View Full Version : FBI wants 9mm handguns
Amp Mangum
07-25-14, 19:08
I think it's a smart move:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=bba2ac0f178480b6ce1c3922566274ea&tab=core&_cview=0
Moose-Knuckle
07-25-14, 19:54
Dear FBI, hello and welcome to 2014.
Eurodriver
07-25-14, 20:07
I don't blame the FBI for taking this long to change. A lot of the higher ups retiring right now were underlings in 1986.
Maybe they want to dry up our 9mm supply by making billion round purchases? I'm just kidding....but maybe.
Interesting.
The military is looking for something bigger than the 9mm and the Feds are dumping the .40.
Dear FBI....
Consider the HK VP9.
Eurodriver
07-25-14, 20:12
Interesting.
The military is looking for something bigger than the 9mm and the Feds are dumping the .40.
.mil has to use FMJ and the Feds want to hire more women.
Makes sense to me.
and the progressives want wienies in the FBI and they can't handle anything else :)
Modern 9mm JHP's, HST for instance, give 1990's .40S&W performance (which with the right load was pretty damn good) with more rounds and less recoil. This benefits both the shooter and the weapon to the detriment of the shootee. Yeah, the other calibers have also benefitted from new bullet technology but you can't undo the mag capacity and recoil factor.
.mil has to use FMJ and the Feds want to hire more women.
Makes sense to me.
Give the FBI surplus M9s.
Mauser KAR98K
07-25-14, 23:25
Paging HK.
MountainRaven
07-26-14, 01:37
Give the FBI surplus M9s.
And the FBI's guns can be given to the military.
Everybody wins!
And the search through the universe for the perfect damn pistol goes on. But what the heck--it's only taxpayer money we're blowing here.
Had my Browning High Power out quite a bit lately. The design will be 80 years old next year. Maybe--just maybe--the guns are not the problem, hm?
Maybe someone will realize that a good round with actual marksmanship (shot placement) trumps all the gun voodoo in the world. I guess we can all hope and change.
but on other forums 9mm are for wienies and a 45 will knock your bad guy down :)
sarcasm of course :)
357 sig :) split the difference and be in the half and half camp :) hahahaha
I say it should be a option so a person could carry what they want :)
Maybe someone will realize that a good round with actual marksmanship (shot placement) trumps all the gun voodoo in the world. I guess we can all hope and change.
Would be nice. Though I fear that idea is just too rational and has too much common sense to take hold.
I say it should be a option so a person could carry what they want :)
Within reason. Otherwise, if you allow people to carry personal purchased sidearms you are likely going to end up with some jackasses carrying Hi-points, Dessert Eagles, and some numbskull packing a raging judge because they are just as good, it is what everyone carries in call of battlefield fifteen, and because the latest gun rag said it was the greatest, respectfully.
That said, personally owned supplied sidearms do bring in a other logistics issues to consider.
Eurodriver
07-26-14, 07:03
Give the FBI surplus M9s.
And the FBI's guns can be given to the military.
Everybody wins!
This is why neither of you will be politicians.
Too smart.
On the other hand, does anyone know if the .mil M9s will be sold to the civvy market or just tossed to some right wing dictatorship overseas for $5 a pop?
Voodoo_Man
07-26-14, 07:06
This is not surprising. We should all be running 9mm for duty as well. It is interesting to see how things come full circle.
agree :) should have said the current 40 or the 9 they choose so the FBI decides to choose so they have a choice of two :) more what I meant :)
Would be nice. Though I fear that idea is just too rational and has too much common sense to take hold.
Within reason. Otherwise, if you allow people to carry personal purchased sidearms you are likely going to end up with some jackasses carrying Hi-points, Dessert Eagles, and some numbskull packing a raging judge because they are just as good, it is what everyone carries in call of battlefield fifteen, and because the latest gun rag said it was the greatest, respectfully.
That said, personally owned supplied sidearms do bring in a other logistics issues to consider.
Outside of Hostage Rescue and the regional SWAT teams, they should have kept their 3" S&W Model 13's.
Amp Mangum
07-26-14, 07:35
Going to be interesting to see what pistol they end up with.
platoonDaddy
07-26-14, 08:48
Going to be interesting to see what pistol they end up with.
Think they will ever make a decision and stick with it?
My PD just dumped our 6 month old SIGs for G21/22 pistols.
I didnt even get the phrase "9mm" out before I was told no. Some people dont known what they dont know (including police chiefs)
montanadave
07-26-14, 09:27
Outside of Hostage Rescue and the regional SWAT teams, they should have kept their 3" S&W Model 13's.
It was good enough for Efrem Zimbalist, Jr.
BoringGuy45
07-26-14, 11:10
Outside of Hostage Rescue and the regional SWAT teams, they should have kept their 3" S&W Model 13's.
I'd rather have thirteen to fifteen rounds of 9mm than six .38 Specials.
Think they will ever make a decision and stick with it?
No. Not as long as they have our free money to use to blow on their new toys. From the 10mm abortion to the .40 S&W caliber Smiths and Glocks after the 86 Miami shootout and now back to the good old 9mm probably shooting some bonded 147gr HP ammo.
ramairthree
07-26-14, 12:21
I still remember the pistol MTT we got back in the 80s when we traded in our .45s for M9s. Two weeks of Beretta specific instruction to introduce it.
