.
Tacti-square
07-21-14, 23:29
Now that the keyboard wang-measuring contest has ceased, does anyone have info on my .300 BLK inquiry?
Those guns definitely belonged to SOF.
Regular Army guns look like this.....
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/zturney/IMAG0431.jpg
OFF TOPIC...................................That is the best thing that I have seen in a long time, it is soooo true. :jester:
MorphCross
07-21-14, 23:39
Now that the keyboard wang-measuring contest has ceased, does anyone have info on my .300 BLK inquiry?
Non-Disclosure Agreements are funny things, some may know, but they may not be allowed to speak of it publically.
justin_247
07-21-14, 23:39
The only rail systems I have seen pass drop & torque testing are DD, KAC, Geisselle, Remington MilGroup and OEM HK. I have seen three pictured in that article fail.
Hey Dano, if you don't mind me asking, what all does the drop and torque test entail?
Also, what Remington rail was it that you saw tested?
Thanks.
John_Burns
07-21-14, 23:46
Removed
Fair Enough.
I quoted and or referred to a post that had been deleted and should have known better.
Stand corrected.
I can tell you that there are a lot of shooter that are not "gun guys". Most just use what they are given and make do. I have seen some great guys use some total crap...they thought that it looked cool and wanted to try it. I have never deployed without at least 2 upper that I built with me (one is always my Noveske). I have also never deployed with an upper that did not have several thousand rounds through it.
Thank you for the article Dano. I found it very informative and hope you continue to write articles for an average guy like me to be able to read and learn.
I have a dumb question, are soldiers in socom allowed to do whatever they want to their weapons? Or are there certain guide lines depending on their unit?
Thank you for the article Dano. I found it very informative and hope you continue to write articles for an average guy like me to be able to read and learn.
I have a dumb question, are soldiers in socom allowed to do whatever they want to their weapons? Or are there certain guide lines depending on their unit?
Dano didn't write the article, he provided comments based on his experiences on it. I won't answer your question since I only know hearsay.
ClearedHot
07-22-14, 07:26
Here's Dano's reply to my PM asking him what his MOS was or what team he served with:
This has Don Shipley written all over it.
The 5326 in his username should have been your first clue. More likely than not, you're not as switched on as you THINK you are. Might want to stay in your lane before calling out a vetted SME.
I remember a time when we respected our SME's and were appreciative of their participation here for our benefit. If the current trend continues, it won't be long before men like Dano, F2S and LAV decide it's not worth the headache to spend their time arguing with a bunch of Internet experts who don't know what they don't know. Dano, thanks for your continued participation. Many of us here still appreciate it.
This is one of those times that members are either going to have to accept our vetting or move on.
The derail ends now.
Further disruption at this point cannot be permitted.
Please, no dog-piling, this has been addressed.
Bingo.
SME's on this forum are Tier 1 types. They are widely known to be quality individuals with substantial backgrounds. Some (like the folks in the "Ask the SME" section) are no longer serving in the Military and generally do not work for the US Govt any longer.
Dano is the exception to the above. I know where he came from and have a general idea of what he does now. I have also met him. So when he says that some piece of kit or gun is jacked up, well then it probably is.
C4
Bolt_Overide
07-22-14, 08:33
The guy he is insulting/questioning is a 23 year Special Forces veteran and current Team Sergeant... Pretty far stretch from Mr. Sheen.
Your choice of words betrays you sir. Your comments and attacks on Dano reek of fanboism. You are confusing hard, brutal observations with personal attacks. Some folks have a rating of Zero point Zero when it comes to diplomacy, but that does not mean they are not expert on that which they are speaking. I would suggest that you take your feelings out of the mix, re-evaluate, and see if he is making any sense at all.
Thank you for the article Dano. I found it very informative and hope you continue to write articles for an average guy like me to be able to read and learn.
I have a dumb question, are soldiers in socom allowed to do whatever they want to their weapons? Or are there certain guide lines depending on their unit?
I cannot speak for all of the branches in SOCOM, just the ones I have worked with. It is really up to the chain of command of each unit. I have had no issues because I train with my gear and my CoC has no issues with it. I prefer to build my own over having the only the parts available that the unit has or waiting until they are ordered.
There is a lot more flexibility but there are some rules about it, some units are more strict than others.
I am also confused about that comment.
seems from the combat footage available online, it seems that most engagements are a lot of ineffective spraying, machine guns laying down suppressive fire and then someone launches an effective grenade, rocket, recoilless rifle, etc, or an aircraft drops a bomb or a missile for the cheers at the end.
there's other combat footage of up close and personal encounters with enemy and rifle comes into play for the win.
I think that might be what the perspective is.
I have pondered this at times, the m4 or similar, without proper optics is not going to be that effective in general. people will be hiding behind cover or will be presenting very minimum targets. some may be confident making hits on a human silhouette at 300 yards with unmagnified optics, but what happens when the target is only a head? i don't know that most people would be confident at making a head shot at 300 yards even with 4x optics. and that headshot may only present itself for moments at a time, plus it's moving to the next place from which to engage. a rocket or a lobbed grenade would be way more effective.
Now that the keyboard wang-measuring contest has ceased, does anyone have info on my .300 BLK inquiry?
Going off of what Dano alluded to in his comment about shorties and their questionable effectiveness in the expanses of Afghanistan, I'd assume a niche cartridge like 300BLK not only doesn't get much "air time" but would be largely useless. Think about the contact distances we're talking about and the 300BLK ain't it. Hell, you might as well throw out aiming stakes for the mortar-like trajectory at 500-700 meters!
