View Full Version : Parts ain't parts and other miscellaneous musings.
I wanted to post some recent observations from the last several months of doing classes and seeing different AR's. I would say that a good 60% of the stuff I am seeing are home built. A good percentage of those have a combination of good parts mixed with questionable ones. BCG's of unknown origin, LPK's that were on "special", etc... Often times I am seeing weapons that have not been properly assembled (torque values, lack of Loctite, non-dimpled barrels and low profile gas blocks, etc..).
In the current market it is even worse because there are companies unloading parts as fast as possible onto the market. If anyone thinks a 99.00 BCG is going to perform like a 159.00 one from a quality proven company you are wrong.
I am still seeing a lot of crappy stakings as well. In the last class one particular carbine had a barrel nut that was not much more than hand tight, no Loctite on the gas block screws, non-dimpled barrel, no Loctite on the screws for the rail, a broken hammer spring and flash hider was improperly timed.
Here's a pic of an AR Stoner BCG sold by Midway. I would be curious to see if this is standard for them or just slipped through. The stakings were sub-par and the front screw came out with no effort. As you can see there is no parkerizing below the key or top of the carrier.
27436
MorphCross
07-22-14, 04:44
To borrow a common colloquialism, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" or it is more like the typical bargain shopper we see in big box stores. You try to tell them that x entry door is substandard compared to y entry door because a,b, and c yet they think, "it is an entry door what do I care that it's made of a lighter steel skin or that the jamb runs to the ground, or that there is no hole drilled for a deadbolt?" There are those who will go with value no matter how you encourage them to at least step up to something that will last longer, be lower maintenance, and be more secure.
Thanks for sharing that data. I wish the "as good as" crew would listen. However, it does reaffirm my belief in buying for know good manufacturers. It also astounds me how many hobby builders don't use a torqure wrench or understand staking. Then again, when I started out, I wasn't that smart either.
Thanks again.
Actually was thinking more "You get what you pay for." Though there are exceptions to that with some of these ARs out there, usually from small local companies going for the high end market with catchy phrases, and marketing to the lowest common denominator, currently that are more than a comparable DD or BCM in price and the parts that are used are from god knows where and to specs that are unknown at best. I see a lot of local guns stores that "specialize" or build ARs that do that, banking on people going with the "It was built local." thing, or wanting a lower that has the name of the town they live in or near on it thinking that makes it better for some reason.
Any more I've come to the conclusion that I might as well just save up and buy exactly what I want and be done with it rather than worry about trying to save $20 bucks here, or $30 bucks there. In the end, even if I end up spending $200 or even $400 more on an AR than I would have liked, I get the rifle that is one what I wanted and two that I am not going to have to worry about going to shit in under 3K rounds. Besides, think of it this way, in the long run, what the hell is $200 bucks? And hell, if you buy something with the plans of upgrading later, you are still going to lose money, and even if you get the item you really wanted on sale like I did in the end for one rail system guess what it ended up costing me the same money in the long run! :suicide:
Also, in the last month or so, I would make the argument, that there is no damn reason to buy shitty AR parts. What with Colts popping up for $799 in several places, BCM having a massive sale on cosmo blem uppers (Yes bought one, and am seriously thinking of another one, the blem 14.5 socom uppers(Sorry IG) for a future build), BCM BCGs dropping down to $170, and quality parts not out of stock everywhere at prices at or better than what they were before the shit hit the fan.
Why buy shitty parts?
People are cheap and lazy that's why!
I never thought about Parkerizing under the key or on top of the carrier. How can we know this is accomplished on other bcg's without taking them apart? Thanks for the insight.
Why buy shitty parts?
People are cheap and lazy that's why!
I'd also include uneducated.
Actually was thinking more "You get what you pay for." Though there are exceptions to that with some of these ARs out there, usually from small local companies going for the high end market with catchy phrases, and marketing to the lowest common denominator, currently that are more than a comparable DD or BCM in price and the parts that are used are from god knows where and to specs that are unknown at best. I see a lot of local guns stores that "specialize" or build ARs that do that, banking on people going with the "It was built local." thing, or wanting a lower that has the name of the town they live in or near on it thinking that makes it better for some reason.
Any more I've come to the conclusion that I might as well just save up and buy exactly what I want and be done with it rather than worry about trying to save $20 bucks here, or $30 bucks there. In the end, even if I end up spending $200 or even $400 more on an AR than I would have liked, I get the rifle that is one what I wanted and two that I am not going to have to worry about going to shit in under 3K rounds. Besides, think of it this way, in the long run, what the hell is $200 bucks? And hell, if you buy something with the plans of upgrading later, you are still going to lose money, and even if you get the item you really wanted on sale like I did in the end for one rail system guess what it ended up costing me the same money in the long run! :suicide:
Also, in the last month or so, I would make the argument, that there is no damn reason to buy shitty AR parts. What with Colts popping up for $799 in several places, BCM having a massive sale on cosmo blem uppers (Yes bought one, and am seriously thinking of another one, the blem 14.5 socom uppers(Sorry IG) for a future build), BCM BCGs dropping down to $170, and quality parts not out of stock everywhere at prices at or better than what they were before the shit hit the fan.
Why buy shitty parts?
People are cheap and lazy that's why!
I agree with everything you said... But, be carful of the "you get what you pay for" saying. A guy I know is putting together parts and he asked quite a few questions, and one time he asked about some part and I said that saying. His reply so I'm good to go with DPMS or bushmaster, cause it's the same or more than Xgtg brand? I facepalmed myself really hard, and went though the whole thing again.
Grand58742
07-22-14, 10:16
I agree with everything you said... But, be carful of the "you get what you pay for" saying. A guy I know is putting together parts and he asked quite a few questions, and one time he asked about some part and I said that saying. His reply so I'm good to go with DPMS or bushmaster, cause it's the same or more than Xgtg brand? I facepalmed myself really hard, and went though the whole thing again.