Regular SOF units had 40+ year old pistols that were rattle trap loose, crappy magazines, etc. The reliability and accuracy of these 1911s was abysmal. Guys that bought their own .45s were spending more money on ramp polishing, etc. just to get reliable personal pistols. In the same way many newer AR owners don't understand what it was like, your options, etc. to buy an AR in the 80s and 90s, I do not think those only used to the modern 1911 selection understand what the .45 world was like then.
Sure, we thought .45 hardball was a better killer than 9mm hardball, but the new pistols themselves were very welcome.
They were accurate, reliable, and doubled your capacity.
A SIG or Glock was rare and not sure if had even seen in a movie or on TV yet.
Mel Gibson was already racking up a body count with a 92 and Bruce Willis was soon to be.
I still find Berettas very reliable and accurate. And the capacity, especially with MEC-GAR 18s and 20s, is on par with modern 9mm capacities. While DA/SA is up there with VCRs, carburetors, and other 70s/80s stuff in terms being dated-
they gave the military just what it wanted.
It has upgraded the locking blocks,
offered a reinforced slide version,
a decocker only version,
basically addressing in house any perceived or real issues with the exception
of the poor after market magazine issue the military had.
it is my understanding they could easily tool the M9 from the slide mounted safety into a frame mounted version that allows SA cocked and locked SA, AND also DA/SA capability with a safety, AND manual decocking. If that is what was contracted for. Rumor is they have not offered it for the civy market as Taurus already owns this niche, AND- they are horrible at "getting" what the civy market is looking for.
I am noticing a trend in an increased number of all metal guns showing up at production class matches (CZ, Beretta, Taurus, etc.) compared to just a few years ago. Of these types, there are a ton of Beretta parts, mags, etc. out there and 9mm is cheap.
Just interesting to see over time how the whole .45 to wonder 9 to 10mm to 10mm for girls (40) to .45 rules to "fill in blank with SA round that = .357 mag ballistics of the year" to 9mm progression.
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
07-26-14, 13:31
but on other forums 9mm are for wienies and a 45 will knock your bad guy down :)
You're way off man...usually throws him across a large room and leaves a softball sized hole......
I'd rather have thirteen to fifteen rounds of 9mm than six .38 Specials.
Yeah, you never know when you'll need to put a few in a stuck filing cabinet drawer, or take on a dangerous empty toner cartridge, maybe apprehend a runaway stapler.
MountainRaven
07-26-14, 14:04
This is why neither of you will be politicians.
Too smart.
On the other hand, does anyone know if the .mil M9s will be sold to the civvy market or just tossed to some right wing dictatorship overseas for $5 a pop?
Under the current administration, I would expect retired .mil M9s to be sold to some tinpot potato-penis. And if that is not to be their fate, I expect that they'll be destroyed.
In any case, if I were Amerigod for a day, I'd create a committee of male and female handgun gunfight survivors and charge them with selecting a compact 9mm handgun and a full-size 9mm handgun and then force all Federal LE and the military to adopt it. And then task ATK to develop some "barrier blind" 9mm cartridges for military use that happen to perform quite well in terms of expansion and penetration on human beings.
Yeah, you never know when you'll need to put a few in a stuck filing cabinet drawer, or take on a dangerous empty toner cartridge, maybe apprehend a runaway stapler.
So you don't have a problem with carrying a six-shot revolver on a daily basis and turning over your Glocks/H&Ks/1911s/&c.?
TriviaMonster
07-26-14, 17:03
Unless you just can't miss a moving, shooting target, there is safety in numbers. We have all heard about cops getting bested when they had NO backup ammo, who has ever heard someone say, "If only he had a .40"?
My PD just dumped our 6 month old SIGs for G21/22 pistols.
I didnt even get the phrase "9mm" out before I was told no. Some people dont known what they dont know (including police chiefs)
Did better than my local SO who just went from Berettas and g22s to Sig p220s. But they made sure to get CT grips for all of them...yup..
BoringGuy45
07-26-14, 22:01
Yeah, you never know when you'll need to put a few in a stuck filing cabinet drawer, or take on a dangerous empty toner cartridge, maybe apprehend a runaway stapler.
Because FBI agents never leave the office and make arrests. :rolleyes: Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
MountainRaven
07-26-14, 22:43
Because FBI agents never leave the office and make arrests. :rolleyes: Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Most of the people on this forum never make arrests in the first place, so clearly all that they need is a six-shot revolver.
;)
Under the current administration, I would expect retired .mil M9s to be sold to some tinpot potato-penis. And if that is not to be their fate, I expect that they'll be destroyed.
In any case, if I were Amerigod for a day, I'd create a committee of male and female handgun gunfight survivors and charge them with selecting a compact 9mm handgun and a full-size 9mm handgun and then force all Federal LE and the military to adopt it. And then task ATK to develop some "barrier blind" 9mm cartridges for military use that happen to perform quite well in terms of expansion and penetration on human beings.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but if they'd just flush that stupid "double strike capacity" requirement and give everyone a Glock 19 (which is a perfect handgun for the military even if it is a horrible handgun for law enforcement) we could just move onto the next episode.