I guess what it comes down to is the fact that it doesn't matter what you think about the current realities and TTP's of the current warzone. You're not there. You have absolutely no clue what this guy is seeing on a day to day basis. You're in America on a cell phone or keyboard. He's taking pictures of weapons at his feet in a war zone. The fact that he is still typing means he's doing something right. I have a few badges and patches myself, even got the tattoos and a few ASI's. It really doesn't mean anything. The face that I spent a few years in Iraq doesn't make me I can even begin to fathom what is going on in the ever evolving battlefield where he is right now. The fact that you are judging someone's operational ability based upon their rail selection or where they place their accessories is pretty ridiculous. It's an immediate red flag to me. That's the whole point of SOF and SOCOM. It's the Indian. Maybe that's what works for him? Just because it doesn't pass your internet drop test it means he's less than solid soldier? That's absurd and I'm quite surprised I'm the only one to pick up on that.
I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.
I hope this doesn't get edited by a moderator, because it needs to be read and understood.
I sort of don't want to agree with you, but I see your point.
you see this happen in all walks of life. there is a definitely correct way to do things (I think this is what dano is commenting on). then there's the other way, which most of the time doesn't totally botch the mission at hand, but just because it doesn't botch the mission at hand, doesn't mean it's the correct way to do things.
lots of gear gets the job done just because it doesn't end up being relevantly obstructive during execution of the job, at least not that time. might it some day? maybe. do some people like their socks on backwards? yes. if it works for them, should they be allowed? maybe? even if it causes them blisters? if they can cope with it?
in any case, I get what you're saying.
a niche cartridge like 300BLK not only doesn't get much "air time" but would be largely useless.
Why do you think I changed the official designation to "300 Useless"? :sarcastic:
MorphCross
07-22-14, 14:10
Going off of what Dano alluded to in his comment about shorties and their questionable effectiveness in the expanses of Afghanistan, I'd assume a niche cartridge like 300BLK not only doesn't get much "air time" but would be largely useless. Think about the contact distances we're talking about and the 300BLK ain't it. Hell, you might as well throw out aiming stakes for the mortar-like trajectory at 500-700 meters!
Even if say, a group of Rangers had a .300 blackout as their firearm, the also have may have Scar Heavies, LMGs, GPMGs, mortars, or their radio for calling in air support or artillery. All of which are more effective at keeping the oppositions heads down. I'm pretty sure this has been covered in this thread before. Anyway, if they were selected for a mission it would be someones responsibility to decide on the potential for engagements at those distances and making sure that they are equipped to handle it.
Even if say, a group of Rangers had a .300 blackout as their firearm, the also have may have Scar Heavies, LMGs, GPMGs, mortars, or their radio for calling in air support or artillery. All of which are more effective at keeping the oppositions heads down. I'm pretty sure this has been covered in this thread before. Anyway, if they were selected for a mission it would be someones responsibility to decide on the potential for engagements at those distances and making sure that they are equipped to handle it.
Even with the "heavier" supportive weapons available, I would still want the bulk of my guys (i.e. those armed with an M4) to be able to hit someone at that 500-700 meter range if in a firefight and that would preclude 300BLK.
Think about it: let's say your platoon has 30 guys in it, and perhaps 24 or so are armed with M4's. You get into a firefight at ~ 600 meters. Now, with an ACOG especially, you can effectively engage with your whole platoon if those guys are using 5.56mm. However, if they have 300BLK then you basically have 6 guys armed with SAWs and 240's who are delivering somewhat deadly return fire. I'll take the former, not the latter.
I know what you're saying about mission-dictated weapons choice but in general 300BLK is not gonna get play time.
From what little I know, there are organizations using the 300. Others are T&Eing it. It has a role to play I think.
C4
People should also think outside of the Afghan box. There are still maritime operations, and other countries where stuff is going on. I would also consider it to be somewhat of a "role" caliber than general purpose.
Going off of what Dano alluded to in his comment about shorties and their questionable effectiveness in the expanses of Afghanistan, I'd assume a niche cartridge like 300BLK not only doesn't get much "air time" but would be largely useless. Think about the contact distances we're talking about and the 300BLK ain't it. Hell, you might as well throw out aiming stakes for the mortar-like trajectory at 500-700 meters!
I talked with a guy (who would know such things) recently who told me the 300BLK is seeing some limited usage during raids.
Just look at that recent raid in Somalia where the HK MP-7 was found. Even if the weapon isn't widespread it could be very useful to certain people with the ability to choose.
Did I read that the Mk12 was discontinued?
Why? I thought it was highly thought of by its users.
Dano didn't write the article, he provided comments based on his experiences on it. I won't answer your question since I only know hearsay.
Thanks for the correction.
Did I read that the Mk12 was discontinued?
Why? I thought it was highly thought of by its users.
Replaced by a long SCAR-H variant known as the Mk20. It's not as accurate as the Mk12 and the idea of using a DMR in a caliber incompatible with what everyone else carries is a little odd.
QuietShootr
07-23-14, 08:18
dc/dr
(David Crane/Didn't Read)
http://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbinesbr-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-ii/
Very interesting read. It basically covers the modern warfighter's trend toward shorter barrels, slicker hand guards and suppressors. After rereading all the benefits of 10.5 inch barrel, the DT MDR-C is looking even more appealing.
QuietShootr
07-23-14, 08:21
And this is why I didn't read it. David Crane and "Defense Review" are 100% clown shoes.
That article is comical.
A suppressor type changes ones mind about the need for improved exterior ballistics? wtf... gibberish about split times on a combat tool?
