View Full Version : Night Sight usefullness
I have noticed during the last couple of IDPA matches that in the dark room my night sights are not as visible as I imagined they would be in a dark fluid environment. I use the back of palms handling technique for holding the firearm and light. Im using brand new Trijicon HD's so I know it isn't the brightness of the sights. I have tried illuminating the sights and room by holding the light separate from the gun and close to the support side near my head and this seems to do the trick even with plain non-illuminated sights. It begs the question, are night sights all that necessary particularly with the high number of people using gold beeds? To add to my confusion when last I took classes with LAV and Ken Hackathorn (when I was younger) I could see the night sight much better in the dark. Thoughts?
wildcard600
07-24-14, 09:44
are you talking about self illuminated tritium, or just high visibility (white dot, gold,etc.) ?
if talking abiut tritium or similar, personally i think they are useless for a civilian/police shooting situation as the light from your illuminator tends to wash out the sight picture, at least in my experience.
in a military application where target ID may not be critical and you may be firing in total darkness i feel there is a usefulness.
YMMV
*edit* sorry i see you said Trijicon HD which i will assume are tritium sights.
I did some tests years ago and concluded that they were of some benefit, but not as much as people assume. Areas of weakness:
1) When shooting at dawn or dusk, or in general low light, there is a considerable range of dimness where the sights are hard to see, but the trit is not visible. Try lining your sights up at dusk on a dark target or a target in the shade/shadows. Too dark to see the sights, too light to see the trit.
2) In complete darkness, yes I can see the sights. But I still need target ID, so I'm going to light 'em up with a flashlight. At that point the sights are silhouetted against the target and trit dots are not visible.
Under the same circumstances, a gold bead does pretty well. If the gold bead is set up right, you will get a glint of reflection off of it even in dawn/dusk/twilight conditions. Of course in total darkness, the gold bead does nothing for you.
Bottom Line: I don't think the trit hurts anything, but it does a lot less for you than most folks assume. The gold bead does extend your sight capability into low light conditions.
I don't consider it important that my new guns have night sights, and I don't retrofit night sights to my guns anymore.
Howdy,
Basically what ^^^^^^^^ said.
I feel they are a waste of money, especially in a military setting.
If you are worried about being able to see at night of during low lights conditions in your home install LED night lights in every room. Helps when you get up to go to the bathroom, get a snack or take the dog out after bed time.
Paul
Agree. I am an old school bullseye shooter and even most of my carry guns have plain black sights. Once you turn on a flashlight the tritium is gone - in situations dark enough to make the tritium useful you the. Have no target Id so I can say I only ever had one pistol with night sights ( got a set for free long story) and they made zero difference in acquiring a sight pic in low light
NCPatrolAR
07-24-14, 14:14
Haven't been in a situation yet where I said "jeez; I wish this tritium wasn't in my sights". To each their own though
Wishing they weren't tritium, and having actually needed the tritium are very different things. I've never actually needed the tritium, but I'm not bummed that I installed them (tritium front, black rear).
How does fiber optic stack up? More useful in the day, equally useless at night? Potentially more fragile because of the exposed rod, if that's even an actual problem?
How does fiber optic stack up? More useful in the day, equally useless at night? Potentially more fragile because of the exposed rod, if that's even an actual problem?
I'm curious about this as well. Last idpa match I shot (daytime) I saw them on another fellows gun and they looked awesome in daylight.
I'm curious about this as well. Last idpa match I shot (daytime) I saw them on another fellows gun and they looked awesome in daylight.
The FO rod is too fragile for duty or carry.
I can think of a number of gun-point incidents in which I used self-luminous tritium dots to bolster verification of sight alignment in poor lighting conditions. In some of those, a higher visibility non-luminous sight may have worked as well. More recent low-light training using my HDs and I-Dots supports that. While those are still tritium sights, I had more to work with at a glance.
I like having the option, but want my rear as uncluttered as possible.
The FO rod is too fragile for duty or carry.