This. I mean, some manufacturers are charging a premium price for what amounts to lesser parts. Rock River comes immediately to mind.
I never thought about Parkerizing under the key or on top of the carrier. How can we know this is accomplished on other bcg's without taking them apart? Thanks for the insight.
Why would you want that? You want a near mirror finish for those surfaces. Some armorer's lap and seal the key to the carrier.
I'll at a minimum smooth the bottom of the key with 400 grit. I've done a lapping job on one or two as well.
Why would you want that? You want a near mirror finish for those surfaces. Some armorer's lap and seal the key to the carrier.
I'll at a minimum smooth the bottom of the key with 400 grit. I've done a lapping job on one or two as well.
Why would you want it? Phosphate helps mitigate rust. It's also friable, so when the two parts come together the coating effectively 'crushes' the fine tips and peaks of the coating and can make an excellent seal without having to have mirror finished parts, as the finish will allow some surface variance to fill in as the two parts come together. Also, not for nothing, if the two surfaces are mirror finish it won't amount to a hill of beans if they're not also very FLAT. Some of us know how to accomplish that, many don't. Hand lapping a production part is simply more cost than it's worth since any shop making carriers should have grinding capability which will yield the necessary finish and flatness, even after coatings.
My greater concern would be with how the parts were phosphate coated. If done as an assembly, I would have major reservations. The phosphoric acid used will get into every little gap and cranny in there and cause drama down the road. It likes to 'bleed' out and when it's in contact with steel below the coating temperature (180-210 deg F) it can cause pitting and rust rather than phosphate deposition. In this case, it's not a matter of having the coating between the parts, but rather what is considered good practice. I look at the picture above and it's obvious the carrier was phosphate coated after assembly. No phosphate under the screw heads, in the threads, or in the counterbores where the screw heads reside. The threads would be a concern to me. Rust or pitting in this area will eventually fail the screw(s) and can cause the key to separate (even if they were torqued correctly) and cause significant damage as well as a putting the rifle down for the count. That's simply not acceptable for something upon which a person might stake their life.
Many shops take shortcuts like this because "its just as good" and it saves them time since they don't have to rack each one of those parts for coating, then stake them, then touch-up the staked area to ensure there's no bare material visible. It saves them a few bucks, and the typical buyer won't know the difference. Unfortunately, these are often choices made by folks that simply don't understand exactly how these parts function and rather than work toward efficient means of production they take the 'made in china' route and cut corners.
Properly phosphate coated parts require the chrome plated surfaces to be protected from the phosphoric acid, which is also another cost consideration (masking/plugging). This is easier to do when two chrome plated parts (if they have chrome on them, and if they care to mask them properly) are bolted together and can be masked once instead of twice separately.
In the end, it is very difficult for any consumer to know what's GTG and what isn't simply by looking at it. Company reputation and evaluation by those that really know what's what is very important.
That's the most I've ever learned about phosphate coating in under 5 minutes. Thanks Phreakish.
Why would you want it? Phosphate helps mitigate rust. It's also friable, so when the two parts come together the coating effectively 'crushes' the fine tips and peaks of the coating and can make an excellent seal without having to have mirror finished parts, as the finish will allow some surface variance to fill in as the two parts come together. Also, not for nothing, if the two surfaces are mirror finish it won't amount to a hill of beans if they're not also very FLAT. Some of us know how to accomplish that, many don't. Hand lapping a production part is simply more cost than it's worth since any shop making carriers should have grinding capability which will yield the necessary finish and flatness, even after coatings.
My greater concern would be with how the parts were phosphate coated. If done as an assembly, I would have major reservations. The phosphoric acid used will get into every little gap and cranny in there and cause drama down the road. It likes to 'bleed' out and when it's in contact with steel below the coating temperature (180-210 deg F) it can cause pitting and rust rather than phosphate deposition. In this case, it's not a matter of having the coating between the parts, but rather what is considered good practice. I look at the picture above and it's obvious the carrier was phosphate coated after assembly. No phosphate under the screw heads, in the threads, or in the counterbores where the screw heads reside. The threads would be a concern to me. Rust or pitting in this area will eventually fail the screw(s) and can cause the key to separate (even if they were torqued correctly) and cause significant damage as well as a putting the rifle down for the count. That's simply not acceptable for something upon which a person might stake their life.
Many shops take shortcuts like this because "its just as good" and it saves them time since they don't have to rack each one of those parts for coating, then stake them, then touch-up the staked area to ensure there's no bare material visible. It saves them a few bucks, and the typical buyer won't know the difference. Unfortunately, these are often choices made by folks that simply don't understand exactly how these parts function and rather than work toward efficient means of production they take the 'made in china' route and cut corners.
Properly phosphate coated parts require the chrome plated surfaces to be protected from the phosphoric acid, which is also another cost consideration (masking/plugging). This is easier to do when two chrome plated parts (if they have chrome on them, and if they care to mask them properly) are bolted together and can be masked once instead of twice separately.
In the end, it is very difficult for any consumer to know what's GTG and what isn't simply by looking at it. Company reputation and evaluation by those that really know what's what is very important.
Phreakish, back in my younger days I was a metal finisher for computer components. Some of the parts were phosphate coated. This was one of the best finishes I liked to work with. Keeping the free acid and Fe concentration in check the bath could go days without any additions (not including H2O of course). I used 00 steel wool to keep the iron level up. I would add it at the end of the day. If you didn't give it enough time to dissolve, parts would come out "fuzzy" from the small undissolved bits of steel wool-and they were hard to remove! Most successful baths had crude build-up in the tanks. I learned not to remove most of this crude. I always had a theory that when the concentration of some components of the bath became too much they would deposit in the crude and then when these same components were diluted in the bath they would leach out of the crude. This kept most components in the bath balanced and crystal size, color, and deposition rates in check . I wish I had studied this theory to more effect, but I didn't get the chance. And you are right about bleeding out. If the metal being treated is porous (we were using pressed metals-yes, very porous!) you can run into some major problems. There is still some "voodoo" involved with any chemical processes, LOL!