The difference in exterior and terminal ballistics from 10" to 14.5 is significant.
LMG, MMG, HMG, Mortars aren't being humped on patrols in the mountains.
Many of the, non issued, handguards displayed aren't robust enough for combat use.
Pics of dysfunctional set ups.... 100% clown shoes "article".
David Crane didn't write it.
The author was in my company years ago. He's very much on the job and has been for a long time.
sinlessorrow
07-24-14, 00:14
That article is comical.
A suppressor type changes ones mind about the need for improved exterior ballistics? wtf... gibberish about split times on a combat tool?
The difference in exterior and terminal ballistics from 10" to 14.5 is significant.
LMG, MMG, HMG, Mortars aren't being humped on patrols in the mountains.
Many of the, non issued, handguards displayed aren't robust enough for combat use.
Pics of dysfunctional set ups.... 100% clown shoes "article".
Doesn't the Australian Special Forces use the Alpha rail? Have to be decent enough then, I can't say personally as I have no first hand experience with those rails fyi.
sinlessorrow
07-24-14, 00:40
OFF TOPIC...................................That is the best thing that I have seen in a long time, it is soooo true. :jester:
Then you have never seen this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8zGr9Ya_M&list=UU6xBhF4QYIPPF2_-ExZzd2w
Cincinnatus
07-24-14, 01:30
Then you have never seen this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8zGr9Ya_M&list=UU6xBhF4QYIPPF2_-ExZzd2w
In combat, muzzle awareness can sure go out the window. On the bright side, now when he tells his grandkids about getting shot at, he can show them a personal vid.
sinlessorrow
07-24-14, 01:42
In combat, muzzle awareness can sure go out the window. On the bright side, now when he tells his grandkids about getting shot at, he can show them a personal vid.
That wasn't the issue. Did you see the sling wrapped round the grip and trigger? He had to move the sling out of the way to even use the rifle.
"It passed right by me!"
Then kill the mother ****er. Don't just lay in the prone and talk about it.
I hate seeing videos like that.
no kidding. Can't get to safety or trigger hardly.....
Seems like a very dangerous strategy on his part.
"Hey LT, cover me, I need to unlace my chit!...."
When I was in cancun I saw a mex army jeep gunner muzzle sweep the back of his drivers head repeatedly as they were parked... [emoji15]
What if the guy in the video was two seconds away from a bad guy..... he'd been dead on account of stupidity.
sinlessorrow
07-24-14, 13:37
"It passed right by me!"
Then kill the mother ****er. Don't just lay in the prone and talk about it.
I hate seeing videos like that.
He couldn't fire back if he wanted to.....he had his sling blocking the trigger :jester:
He couldn't fire back if he wanted to.....he had his sling blocking the trigger :jester:
Makes it easier to sling on his back in the DFAC that way.
WTHF?
Then you have never seen this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8zGr9Ya_M&list=UU6xBhF4QYIPPF2_-ExZzd2w
ClearedHot
07-24-14, 14:58
Then you have never seen this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B8zGr9Ya_M&list=UU6xBhF4QYIPPF2_-ExZzd2w
It was painful to watch that moron trying to unf*ck his weapon.
ColtSeavers
07-24-14, 15:13
It was painful to watch that moron trying to unf*ck his weapon.
I think the best (read as WORST) part was when he then made sure that his sling was still 'properly' wrapped around his receiver...
ETA: as in, he didn't even actually try to unf*ck his weapon, he actually just made sure his mess was neat and tidy again.
That guy had.. two? slings on his rifle. One wrapped around his lower receiver, the other was a clip on the back to use as a single point it seems.
That was more painful than a root canal without any anesthesia....... WTF?
turnburglar
07-24-14, 18:51
Not everyone in the military is a professional or a gun guy.
I used to see ****ed up slings all the time, because a rifle to 97% of the people on base is a stupid piece of luggage some old guy will scream at you about if caught without. Also your eye pro and reflective belt better be on tight. It was pretty comical living with the Army, and just being being blatantly Air Force.
Freedoooom
07-24-14, 20:00
So he acknowledges the lesser kinetic energy and range, but its okay because he gets to save 5 ounces over a 14.5" barrel.
Makes sense.
It was painful to watch that moron trying to unf*ck his weapon.
Cleared Hot, I've never ever thought about saying "un" if front of the eff word.
Brilliant!
In my best goose from top gun voice, "ma'am, we regret to inform you that your son is dead on account of stupidity and and inability to unf*uck what he did to his rifle fast enough."
No disrespect to military, I quote only in making fun of his stupidly in the video. I have the utmost gratitude for military men and women.
Thank god he had cover and squad mates with him.
My wife : "why the **** would he have 2 goddamn slings on his rifle?!"
Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
MorphCross
07-25-14, 01:05
My wife : "why the **** would he have 2 goddamn slings on his rifle?!"
Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
2 slings and a grip pod set way back next to his magazine. Wonder if this was his first foray off the FOB. Again, these guys are not always firearm guys.
Cleared Hot, I've never ever thought about saying "un" if front of the eff word.
Brilliant!
In my best goose from top gun voice, "ma'am, we regret to inform you that your son is dead on account of stupidity and and inability to unf*uck what he did to his rifle fast enough."
No disrespect to military, I quote only in making fun of his stupidly in the video. I have the utmost gratitude for military men and women.
Thank god he had cover and squad mates with him.
Wait really?
http://youtu.be/Hfxn8MU7tsQ
My wife : "why the **** would he have 2 goddamn slings on his rifle?!"
Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
Yo devil dawg, I heard you like slings...