Of course you'd have to remove Serpa's from military use in order to "soldier proof" the Glock / holster combination.
Yeah, you never know when you'll need to put a few in a stuck filing cabinet drawer, or take on a dangerous empty toner cartridge, maybe apprehend a runaway stapler.
It happens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Going to be interesting to see what pistol they end up with.
From that solicitation it sounds like they already chose Glock. Kinda reminds me of picking a replacement for the current M4, being that it needs to resemble the M4.
...give everyone a Glock 19....we could just move onto the next episode.
Roger That; Move On; Etc.!!!
Most of the people on this forum never make arrests in the first place, so clearly all that they need is a six-shot revolver.
;)
Right, the measure of someone's contributions to society should be based on their number of arrests.
How many of your arrests that led to successful convictions were based on your choice of caliber and weapon?
It happens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
I'm aware of that. My post is almost a verbatim quote from a family member who is a retired 25 year veteran of the FBI.
MountainRaven
07-27-14, 12:55
Right, the measure of someone's contributions to society should be based on their number of arrests.
How many of your arrests that led to successful convictions were based on your choice of caliber and weapon?
Every single arrest that I have ever made in my entire life: All the prosecutor does is tell the judge that I'm packing an El-dub Six-8 PSD, a Smith & Wesson Model 500 as a sidearm backed up by a Glock 17 with 33-round magazines loaded with RIP and that's enough to get a conviction right there. Doesn't even need to go to a jury.
:jester:
Seriously, now, your logic is that of a gun-grabber: FBI agents don't need anything more than a six-shot 38 Special! And if they - as law enforcement officers dealing with extremely dangerous suspects - don't need it, you surely don't, with your job that never even involves arresting anybody. How do you not understand that?
dwhitehorne
07-27-14, 13:12
When the regional SWAT and HRT all switch back to 9mm, I will start to take notice. David
Every single arrest that I have ever made in my entire life: All the prosecutor does is tell the judge that I'm packing an El-dub Six-8 PSD, a Smith & Wesson Model 500 as a sidearm backed up by a Glock 17 with 33-round magazines loaded with RIP and that's enough to get a conviction right there. Doesn't even need to go to a jury.
:jester:
Seriously, now, your logic is that of a gun-grabber: FBI agents don't need anything more than a six-shot 38 Special! And if they - as law enforcement officers dealing with extremely dangerous suspects - don't need it, you surely don't, with your job that never even involves arresting anybody. How do you not understand that?
Where do the words "don"t need" show up in my posts. They can have what they want, they're not spending their money.
Having a retired FBI agent in the family, my post about the file cabinet, etc... comes from him in reference to his carrying a firearm daily.
I'm aware of that. My post is almost a verbatim quote from a family member who is a retired 25 year veteran of the FBI.
Funny story. Years ago a fellow (and senior) agent working out of the NYC field office where my father was stationed during his first 5yr rotation some how managed to set off a flashbang in the office. So your reference about putting rounds into a filing cabinet has some legitimacy, albeit indirect lol.
Also as for the topic at hand growing up the montra I heard over and over again was that only real agents carried sigs. But I think he was a bit jaded on the matter.
MountainRaven
07-27-14, 13:36
Where do the words "don"t need" show up in my posts. They can have what they want, they're not spending their money.
Having a retired FBI agent in the family, my post about the file cabinet, etc... comes from him in reference to his carrying a firearm daily.
Said? No. Strongly implied? Yes.
Outside of Hostage Rescue and the regional SWAT teams, they should have kept their 3" S&W Model 13's.
Yeah, you never know when you'll need to put a few in a stuck filing cabinet drawer, or take on a dangerous empty toner cartridge, maybe apprehend a runaway stapler.
By the logic so implied by your family member as distilled by you - anyone on this forum who works in an office should have a 3" barrel S&W Model 13. And, by implication, should not have a Smith & Wesson 1076 or any other modern enhanced capacity semi-automatic pistol.
Not a good thing to hold to on a forum where the mantra is largely, "Everyone should have an LE6920 and a G19."
My uncle was with the FBI for 25 years, starting in 1965, his first sidearm was a S&W Model 10, his last was a Model 13. He says he never much thought about his gun and it stayed in his desk drawer when not going to and from his office.
but on other forums 9mm are for wienies and a 45 will knock your bad guy down :)
sarcasm of course :)
357 sig :) split the difference and be in the half and half camp :) hahahaha
I say it should be a option so a person could carry what they want :)
27587
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-27-14, 15:45
My uncle was with the FBI for 25 years, starting in 1965, his first sidearm was a S&W Model 10, his last was a Model 13. He says he never much thought about his gun and it stayed in his desk drawer when not going to and from his office.
I appreciate your uncle's service, but his sample of one , especially one occurring 30 years ago, really doesn't add anything to this topic.
I appreciate your uncle's service, but his sample of one , especially one occurring 30 years ago, really doesn't add anything to this topic.
Wasn't their last big shoot out 30 years ago?
Sent from my PG41200 using Tapatalk 2
ramairthree
07-27-14, 16:40
For the .mil,
most with handguns use them so they are "armed" as they work in offices and go to the chow hall and Px on FOBs.