Phreakish, back in my younger days I was a metal finisher for computer components. Some of the parts were phosphate coated. This was one of the best finishes I liked to work with. Keeping the free acid and Fe concentration in check the bath could go days without any additions (not including H2O of course). I used 00 steel wool to keep the iron level up. I would add it at the end of the day. If you didn't give it enough time to dissolve, parts would come out "fuzzy" from the small undissolved bits of steel wool-and they were hard to remove! Most successful baths had crude build-up in the tanks. I learned not to remove most of this crude. I always had a theory that when the concentration of some components of the bath became too much they would deposit in the crude and then when these same components were diluted in the bath they would leach out of the crude. This kept most components in the bath balanced. I wish I had studied this theory to more effect, but I didn't get the chance. There is still some "voodoo" involved with any chemical processes, LOL!
There's definitely some truth to the voodoo. The free acid is the one that gets most platers. If it's not checked tank-side, things happen as the bath cools and you get bad readings and it becomes simply hopeless. The fuzz would happen not just from undissolved bits of steel, but also because you get what's called 'flocking', or phosphate that falls out of the bath as it's reacting on the undissolved bits that are floating upward due to the bubbles coming off during the reaction, the flocking lands on the part as a half-adhered dust-like crud. The unintended consequence of that flocking is that it would inhibit the reaction on the surface of the part, and would cause all kinds of drama with the finished parts. It sloughs off easy, the surface underneath can have an uneven appearance, etc. I found it especially troublesome when free acid was high and trying to coat something with a bore - if the plater didn't hold the part vertically (sometimes difficult to do with racking limitations) the flocking would land on the bottom of the bore and give an uneven finish.
The best phosphate baths are those that are run constantly and checked regularly for free acid. Whenever the tank sits at temperature without 'working' things are diverging from nominal and will cause trouble at some point.
When done right, there's few things that are as nice looking and useful as a good phosphate coating. It soaks up lubrication like a sponge, acts as it's own 'dry film' lubrication on occasion and is also a great high-pressure wear reducer that can eliminate galling and reduce running friction.
wildcard600
07-22-14, 15:11
im just gonna take the cliffsnotes version of this thread as "buy BCM", especially after Phreakish's very informative post.
There's definitely some truth to the voodoo. The free acid is the one that gets most platers. If it's not checked tank-side, things happen as the bath cools and you get bad readings and it becomes simply hopeless. The fuzz would happen not just from undissolved bits of steel, but also because you get what's called 'flocking', or phosphate that falls out of the bath as it's reacting on the undissolved bits that are floating upward due to the bubbles coming off during the reaction, the flocking lands on the part as a half-adhered dust-like crud. The unintended consequence of that flocking is that it would inhibit the reaction on the surface of the part, and would cause all kinds of drama with the finished parts. It sloughs off easy, the surface underneath can have an uneven appearance, etc. I found it especially troublesome when free acid was high and trying to coat something with a bore - if the plater didn't hold the part vertically (sometimes difficult to do with racking limitations) the flocking would land on the bottom of the bore and give an uneven finish.
The best phosphate baths are those that are run constantly and checked regularly for free acid. Whenever the tank sits at temperature without 'working' things are diverging from nominal and will cause trouble at some point.
When done right, there's few things that are as nice looking and useful as a good phosphate coating. It soaks up lubrication like a sponge, acts as it's own 'dry film' lubrication on occasion and is also a great high-pressure wear reducer that can eliminate galling and reduce running friction.
Amen to that! One of the best finishes as far as looks and usage go in my book. This is why I don't fully understand the craze for far-out coatings on things like bolt carrier groups-they are simply not needed.
BufordTJustice
07-22-14, 15:29
Amen to that! One of the best finishes as far as looks and usage go in my book. This is why I don't fully understand the craze for far-out coatings on things like bolt carrier groups-they are simply not needed.
I agree. I experimented with all the coatings and have come full circle back to loving phosphate coatings. As Phreakish stated, the ability to wick and release lubricant when the part gets hot is very valuable. Especially when combined with lubes such as FireClean.
EDIT: I'll stick with BCM and LMT for my BCG sources. Reasonable prices and the quality isn't a variable.
Uh yeah, whew right over my head, will also just stick with BCM bcg's, and a few others. It is great to hear the technical explanation as to why parts and finishes are not created equal, and often times, not applied properly...even if it isn't understood.
IG's class was a very humbling experience for me. I hadn't been doing bad with my tinkering and building, but I realized that I still had a lot to learn. Him teaching us how to properly examine our components was what led to him finding the issues with that AR-Stoner BCG. I couldn't tell from the pic or remember from class if it had YFS screws in the carrier, but some in the class did.
The right components and procedures are out there and readily available, it is just up the manufacturers and DIY'ers to make use of it.
Amen to that! One of the best finishes as far as looks and usage go in my book. This is why I don't fully understand the craze for far-out coatings on things like bolt carrier groups-they are simply not needed.
New technology can be a huge benefit. But when you take specifically engineered components and throw whiz-bang tech at it without consideration of all its function, there's not near the benefit to be had. There's also no technology to replace good old fashioned craftsmanship.
Why would you want it? Phosphate helps mitigate rust. It's also friable, so when the two parts come together the coating effectively 'crushes' the fine tips and peaks of the coating and can make an excellent seal without having to have mirror finished parts, as the finish will allow some surface variance to fill in as the two parts come together.
So you're saying that corrosion in Gunz's pic at the top isn't desireable?? WHATEVER!! :sarcastic:
Interesting... Any thoughts on the RTV sealant method that I've seen suggested?
I had a key bolt snap once, and the machinist who fixed it sealed it with some clear looking stuff that I could see flowing out a little. Someone else dropped the part off, so I didn't get to discuss the work at all.
Interesting... Any thoughts on the RTV sealant method that I've seen suggested?