2 slings and a grip pod set way back next to his magazine. Wonder if this was his first foray off the FOB. Again, these guys are not always firearm guys.
My wife doesn't even know what a FOB is and she knows it's retarded. Gun guy or not common sense goes a long way. You don't need to have been in the military or police to identify some of the retarded shit some people do. Two slings wound so tight as to impede the use of basic controls is just obvious.
Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
I've seen a lot of shit like that in support units. Judging by the lack of a PEQ on his rifle, I'm going to assume he serves in a non-combat arms unit and probably doesn't have the training to make informed decisions on equipment setup. The Grip Pod is VERY popular in those types of units because it lets them set their rifles on the floor of the DFAC when eating or beside their desk in their office.
I'll try to get pics of the "Best of Bagram" rifle setups when I can get around to it. You guys would get a kick out of some of them.
QuietShootr
07-25-14, 06:53
"**** YOU MAN!! YOU WEREN'T THERE, YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT!"
I can hear it now...
My wife : "why the **** would he have 2 goddamn slings on his rifle?!"
Sent from my SM-T217T using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
wildcard600
07-25-14, 07:20
an "explanation" for the second sling from the video description -
"..... As for the sling it is wrapped around to protect from having the mag release hit while patrolling and moving in and out of vehicles. It does not in any way hinder my ability to effectively provide fire or hit targets down range."
Magic_Salad0892
07-25-14, 08:29
Not to mess with personal security or anything, Dano. But it's on your username, so I figure it's free game.
Are you Army SF? Or Navy SEAL? 5326 is a Navy MOS isn't it?
Magic_Salad0892
07-25-14, 08:30
BTW. That video is agonizing to watch. "It barely missed me, man! Now I'm gonna lay here, while YOU shoot!"
I can tell you that there are a lot of shooter that are not "gun guys". Most just use what they are given and make do. I have seen some great guys use some total crap...they thought that it looked cool and wanted to try it. I have never deployed without at least 2 upper that I built with me (one is always my Noveske). I have also never deployed with an upper that did not have several thousand rounds through it.
How does that work?
Looking at the double sling, it looks like a sling and wolf hook layout. He probably uses the wrapped sling when he is not in armor, and the wolf hook when he is wearing his vest. It's a ttp, but that wrapped sling would have driven me nuts and I'd hate to see him get hurt because Mr Murphy moved the sling between his finger and his safety.
MorphCross
07-25-14, 13:46
BTW. That video is agonizing to watch. "It barely missed me, man! Now I'm gonna lay here, while YOU shoot!"
Exactly.
How does that work?
I'm not in a habit of questioning SME on how they get permission to use what they choose to use, but suffice it to say he would have had to get command level permission.
Wait really?
http://youtu.be/Hfxn8MU7tsQ
Yo devil dawg, I heard you like slings...
Oh my....I forgot about full metal jacket.... laugh my ass off. I so wasn't ready for that. Spit my drink out all over the table.
Thanks koshinn, that totally made my day. I haven't seen that show in at least 10-15 yrs. I know what I'm going to Netflix tonite.
Thanks again. Best laugh I've had all week by far.
Not to mess with personal security or anything, Dano. But it's on your username, so I figure it's free game.
Are you Army SF? Or Navy SEAL? 5326 is a Navy MOS isn't it?
Just a quick google search on the 5326 MOS
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/navynecs/p/5326.htm
How does that work?
How does what work? I am not sure what you are asking.
Moose-Knuckle
07-25-14, 15:51
I'll try to get pics of the "Best of Bagram" rifle setups when I can get around to it. You guys would get a kick out of some of them.
That sounds like a splended idea for a thread . . . can't wait to see it, I'll make sure to pop some corn!
How does what work? I am not sure what you are asking.
I believe he is ask how Dano was able to deploy personnally owned uppers. I can say that I've seen minor mods,personnal optics, grips, stocks, endplates, accu wedges and agency adapters down range in Rifle Companies. I'm sure there are units whose COC is willing to underwrite or authorize personnally owned uppers.
Moose-Knuckle
07-25-14, 16:40
I believe he is ask how Dano was able to deploy personnally owned uppers. I can say that I've seen minor mods,personnal optics, grips, stocks, endplates, accu wedges and agency adapters down range in Rifle Companies. I'm sure there are units whose COC is willing to underwrite or authorize personnally owned uppers.
A misscommunication as Salad was asking Doc the question not Dano . . .
I have never deployed without at least 2 upper that I built with me (one is always my Noveske). I have also never deployed with an upper that did not have several thousand rounds through it.
How does that work?
How does what work? I am not sure what you are asking.
Moose Knucke,You are correct. Error on my part. Thanks
I've seen a lot of shit like that in support units. Judging by the lack of a PEQ on his rifle, I'm going to assume he serves in a non-combat arms unit and probably doesn't have the training to make informed decisions on equipment setup. The Grip Pod is VERY popular in those types of units because it lets them set their rifles on the floor of the DFAC when eating or beside their desk in their office.
I'll try to get pics of the "Best of Bagram" rifle setups when I can get around to it. You guys would get a kick out of some of them.
Sadly it's not just the support guys. I saw it a lot in the infantry too. And regarding the placement of the grip, I think it may be a Marine SOP. Every single picture I have ever seen of a Marine with a grip on his rifle, it has been back almost all the way to the magwell. That or a lot of them just use the magwell instead. Not sure why.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sadly it's not just the support guys. I saw it a lot in the infantry too. And regarding the placement of the grip, I think it may be a Marine SOP. Every single picture I have ever seen of a Marine with a grip on his rifle, it has been back almost all the way to the magwell. That or a lot of them just use the magwell instead. Not sure why.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Two of my high school buddies are marines and they said the brass wouldn't allow them to have a vfg in the forward half of their hand guard. This was 2008-09 ish, no idea if that is still protocol now.