For those that leave the FOB, it is a back up weapon at most.
You don't go out every night.
Maybe one TIC for every ten nights out.
And it is a backup gun.
Yet I don't hear anyone saying they should just get a little revolver. Why say so for LE? It is the primary gun for most.
SomeOtherGuy
07-27-14, 17:12
Bullet placement > bullet caliber
Fearless prediction: regardless, in 10-15 years they will be talking about the need to upgrade to a bigger, better cartridge, because 9mm "is far too weak". After years of debate and expensive testing, they will "upgrade," but most new agents won't shoot well with it, so they'll introduce "upgrade lite" with 101.00% the energy of the 9mm load that preceded the "upgrade". Rinse, lather, repeat.
Bullet placement > bullet caliber
Fearless prediction: regardless, in 10-15 years they will be talking about the need to upgrade to a bigger, better cartridge, because 9mm "is far too weak". After years of debate and expensive testing, they will "upgrade," but most new agents won't shoot well with it, so they'll introduce "upgrade lite" with 101.00% the energy of the 9mm load that preceded the "upgrade". Rinse, lather, repeat.
With any luck there will still be enough ink and paper to print up another $100,000,000... ah, better make it $200,000,000 for inflation, for that replacement program.
I'm aware of that. My post is almost a verbatim quote from a family member who is a retired 25 year veteran of the FBI.
I guess it depends upon exactly what you do at the FBI.
I guess it depends upon exactly what you do at the FBI.
Don't they all chase down guys that make girl suits and cannibal psychiatrists, investigate alien abductions and paranormal oddities...
SomeOtherGuy
07-27-14, 19:57
Don't they all chase down guys that make girl suits and cannibal psychiatrists, investigate alien abductions and paranormal oddities...
When I was in law school they were strongly pursuing accountants and IT guys, with lawyers a not too distant second. With all due respect to the HRT and FBI SWAT guys, most of an FBI agent's job is neither tactical nor sexy.
When I was in law school they were strongly pursuing accountants and IT guys, with lawyers a not too distant second. With all due respect to the HRT and FBI SWAT guys, most of an FBI agent's job is neither tactical nor sexy.
Frustratingly that still hasn't changed, but I digress lol
whats even better are some of the CIA guys :)
now there is a bunch of folks who are interesting and widely diverse to say the least :) hahahaha
When I was in law school they were strongly pursuing accountants and IT guys, with lawyers a not too distant second. With all due respect to the HRT and FBI SWAT guys, most of an FBI agent's job is neither tactical nor sexy.
Don't they all chase down guys that make girl suits and cannibal psychiatrists, investigate alien abductions and paranormal oddities...
Seems they've had about 150 "incidents" between 1993 and 2011.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/us/in-150-shootings-the-fbi-deemed-agents-faultless.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Eurodriver
07-28-14, 05:51
When I was in law school they were strongly pursuing accountants and IT guys, with lawyers a not too distant second. With all due respect to the HRT and FBI SWAT guys, most of an FBI agent's job is neither tactical nor sexy.
This. We got recruited hard in college for special agent positions.
$40,000 a year and they didn't want me because I was white anyway. Whack.
And the search through the universe for the perfect damn pistol goes on. But what the heck--it's only taxpayer money we're blowing here.
Had my Browning High Power out quite a bit lately. The design will be 80 years old next year. Maybe--just maybe--the guns are not the problem, hm?
How are they blowing tax dollars? They have conducted research based upon large numbers of actual shootings, and ballistic testing/research. They realized that the current loadings in 9mm perform the same as 40 and 45. The 9mm is LESS expensive to purchase, it doesn’t wear out the guns/parts so quickly as 40 resulting in spending LESS for gun and part replacements, and it’s easier to shoot well resulting in everyone being more safe because agents can train more (due to reduced ammo cost), they can master a 9mm more quickly/easily, and they will have more confidence as a result. It also provides 2 more rounds per magazine in most weapon systems.
You offer the BHP as a reason for the guns not being the problem? Seriously – I’d suggest you do more reading and less typing. The BHP is a great and classic design. But for mass issue to an agency of 13,000 armed professionals, it would have the same problems the 1911’s have (and they are only issued to SWAT/HRT). A modern design is much more suitable. In fact, HRT has dropped the 1911 for the G22, and may regional SWAT teams have dropped the 1911 for the G21. Fact is, they don’t want a new gun and would be very content to keep issuing Glocks to everyone. But because the current contract is for 40 caliber Glocks, they need a new contract for 9mm handguns. It’s possible Glock could lose… but the reason for the RFP is not because anyone wants a different handgun – just a different caliber.
And there is no “problem” in the first place other than 40S&W being a waste of time/effort/money when it requires more training/practice to master, more money spent on ammo, guns, parts, and doesn’t give a quantifiable advantage to anyone in a gunfight.
This is not surprising. We should all be running 9mm for duty as well. It is interesting to see how things come full circle.
Amen brother! It will continue to trend that way I suspect. Besides being the right thing to do, there are several smaller LE agencies who will do whatever the FBI does. Some will do so because they can’t afford to conduct the testing the FBI performs, and some because “it’s the FBI” which isn’t the best reason, but it works out for the best in this scenario.
agree :) should have said the current 40 or the 9 they choose so the FBI decides to choose so they have a choice of two :) more what I meant :)
But 40 is the problem. If they offer a choice in caliber, 9 and 45 would be much more appropriate.