I had a key bolt snap once, and the machinist who fixed it sealed it with some clear looking stuff that I could see flowing out a little. Someone else dropped the part off, so I didn't get to discuss the work at all.
I wouldn't use RTV unless there was no other route. I've successfully used it to seal ground surfaces that were leaking in automotive exhaust systems. It burns, and as it does the resulting carbon kind of 'grows' and plugs leaky areas. Kind of the way rust makes for a great locking nut. Unless I was in a jam in a very remote place with no hope for good parts, in which case I wouldn't have new screws or even an allen key, I wouldn't use this method.
The clear stuff in a bottle was probably rocksett. It's like a super superglue. Works great, but can make disassembly near impossible. It softens in warm water (versus with heat, like loctite) which makes it easier, but it doesn't always work. Especially if the area is very well sealed!
When it comes to gas keys, I wouldn't rely on sealants though. It can seem like added insurance, but if applied carelessly it can cause issues. It's definitely an area where less is more. Then again, if the parts won't seal as-is then there's something else wrong. If whoever made the parts can't keep them flat enough to seal, how can they be trusted to make the bore in the carrier correct? Or a bolt to spec?
geaux2sleep
07-22-14, 16:07
flash hider was improperly timed.
Pardon what seems like a silly question...but, what flash hiders need timing? Are we just talking an A2? Learn me something. I've got a couple of SiCo 3 prongs and was told they didn't need to be timed. Just curious as to what flash hiders do you commonly see timed incorrectly.
Thanks!
Pardon what seems like a silly question...but, what flash hiders need timing? Are we just talking an A2? Learn me something. I've got a couple of SiCo 3 prongs and was told they didn't need to be timed. Just curious as to what flash hiders do you commonly see timed incorrectly.
Thanks!
Even a basic A2 need correct timing.
donlapalma
07-22-14, 17:19
Why would you want it? Phosphate helps mitigate rust. It's also friable, so....
I was just getting ready to type this same EXACT thing, but you beat me to it!!! :sarcastic: Thanks for sharing Phreakish.
geaux2sleep
07-22-14, 17:22
Even a basic A2 need correct timing.
Others? When you say Even the A2 needs correct timing, I'm assuming you mean there are others that require timing. How about 3 prong variants? 4 prong variants? Would it be at the manufacturers discression?
Not sure how to explain this. There is a proper way to install an A2. When done correctly the muzzle device is considered timed/aligned. The same with a Battle Comp, some Surefire mounts, AAC, etc..
Pardon what seems like a silly question...but, what flash hiders need timing? Are we just talking an A2? Learn me something. I've got a couple of SiCo 3 prongs and was told they didn't need to be timed. Just curious as to what flash hiders do you commonly see timed incorrectly.
Thanks!
IG's class was a very humbling experience for me.
Time for Paul to host a class from IG. I could kill a few birds with one stone...
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Grand58742
07-22-14, 17:36
Time for Paul to host a class from IG. I could kill a few birds with one stone...
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Here's to hoping he can work something out on the OKC area. Or nearby.
geaux2sleep
07-22-14, 17:45
Not sure how to explain this. There is a proper way to install an A2. When done correctly the muzzle device is considered timed/aligned. The same with a Battle Comp, some Surefire mounts, AAC, etc..
I get the A2, and the reason for timing that style of hider. That being said, an A1 wouldn't need to be timed....correct? Just properly torqued.
Also if AAC or SiCo says their three prongs don't need to be timed, do you leave it at that and take the manufacturers word for it? Or is there any particular reason for aligning one prong at 12 o'clock, as I have read in different places?
Others? When you say Even the A2 needs correct timing, I'm assuming you mean there are others that require timing. How about 3 prong variants? 4 prong variants? Would it be at the manufacturers discression?
The A2 has 5 openings that should be pointing up, and is solid on the bottom. The 3rd opening or slat, if you will, should be centered straight up, so gas is expelled upward.
A 3 or 4 prong flash hider has openings that are equally spaced around the circumference of the muzzle device, so it doesn't matter where they are located. When gas is expelled through the openings, it will be offset equally in all (3 or 4) directions.
I'd also include uneducated.
Point. Though, I might make the argument that you could chuck uneducated under the lazy category. Never meant a highly educated lazy person. But, the point is still there.
I agree with everything you said... But, be carful of the "you get what you pay for" saying. A guy I know is putting together parts and he asked quite a few questions, and one time he asked about some part and I said that saying. His reply so I'm good to go with DPMS or bushmaster, cause it's the same or more than Xgtg brand? I facepalmed myself really hard, and went though the whole thing again.
I've run into the same. The issue comes down again to you get what you pay for. Just because two companies get their parts from the same place does not mean that they are speced the same. I think we had a thread here a month or two ago, maybe longer, about barrels and I want to say it was either IG or Grant that made the point that just because two companies were getting their barrels from the same place they were not equal since the manufacturer was not just selling the barrels that they had laying around but were manufacturing them to the specs of the companies. QC is also another concern with companies. What I find telling is when you have companies that sell blemed parts. Generally they will fall into two categories in my experience. Companies that have higher QC requirements like BCM and Noveske sell blemed parts that are only cosmetic blemished and otherwise fully functional. Where I have dealt with other companies that have sold blemished parts that were not in spec. On another forum I remember seeing a blemished lower from a company that was sold as a blemished lower, finish was fine, but the magwell would not drop anything freely, and pin holes were not drilled straight if I recall correctly (Been about 2-3 years now and I remember that there was a couple issues with the lower. Ended up devolving into a should have bought an AK response because they are they greatest and never jam or break :rolleyes:) and the company refused to warranty the lower since it was sold as a blemished lower, basically leaving the poor bastard who bought it with a paper weight. If the same issue were to arise with one of the companies listed above here I would be willing to bet that they would not simply reply with a "it's not our problem, buyer beware." response.
In short, you do get what you pay for, one way or the other. At least that is my opinion and experience.