Failure2Stop
07-25-14, 21:40
Two of my high school buddies are marines and they said the brass wouldn't allow them to have a vfg in the forward half of their hand guard. This was 2008-09 ish, no idea if that is still protocol now.
That's asinine.
turnburglar
07-25-14, 21:47
Best of bagram? That 550 cord m4 counts as my first. Here's my second entry. This one is more "abstract art" that demonstrates my feelings of war.
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc428/zturney/IMAG0414.jpg
Best of bagram? That 550 cord m4 counts as my first. Here's my second entry. This one is more "abstract art" that demonstrates my feelings of war.
We'll make it another thread in GD.
Sadly it's not just the support guys. I saw it a lot in the infantry too. And regarding the placement of the grip, I think it may be a Marine SOP. Every single picture I have ever seen of a Marine with a grip on his rifle, it has been back almost all the way to the magwell. That or a lot of them just use the magwell instead. Not sure why.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Much with it has to do with carry the rifle many thousands of hours compared shooting it for minutes, it is much easier to carry that way for long distance without slinging it; also in the mid 2000s the training was to assume a boxer stance and where your hands fell when you threw them up was approximate where your foregrip went
ClearedHot
07-26-14, 08:01
I believe he is ask how Dano was able to deploy personnally owned uppers. I can say that I've seen minor mods,personnal optics, grips, stocks, endplates, accu wedges and agency adapters down range in Rifle Companies. I'm sure there are units whose COC is willing to underwrite or authorize personnally owned uppers.
Typically if your command is willing to put your personal upper on the unit's property book before you deploy, then that upper is now technically unit property. When the ISU90 gets inspected, and they see your upper and match it to the property book, it won't raise any eyebrows.
There are guys in SOF units that bring complete personally owned rifles and other weapons with them on a deployment. Take this guy and his AR for example. Notice the semi auto lower...
http://i.imgur.com/jjbBEbM.jpg
Not this one again...
UNITS. DO. NOT. PUT. PERSONAL. ITEMS. ON. UNIT. PROPERTY. BOOKS.
What is the mechanism to do this? What form adds your personal upper to the unit's property book? What codes does PBUSE use, and what line item name is assigned for a weapon that is not in the military system? What are the regulations for non-standard weapons and how they are authorized by Department of (Insert Services' Name) to be added to specialized units as an authorized weapon (HK21, HK416, Glocks early on, specialty SWS, among many others)? Why do we have billion-dollar testing and fielding programs if a field-grade and below commander can substitute personally owned weapons systems (hint...they can't)?
I find this myth to be as absurd as "lube attracts dirt and makes guns less reliable." I've seen plenty of people take uppers (which was never a big deal) and guns (a very big deal) downrange. For firearms specifically, some made it back unscathed as many specialized units do their own Customs inspections, or the USN/USAF members that perform the main customs duties in theater don't know what half of our stuff is so they just shrug and let it pass. Make no mistake, I know SOF SGMs that have had careers ended by taking a pistol downrange also. As always, do what you think you can get away with. Every one of those guys that have been busted, and there have been plenty, knew it was wrong but figured they could get away with it. Some did, some didn't.
I question the judgement or at least knowledge of a guy that leaves a Colt M4 behind so he can carry his Podunk Precision Billet Zombie Edition AR with an unstaked gas key and sweet commericial extension into combat anyways.
Magic_Salad0892
07-26-14, 10:32
Not this one again...
UNITS. DO. NOT. PUT. PERSONAL. ITEMS. ON. UNIT. PROPERTY. BOOKS.
What is the mechanism to do this? What form adds your personal upper to the unit's property book? What codes does PBUSE use, and what line item name is assigned for a weapon that is not in the military system? What are the regulations for non-standard weapons and how they are authorized by Department of (Insert Services' Name) to be added to specialized units as an authorized weapon (HK21, HK416, Glocks early on, specialty SWS, among many others)? Why do we have billion-dollar testing and fielding programs if a field-grade and below commander can substitute personally owned weapons systems (hint...they can't)?
I find this myth to be as absurd as "lube attracts dirt and makes guns less reliable." I've seen plenty of people take uppers (which was never a big deal) and guns (a very big deal) downrange. For firearms specifically, some made it back unscathed as many specialized units do their own Customs inspections, or the USN/USAF members that perform the main customs duties in theater don't know what half of our stuff is so they just shrug and let it pass. Make no mistake, I know SOF SGMs that have had careers ended by taking a pistol downrange also. As always, do what you think you can get away with. Every one of those guys that have been busted, and there have been plenty, knew it was wrong but figured they could get away with it. Some did, some didn't.
I question the judgement or at least knowledge of a guy that leaves a Colt M4 behind so he can carry his Podunk Precision Billet Zombie Edition AR with an unstaked gas key and sweet commericial extension into combat anyways.
Sorry for derailing the thread.
How come uppers aren't a big deal?
Also: I was asking docsherm how he was taking personal uppers on deployment, as I've always assumed that shit was a no-go.
Gotta say, I'm happily surprised by the quality of the response.
Well played.
Yeah, if I didn't know any better, I would assume it was somebody trying to justify their collection of random SOF-looking clone builds. Well... I don't know any better, it just feels exactly like that.
Honorthecall81
07-26-14, 10:57
When I read all the back and forth about which peice
of kit will keep you alive or get you killed or what
have you, I remember some words of wisdom. For
those who don't share my worldview just take it for
what it's worth.