Think they will ever make a decision and stick with it?
How long must they “stick with it” to satisfy you? They have issued the Glock in 40 caliber to new agents since sometime around 1997. It took several years beyond that to replace all the grandfathered Sigs in 9/45, and S&W’s in 10mm, but it was accomplished.
No. Not as long as they have our free money to use to blow on their new toys. From the 10mm abortion to the .40 S&W caliber Smiths and Glocks after the 86 Miami shootout and now back to the good old 9mm probably shooting some bonded 147gr HP ammo.
Again – it’s not about “new toys” or blowing money. People should be amazed about this decision because the federal govt is doing the right thing this time. They are using common sense and it’s a situation where everybody wins. They are only “going back” to 9mm because the technology has improved it dramatically since they issued it years ago. It’s not like they just got bored with 40 and decided to ditch it for 9mm Hydra-Shoks or some such nonsense.
And I don’t believe any S&W 40 caliber pistols were ever issued/approved for use on duty. There were 10mm’s and some 9mm’s.
When the regional SWAT and HRT all switch back to 9mm, I will start to take notice. David
Not really a good measuring stick. They are issued weapons that are only available in 45ACP (1911 and G21). That said, plenty of those SWAT guys are excited about the new 9mm because they have seen the reports on how well the ammo performs. I also know first-hand several of those personnel who carry a G19 off duty and on duty (when not on a call out). HRT is back to the G22 but that’s because they are mirroring their sister unit in DoD who uses that weapon/caliber.
My uncle was with the FBI for 25 years, starting in 1965, his first sidearm was a S&W Model 10, his last was a Model 13. He says he never much thought about his gun and it stayed in his desk drawer when not going to and from his office.
There are lots of agents who do just that – leave the gun in a drawer, or in their car, or at home… they can get away with it because they probably work national security investigations. I still consider that an epically stupid decision – to be assigned and authorized to carry a sidearm pretty much everywhere you go, and choose not to… I can’t wrap my head around that.
So your uncle was one of the non-gun LEO’s we always reference here on M4C. Yes, most LEO’s are not gun enthusiasts, and they carry whatever is provided for them. They shoot only when they are required to, and many view the gun as a pain in the ass to be responsible for. That said, every agency has those folks, but the FBI is the only one I’m aware of that shoots 4 times a year. Many agencies only require their LEO’s to shoot annually. So given that most LEO’s will not use their weapon to shoot a 2 legged predator, then FBI agents must be operating their sidearms more proficiently as a whole. There are some agencies that do it better such as LAPD. They appear to have a kick ass firearms program from what I’ve read or been told by former members. But most U.S. agencies, large or small, make their officers/deputies shoot one time a year for score.
Your uncle’s experience is vastly different from the agents I know (active and retired) who work violent crimes, public corruption, etc. and many of them have 2 guns on them when on duty. Much will depend upon the violation (some agents arrest their targets by appointment – the person self-surrenders at the office with lawyer in tow). But suggesting that agents only need a 6 shot wheel gun because your uncle left his in a drawer and never needed it is like saying your modern car doesn’t need crumple zones, seat belts, or airbags, because your grandfather didn’t have/use them in his 1940’s model Ford and he never got into an accident.
I am betting they adopt the new HK VP9 9MM pistol loaded with some brand of 147gr bonded HP ammo across the board. They sure wouldn't want to be outclassed or gunned by anyone, as that wouldn't be cool. This time the experts will get it right. I guess we shall see, because I heard that line more than once before.
A few months after the FBI's 10mm fiasco, I talked with a Glock factory technician who had previously worked as an armorer for the FBI at Quantico. He claimed that their boss told the armorers that they could not(as in not allowed)have an opinion about the 10mm round or its designated S&W pistol. With their new adoption, the selection process will be more interesting than the pistol itself.
A few months after the FBI's 10mm fiasco, I talked with a Glock factory technician who had previously worked as an armorer for the FBI at Quantico. He claimed that their boss told the armorers that they could not(as in not allowed)have an opinion about the 10mm round or its designated S&W pistol. With their new adoption, the selection process will be more interesting than the pistol itself.
Yea... you are about 30 years out of date for this thread. The folks at BRF/DSU/FTU are not the same as in that era. Like I posted before - if there is a reason to marvel at this move, it's because they are doing the right thing and applying common sense to the situation.
How are they blowing tax dollars? They have conducted research based upon large numbers of actual shootings, and ballistic testing/research. They realized that the current loadings in 9mm perform the same as 40 and 45. The 9mm is LESS expensive to purchase, it doesn’t wear out the guns/parts so quickly as 40 resulting in spending LESS for gun and part replacements, and it’s easier to shoot well resulting in everyone being more safe because agents can train more (due to reduced ammo cost), they can master a 9mm more quickly/easily, and they will have more confidence as a result. It also provides 2 more rounds per magazine in most weapon systems.
So, by spending $100,000,000,000, they're actually saving us money. Got it. I guess my ex-wife's theory of eating two Snickers at lunch because she was having a salad at dinner sort of makes perfect sense now.