Thanks.
kantstudien
07-24-14, 18:50
If you are holding the light in such a way that it also illuminates the pistol while lighting up the target, then yes you wouldn't be able to see the tritium very well.
But that would be an issue of learning to use the light in a different manner such as Harries.
The FO rod is too fragile for duty or carry.
How so?
I have had a dawson fiber optic front sight on one of my Glock 19s (the other runs straight black sights) for at least 3 years of daily carry in all sorts of environments without a single issue.
And if the fiber optic falls out...the sights still work fine.
Guns-up.50
07-24-14, 19:13
How so?
And if the fiber optic falls out...the sights still work fine.
This may be so, however, if you drop the gun, bang it on something you are more likely to damage the exposed f/o. This makes it inherently more fragile than an inclosed tritium vial or brass bead.
Keep in mind duty guns take more abuse than you average ccw.
NCPatrolAR
07-24-14, 21:06
Wishing they weren't tritium, and having actually needed the tritium are very different things.
Yeah; I should have clarified and stated that during felony traffic stops at night, dynamic search warrant services at night (or where reduced illumination is present), building searches, training in shoot houses, etc I never said that I wish tritium wasn't in my sights.
...
If you are worried about being able to see at night of during low lights conditions in your home install LED night lights in every room. Helps when you get up to go to the bathroom, get a snack or take the dog out after bed time.
Paul
...then time yourself getting a good 100% positive sight picture in a high stress situation with said lighting.
Just running around the house, on a cloudy day with lights off(dry runs?), tritium is extremely usefull. Total dark, you will have a light to shadow the sights, but tritium still helps keep them aligned with lights out. Bright - no need. The in-between lighting (which seems to be most of the time) is where they are worth their price 5x over IMO. I've never had a problem picking up my ameriglo idot pros. Cant say the same about my factory sights.
I can see stuff, like boxes, furnature, people, etc around the bedroom at night, but I cant make out sights without struggle. I do not want to struggle with a stranger coming up the stairs, and I may not want to use a light depending on the situation.
The FO rod is too fragile for duty or carry.
There are some folks who may disagree with this statement.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=8613
Im well aware of the abuse duty weapons take. However, My pistol is in a holster 99% of the time with the front sight completely protected. The only time my pistol has seen true abuse was in training. I have owned that Glock 19 since 2004 and somehow in 12+ training classes and shooting biweekly the F/O hasn't managed to break.
In that same period of time I have seen several tritium vials either break or go bad. They are fairly fragile themselves, being a container filled with H3 gas. And again, on the 1/Million chance that either of them break, the sights still work fine in most instances. With a WML they are somewhat redundant (But I believe in redundancy) so I think the fragility of F/O sights. Also reference the article and comments section posted above.
Rick
Staying on topic-remember that my issue as i am getting older and am doing more IDPA is that the night sights are just becoming less visible in dark rooms. It seems that simply lighting the slide and the target is more effective. I had not thought of the in between times where there is diminished light. I guess in my experiece in IDPA its either light or totally dark. What NCPatrolAR said answered my question in that there exists those times where there is darkness and some amount of ambiant light. At those times the tritium is helpful.
How so?
I have had a dawson fiber optic front sight on one of my Glock 19s (the other runs straight black sights) for at least 3 years of daily carry in all sorts of environments without a single issue.
And if the fiber optic falls out...the sights still work fine.
Same here. I even use a VG 2 frequently, no issues.
AND I use an adjustable rear, which seems to be a point of contention with some people.
I find tritium virtually worthless. Can't see the glow unless your eyes have adapted (like you just woke up), and then once you hit any significant amount of ambient light I can't see the glow anymore. When you can see the glow, you end up seeing the back one more than the front.
Same here. I even use a VG 2 frequently, no issues.
AND I use an adjustable rear, which seems to be a point of contention with some people.
I find tritium virtually worthless. Can't see the glow unless your eyes have adapted (like you just woke up), and then once you hit any significant amount of ambient light I can't see the glow anymore. When you can see the glow, you end up seeing the back one more than the front.