Here's to hoping he can work something out on the OKC area. Or nearby.
Seconded.
Cincinnatus
07-22-14, 18:48
Thanks for the input, Phreakish. Adherance to specifications and "craftsmanship" is why I always choose BCM! No "made in china" freaking corner-cutting!
notorious_ar15
07-22-14, 19:30
Can anyone give a recommendation of a good lower parts kit other than BCM or Colt? I was under the impression that the parts see a lower stress level than say a BCG. As long as the lower was in spec, a "middle-tier" (lower cost) LPK might be OK, but I am always open to learning more...
Cincinnatus
07-22-14, 19:41
Get one of Grant's, or a Daniel Defense kit.
geaux2sleep
07-22-14, 19:44
Can anyone give a recommendation of a good lower parts kit other than BCM or Colt? I was under the impression that the parts see a lower stress level than say a BCG. As long as the lower was in spec, a "middle-tier" (lower cost) LPK might be OK, but I am always open to learning more...
Daniel Defense gets touted as a very quality LPK. Next one I buy will be from G&R Tactical. They also have a great rep on here.
I am no expert. But, according to the majority on this forum, those above mentioned are great, quality LPK's.
Someone beat me to it ;)
It depends upon which parts you are talking about in the LPK as to whether they make a big difference. Grant's kit is a great choice when he has it, but it all depends on which parts you will actually use from the kit.
I went with a DD LPK which I was told is the same as Colt (Schmidt?). The trigger left a lot to be desired, very gritty. I replaced it with a RRA National Match 2 stage trigger and so far I am very happy. It is so much smoother, breaks clean and crisp. One day I will step up to a Geissele.
Hopefully not going too off topic, but taking from these two points:
...a broken hammer spring ...
Him [IG] teaching us how to properly examine our components
This was probably one of the biggest take-aways from the course: inspection & diagnosis of your weapon - knowing the components and if there is an issue. The broken hammer spring was on a duty weapon I believe, and luckily it was caught during the class; an issue you wouldn't want to find out while in harm's way.
I went with a DD LPK which I was told is the same as Colt (Schmidt?). The trigger left a lot to be desired, very gritty. I replaced it with a RRA National Match 2 stage trigger and so far I am very happy. It is so much smoother, breaks clean and crisp. One day I will step up to a Geissele.
Those RRA 2stage triggers seem to shit the bed at higher round counts. Might want to save for an SSA sooner than you already were.
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The broken hammer spring was on a duty weapon I believe, and luckily it was caught during the class; an issue you wouldn't want to find out while in harm's way.
I believe that the malfunctions that the firearm was experiencing were tell tale signs of the issue....light primer strikes and something else of which I can't recall?
The best/worst thing I ever did was buy an S2G trigger, thus now, Geissele is my first purchase for a new rifle if it doesn't already have one.
Point. Though, I might make the argument that you could chuck uneducated under the lazy category. Never meant a highly educated lazy person. But, the point is still there.
I've run into the same. The issue comes down again to you get what you pay for. Just because two companies get their parts from the same place does not mean that they are speced the same. I think we had a thread here a month or two ago, maybe longer, about barrels and I want to say it was either IG or Grant that made the point that just because two companies were getting their barrels from the same place they were not equal since the manufacturer was not just selling the barrels that they had laying around but were manufacturing them to the specs of the companies. QC is also another concern with companies. What I find telling is when you have companies that sell blemed parts. Generally they will fall into two categories in my experience. Companies that have higher QC requirements like BCM and Noveske sell blemed parts that are only cosmetic blemished and otherwise fully functional. Where I have dealt with other companies that have sold blemished parts that were not in spec. On another forum I remember seeing a blemished lower from a company that was sold as a blemished lower, finish was fine, but the magwell would not drop anything freely, and pin holes were not drilled straight if I recall correctly (Been about 2-3 years now and I remember that there was a couple issues with the lower. Ended up devolving into a should have bought an AK response because they are they greatest and never jam or break :rolleyes:) and the company refused to warranty the lower since it was sold as a blemished lower, basically leaving the poor bastard who bought it with a paper weight. If the same issue were to arise with one of the companies listed above here I would be willing to bet that they would not simply reply with a "it's not our problem, buyer beware." response.
In short, you do get what you pay for, one way or the other. At least that is my opinion and experience.
Again I agree, but it I think it should be "you get what and whom you pay for". Better parts equal better weapon reguardless of cost. I have had some great deals on parts waiting for sale, again it goes back to whom you buy from as well as "you get what you pay for". Understand what your saying, hope you do the same.
Just because two companies get their parts from the same place does not mean that they are speced the same.
I wish more people realized this. Manufacturing is about producing the part to the requirements in the best possible way without falling out of the requirements 'zone'. We use drawings to describe parts, and often it's not just the numbers and tolerances (I love how most folks refer to clearances as 'tolerances') but how the part is described that makes the difference.
I've seen 'sloppy' parts made that cost as much to make as 'tight' ones simply because the drawing was a soup sandwich for the 'sloppy' part. Good drawings cannot be created without knowing how the part will be made, and the same goes for design. It seems those that grew up in a time when mills and lathes were still running in our high schools understand this better since they're more likely to have seen what it takes to make parts. Those that didn't seem to have a notion that machine shops have these 'magic machines' into which rocks and metal bits are shoveled and out the other side comes finished barrels and flash hiders.
I should add to my previous comment about buying reputable parts: it's a clue as to who makes the better parts when you look at what quality dealers offer. You'll rarely see reputable dealers selling parts that are considered no good. I'm not talking retailers that sell anything people will buy, but those that specialize in higher quality and reliability.
I wish more people realized this. Manufacturing is about producing the part to the requirements in the best possible way without falling out of the requirements 'zone'. We use drawings to describe parts, and often it's not just the numbers and tolerances (I love how most folks refer to clearances as 'tolerances') but how the part is described that makes the difference.