So, by spending $100,000,000,000, they're actually saving us money. Got it. I guess my ex-wife's theory of eating two Snickers at lunch because she was having a salad at dinner sort of makes perfect sense now.
Yes. Because over time the 9mm ammo is less expensive. The 9mm handguns will last longer. The parts inside the 9mm guns will last longer. The agents will shoot more effectively.
It's not like 9mm Glocks cost more than the 40 caliber models. But they will get a longer service life. So you would have them keep buying G22's even though they will have to buy more of them, more often? How is that saving money?
I agree with any agency adopting the 9mm. Also, I wish to restate that the selection process will be more interesting than the pistol itself whether or not any employees are permitted to have opinions. My unsubstantiated opinion is that cost savings will not determine the "new one" unless that particular model is the pistol that they wanted anyway. I'd like to see the S&W M&P selected. Why? To keep it in the country and to bolster Smith's position in the industry. Whatever they choose will be made to shoot. Bang.
.mil has to use FMJ and the Feds want to hire more women.
Makes sense to me.
lawl. so true.
Yeah, you never know when you'll need to put a few in a stuck filing cabinet drawer, or take on a dangerous empty toner cartridge, maybe apprehend a runaway stapler.
Right, the measure of someone's contributions to society should be based on their number of arrests.
How many of your arrests that led to successful convictions were based on your choice of caliber and weapon?
I'm aware of that. My post is almost a verbatim quote from a family member who is a retired 25 year veteran of the FBI.
there are more considerations to caliber and weapons selection than what you've listed. I'm sure the fbi agents that are apprehending runaway staplers have to conceal their firearm in plain clothes. I'm sure there are some female fbi agents in existence. I'm sure these people all have to qualify with their handguns multiple times a year. I'm sure there are certain ammunition contracts already in effect to support these operations. I'm sure also that while these fbi agents are visiting the assistant united states attorney or the district court judge they have to be carrying their handgun, as it is part of the discharge of their duties. while the specific fact of them carrying the firearm does not cause the conviction, it does facilitate the process by which they perform their duties.
My uncle was with the FBI for 25 years, starting in 1965, his first sidearm was a S&W Model 10, his last was a Model 13. He says he never much thought about his gun and it stayed in his desk drawer when not going to and from his office.
there's a right way to do things and there's the other way. by the attitude shown, your uncle probably was not the type of law enforcement that anyone would want to depend on if bullets ever started flying. by the same references, bullets never flew with him around and that's good.
I guess it depends upon exactly what you do at the FBI.
it doesn't matter if it is just the fbi or any law enforcement agency. the math says that most law enforcement (and people) will never have to use their firearm to defend life. that's a good thing. doesn't mean there shouldn't be vigilance. actually vigilance is probably what relegates the percentages to such low numbers. I make that statement only in reference to places that have no rule of law and where one may have to frequently defend life with a firearm or any other instrument of necessity.
wonder if the old ones get sold or destroyed ?
wonder if the old ones get sold or destroyed ?
afghan security forces
MountainRaven
07-28-14, 22:31
No matter what, buying the FBI a new service pistol or pistols has got to be a better expenditure of American tax payer dollars than, well, this (http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-28/first-world-cup-now-aquarium-some-brazilians-say-new-us-backed-project-isnt).
it doesn't matter if it is just the fbi or any law enforcement agency. the math says that most law enforcement (and people) will never have to use their firearm to defend life. that's a good thing. doesn't mean there shouldn't be vigilance. actually vigilance is probably what relegates the percentages to such low numbers. I make that statement only in reference to places that have no rule of law and where one may have to frequently defend life with a firearm or any other instrument of necessity.
I guess what I was going for is it's probably less likely to happen if you are investigating people involved with wire fraud and more likely to happen if you are investigating people who are robbing banks.
No matter what, buying the FBI a new service pistol or pistols has got to be a better expenditure of American tax payer dollars than, well, this (http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-28/first-world-cup-now-aquarium-some-brazilians-say-new-us-backed-project-isnt).
Just when I thought I couldn't be more pissed off. I'd actually prefer we buy a giant stupid aquarium for Gaza, maybe looking at the pretty fishies would calm a few of them down and motivate Israel to try not to hit it. Of course some dickface would probably park a rocket launcher next to it.
Course this is nothing new, I still remember reports in the mid 80s of Pentagon waste and fraud exposing $640 toilet seats, $7,600 coffee makers, $436 hammers and other overpriced spare parts used by the military.
All that stuff costs more now, Steyr.
All that stuff costs more now, Steyr.
It's amazing how even IF they would report that on the news, people would complain and then do NOTHING about it. It's not even newsworthy anymore.
Just when I thought I couldn't be more pissed off. I'd actually prefer we buy a giant stupid aquarium for Gaza, maybe looking at the pretty fishies would calm a few of them down and motivate Israel to try not to hit it. Of course some dickface would probably park a rocket launcher next to it.
Course this is nothing new, I still remember reports in the mid 80s of Pentagon waste and fraud exposing $640 toilet seats, $7,600 coffee makers, $436 hammers and other overpriced spare parts used by the military.
I thought all of those ridiculous expenditures were just a cover for funding Area 51.