Psalm 44:6-7 For I will not trust in my bow, Nor shall
my sword save me. 7 But You have saved us from our
enemies, And have put to shame those who hated us.
Some will understand this and some will not.
ClearedHot
07-26-14, 10:59
For firearms specifically, some made it back unscathed as many specialized units do their own Customs inspections, or the USN/USAF members that perform the main customs duties in theater don't know what half of our stuff is so they just shrug and let it pass. Make no mistake, I know SOF SGMs that have had careers ended by taking a pistol downrange also. As always, do what you think you can get away with. Every one of those guys that have been busted, and there have been plenty, knew it was wrong but figured they could get away with it. Some did, some didn't.
What it comes down to is the customs inspection when you come back. If your SOF unit conducts their own checks, chances are you will probably get away with it, should you happen to have a personal weapon in your Storm case. Maybe USASOC takes a much dimmer view regarding personal weapons being brought overseas. In stark contrast to Army SOF E9's getting shitcanned over bringing a pistol downrange, it was not an uncommon sight to see NSW personnel with personal handguns in theater. I've seen guys with everything from 1911's, USP's, various Glocks, etc. Chris Kyle even talked about bringing his personal Sig P220 with him to Iraq in his book.
Customs can be hit and miss. I wasn't with the armorer, but I don't think customs ever looked too closely at extra rifle parts, just serial #s. The other option that I have seen people do - not that I am condoning it - is bring and upper and simply leave it. I had some snipers detailed to my unit that ran Larue uppers on their M4 lowers and simply sold them off to whoever the could when their tour was up.
But, as expected, M4Guru is right. There is no way to add them to the property book.
Rick
I make no qualms about the fact that guys did it...I know a lot of them. I was there. I also took the training to perform the unit's Customs checks before redeployment. I don't care if a dude takes his own guns, but I don't feel bad when the wrong guy from the command sees it and he gets hammered. Big boy rules doesn't mean "do what you want", it means "deal with the consequences."
My point is that do it, don't do it, whatever, there is no authorized way to add a personally owned gun to a unit's property books for the purpose of carrying it overseas in combat.
There is no "dim view" because there's no room for interpretation. It's wrong, it's prohibited. If someone does it and gets caught, you can't say you didn't know. Plenty of dudes that run this site know me personally off the web, and will tell you I'm not so much a stickler for regulation if it helps get a job done. Just be willing to accept the consequences of those actions when you make that call.
Typically if your command is willing to put your personal upper on the unit's property book before you deploy, then that upper is now technically unit property. When the ISU90 gets inspected, and they see your upper and match it to the property book, it won't raise any eyebrows.
Magic_Salad0892
07-26-14, 11:12
So uppers are good to go, generally because the serial numbers (on the lower) will match what's on inventory?
With the exception of small-arms repair kit uppers and CQBR uppers (in SOF units that get their guns from their branch of service, not from Crane, the "MK18" is just a supplementary upper for their M4A1) I never had an upper on a property book, as they are just a component of the end-item.
"Good to go" I suppose is relative to your command at a lower level. Nobody I was around ever cared about uppers, but I am sure a PFC in 4th ID may have a different perspective. At a fundamental level I suppose it's still against regulations for non-approved modifications to issues weapons systems. As Dano (who knows his stuff, and I have gleaned a lot from over the last decade or so) pointed out, that serves to protect dudes from themselves in many instances.
justin_247
07-26-14, 14:16
Yeah, if I didn't know any better, I would assume it was somebody trying to justify their collection of random SOF-looking clone builds. Well... I don't know any better, it just feels exactly like that.
Looking at the pics, it definitely doesn't look like they were taken in the USA. The painted seams on the brickwork, the poor quality of the cement, etc...
sinlessorrow
07-26-14, 15:18
Looking at the pics, it definitely doesn't look like they were taken in the USA. The painted seams on the brickwork, the poor quality of the cement, etc...
M4Guru himself said he knows the author of the article. It amazes me people are still questioningif it's real or fake.
Let's not forget avid crane has hosted articles from the like of Mike Pannone as well.
M4Guru himself said he knows the author of the article. It amazes me people are still questioningif it's real or fake.
Let's not forget avid crane has hosted articles from the like of Mike Pannone as well.
I think Justin was saying that since the background doesn't look like it is in the US it adds credibility to the pictures not being someone's knock off collection (assumed to be in the US).
sinlessorrow
07-26-14, 16:21
I think Justin was saying that since the background doesn't look like it is in the US it adds credibility to the pictures not being someone's knock off collection (assumed to be in the US).
Gotcha, thats my bad then.
justin_247
07-26-14, 16:45
I think Justin was saying that since the background doesn't look like it is in the US it adds credibility to the pictures not being someone's knock off collection (assumed to be in the US).
Exactly.
At no point in time did I question the actual author of the article or his beliefs.
sinlessorrow
07-26-14, 16:48
Exactly.
At no point in time did I question the actual author of the article or his beliefs.
Yeah sorry about this. Missunderstood the point of your post.
Combat_Diver
07-26-14, 21:52
Interesting perspective the author has but then again I normally never ran a can on mine. If given the option I would prefer a 20" LB Mk17 or M14/FAL over my M4A1. I will get the experience to see what they are running downrange next month as I go back as a armorer for them.
CD
Looking at the pics, it definitely doesn't look like they were taken in the USA. The painted seams on the brickwork, the poor quality of the cement, etc...