I've seen 'sloppy' parts made that cost as much to make as 'tight' ones simply because the drawing was a soup sandwich for the 'sloppy' part. Good drawings cannot be created without knowing how the part will be made, and the same goes for design. It seems those that grew up in a time when mills and lathes were still running in our high schools understand this better since they're more likely to have seen what it takes to make parts. Those that didn't seem to have a notion that machine shops have these 'magic machines' into which rocks and metal bits are shoveled and out the other side comes finished barrels and flash hiders.
I should add to my previous comment about buying reputable parts: it's a clue as to who makes the better parts when you look at what quality dealers offer. You'll rarely see reputable dealers selling parts that are considered no good. I'm not talking retailers that sell anything people will buy, but those that specialize in higher quality and reliability.
Phreakish,
With the theme of this thread, I have to ask...Will BCM ever produce/sell a LPK?
Phreakish,
With the theme of this thread, I have to ask...Will BCM ever produce/sell a LPK?
As with most questions of that nature, I'll have to give the stock response: no comment.
As with most questions of that nature, I'll have to give the stock response: no comment.
OK, I have wondered for a long time, so I have to ask a serious question. Why do you carry a DPMS LPK? It's confusing to me, and hurts a little bit deep down inside.
I wish more people realized this. Manufacturing is about producing the part to the requirements in the best possible way without falling out of the requirements 'zone'. We use drawings to describe parts, and often it's not just the numbers and tolerances (I love how most folks refer to clearances as 'tolerances') but how the part is described that makes the difference.
I've seen 'sloppy' parts made that cost as much to make as 'tight' ones simply because the drawing was a soup sandwich for the 'sloppy' part. Good drawings cannot be created without knowing how the part will be made, and the same goes for design. It seems those that grew up in a time when mills and lathes were still running in our high schools understand this better since they're more likely to have seen what it takes to make parts. Those that didn't seem to have a notion that machine shops have these 'magic machines' into which rocks and metal bits are shoveled and out the other side comes finished barrels and flash hiders.
I should add to my previous comment about buying reputable parts: it's a clue as to who makes the better parts when you look at what quality dealers offer. You'll rarely see reputable dealers selling parts that are considered no good. I'm not talking retailers that sell anything people will buy, but those that specialize in higher quality and reliability.
From my days long ago working for industry I can also say there is much more to making a part than just the machining. It is pretty much a team effort. There are folks who make no product what-so-ever, but are an integral part of the process. The gauge lab where measuring instruments are routinely pulled off the line and recalibrated. If any of you ever get a chance to check out one of these labs please do so. Some of their work tables will be made of granite about a foot or so in thickness. There are tool and die makers who make the tooling, regrind, resurface, and rebuild instruments to keep them operational. When I was in metal processing (phosphate, electroless Ni, anodize, passivation) we had to submit parts and treated test plates to the qc folks on a regular basis. I logged treated plates daily for my own purposes so if something went wrong I could check back and see how the process looked on past days or past years even. We monitored the baths using titrations and statistical analysis methods. We were required to keep our statistical graphs hanging on the wall and to update upper and lower control limits daily. I really enjoyed working with this type of data and this type of process control. There is a lot that goes into making good parts and most of the time end users don't realize just how much effort went into that part. Guys, I promise you it is like IG said, "parts aint parts".
OK, I have wondered for a long time, so I have to ask a serious question. Why do you carry a DPMS LPK? It's confusing to me, and hurts a little bit deep down inside.
I honestly can't speak to that. I'm only involved with parts we have made for us, I don't decide what gets put on the webstore. Perhaps its overwhelming demand?
From my days long ago working for industry I can also say there is much more to making a part than just the machining. It is pretty much a team effort. There are folks who make no product what-so-ever, but are an integral part of the process. The gauge lab where measuring instruments are routinely pulled off the line and recalibrated. If any of you ever get a chance to check out one of these labs please do so. Some of their work tables will be made of granite about a foot or so in thickness. There are tool and die makers who make the tooling, regrind, resurface, and rebuild instruments to keep them operational. When I was in metal processing (phosphate, electroless Ni, anodize, passivation) we had to submit parts and treated test plates to the qc folks on a regular basis. I logged treated plates daily for my own purposes so if something went wrong I could check back and see how the process looked on past days or past years even. We monitored the baths using titrations and statistical analysis methods. We were required to keep our statistical graphs hanging on the wall and to update upper and lower control limits daily. I really enjoyed working with this type of data and this type of process control. There is a lot that goes into making good parts and most of the time end users don't realize just how much effort went into that part. Guys, I promise you it is like IG said, "parts aint parts".
Well put.
I honestly can't speak to that. I'm only involved with parts we have made for us, I don't decide what gets put on the webstore. Perhaps its overwhelming demand?
Fair enough. I was just curious. Thank you.
Considered starting a new thread, but I think these pics are valid here, in regards to parts not being parts, and not all manufacturers are the same. I also think, anyone who ever claims that all AR parts are the same and come from the same place will be pretty much shut up here. At least until they come up with another rationalization why their Shrubmaster is a just as good.
Below are pics of a RRA BCG(Top), a Bushy BCG(Middle), and a BCM BCG(Bottom). Now, obviously the BCM is the only FA group out of the three, but the differences that I noticed that stood out to me was the difference in the cuts at the rear between the RRA and the Bushy. Both are semi BCGs, but damn I wouldn't have thought the differences would be that much, if at all. Anyway, considering the theme of the thread, I thought some might find this interesting.
Oh and yes, the staking on the RRA and Bushy BCG do suck in comparison, though I think we all knew that going in.
27487
27488
27489
I should add to my previous comment about buying reputable parts: it's a clue as to who makes the better parts when you look at what quality dealers offer. You'll rarely see reputable dealers selling parts that are considered no good. I'm not talking retailers that sell anything people will buy, but those that specialize in higher quality and reliability.
OK, I have wondered for a long time, so I have to ask a serious question. Why do you carry a DPMS LPK? It's confusing to me, and hurts a little bit deep down inside.