I've run the Dawson F/O front sight on one G17 and one M&P and lost the fiber both times in a training course on the third day each time. This is with the thinner F/O rod they offer. Thicker might be better in this case.
I finished the courses just fine, because as you note, once you lose the rod you basically have a black front with a hole in it. It's sort of distracting when you're not used to it to be staring through that hole in the sight blade, but you can hit targets just fine. That being said, speaking from my experience, the rod has fallen out eventually. When I still ran them, I took to carrying spare rod around in my range bag, just in case. That yours or Mr. Yam's experience is different, that's fine and perfectly probable, I'm speaking from mine.
Back on topic, I haven't found night sights useful at night per se, but rather of varying usefulness in low light from "not at all useful" to "nice to have but not critical".
Guns-up.50
07-25-14, 08:44
Tritium in many cases, is not the aiming point. It is a mere reference of where the sights are. Yes in the day/or in enough light you cant see tritium, but you dont need it either, use the sights as if they're black. In a perfect world yes your light may light your sights enough to shoot well, however if you are in a gun fight at night, your world is far from perfect. So plan on shooting from off or awkward positions where your light may not help you as much.
Tritium is a tool in your box, if you need it use it, if not dont, but its good to have around.
Tritium is particularly useful for the transitional points in dusk and dawn I find.
The fiber rod fragility thing is silly as a few people have pointed out, when the rod breaks you fall back to rugged steal black sights.
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...It seems that simply lighting the slide and the target is more effective...
It's more effective to just light up the target. Against the pool of light, the sights become a black silhouette and very easy to see and use. Illuminating the sights and slide from behind them with a strong light will wash them out and with older eyes, glare will be a real problem. Illuminating them from the side or an angle can result in some strange shadowing.
Tritium dims over time. I know you said you've got new sights, but how long did the sights sit on the shelf after being made? How long did the vials sit in the parts bin before the sights were made? But you do make a good point about older eyes. My vision isn't as sharp and bright as it used to be either :)
They are 2013 HD Trijicons. This is on two separate G17's. I guess I just didn't think in a dark room coming from a bright outdoor scenario they would become so useless to me. Had to just shoot using muscle memory the first time. Not good. The second time having thought it through I abandoned the palm on palm holding technique for what I was taught at Gunsite was the old FBI technique. With LAV and Ken the palm on palm which directs light like the Surefire/Harries technique seem to work out well. I believe what is going on here is that with LAV and Ken the light change from day to night was gradual. In IDPA you go from a bright outdoor environment to pitch dark in seconds. Re-learning holding techniques after decades of doing it one way is not easy. I am doing it by necessity. It may be time for another night class.
Tritium is particularly useful for the transitional points in dusk and dawn I find.
Me too. I just mocked this up a little, since I have the house to myself for a couple of days. I find that night sights do well when aiming into a darker space from a not so dark space. They also work fairly well in less that optimally illuminated areas, like darkened rooms, vs completely pitch dark ones.
Handheld or weapon mounted white light tends to mitigate this advantage, but those aren't options for everyone, and if working under a time constraint (be it clock or a sudden threat) grabbing and activating a light might not be possible.
richiecotite
07-25-14, 15:07
In my house, I leave the hallway light on (6 yr old is afraid of the dark) but the lights in my bedroom are off. If someone broke in and came up the stairs in the hall, they wouldn't be able to see me, but I could see them. In that instance, I wouldn't need a white light to identify target, and the tritium works well.
Haven't been in a situation yet where I said "jeez; I wish this tritium wasn't in my sights". To each their own though
The above quote works for me but I find having to re-evaluate what I thought were definitive ideas about Tritium. This is why practice, training and competition (IDPA) are essential. Finding out that the night sights don't work as I thought they would is easier to deal with after a match. In a SD situation the learning curve could be fatal.
As a side note, I once dropped my Surefire in a dark room during a match during a tactical reload. Finding it was impossible. Dealing with the targets without the light also impossible Another re-evaluation.
Here are some random thoughts/conclusions.