I've gotten to play in the sandbox, that looks like the area north of Kandahar more than anywhere else on the planet I've seen in a couple of those pictures. Hence the 'If I didn't know any better'.
I did very seriously look at trying to take my Mk12 upper out to Afghanistan, even if it meant leaving it out there, but decided it wouldn't be worth the hassle or asspain to deal with it; despite the fact that we look like a Pelican Case yardsale of customs exempt stuff anyway.
I wound up being a fobbit damn near half the time anyway learning to run new gear in country, and the Bn we were attached to were able to push at least one legit Mk12 out to each augmented squad anyway, so that would have been a waste.
How does that work?
Complete uppers are just parts. I would put them in my Tuff boxes in cases and pack them with the rest of my gear. I never really even asked. It started off with stocks and grips and then optics. I just started to save time and used my own uppers. My command never said anything about it because I was the one that always did most of the training and fixed all of the weapons systems. I never had any problems with customs because they are just parts. They know the law.
M4Guru hit the nail on the head....if I were a PFC in 4th ID I would be doing push ups until the world ended if I put my own sling on instead of the issued one. People are treated different when they are in different organizations.
Magic_Salad0892
07-29-14, 17:14
Complete uppers are just parts. I would put them in my Tuff boxes in cases and pack them with the rest of my gear. I never really even asked. It started off with stocks and grips and then optics. I just started to save time and used my own uppers. My command never said anything about it because I was the one that always did most of the training and fixed all of the weapons systems. I never had any problems with customs because they are just parts. They know the law.
M4Guru hit the nail on the head....if I were a PFC in 4th ID I would be doing push ups until the world ended if I put my own sling on instead of the issued one. People are treated different when they are in different organizations.
Makes sense.
I am curious though, why risk breaking your own shit that you paid for, rather than just sticking your own optics, stock, and grip on an issued gun?
Voodoochild
07-29-14, 19:54
Interesting perspective the author has but then again I normally never ran a can on mine. If given the option I would prefer a 20" LB Mk17 or M14/FAL over my M4A1. I will get the experience to see what they are running downrange next month as I go back as a armorer for them.
CD
Safe travels.
This pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. The guys I knew who had their own uppers, etc... all knew what the stakes were and they accepted it.
I make no qualms about the fact that guys did it...I know a lot of them. I was there. I also took the training to perform the unit's Customs checks before redeployment. I don't care if a dude takes his own guns, but I don't feel bad when the wrong guy from the command sees it and he gets hammered. Big boy rules doesn't mean "do what you want", it means "deal with the consequences."
My point is that do it, don't do it, whatever, there is no authorized way to add a personally owned gun to a unit's property books for the purpose of carrying it overseas in combat.
There is no "dim view" because there's no room for interpretation. It's wrong, it's prohibited. If someone does it and gets caught, you can't say you didn't know. Plenty of dudes that run this site know me personally off the web, and will tell you I'm not so much a stickler for regulation if it helps get a job done. Just be willing to accept the consequences of those actions when you make that call.
sevenhelmet
07-30-14, 09:53
I know of some that used to carry only 3 extra M4 mags because if they ever got into it heavy, they'd just call CAS. Maybe something along those lines?
Going back a few pages, but my jaw hit the floor when I saw this one. The limitations of CAS and time-to-kill nonwithstanding, how many guys can say they have had 100% dedicated air coverage every time they go outside the wire?
Back on topic, this thread is an interesting read. It has me reevaluating my choice of hand guard for the 18" middie I am currently putting together.
I find it fascinating to hear SME's experience with different set ups and accessories. It gives us insight on what really works and what works only for recreational shooting. This thread has me reevaluating my opinion on optics. Thank you Dano, I will not be looking to buy another Elcan because of your experience, going to put that money into a NF. Perhaps we should have a thread where SME's give their experiences with various pieces of kit and what work, what didn't and why it did or did not.
3ACR_Scout
07-30-14, 12:25
Not this one again...
UNITS. DO. NOT. PUT. PERSONAL. ITEMS. ON. UNIT. PROPERTY. BOOKS.
What is the mechanism to do this? What form adds your personal upper to the unit's property book? What codes does PBUSE use, and what line item name is assigned for a weapon that is not in the military system?
If you really wanted to do it, it would be as straightforward as adding any other piece of COTS equipment to the property book, just like we used to do with Eotechs, flashlights, computers, printers, projectors, and other equipment early on in the war before they were assigned NSNs. As another example, my headquarters company had a captured Iraqi pistol that was placed on the property book with its serial number included. The property book officer simply generates a non-standard NSN (one of those that you see on the books that had letters mixed in with the numbers) and assigns it a generic "place holder" LIN like "A001." The line item name is whatever the PBO manually enters in. You see plenty of those on headquarters property books, as well as a few items on line company books. My Cav Troop had 10 Eotechs on the books that someone's dad sent the unit when they deployed to OIF I. They were all broken and unserviceable by the time I took command, but they sat on a separate, made-up LIN that the PBO had assigned to them.
Having said that, of course the commander and PBO would have to both agree to do it with a personal item, and then go through the hassle of removing it later. I wouldn't have allowed that as a commander or as a BN XO. I seem to recall someone having to do it one time to dispose of a personal weapon, though. It had been abandoned by a soldier (I don't remember the circumstances) and someone insisted on it being on the books before the installation would destroy it. That memory is pretty hazy through...
Dave
Going back a few pages, but my jaw hit the floor when I saw this one. The limitations of CAS and time-to-kill nonwithstanding, how many guys can say they have had 100% dedicated air coverage every time they go outside the wire?