Yeah, the other calibers have also benefitted from new bullet technology but you can't undo the mag capacity and recoil factor.Yes you can undo the recoil factor, it's called TRAINING AND COMPETENCY.
Yes you can undo the recoil factor, it's called TRAINING AND COMPETENCY.
Are you implying that the FBI or other agencies don't train enough? They already qual 4 times a year which is 4 times more than most domestic LE agencies. The curriculum at their academy is second to none. They take people who have never touched a firearm and get them shooting at a level most gun owners only dream about seeing. Yes... for most it's the pinnacle of their shooting ability, but there are not many organizations in LE where being a gunfighter is the primary mission. For those that are, they get more trigger/range time. Agents are investigators first, and all other tasks fall below that.
And while a shooter CAN master the 40S&W... there is no good reason to do so. The move to 9mm has multiple benefits we've already established in this thread. But since terminal ballistics are almost identical (or in some cases favor the 9), putting up with a handgun that is more challenging to master is pure stupidity. However well you shoot a G22, you can shoot a G17 better/faster. Why waste the time, money, and resources on making agents more proficient with 40 caliber when there is no advantage to carrying 40 caliber??
ForTehNguyen
10-01-14, 20:37
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/26/fbi-training-division-justifies-9mm-caliber-selection/
“May 6, 2014
FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA
Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners
Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades
Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore
Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best
In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident
Handgun stopping power is simply a myth
The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident
Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)
9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)
The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)
There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers
My friend was in the FBI and according to him, since the 1980s...
Standard issue for FBI agents...
1980 = .357Magnum S&W Model 13 FBI (3")
1991 = 10x25mm S&W Model 1076
1993 = 9x19mm SIG P-226 or SIG P-228 (agent choice)
1997 = .40S&W Glock 22 or 23 (agent choice)
2010 = .40S&W Glock 23
Personally owned firearms...
Firearms Training Unit must examine and approve/authorize it, in order to carry on or off duty.
platoonDaddy
10-09-14, 07:05
The great caliber debate is more of a myth than anything. What you shoot well with is the best caliber for you. But, now we have a whole slew of fantastic scientific evidence from the FBI ballistic labs that helps solidify and justify their recent move to the 9mm caliber.
Earlier this year is when the FBI announced their return to the 9mm after finding that 40S&W rounds were causing too much excessive wear to their firearms.
First reported by looserounds.com, this justification below is worth the read. It may change your mind once and for all, and change what you think you may know about the 9mm cartridge.
After reading below, let us know if this changes your mind about what you will carry in the future.
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/
Yes you can undo the recoil factor, it's called TRAINING AND COMPETENCY.
If a person trains to the level that is required to "master" the recoil of a sharper recoiling round, how do you think they'll handle the lesser recoiling round? I would submit to you that they'll be that much better with the lesser recoiling round.
If a person trains to the level that is required to "master" the recoil of a sharper recoiling round, how do you think they'll handle the lesser recoiling round? I would submit to you that they'll be that much better with the lesser recoiling round.
It worked out that way for me. My first firearms were a 12 guage and a semi auto 308. When I got into ar's the recoil was like a toy. Recoil on an AR is non existent to me. YMMV.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
For a short time, recently, agents were switched from the .40 to the 9mm at Quantico if they were not able to qualify consistently. Then the firearms instructors started telling us that they were switching over, with new classes earlier this year (I believe) being the first to be issued all 9s. I think that for now their uniformed police are staying with the .40 although we've been able to carry 9s as a POW (personally owned weapon) since I came on back in '06.
Love the acronyms by the way. We used to joke with the bomb dogs' handlers when they had their other dogs around. You know, their PODs (personally owned dogs).
platoonDaddy
10-09-14, 23:07
For a short time, recently, agents were switched from the .40 to the 9mm at Quantico if they were not able to qualify consistently. Then the firearms instructors started telling us that they were switching over, with new classes earlier this year (I believe) being the first to be issued all 9s. I think that for now their uniformed police are staying with the .40 although we've been able to carry 9s as a POW (personally owned weapon) since I came on back in '06.
Love the acronyms by the way. We used to joke with the bomb dogs' handlers when they had their other dogs around. You know, their PODs (personally owned dogs).
Since you are in the inside, is it true the 40S&W rounds were causing too much excessive wear and if so how?
The great caliber debate is more of a myth than anything. What you shoot well with is the best caliber for you. But, now we have a whole slew of fantastic scientific evidence from the FBI ballistic labs that helps solidify and justify their recent move to the 9mm caliber.
Earlier this year is when the FBI announced their return to the 9mm after finding that 40S&W rounds were causing too much excessive wear to their firearms.
First reported by looserounds.com, this justification below is worth the read. It may change your mind once and for all, and change what you think you may know about the 9mm cartridge.
After reading below, let us know if this changes your mind about what you will carry in the future.
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/ (http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/)
The comments section under the article you linked was hilarious. Whether you agreed or disagreed with the subject of the article, it's really sad reading comprehension is severely lacking with some of the commentators. It is my perception that reading comprehension in this country is getting worse by the day, regardless of topic.
In the larger scheme of things, so what? If in LE (I was) you have some choices if you are lucky. If your masters choose badly, you live with it or go somewhere else if you care that much. Life isn't fair and most of it happens at a third grade level.