1. If you are using a weapon mounted light, you will need to use a tritium dot to see your sights. With that said, if your eyes have not adjusted to the current lighting conditions, you won't see the tritium dots. Lasers are KING for any low light situations and trump all other options.
2. If you use a fiber front for your defensive HG, you will need to carry a handheld light and embrace the "temple hold" (shooting strong hand only) to get the MOST out of these sights in extreme low light/no light.
3. The green fiber is picked up MUCH better by the human eye in lower lighting conditions. So avoid the red fibers.
YMMV.
C4
Here are some random thoughts/conclusions.
1. If you are using a weapon mounted light, you will need to use a tritium dot to see your sights. With that said, if your eyes have not adjusted to the current lighting conditions, you won't see the tritium dots. Lasers are KING for any low light situations and trump all other options.
2. If you use a fiber front for your defensive HG, you will need to carry a handheld light and embrace the "temple hold" (shooting strong hand only) to get the MOST out of these sights in extreme low light/no light.
3. The green fiber is picked up MUCH better by the human eye in lower lighting conditions. So avoid the red fibers.
YMMV.
C4
Thank you Grant. I believe I will be practicing the temple hold with and without tritium.
Here are some random thoughts/conclusions.
1. If you are using a weapon mounted light, you will need to use a tritium dot to see your sights. With that said, if your eyes have not adjusted to the current lighting conditions, you won't see the tritium dots. Lasers are KING for any low light situations and trump all other options.
Are you saying that with WML you don't get your sights back-lit as you would with a handheld light?
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acaixguard
07-25-14, 18:00
Lasers are KING for any low light situations and trump all other options.
Do you feel an RMR is just as effective lasers in low light?
NCPatrolAR
07-25-14, 19:14
Do you feel an RMR is just as effective lasers in low light?
Not in my experience. The dual illum models suck in low light when varying light conditions start coming into play
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-25-14, 19:24
I agree that tritium is a lot better in theory than in practice, but they are worth having. As grant said, laser sights are the real solution. Pretty much every gun I own has a tritium and a laser.
I agree with the consenus that the FO rods are durable enough. However, I have found that when the rod falls out often you still have a nice bright dot from the hole drilled in your sight.
Anyone have thoughts about the Phosphor sights on HK like the P30 or VP9? I experimented with a new VP9 and found that if they taken from a lit room into low light they are very bright. I also left one in my bedroom and checked them in the middle of the night and with my eyes adjusted to the dark I could pick up the sights. In still not sure they are a valid replacement for tritium yet in a CCW and home defense situation. Thoughts?
Staying on topic-remember that my issue as i am getting older and am doing more IDPA is that the night sights are just becoming less visible in dark rooms. It seems that simply lighting the slide and the target is more effective. I had not thought of the in between times where there is diminished light. I guess in my experiece in IDPA its either light or totally dark. What NCPatrolAR said answered my question in that there exists those times where there is darkness and some amount of ambiant light. At those times the tritium is helpful.
You mentioned they seemed brighter several years ago when you took a course - tritium has a half-life of about 12 years, so at 12 years 1/2 as bright as when new, not sure if at 6 years it would be 3/4 as bright.
That, combined with aging, might also factor into the difficulty you describe.
You mentioned they seemed brighter several years ago when you took a course - tritium has a half-life of about 12 years, so at 12 years 1/2 as bright as when new, not sure if at 6 years it would be 3/4 as bright.
That, combined with aging, might also factor into the difficulty you describe.
No these are new sights. Back then I used Trijicons standard sights. HD's have some differences but the front vials themselves are the same.
Are you saying that with WML you don't get your sights back-lit as you would with a handheld light?
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Correct (in my experience).
C4
Thank you Grant. I believe I will be practicing the temple hold with and without tritium.
You are welcome. This is what Pannone teaches (FYI).
C4
Are you saying that with WML you don't get your sights back-lit as you would with a handheld light?
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If you go out into a large, dark area and essentially shine your WML into the void it is true that you will not have the contrast of reflected light to illuminate your sights.