Yeah I'm still kind of surprised by it. They'd definitely be the ones to have CAS on stand-by though.
Dano- Please don't stop coming onto M4C. Plenty of us truly value your words.
Dammit!
Dano, thanks for your contributions, past and present. It is greatly appreciated by many here.
I agree with 6933. I would say 99.99% of us here, do.
Not to veer too far off my lane here but rather than seeing Dano stop posting, it ought to be the pest that be stopped from doing so.
BufordTJustice
07-30-14, 20:20
I agree with 6933. I would say 99.99% of us here, do.
Not to veer too far off my lane here but rather than seeing Dano stop posting, it ought to be the pest that be stopped from doing so.
I second the motion. Nobody who goes to work with their rig has time for this shit.
Without sounding like an ass kisser; Dano, it would be a damn shame to lose your experience and insight.
We've lost a lot of very valuable members here recently...
steyrman13
07-30-14, 20:50
I agree with 6933. I would say 99.99% of us here, do.
Not to veer too far off my lane here but rather than seeing Dano stop posting, it ought to be the pest that be stopped from doing so.
He was banned...I checked back on the first page and shows banned now.
Yes again Dano, please do not stop. The overwhelming majority value your words and thank you for your insight listed earlier in the thread!
steyrman13
07-30-14, 20:51
We've lost a lot of very valuable members here recently...
Yeah do to morons acting like ****s to the SMEs.
If you can't pick your shit up at 3pm or 0300 and it's configured to get it done 0-400m in seconds, sideways, upside down, or unstable... you're a daylight range clown... Hasta
Man crush level - 11.
That said, I would fully understand your decision to limit your time spent here to SME/Industry and other things that specifically interest you, I just sincerely hope that the above quoted section is far from the last gem you drop here.
yawn.
lost my interest soon as I read "3 gun" "key mod" "drive the gun" etc....
Going back a few pages, but my jaw hit the floor when I saw this one. The limitations of CAS and time-to-kill nonwithstanding, how many guys can say they have had 100% dedicated air coverage every time they go outside the wire?
Back on topic, this thread is an interesting read. It has me reevaluating my choice of hand guard for the 18" middie I am currently putting together.
A friend who is an SME here rolled ten deep on M4 mags outside the wire in AFG and Africa. Friends of his did 2, 3, 4 years in Iraq wearing 3 mags because there was a bag of spares in the truck if they had to hit more houses than planned. So you'll have two experienced SOF Soldiers saying with knowledge and honesty what worked for them in their dissimilar AO and missions despite the fact that the answers are worlds apart.
A friend who is an SME here rolled ten deep on M4 mags outside the wire in AFG and Africa. Friends of his did 2, 3, 4 years in Iraq wearing 3 mags because there was a bag of spares in the truck if they had to hit more houses than planned. So you'll have two experienced SOF Soldiers saying with knowledge and honesty what worked for them in their dissimilar AO and missions despite the fact that the answers are worlds apart.
I was just a regular old line unit leg. In 03 in Iraq I was a SAW gunner and carried 900 rounds. I shot about 150 rounds total throughout the entire invasion being on the front lines. In 05 in Iraq I carried a M16-DMR and carried 11 mags. That whole year I fired about half a mag.
Both times the Bradleys, Abrams and humvees did the vast majority of the shooting. I could have easily dropped down to a few extra mags. However the guys up in the mountains of Afghanistan don't have the luxury of mobile armored death machines.
Long Range Trigger Monkey
08-01-14, 06:17
In Afghanistan I carried the standard combat load out of six mags in my TT MAV and a couple spares in my assault pack. I felt there were diminishing returns carrying 8-10 mags like some guys in my platoon while we were working up in the hills and moving through compounds. Some guys carried that many because they'd heard about some TIC out in Khoust that last for hours or they no shit just thought it was the cool thing to do. However IMO carrying that many mags on your person creates a lot of weight and bulk that when combined with the armor and other gear we had to carry reduces your mobility and efficiency. There was a great piece of advice on another forum about gear that went something like if you can run, jump, get over an 8' wall, and keep fighting in all of your gear you're doing it wrong.
Bolt_Overide
08-01-14, 09:43
Getting tired of losing out on valuable experience, insight, and opinions because some ****wit wants to get in a dick measuring contest with an SME.
Wow. This thread degraded quickly. I know the author of article personally. He is a stand up dude with multiple combat deployments encompassing a 20+ year career. I am somewhat amused with how hard some others in "the industry" came at him.
lightestfighter
09-03-14, 17:23
Given the opinions expressed here and in the article, it's interesting to note KD's newest featured gun:
28328
Heavy Metal
09-03-14, 17:32
Dano,
Please stick around.
Maybe just maybe this is about carrying heavy stuff up hills and mitigating that weight as much as possible.
Moose-Knuckle
09-03-14, 20:02
Given the opinions expressed here and in the article, it's interesting to note KD's newest featured gun:
28328
I couldn't help but notice that he dropped the CAR stock and I don't see a full length cleaning rod hanging on the side of his karbean.
Given the opinions expressed here and in the article, it's interesting to note KD's newest featured gun:
28328
As the parts and accessories become more plentiful, the actualization of that concept goal is getting easier to access. Mine differs in a few spots from ideal (UBR ideally would be an A5/ACS or A5/SOPMOD, I happen to run an OPS 14th or M4S on mine) and some newer hardware can go further with that idea (VCOG, BCM's KMR), that is absolutely the formula for an amazing contact-600m capable rifle [though KD's own guidelines of 4's would make that a 0-400m tool].
http://i58.tinypic.com/2nm2kar.jpg
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.