I think those quotes go more hand and hand.
But I am a firm believer that you get what u pay for and not all parts are created equal. I think a lot of it has to do with gun shops. I hear the guy from behind the counter saying all the time to the customers "you want a bushmaster or rra ar15 because they are the best".
I believe that he was talking about the parts that have their name on them. I can get over the fact that they have something in their retail store that I don't want to buy. It doesn't have their name on it, so they aren't making quality claims for it. Maybe it is a test, or maybe there is demand and they are a business. There have been times, when making a purchase from BCM's retail site, that I wanted to pick up a LPK or 2 and that particular kit is the only option. It's ok, I source them elsewhere. I still go back when I'm looking for what I think they do best: bolts, BCG's, uppers, etc.
I believe that he was talking about the parts that have their name on them. I can get over the fact that they have something in their retail store that I don't want to buy. It doesn't have their name on it, so they aren't making quality claims for it. Maybe it is a test, or maybe there is demand and they are a business. There have been times, when making a purchase from BCM's retail site, that I wanted to pick up a LPK or 2 and that particular kit is the only option. It's ok, I source them elsewhere. I still go back when I'm looking for what I think they do best: bolts, BCG's, uppers, etc.
I see your point. I guess I just misread/misinterpreted his post. But I would like to see BCM making a LPK.
I am poor, but refuse to use sub standard parts on a build; therefore it takes me quite a while to actually put a rifle together. I also learned this past Tuesday from a LGS employee that I have been doing things wrong anyway. He told me not to torque the barrel nut, just line up the little tab with the hole in the receiver and hand tighten the barrel nut unless you are trying to be super accurate. At that point I found a polite way to take my leave.
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I am poor, but refuse to use sub standard parts on a build; therefore it takes me quite a while to actually put a rifle together. I also learned this past Tuesday from a LGS employee that I have been doing things wrong anyway. He told me not to torque the barrel nut, just line up the little tab with the hole in the receiver and hand tighten the barrel nut unless you are trying to be super accurate. At that point I found a polite way to take my leave.
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You guys need to stop being so nice to stupid people, your killing me.
I am poor, but refuse to use sub standard parts on a build; therefore it takes me quite a while to actually put a rifle together. I also learned this past Tuesday from a LGS employee that I have been doing things wrong anyway. He told me not to torque the barrel nut, just line up the little tab with the hole in the receiver and hand tighten the barrel nut unless you are trying to be super accurate. At that point I found a polite way to take my leave.
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There you have it folks, the expert at the LGS has spoken. I wish that I'd known all along that I didn't have to tighten by barrel nuts per spec! Maybe that's the spec for Crapmaster, DPMS and RRA?
Beaver2334
07-24-14, 19:47
Why buy shitty parts?
People are cheap and lazy that's why!
I don't think that is exactly why in every scenario and is a bit harsh.
My first AR-15 was a Doublestar. It wasn't that I couldn't afford a better gun, its just that I had never owned one and wanted to make the leap with a $559 purchase to see if I liked the platform, as opposed to dropping $1,200 on a Colt that I might not end up liking. It had nothing to do with being cheap, nor lazy, just didn't want to drop as much money on a product, not knowing if I was going to like it or not.
Once I found out I liked the platform, the Doublestar was gone and now all I own are BCM's.
Not everyone has need a 1K+ AR-15, especially if they have other platforms that they rely on.
wildcard600
07-24-14, 20:16
I don't think that is exactly why in every scenario and is a bit harsh.
I agree that its a pretty large oversimplification. MY AR's have a couple of "shitty" parts as they are both DTI lowers with CMMG LPK's. Now the LPK's I will agree that I'm still using them because I am "cheap" and not about to throw away $100 worth of parts to replace something that is not broken, but on the DTI lowers I bought the best that was available locally and non of the FFL's in my area really seemed all the interested in doing any kind of special order for me to get a BCM lower.
I know there is the adage about if you have to force someone to take your money then you shouldn't be a patron to that establishment and I agree, but in the end that would mean I wouldn't have a rifle at all or would have to buy some piece of shit complete rifle that they keep in stock (shrubmasta, dPMS, RRA, etc). When Grant opens up a satellite store in my state, I will be the first one lined up to buy a lower however.
YMMV
MorphCross
07-24-14, 20:19
Not everyone has need a 1K+ AR-15, especially if they have other platforms that they rely on.
I don't think that really is the issue here, it's where those people insist that we are wasting our money on 1k BCMs, Colts, DDs, and Noveskes. We all place different values on our purchases. For example, I don't run steel case ammunition through my 5.56 platforms. One reason is so I can maintain a semi consistent velocity/energy when compared to my defensive loads. I could probably save a bit by running steel but then I miss out on the grand experience of recollecting brass for reloading purposes.:jester:
When Grant opens up a satellite store in my state, I will be the first one lined up to buy a lower however.
No one in your vicinity to do transfers?
Beaver2334
07-24-14, 20:40
I don't think that really is the issue here, it's where those people insist that we are wasting our money on 1k BCMs, Colts, DDs, and Noveskes. We all place different values on our purchases. For example, I don't run steel case ammunition through my 5.56 platforms. One reason is so I can maintain a semi consistent velocity/energy when compared to my defensive loads. I could probably save a bit by running steel but then I miss out on the grand experience of recollecting brass for reloading purposes.:jester:
I think that runs both ways. I see plenty of people with Colts, DD, Noveske, BCM, etc that talk down to people who own entry level AR-15's. It's a two way street. However, everyone has their own intrinsic value on firearms, which can vary on need, role, want, etc.
Like I've stated before, I run BCM exclusively now. I don't see the point in paying the extra for a DD, Noveske, etc. I know my rifle is one I can trust defending myself and my family if need be and be a fun as hell range toy in the process! However, I won't talk down to anyone who owns a better or worse one than I, as I have no idea of what their situation is.