Once you hit the light on anything (front lighting) you normally will get reflected light back that will, in essence, back light your sights allowing you to see them as a sharp silhouette.
Some surfaces don't reflect light as well as others, some are designed to be less reflective, so it is always best to be prepared, in this case I'd suggest with night sights.
Neck index and temple index techniques do provide direct illumination of the sights, but generally that is not required if the light is hitting something which reflects light back at you.
There are multiple 'married hand' flashlight techniques - Chapman, Ayoob, Rogers-Surefire, Harries - that place the light alongside and slightly below the bore axis, and of course the front sight. They provide little if any light spill onto the front sight, yet they are effective.
In the 70's most of us were rocking the old FBI technique, kel-lite at shoulder height, away from the body and slightly forward. We got by.
As I said earlier, give yourself every edge, any HD or service weapon needs night sights, additionally you need to be familiar with utilization of the flashlight in both married-hand and separate-hand configurations, good luck.
Anyone have thoughts about the Phosphor sights on HK like the P30 or VP9? I experimented with a new VP9 and found that if they taken from a lit room into low light they are very bright. I also left one in my bedroom and checked them in the middle of the night and with my eyes adjusted to the dark I could pick up the sights. In still not sure they are a valid replacement for tritium yet in a CCW and home defense situation. Thoughts?
If you charge them by shining a flashlight directly on them, they will retain the glow for about 20-30 minutes or so--at least that's as long as I can pick them out in the dark. Not all that convenient if you need them immediately. When you first charge them they glow like fiber optics in any lighting, but this effect is very short term--like a few minutes.
Just FWIW:
Night Sights VS. Fiber Optic Sights (Flashlight +…: http://youtu.be/0wPn6t7U9MU
Eurodriver
08-03-14, 05:33
I too have never wished I didn't have tritium sights.
Staying on topic-remember that my issue as i am getting older and am doing more IDPA is that the night sights are just becoming less visible in dark rooms. It seems that simply lighting the slide and the target is more effective. I had not thought of the in between times where there is diminished light. I guess in my experiece in IDPA its either light or totally dark. What NCPatrolAR said answered my question in that there exists those times where there is darkness and some amount of ambiant light. At those times the tritium is helpful.
You will not see as well at night, pure and simple. People try different prescriptions that May or may not work for you. At 40 your close vision can go south on you, you can get reader type prescription but you still may struggle with Target and sights. One or the other will be more out of focus than when you were 25.
At night your pupil opens up and you look through more of your cornea which may cause aberrations.
Old plus night equals no bueno
Yep, it sucks but we can survive.
I too have never wished I didn't have tritium sights.
It kind of depends on the distances you shoot. In D4's pistol class, there is no way you could have passed his 50yd drill with say Trijicon HD's (or anything similar where the space between the front sight and rear sight notch is big enough to drive a bus through).
I personally believe that pistols are very capable at 100yds and ROUTINELY shoot small plates at these distances. Because of this, I have set up my sights accordingly to accomplish such goals.
YMMV.
C4
Eurodriver
08-03-14, 12:41
It kind of depends on the distances you shoot. In D4's pistol class, there is no way you could have passed his 50yd drill with say Trijicon HD's (or anything similar where the space between the front sight and rear sight notch is big enough to drive a bus through).
I personally believe that pistols are very capable at 100yds and ROUTINELY shoot small plates at these distances. Because of this, I have set up my sights accordingly to accomplish such goals.
YMMV.
C4
I was referring to drawing down on some hoodrats on a rainy night and then seeing my G26 with Ameriglos tossed down the sidewalk by responding LEOs. That was two years ago and the sights are still very bright and weren't damaged at all.
I've seen Surf shoot some ridiculous shots at Kokohead. 200yards+ and I think he uses tritium sights as well but I am not positive. I know that there are better sights out there but I've found the tritium to come in very handy, now I'm hooked. Maybe its a "life experience scar" and I just need more training...
P.S. I sent you a PM I'm literally throwing cash at my computer screen for a Gen 3 FDE G19.
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