"I have other names (guns) if you are interested".
It is my perception that reading comprehension in this country is getting worse by the day, regardless of topic.
I'm not sure if it's that, or if the internet age has enabled those with the least comprehension to be heard by the masses.
Since you are in the inside, is it true the 40S&W rounds were causing too much excessive wear and if so how?
We were having issues with the pins that are visible just above the trigger. At each quarterly qualifying the instructors would inspect each agent/officer's weapon and they showed us what to look for when we were shooting on our own. You can see the pins start to work their way out on one side or the other and when the pistol is apart, you can see cracks in the pin when looking down from the top with good lighting or a flashlight. It just looked like a thin line on mine but when I moved it it came right apart. Cannot think of the proper name of these pins.
I've had it happen twice and had the slide return spring replaced earlier than most. I assume it's because I shoot more than most, stopping at a local range to shoot 100-150 rounds a week as I don't feel comfortable only shooting quarterly. Would love to shoot more but can't get rounds like we could in the past.
Never had any issue when shooting the Speer Gold Dot, 165 grainers
Edited to add: I had to look up the parts: locking block pin and trigger pin were the ones that we had to inspect. I believe it was the locking block pin that I saw break most.
Just called one of the F/A instructors and he verified it was the locking block pin that was the vast majority of the failures noted.
We were having issues with the pins that are visible just above the trigger.
Edited to add: I had to look up the parts: locking block pin and trigger pin were the ones that we had to inspect. I believe it was the locking block pin that I saw break most.
Interesting. Thanks for the info!
platoonDaddy
10-10-14, 12:58
Just called one of the F/A instructors and he verified it was the locking block pin that was the vast majority of the failures noted.
Glocks? If so, G22 or G23?
Dang, never heard of a locking block pin cracking.
Edit: great info, thanks for sharing.
I saw mostly on the 22 with the "new" 180 grain winchester round
platoonDaddy
10-10-14, 17:18
I saw mostly on the 22 with the "new" 180 grain winchester round
Dang, that is very interesting.
Again thank you for your observation and experience.
Just as an update, I'm taking our "officer survival school" this week and noticed that the firearms guys at West Point have gone through their stock of the Speer Gold Dots in 165 grain that we've had around for years and have been issuing the same but in 180 grain now. Said that they've had it for about a year now.
Interesting move, I didnt think to ask if it's as hot a load as the Winchesters that were causing us the issues previously.
Here's a thread I started about six months ago when I had several parts in my G23 break. Locking block pin was one of them.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151349-R-I-P-Glock-23-gonna-miss-you&highlight=
platoonDaddy
12-15-14, 08:02
UPDATE: There have been some questions about the origin of this FBI statement. As the word of the FBI’s solicitation for 9mm handguns became public, they were hit with a flood of questions from state and local agencies, many who carry .40, about the change. This statement was prepared the FBI Training Division to answer those questions and was intended for dissemination to law enforcement agencies. It was not classified Law Enforcement Sensitive and has spread to civilians. I have confirmed its origin and feel that its release poses no threat to law enforcement while providing enlightening science, paid for by taxpayer dollars, to the public.
remainder of the article: http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/
Digital_Damage
12-15-14, 09:16
Here's a thread I started about six months ago when I had several parts in my G23 break. Locking block pin was one of them.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?151349-R-I-P-Glock-23-gonna-miss-you&highlight=
I had the trigger pin and locking block break. Replaced them with zev and have not had the issue since.
UPDATE: There have been some questions about the origin of this FBI statement. As the word of the FBI’s solicitation for 9mm handguns became public, they were hit with a flood of questions from state and local agencies, many who carry .40, about the change. This statement was prepared the FBI Training Division to answer those questions and was intended for dissemination to law enforcement agencies. It was not classified Law Enforcement Sensitive and has spread to civilians. I have confirmed its origin and feel that its release poses no threat to law enforcement while providing enlightening science, paid for by taxpayer dollars, to the public.
remainder of the article: http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/
I recently switched to a Glock 17 for my duty weapon. Prior to that was a Glock 21c and a Glock 22. I find I shoot the 9mm noticeably better than the 40 or 45. While in rifle training we were doing movement transition drills at night. Switching shoulders on the move and transitioning to handgun. I didnt have a weapon mounted light on my handgun so I had to fire it one handed while my weak hand was holding my rifle and using its light. I was pleasantly surprised that I not only had 100 percent hit ratio but that they were all solid vital zone hits as well.
platoonDaddy
12-15-14, 11:08
I recently switched to a Glock 17 for my duty weapon. Prior to that was a Glock 21c and a Glock 22. I find I shoot the 9mm noticeably better than the 40 or 45. While in rifle training we were doing movement transition drills at night. Switching shoulders on the move and transitioning to handgun. I didnt have a weapon mounted light on my handgun so I had to fire it one handed while my weak hand was holding my rifle and using its light. I was pleasantly surprised that I not only had 100 percent hit ratio but that they were all solid vital zone hits as well.
I am Visualizing you shooting G17 while holding rifle in weak-hand to shine light and scoring hits in the vital zone. For sure that is some awesoming shooting.
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