I have a lot of friends who like to shoot my guns and my ammo. I've thought about building a PSA rifle, specifically for being a range toy for my needy friends, who can't afford/don't want to shell out the cash, for their own rifles. I also allow them to only shoot my steel cased ammo. It's not that I'm a jerk, but I don't see the point in allowing them to plink with my more expensive factory ammo, as thats all they are ever going to be doing with my rifles, is plinking.
Well, despite the apparent thread drift, all parts ain't created equally.
wildcard600
07-24-14, 22:04
Well, despite the apparent thread drift, all parts ain't created equally.
I didn't see that anyone was debating that point, only that not everyone chooses "substandard" parts out of stupidity.
Best way to convert the "cheap gun guys" to "buy quality guys" is to let them shoot a good system with good parts. (This time at least)
My buddy with a stock del-ton sport never shot my setup until recently. His rocks a low end variable optic and some unknown sling.
He's always busting my balls about how much I've spent on gear. I just take the abuse and smile.
Well he finally ran my weapon. Good rifle with ssa-e trigger, magpul moe + grip, vfg, vtac sling, and the list goes on.
He ran 2 mags through it and he walked back and said "there is a big between how these guns shot and feel. I had no idea there was that much difference." I said "well they both go bang."
He's now thinking he wants to upgrade. I then told him about how Colts are available with a rail for $1100, maybe less even. He liked that idea. I'll see what he shows up with next time.
The Lgs told him to buy the delton because the are the same as the expensive ones.
Parts are not parts, in just about every situation.
BufordTJustice
07-25-14, 09:50
Best way to convert the "cheap gun guys" to "buy quality guys" is to let them shoot a good system with good parts. (This time at least)
My buddy with a stock del-ton sport never shot my setup until recently. His rocks a low end variable optic and some unknown sling.
He's always busting my balls about how much I've spent on gear. I just take the abuse and smile.
Well he finally ran my weapon. Good rifle with ssa-e trigger, magpul moe + grip, vfg, vtac sling, and the list goes on.
He ran 2 mags through it and he walked back and said "there is a big between how these guns shot and feel. I had no idea there was that much difference." I said "well they both go bang."
He's now thinking he wants to upgrade. I then told him about how Colts are available with a rail for $1100, maybe less even. He liked that idea. I'll see what he shows up with next time.
The Lgs told him to buy the delton because the are the same as the expensive ones.
Parts are not parts, in just about every situation.
I have had this happen many times with BCM/Colt/LMT guns vs crapwagons. They indeed shoot better.
It's always an eye opening experience. The smart ones even ask why... and they get a lecture on gas port and chamber dimensions, et al.
Seen a guy at the range one time with his A2 flash hider clocked wrong. I'm talking inverted.
He Told me it was to keep the sight picture clear...
I had to let that one go. Who am I to be the one to not let someone enjoy their cluster foxtrot.
Those RRA 2stage triggers seem to shit the bed at higher round counts. Might want to save for an SSA sooner than you already were.
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Yes sir I have read that, I plan to have it long gone before that.
I agree that its a pretty large oversimplification. MY AR's have a couple of "shitty" parts as they are both DTI lowers with CMMG LPK's. Now the LPK's I will agree that I'm still using them because I am "cheap" and not about to throw away $100 worth of parts to replace something that is not broken, but on the DTI lowers I bought the best that was available locally and non of the FFL's in my area really seemed all the interested in doing any kind of special order for me to get a BCM lower.
I know there is the adage about if you have to force someone to take your money then you shouldn't be a patron to that establishment and I agree, but in the end that would mean I wouldn't have a rifle at all or would have to buy some piece of shit complete rifle that they keep in stock (shrubmasta, dPMS, RRA, etc). When Grant opens up a satellite store in my state, I will be the first one lined up to buy a lower however.
YMMV
4 years ago when I bought my first AR the FFL I went to for the transfer of my BCM Blem Lower gave me a lecture on how I was waisting my money on the BCM when I could get a better quality, non blemished RRA for a lot less. I haven't spent a dime there since. I went to another FFL when I was looking to order a Noveske. Although this FFL was listed as a dealer on the Noveske web site, they wouldn't order one for me and wouldn't do a transfer for me either. They wanted me to buy from what they had in stock.
Long story short, I eventually found a local FFL that is more than happy to take my money to transfer or order exactly what I want, without trying to sell me any of there stock. Keep looking and I'm sure you'll be able to find that FFL.
Berserkr556
07-26-14, 12:12
" We know that not all ARs are the same and only a fool believes that parts are parts." Pat Rogers. I've loved this quote since the first time I read it years ago. I use it often when friends ask my opinion about some junk AR parts they want to buy because they're cheap. I refuse to buy any AR or AR parts that are cheap junk even though I'm poor by most people's standards.
I have never regretted paying for quality. It has always been the best "deal" over the life of the item I have purchased. Buy once cry once.
The price of an item, or the "Total Cost of Purchase" is figured when the item wears out and has to be replaced. The quality and longevity of service is the real cost of purchase, "it ain't over till the fat lady sings".. :D
Is there a good affordable LPK out there? I've heard 'buy colt! (from SAW)' or 'buy DD!' but those two break the bank. Then there's the PSA kits that people grumble about without coming to a clear consensus.
Is there a good affordable LPK out there? I've heard 'buy colt! (from SAW)' or 'buy DD!' but those two break the bank. Then there's the PSA kits that people grumble about without coming to a clear consensus.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SPK99796
$60 isn't too bad. I never use the standard trigger anyway though.
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http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SPK99796
$60 isn't too bad. I never use the standard trigger anyway though.
I've got standard triggers coming out my ARSE do to Pappabear having me install aftermarket on most of his guns.
Is there a good affordable LPK out there? I've heard 'buy colt! (from SAW)' or 'buy DD!' but those two break the bank. Then there's the PSA kits that people grumble about without coming to a clear consensus.
This exact discussion is going on HERE (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?155286-Good-LPKs-These-Days), right now.
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